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Title: Rapture of the Church
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Published: Jul 14, 2015
Author: Don
Post Date: 2015-07-14 23:19:04 by Don
Keywords: None
Views: 14504
Comments: 65
Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church, or even know just what the Church is. There are many differing opinions on all phases of the End Times. The only valid opinions come from what we read in the Holy Bible. I will post an article tomorrow that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. More on that tomorrow.
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#25. To: hondo68, Sockratease (#14)
Sockratease named that tune in two notes, dead sober. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Yeah, that's incriminating, isn't it? Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians,
The word means what it means even within the Koine Greek. "Caught up." It was 'caught up' then and even now. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Hi yukon how's the weather in Alaska or are you in Canada now? For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. (Matthew 16:25) Many Christians are looking forward to the return of Christ, which will, indeed, be a glorious event. However, the time just preceding the end will not be pleasant for Christians. That has pretty much been my belief as well - there will be no pre-Trib rapture. My belief is that it will be mid-Tribulation, at the end of the first 3 1/2 period immediatedly before the anti-christ arises to full power. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much LOL, it ain't Bob. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
You have a computer and access to all weather reports worldwide, don't you? If you care, research it. Or are you just another egotistical, self-centered, forum troll?
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence? LOL, it ain't Bob. Perhaps but it seems that he's cut from the same cloth. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You have a computer and access to all weather reports worldwide, don't you? If you care, research it. Or are you just another egotistical, self-centered, forum troll? LMAO. Touchy, touchy, touchy we are. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Nope, just tired of the personal questions and allegations. Do you condone such behavior?
Good verses, but does it fit the context of the discussion? Thank you for the welcome! Until the 13th of this month I had never heard of the Liberty's Flame website or any of the people posting comments on it. So, no Kluane and I are not friends or companions. On Monday of this week I accidentally came across knowledge of this website when searching out something else on the web. I came over here that same day started to read some articles and posts and found them interesting enough to join myself and begin to comment. Don made a statement about him doing something the next day and I thought it would be a good idea to begin to bring up the truth of God that the next day is not necessarily coming on this planet for any of us including Don. So, yes I do believe that in God's view the parts of James 4:13,14 that I quoted do fit the context of the discussion.
As I just told redleghunter in my last comment posted, I had never heard of this website until Monday of this week and I do not not know anyone posting on this website. As for your "Coincidence?", SOSO the answer to your question is yes.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/cozby_rapture1.htm It seems that some people believed that Christians who died before Christ’s return would somehow miss out on that glorious event. St. Paul seeks to calm their fears (vs. 13). He points out that as Christ returned from the dead at His Resurrection, so also, at the end of time, His followers who have died in the interim will be restored through resurrection (vs. 14). At the Second Coming, the Christian dead will be raised (vs. 16). Then they and the faithful who are still alive will be caught up into the clouds to welcome Christ as He descends (verses 15,17). Paul then discusses other matters relating to the Second Coming, beginning with the date it will occur. When we look at verse 17 in context, it is easy to see that is does not really support the doctrine of the Rapture. There is no reference to a Great Tribulation or to any other events preceding Christ’s Return. The verse refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Coming. The course of events St. Paul presents is simple and straight-forward. At the time of the Second Coming, the dead will be raised, and all the faithful (the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured) will ascend to be with Him as He comes down. This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers who see the verse as referring to the last days. Let us summarize what we have found so far. St. Paul does speak of a sort of rapture, in the sense of a carrying up into the sky of the righteous at the time of the Second Coming. The Fathers generally agree on that. But St. Paul and the Fathers see this as an event which accompanies Christ’s return and immediately precedes the Judgment and the establishment of the Kingdom. The Rapture which Darby and Scofield taught and which Lindsey, Walvoord, and others still teach, is different from that. They talk about it as a separate happening, part of a decades long program of events leading up to Christ’s Coming. The dispensationalists see the Rapture as the disappearance of the faithful from the earth before the Great Tribulation and many years before the Judgment. This is foreign to the Apostle and to the Tradition. St. Paul mentions no period of affliction and persecution following the Rapture.
Kluane, thanks for the warning! Real Christians have two natures one of which can do real damage to the cause of Christ. But self-professed Christians have only one nature and if they die that way they will have an eternity of regret.
