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Title: Greece news live: Greeks capitulate to austerity and external monitoring after 17 hours of late night talks end in 'a-Greek-ment'
Source: UK Telegraph
URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ ... hours-of-late-night-talks.html
Published: Jul 13, 2015
Author: Mehreen Khan and Ben Wright
Post Date: 2015-07-13 07:47:34 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 2757
Comments: 63

Analysis and reaction of the deal as Greek agreement is reached at last following 17 hours of tense negotiations among eurozone leaders and ministers

Latest 12.32 Why the Greeks have blinked

My colleague Szu Chan has laid out what exactly creditors are demanding from the Greeks. Key points below:

IMF involvement

PM Tsipras said he didn't want the Fund to be involved in a new rescue after their involvement is set to end in March 2016. However, any new rescue loan from the ESM requires legal involvement from the Fund. Thus: "Greece will request continued IMF support (monitoring and financing) from March 2016."

Sequestration of assets

This is a new demand that emerged from finance ministers yesterday. It would involve €50bn of Greek assets placed in a private fund and used to pay off their debts.

Mr Tsipras objected to it being placed in Luxembourg or controlled by a German state-owned bank. The fund will now be managed by the Greeks. Some of the money will also be used for growth initiatives and to recapitalise Greek banks. The initial purpose of the fund was solely to pay down their loans.

Debt relief

This one's the rub. Greeks want a clear promise to alleviate their debt burden as part of any new rescue. Last night's statement provides only a commitment to think about it should the Greeks manage to first get through all the legislative hurdles they face by Wednesday. The text reads: "the Eurogroup stands ready to consider, if necessary, possible additional measures (possible longer grace and payment periods) aiming at ensuring that gross financing needs remain at a sustainable level."

12.04 Tsipras: we avoided plan for "financial suffocation"

The Greek PM has this morning defended last night's basis for an agreement, arguing that he managed to resist measures that would have led to a collapse of the banking system.

"We found ourselves before difficult decisions, tough dilemmas. We took the responsibility of the decision in order to avert the implementation of the more extreme aims (of) the more extreme conservative circles in the European Union."

He says Greece managed to resist a request that Greece transfer public assets abroad as well as a "plan of financial suffocation and the collapse of the banking system," which he said had been "planned down to its last detail recently" and had already started to be implemented.

The PM is due to meet with his junior coalition partner and defence minister later this evening.

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#1. To: cranky (#0)

This is Russia's moment, should Russia choose to seize it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   8:39:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: cranky (#0)

What is the main source of Greece's economy, besides borrowing money?

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-07-13   8:46:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Stoner (#2)

What is the main source of Greece's economy, besides borrowing money?

Probably tourism.

The outer islands had, up until this agreement, enjoyed some serious vat-free import exemptions, which allowed them to be be very competitive for tourist money.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   10:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

This is Russia's moment, should Russia choose to seize it.

Greece is on he hook for some 315 billion euros (down from 360 euros in 2012).

I'm note sure Putin has the money to throw at Greece especially since it would never be repaid.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   10:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: cranky, Vicomte13 (#4)

Greece is on he hook for some 315 billion euros (down from 360 euros in 2012).

Per pagan, Jewish, Christian and Muslim law, Greece is only on the hook for the principal not the interest on the loan. Interest was viewed as evil by every religion I have ever studied.

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   11:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: cranky (#4)

Greece is on the hook for nothing with a proper Russia intervention.

Russian intervention would be simple: back the drachma, going forward, and assist the Greek economy with direct transfers of gas and oil for a time.

In exchange, the Russian Navy and Air Force would obtain permanent basing rights in Crete and elsewhere.

The Greeks would default on their foreign debt and Euro debt and never pay it. Wipe it off the books and go forward, under the drachma, paying only present expenses.

They would still have to reform, but their reforms would be going-forward reforms, unhindered by debt.

In other words: with Russian assistance they can declare a Jubilee and CANCEL their debt, not PAY it. The Russian backing will provide the energy security and the currency underpinning for a going-forward drachma. Draw a line under the past and move forward.

Russian basing in Greece would be a grand strategic coup for the Russians, and the backing for the drachma GOING FORWARD would provide the Greeks the means to do just that: go forward.

The outstanding debt would never be repaid. Greece would default on it for good. Eventually the foreigners would write it off as a bad debt, and life would go on.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   11:26:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#6)

Russian intervention would be simple: back the drachma, going forward, and assist the Greek economy with direct transfers of gas and oil for a time.

Then, obviously, Putin knows that and that is what will happen.

But I'll be surprised if it does.

I'm not sure the Greek parliament will go along with the new terms especially the 50 billion asset sale but if they don't then we will see if the Ruskies are as financially and politically astute as you.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   11:36:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13, All (#1)

This is Russia's moment, should Russia choose to seize it.

Hope it does. Let Russia carry as much dead weight as possible. Let's see how much the Greeks will love communism a la Bear style.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-07-13   12:33:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Pericles, cranky, Vicomte13, redleghunter (#5)

Interest was viewed as evil by every religion I have ever studied.

Well then, try borrowing money from the Vatican.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-07-13   12:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Pericles (#5)

Greece is only on the hook for the principal not the interest on the loan.

Lol, chyeah -- THAT'LL work as an army EU accountants march into every Grecian Bank and confiscate the Deed and ownership of...the ENTIRE country.

Greece is now the EU's slave-state :-( This is what happens when you surrender your sovereignty and adopt socialism. Time to Pay the Piper.

Liberator  posted on  2015-07-13   12:41:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Pericles (#5)

Interest was viewed as evil by every religion I have ever studied.

Really?

I thought just usury.

But I've never made a study of the question.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   12:54:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: SOSO, Pericles, APole, cranky, Vicomte13, redleghunter (#9)

(Pericles: "Interest was viewed as evil by every religion I have ever studied.")

Well then, try borrowing money from the Vatican.

Oh, that's gonna leave a mark.

Yes, maybe that famous Marxist humanitarian and anti-capitalist lecturer -- Pope Franko -- will authorize the HUGE Vatican vault to the Vatican Bank and "kinda, sorta help spread the wealth around." The vast Vatican holdings of gazillions in unknown massive quantities of cash, baubles, art, and real estate are just sitting there...collecting interest and appreciating in this capitalist world. Fancy that! So let's all expect that Greece (as well as the rest of the world's poor and poverty-stricken people) will be able to dine their next meal (instead of catching it with a fly-swatter or mouse-trap.)

We can expect this because this lecturing, chastising Pope (as "Vicar of Christ") is compelled to emulate the charity and generosity Christ, while the Vatican is the so-called "center of "Christ's Church"...

NOT. NOT. NOT.

Liberator  posted on  2015-07-13   13:00:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Liberator (#12)

will authorize the HUGE Vatican vault to the Vatican Bank

To what?

To bail out the banksters?

Or just the Greek bank(s)?

The only way to get the money to the Greek people is through the Greek government.

The Greek people are going to see very little of any money that the government gets its hands on, imho.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   13:10:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Liberator (#10)

Greece is now the EU's slave-state :-( This is what happens when you surrender your sovereignty and adopt socialism. Time to Pay the Piper.

Greece could just not pay it back. Hard to feel sorry for the EU nations, they stiffed our great-grandparents for WW1 debts they had contracted nearly 100 years ago. Sort of like the case with Greece today, the initial bad loans were made by private banks, and then the government stepped to put the taxpayer of the hook for the banks poor lending practices.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-07-13   13:11:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: cranky (#11)

Interest was viewed as evil by every religion I have ever studied.

Really?

I thought just usury.

But I've never made a study of the question.

Same thing. People these days assume usury is "HIGH" interest rates. It was all interests rates. Usury is just an old fashioned word for interest which probably fell out of favor and replaced with the less objectionable "interest".

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   13:18:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Pericles (#15)

Same thing. People these days assume usury is "HIGH" interest rates. It was all interests rates. Usury is just an old fashioned word for interest which probably fell out of favor and replaced with the less objectionable "interest".

That is contrary to what I was taught.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   13:20:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Liberator (#12)

Yes, maybe that famous Marxist humanitarian and anti-capitalist lecturer -- Pope Franko -- will authorize the HUGE Vatican vault to the Vatican Bank and "kinda, sorta help spread the wealth around." The vast Vatican holdings of gazillions in unknown massive quantities of cash, baubles, art, and real estate are just sitting there...collecting interest and appreciating in this capitalist world.