Don I also believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Below is the link for a short 15 minute video that helps clear up somethings involving the Rapture: Rapture vs Second Coming, Post-Trib Problems, Premillennialism
I don't mind personal questions that I don't have to answer if I do not wish. I can't abide unwarrented, unfounded allegations, or things such as false witness or putting words into my mouth or a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Fair enough. But Celeste doesn't have a sense of humor either:) потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Would you prefer that Bob and I tell you funny dirty stories? O-) (Smiley after Smoking a Banana-http://cool-smileys.com/text-emoticons-part2)
If that's your thing please keep it to yourself. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I think what you posted is a good explanation and no doubt has historical support with the early fathers. But not unanimous support as some differed from others. The important fact of the early church theologians was they did not speculate on matters not certain in scriptures. I noticed Irenaeus treat end times in such a way in Against Heresies book 5. Now on what I quoted from your piece above...If one continues to read 1 THESSALONIANS after the mention of caught up, there is discussion of end times. Such that a second letter was written, 2 Thessalonians detailing more. My personal observations is that each generation has there own theories on how things will unfold with yet to be fulfilled prophecy. The church in the early NT period were convinced, at first, that Christ would come again in their life time. In the 2nd century Irenaeus cautioned his generation of speculating the second coming was in their generation. The second Jewish revolt or Bar Kokhba revolt, convinced many of this. Later the Muslims were seen as the evil empire, and later the Turks. Then the Germans, and Russians. The list continues. What is different today and all the other eras? Not until 1948 was Israel recognized as a nation by the world. That does lend to some specific prophecies. The gathering and "sorting out" of Israel. Now before we go off on tangents of Zionism, I am not claiming the current government of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but observe they have been gathering for some time. Yet to be "sorted out." And the sorting out could be Jews coming to Christ as Lord and Savior in significant numbers. Now that would be a miracle. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
I have read a bit on the mid trib theory. Can you expand on it? FWIR, it involves the "wrath" language used in the NT and OT. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
The early Church fathers long speculated the antichrist will be Jewish like Jesus was. And judging as to how nuclear powered America worships Israel, maybe they were onto something.....
FWIR, it involves the "wrath" language used in the NT and OT. Perhaps this graphic will explain it better. You are correct that it involves both the wrath of God and of Satan. I suppose according to this timeline, my belief is that the Rapture will occur at the mid point of the 7-year tribulation, but during the pre-wrath of Satan. I honestly believe that we will go through some sort of tribulation - I just don't see Christians being raptured before they are tested. I also think that the Mark of the Beast will be implemented during that same time and Christians will have to make a choice to take it or not. Those who do, of course will lose their salvation. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much This is one of those deep, theological discussions that I generally leave to my son - an ordained pastor in one of the evangelical denominations of the Wesleyan-Arminian variety. As for me - when I'm asked "are you Pre, Mid or Post Trib?" my response is "I'm Pan-Trib" It'll all "pan-out" in the end. (as long as we don't hear the words "Depart from Me, I never knew you", that is) But with that said, I do have an observation: I wonder if we as Christians are sometimes "USA centric". By that I mean - literally millions of fellow believers around the world are being persecuted right now. Deny Christ or Die! Beheadings. Being forced to convert - moving from your homeland. These things may come to the US, but for these folks they're suffering now. Are they not going through a form of tribulation? Just a thought.
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ ess025.htm
Persecutions have been happening for the last two thousand years.
From the article at the link above that you gave me: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory, however, is a menacing doctrine that perverts the plain language of the text of the New Testament." My quote above from that article is enough for me to know that the article is nonsense. If any one wants to see how easily what is stated in that article is refuted, (Lord willing) I suggest they read the article then watch the short 15 minute video that I provided a link to in the #40 comment above in this thread. On the scale of 1 to 10 of things I have seen attempting to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture I give it a 1.
I just gave you a link. Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
That's a good chart depicting the various views. Here's the sticking point in the Wrath discussion: Revelation 6: 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” For the Wrath theory to hold, then the rapture would have to be just before, during or immediately following the 6th seal. Is the 6th seal at the 3.5 year mark when considering the full NT and OT prophecies? I don't think it is at that point. But there is a lot of pain and suffering and death prior to the 6th seal with the trumpet and bowl judgements much worse following. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Actually no. The translating of the church at some point during the tribulation was mentioned by Irenaeus in Against Heresies Book V chapter 29. I've posted that reference to you several times in the past and it was ignored. I also posted Pseudo Epherem which speaks of a pre tribulation translation of the church. That source cannot be attributed to an exact person, however reflected the views of some during the 4th century. So I disagree that this is some 19th century machination. Perhaps it was a revival of an ancient minority view. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
What Rupture are you talking about? The thread is dealing with the Rapture. If by Rupture you actually meant Rapture you are right for it was not Darby's invention but you are wrong that it originated with a Scottish woman's vision. It is obvious that you have not watched the short 15 minute video that I gave a link to in #40 in this thread. Do you believe there is a Rapture and if so what position do you have on it pre, mid, post or pan?
Margaret Macdonald:
Margaret McDonald: Neither the Rapture doctrine nor the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald or John Nelson Darby. I may have a lot more to say on this subject depending on how you answer this question: Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?