Good idea, and very fitting since the bulk of the wealth came from slave labor in the Americas. The Marxist Pope can return the fruits of labor stolen under the encomienda system to the descendants of those who performed the forced labor. The Pope's followers love to point out the speck of sawdust in Protestant eyes (although strangely silent on the subject of Congregationalist slave ship owners) while having a huge log in their own eye, the Vatican's store of stolen wealth resulting from slave labor.

Followers of Francis, do not be like the Pharisees boasting in the temple of how righteous they were. Don't talk the talk, walk the walk. Return your Church's stolen wealth to those it was stolen from.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-07-13   13:24:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: cranky, Deckard, nativist nationalist (#13)

("...will authorize the HUGE Vatican vault to the Vatican Bank")

To what?

To bail out the banksters?

Or just the Greek bank(s)?

The only way to get the money to the Greek people is through the Greek government.

The Greek people are going to see very little of any money that the government gets its hands on, imho.

I was being facetious.

Not a single Vatican cent will leave the Vatican Bank vault. The Vatican Bank is been history's longest, and biggest money laundering operation. This operation represents part of the "Banksters" and One World Government scheme themselves.

I believe you're right -- the Greek people will see little of its savings ever again. Or will be told "it will take some time," then be offered a small token "settlement."

The same scenario I fear will recur all over the world soon in the coming years. The elites' Pyramid Scheme is about to crash. Only the elites will be given ample heads ups.

Hey -- a found a highlight film clip of our gubmint and elites "loving" us. Maybe a Jade Helm 15 exercise fantasy:

Liberator  posted on  2015-07-13   13:37:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: cranky (#16)

Same thing. People these days assume usury is "HIGH" interest rates. It was all interests rates. Usury is just an old fashioned word for interest which probably fell out of favor and replaced with the less objectionable "interest".

That is contrary to what I was taught.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/usury/

Usury [N] [S]

the sum paid for the use of money, hence interest; not, as in the modern sense, exorbitant interest. The Jews were forbidden to exact usury ( Leviticus 25:36 Leviticus 25:37 ), only, however, in their dealings with each other ( Deuteronomy 23:19 Deuteronomy 23:20 ). The violation of this law was viewed as a great crime ( Psalms 15:5 ; Proverbs 28:8 ; Jeremiah 15:10 ). After the Return, and later, this law was much neglected ( Nehemiah 5:7 Nehemiah 5:10 ).

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   13:45:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: nativist nationalist (#14)

Greece could just not pay it back.

And knew it wouldn't.

Hard to feel sorry for the EU nations, they stiffed our great-grandparents for WW1 debts they had contracted nearly 100 years ago. Sort of like the case with Greece today, the initial bad loans were made by private banks, and then the government stepped to put the taxpayer of the hook for the banks poor lending practices.

Good analogy. All of what's gone down then as well as now is calculated. "Too-big-to-fail" was cute little ditty that excused the biggest wealth transfer and theft in human history. TOTALLY unauthorized and unconstitutional. Nothing is stopping the elites from this perpetual blank check written from OUR accounts. NOTHING is safe from their confiscation; Not 401ks, pensions, stocks, bonds, safety deposit boxes.

We're all getting set up for the Final Chapter. Greece was the Canary in the Coal Mine (lol, a different one.)

Liberator  posted on  2015-07-13   13:47:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Pericles (#19)

the sum paid for the use of money, hence interest

Seems counter-intuitive.

Who would assume the risk of lending money without any hope of return?

I seem to recall a distinction between legal interest and usury, that distinction being the rate demanded by the lender.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   14:15:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: nativist nationalist, redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#17) (Edited)

The Marxist Pope can return the fruits of labor stolen under the encomienda system to the descendants of those who performed the forced labor.

The Pope's followers love to point out the speck of sawdust in Protestant eyes (although strangely silent on the subject of Congregationalist slave ship owners) while having a huge log in their own eye, the Vatican's store of stolen wealth resulting from slave labor.

But...but...the Vatican's vast and centuries accrued wealth as a result of "slave" labor, Indulgences, and imposed "Soul Taxes" have all merely been considered "donations" to God Himself, saving souls, and spreading the Gospel.

Protestants are no better than heathens.

OH WAIT.

Liberator  posted on  2015-07-13   14:21:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Liberator (#22)

But...but...the Vatican's vast and centuries accrued wealth as a result of "slave" labor, Indulgences, and imposed "Soul Taxes" have all merely been considered "donations" to God Himself, saving souls, and spreading the Gospel.

It almost seems like a form of rent seeking. I recall that when Christ transpired upon the cross the curtain in the temple was torn, signifying that man now had a direct channel to God. This was grace it was unearned. It is something like when Naaman was cured of leprosy by bathing 7 times in the Jordan, as directed by Elisha. Naaman offered payment, but Elisha refused (2nd King 5:16). Elisha's servant Gehazi decided that Naaman's wallet needed to be lighted a bit, to the benefit of Gehazi.

2 Kings 5:20-26
20 Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”
21 So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.
22 “Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talentd of silver and two sets of clothing."
23 “By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi.
24 When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.
25 When he went in and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?” “Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.
26 But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money or to accept clothes—or olive groves and vineyards, or flocks and herds, or male and female slaves?

I don't see how the concept of mankind needing the services of a Potifex Maxims to intercede with God on our behalf is any different from the greed of Gehazi. Both sought rent from that which was freely given by God, reaping a harvest where they did not sow. And the concept of Papal infallibility (e.g Bulls of Donation) was used to justify the slave used in the the America's to extract the wealth using slave labor, with the Vatican being cut in on the action. Both seemed far more interested in the profits than they were the prophets.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-07-13   14:42:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: cranky, Pericles (#21)

Who would assume the risk of lending money without any hope of return?

People who believe and practice this:

"...lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great,..." - Luke 16:35-New American Standard Bible, English Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible

Sockratease  posted on  2015-07-13   14:52:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: cranky, Liberator (#13)

To what?

To bail out the banksters?

No. A few years ago most of the debt was moved from the banksters to the government organizations, ECB, IMF, and such. For the most part, the banksters are not the ones on the hook.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/28/us-eurozone-greece-debt-factbox-idUSKCN0P80XW20150628

Private investors hold 38.7 billion euros of Greek government bonds following a major write-down and debt swap in 2012 that reduced the Greek debt stock by 107 billion euros and the value of private holdings by an estimated 75 percent.

A complete breakdown of who holds the debt is given at the link.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-13   15:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: cranky (#21) (Edited)

the sum paid for the use of money, hence interest

Seems counter-intuitive.

Who would assume the risk of lending money without any hope of return?

I seem to recall a distinction between legal interest and usury, that distinction being the rate demanded by the lender.

Usury (in the original sense of any interest) was at times denounced by a number of religious leaders and philosophers in the ancient world, including Moses, Plato, Aristotle, Cato, Cicero, Seneca, Aquinas, Muhammad, Jesus, Philo and Gautama Buddha. For example, Cato said:

"And what do you think of usury?"—"What do you think of murder?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Christianity

Greece is under obligation by pretty much all religious and ancient philosophies to pay back the principal and an equal share of the profit that comes form the loan but not interest (another word for usury).

I am not surprised that they don't teach this in American churches these days.

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   15:32:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: nativist nationalist (#17)

Followers of Francis, do not be like the Pharisees boasting in the temple of how righteous they were. Don't talk the talk, walk the walk. Return your Church's stolen wealth to those it was stolen from.

I don't have the power to divest the Catholic Church of its assets.

If I did, I would methodically sell off the vast real estate holdings of the Church, sell the art treasures to museums, to the extent they could be so sold, and convert vast, cavernous religious buildings into places of residence, food, showers and health clincs for people.

There would be no such thing as a Catholic homeless person, because the Church would house the Catholic poor, and other poor as well, in those assets that it did not sell. All around the world.

Cash and securities endowments, and all other accumulations of wealth, plus the capital raised by the sale of these assets, would go first to stabilize and regularize the church on its smaller footprint, to make sure that all of these churches-cum-residences were in repair, etc.