No. More, I think it is a made up doctrine "started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald and John Nelson Darby"
A Pole's answer above was triggered by my question to him in #58 of this thread: "Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?" A Pole's answer is totally incorrect. The Doctrine of the Rapture far preceded who he thinks introduced it. That Doctrine can be traced back to early centuries long before the time of McDonald and Darby in the 19th century. Below you will find a link for a 15 page pdf file which illustrates in great detail various people who indicated the Rapture long before McDonald and Darby existed. The pdf file at that link also sheds some interesting well balanced light on the dispute between two Rapture positions: Pre-Tribulation vs Mid-Tribulation as well as showing some other interesting things concerning the Rapture. You can read the pdf file at the link's web page or you can download the file from that web page for later study or repeated studies.
I must be getting tired and it is time to quit soon for I forgot to paste the link referred to in my last comment in this thread. I will post it in my next comment in this thread.
AT THE LAST TRUMP....Seventh trump, the very last one.
Yeah, some have tried to tie that in with the Feast of the Trumphets, the last day of the Festival.
Sorry, this document is weak and grasping at straws. Either way, please do not dump on me large pdf documents. You can read them yourself to bring one or two best points. It is obvious that Rapture Doctrine was formed in XIX century - you have countless proofs for that. Same way as Gettysburg Address.
That's the trendy new wave theory. It took the Darby clan 1800 years of heavy drinking and cross eyed Bible gazing to come up with that.
#26. To: redleghunter, Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Cleste (#23)
Well welcome to LF! I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did.
#27. To: redleghunter, Sockratease (#23)
I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did.
#28. To: Pericles (#24)
The Greek word appears. Funny how Greeks spent 2,000 years not knowing what the word meant until some 19th century British Protestant figured it out via a translated Bible.
#29. To: Kluane (#27)
Yeah, that's incriminating, isn't it? Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians,
#30. To: hondo68 (#17)
for what you believe, you will deny your faith when threatened with death. Be aware of what Jesus said about those who seek to save their lives:
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#31. To: SOSO (#26)
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence?
#32. To: redleghunter (#29)
#33. To: redleghunter, Sockratease, Bob Celeste (#31)
#34. To: Kluane, redleghunter (#32)
#35. To: SOSO (#34)
LMAO. Touchy, touchy, touchy we are.
#36. To: redleghunter (#23)
Well welcome to LF! I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did. Are you friends or companions?
#37. To: SOSO, liberator, Don, Bob Cleste (#26)
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence?
#38. To: redleghunter (#28)
(Edited)
The word means what it means even within the Koine Greek. "Caught up." It was 'caught up' then and even now.
#39. To: Kluane (#27)
Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians
#40. To: Don (#0)
Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church, or even know just what the Church is. There are many differing opinions on all phases of the End Times. The only valid opinions come from what we read in the Holy Bible. I will post an article...that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
#41. To: Kluane (#35)
Nope, just tired of the personal questions and allegations. Do you condone such behavior?
#42. To: Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#37)
As I just told redleghunter in my last comment posted, I had never heard of this website until Monday of this week and I do not not know anyone posting on this website. As for your "Coincidence?", SOSO the answer to your question is yes.
#43. To: SOSO, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#42)
Fair enough. But Celeste doesn't have a sense of humor either:)
#44. To: Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#43)
Smiley after Smoking a Banana
#45. To: Pericles, Don, liberator (#38)
St. Paul mentions no period of affliction and persecution following the Rapture.
#46. To: Deckard (#30)
My belief is that it will be mid-Tribulation, at the end of the first 3 1/2 period immediatedly before the anti-christ arises to full power.
#47. To: redleghunter (#45)
(Edited)
ow before we go off on tangents of Zionism, I am not claiming the current government of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but observe they have been gathering for some time. Yet to be "sorted out." And the sorting out could be Jews coming to Christ as Lord and Savior in significant numbers. Now that would be a miracle.
#48. To: redleghunter (#46)
(Edited)
I have read a bit on the mid trib theory. Can you expand on it?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#49. To: Don (#0)
Rapture of the Church
#50. To: Sockratease (#9)
#51. To: Rufus T Firefly (#49)
#52. To: A Pole, All (#50)
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ ess025.htm
#53. To: Sockratease (#52)
On the scale of 1 to 10 of things I have seen attempting to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture I give it a 1.
#54. To: Deckard, Don, liberator (#48)
#55. To: A Pole (#53)
Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
#56. To: A Pole (#53)
Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
#57. To: Sockratease (#56)
it originated with a Scottish woman's vision
#58. To: A Pole, All (#57)
it originated with a Scottish woman's vision
#59. To: Sockratease (#58)
Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?
#60. To: A Pole, All (#59)
No. More, I think it is a made up doctrine "started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald and John Nelson Darby"
#61. To: A Pole, All (#60)
#62. To: A Pole, All (#61)
Here is the link promised in #60 in this thread and for the purpose stated in that comment but which I forgot to give in that comment:
#63. To: Don (#10)
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
#64. To: jeremiad (#63)
#65. To: Sockratease (#62)
A HISTORY OF PRE-DARBY RAPTURE ADVOCATES
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