And the rest would be dedicated to systematically rescuing Catholics throughout the world - all of those poor slave girls in Filipino and Latin American brothels, for instance, and all of those mothers teetering on the brink of abortion. The Middle Eastern Christians and Sudanese who need to get out of there, Catholics facing oppression in various African countries. There is a world full of flesh and blood Christians who need help RIGHT NOW.

Jesus and the Apostles ate with people directly, and provided direct aid. They didn't raise money to build fixed structures for worship, to fill up with statues and paintings.

The Church grew by having the MESSAGE, not stunning art and impressive buildings. The impressive buildings are a drain now that they're empty, and all of the holdings are a distraction. People look at all of that worldly wealth, and they ask why it is not dedicated, instead to the poor. And they're right. It ought to be.

There are always excuses, but those excuses are not acceptable. They always come down to the Right Hand knowing what the Left is doing, and that is not the way that Jesus said to be.

So, that's what I would do with all of that money, if I were the head of the Church and had the power to sell off the assets and end the scandal of the vast accumulation of wealth.

But I don't.

And so once again, as with the city of my birth, and the state, and the county, and the military in which I served, and the various businesses for which I have worked in the past, I find myself in an organization that has stated ideals I accept and agree with, but whose men always make immoral shortcuts, and do the wrong thing, and build edifices on foundations of sand, and monuments with feet of clay.

I agree, don't talk the talk, walk the walk.

However, what can I do about the Catholic Church's errors. No more than I can do anything about the errors of the United States, or the State of Michigan or Connecticut, or the Cities of Detroit or New York, or the Navy. All I can do is point out the weakness and sin and say what OUGHT to be done.

The only realm that I control is my own flesh and my family, and I do not completely control even those. I cannot choose my next breath, and God can turn off my heartbeat any time he wants. I can lead and admonish my wife and child, but I cannot FORCE them to agree.

So, what is left to any man, in a world where he himself is fallible (and has failed), where those closest to him are fallible (and have failed)? To walk away from all other people to live in a tent in the desert? What would that do? It would do gteater evil, for family depend on me.

Can I secede from the nation? Only through immigration, and where else is there to go? Countries are all imperfect. I could emigrate to lands I think are prettier in some way, but those lands all have their moral cancers as well.

And with the Church, where is there to go? To secede from one and walk to another, which has its own sins. To what end? The Catholic Church does state the moral law correctly, and does state the proper relationship of man to God, and does correctly identify the nature of revealed things. It has preserved the canons. In most respects, the Church is like the Temple was at the time of Jesus - the "real thing", and the real place for tithes and sacrifices under the Law, but whose personnel were fallible and not to be trusted where their teachings departed from the moral law as expounded by Jesus.

On matters of wealth accumulation and the uses of wealth, the Catholic Church has severe problems. If one considers, for example, the Order of the Knights of Malta, whose European Members must be members of the titled nobility, or when one looks at prestigious Catholic private schools whose annual tuition is in the $25,000 range, one realizes that there is a problem in the church. The existence of such things under the Catholic banner shows a division of mind, and a lack of focus on the fundamental teachings of Jesus.

This is due to the habit of jangling those Keys too much, of seeing the Power of the Keys as a plenary license to legislate and make acceptable even that which is contrary to the philosophy manifest in Christ's own direct teachings.

When Catholics do this, it is offensive to me. Protestants usually cite Paul to do it, and were he here to speak himself he'd tell them that it was offensive to HIM also.

Men want what they want, and what they want is power, status, prestige, honor, and wealth. And all of those things are idols that should not be sought. The Church should, instead, be doing EXACTLY what Jesus and the Apostles did in their ministry. And if the Church has great resources, then the Church should be doing MORE of it, feeding MORE people. And if stability gives it real property, that should be used to house and stabilize people, to give them security in communal faith, not in building ornate, gaudy prayer houses full of statues and paintings and other things, which are then defended as though they were the very POINT of the religion.

YHWH ordained the making of the Bronze Serpent by Moses, so that was no idol. However, by Hezekiah's time the Judahites were burning candles before it and bowing and praying before it. Were they, in truth, praying to God and merely using the Bronze Serpent of Moses to focus their prayers? Perhaps. But it looked enough like idolatry to be a scandal to the King, so he had it melted down, to remove the temptation.

When I look at an ornate Catholic Church, I see three-dimensional history books, not idols. But when I see people touching the feet of the statues in their prayers, I see an unhealthy attachment to the physical representation. If it's just a statue I can live with it. But when billions of dollars are locked up in ornate art, I see the Church having gone wrong, aiming at being earthly princes and not fulfilling the Prime Directive of specifically caring for the poor.

Judas feigned offense at the anointing of Jesus because he wanted to steal the money for himself. My offense lies in the use of massive wealth that could rescue Christian lives for good, and pouring them instead into edifices and artifacts that then lead people to place importance in such things, when Christ gave them none.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   16:08:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Pericles (#26)

Greece is under a religious obligation to pay back the principal going back six years. Before that, given the distress, the Sabbatical inheres and the principal is to be written off and forgiven completely.

Under the Law of God, Greece owes six years of principal, and nothing more.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   16:09:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Sockratease (#24)

"...lend, expecting nothing in return;

That happened to me a few times. Now I don't lend money to friends, unless it's something like 20 or 40 bucks.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-07-13   16:15:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#28)

Under the Law of God, Greece owes six years of principal, and nothing more.

Would that be the Mosaic Law, and if not, to what "Law of God" are you referring?

Sockratease  posted on  2015-07-13   16:21:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Sockratease, Vicomte13 (#30) (Edited)

Under the Law of God, Greece owes six years of principal, and nothing more.

Would that be the Mosaic Law, and if not, to what "Law of God" are you referring?

These laws are well written down in the Catholic Church and apply to all Catholic nations in Europe. Protestant European nations have official churches that also regulate usury (and do not much differ from Catholic understanding which is similar to Orthodox understanding). Almost every European country has an official Christian denomination and these laws on usury are already part of their constitutional makeup based on that but are ignored.

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   16:35:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Vicomte13, nativist nationalist (#27) (Edited)

The Catholic Church does not own art. It owns religious works of extreme beauty. Just because secularist assign a monetary value on them over a religious one does not negate this. Don't let American thinking (Sell the art for cash) cloud the reason for the art. In Orthodox traditions the icons are holy items that are a gateway to the saints they represent and to understanding the New Testament in this world. They are part of the church the way parts of a motor are to the whole mechanism. The carved statues and paintings of the Catholic church serve the same purpose.

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   16:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13, A Pole (#28)

Greece is under a religious obligation to pay back the principal going back six years. Before that, given the distress, the Sabbatical inheres and the principal is to be written off and forgiven completely.

When the economy collapsed in the USA - I urged that this be the plan the USA followed - so called American "Christian Conservatives" on these forums howled in anger at the thought of Biblical debt forgiveness.

My idea - using Biblical principals - was to forgive interest payments on all existing home mortgages going back 7 years for the primary residence (not vacation homes, etc). People would be responsible for principal only. This would have kept most people in their homes, it would have allowed banks to stay afloat because they were not losing money - just breaking even - and the money saved would be put back into the economy as part of people upkeeping their homes and keeping property values somewhat above water.

But for some reason so called Biblical Conservative Christians thought that was communistic or some such. I guess they don't really read the Bible but rather they get their info from the church of Limbough and Fox.

Pericles  posted on  2015-07-13   16:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: nolu chan (#25)

No.

I consider the Troika 'banksters'.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   16:55:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Pericles (#26)

I am not surprised that they don't teach this in American churches these days.

The teachers may not put much stock it wikipedia.

I know I don't.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   16:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Stoner (#2)

What is the main source of Greece's economy, besides borrowing money?

Olive oil and dildos!! :)

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-07-13   17:00:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: cranky (#0)

The fund will now be managed by the Greeks. Some of the money will also be used for growth initiatives and to recapitalise Greek banks.

WTF?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong,but if banks lend money that isn't repaid,aren't they supposed to suck it up? After all,THEY were the ones that made the loans,and THEY are the ones that charge high interest rates to protect themselves.

Just exactly WHEN did it become acceptable for the citizens and the national treasuries to be their daddies?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Stoner (#2)

What is the main source of Greece's economy, besides borrowing money?

Tourism and foreign grants.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:17:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Sockratease (#30)

Would that be the Mosaic Law, and if not, to what "Law of God" are you referring?

The Law that shall not pass away until the end of the world, according to Jesus.

That Law. Jesus refined, perfected and made clear that law. He did not abolish so much as a letter of it.

One could say that the law of the Sabbatical and the Jubilee only applied to Hebrews in Israel, and that would be true. However, it gives a very clear view into God's mind. And God spoke his mind through Jesus: Give and do not expect anything in return. Do not store up wealth. Feed the poor, the widow, the orphan.

God gave the Hebrews a 7th year release from debt. Jesus moved those goalposts nearer.

Fact is, the Greeks have debt for the most part due to pensions and pay. Pensions are poverty relief, necessary. To impose poverty on the Greeks for having borrowed money to relieve poverty is not just or Christian. All of the debt that went to those purposes ought to be forgiven.

Of course, as long as there are stores of wealth piled up in Greece, and poor neighbors requiring aid, that money should be mobilized also, to relieve those neighbors, not to pay creditors.

Interest is forfeit.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   17:20:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Liberator, Pericles (#10)

Greece is now the EU's slave-state

I think the modern term is "Bitch".

This is what happens when a country is so lame they elect a leader that idolizes Che.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:20:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Fred Mertz (#29)

"...lend, expecting nothing in return;

That happened to me a few times.Now I don't lend money to friends, unless it's something like 20 or 40 bucks.

I have several times lent money to a woman who gave back neither interest, not that I asked for any interest, or principal. I even employed her for a couple of small easy jobs in the hope that the money I gave her for work she would use to pay back some of the money I let her borrow. That idea resulted in not being paid back any money that I lent her but instead having her steal some money from me while working for me.

The amounts lent and stolen were small in the "20 or 40 bucks" range that you refer to. But even so, I eventually lost my temper and said to her somethings I never should have said. However, I also later told her I forgave her all the non payment of loans and stealing of money that she had done which involved me and told her that henceforth I counted it that she owed me no money and thus she did not have to repay me any of that money.

Fred how is your wife, Ethel Mae Louise Roberta Potter Mertz?

Sockratease  posted on  2015-07-13   17:22:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Liberator (#18)

This operation represents part of the "Banksters" and One World Government scheme themselves.

Of course. The Vatican is the oldest "One World Nation" organization. They dream of a Catholic World with them making all the decisions and collecting all the taxes.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: cranky (#21)

Who would assume the risk of lending money without any hope of return?

People looking to repossess the property put up for collateral.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Pericles (#33)

Pericles, the Jubilee of which you spoke is indeed the way of God. He said it aloud and in clear terms in the law of the only state he ever ruled directly. Those laws to wipe out debt every 7 years, and to wipe out ALL legal obligation (including foreign, heathen slavery) every 50 years, was fundamental to breaking the cycle of idolatry to money.

Jesus followed the trend, calling for the mobilization of all wealth for poverty relief, the forgiveness of debt. He taught us to pray God to forgive us our debts just as we forgive our debtors. If we want to be freed of the debt we owe God, God has promised to forgive us, to the extent that we forgive others their debts to us.

You should look harder at what God did in Israel, though. God's principle is not "repayment of principal". No. God gave the land to each succeeding generation outright, a pure grant. He demanded a ten percent tithe from the produce, and also first fruits, and other donations, and all of this went to maintain the judiciary (who were the religious administrators) and to poverty relief.

If you really want to follow God's path, then at adulthood, each should be given his lodging. It is ok to lend him the money to pay for it, at zero percent interest, but this is forgiven in the seventh year. That's what God did, that's the example. Every person in Israel was given housing security by God, without debt.

And there can be no taxation on the primary residence. It cannot be taken for ANY reason - not taxes, not to pay other debts.

Consider what that sort of housing security does for men, all men, and women. It sets them free in a profound way.

This was the very basis for what God did in Israel.

Of course we cannot get there governmentally in America, but we CAN get there, as Christians, you and I and others, by joining forces and doing it right.

Let's take this offline, for now we do truly have a common theme from God to discuss.

We're not rulers, and won't be. Nor bishops. Nor generals. Nor captains of industry. We're small and weak. But we have God. You and I should talk, and will.

I will initiate by the private mail.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   17:30:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Fred Mertz (#29)

Now I don't lend money to friends, unless it's something like 20 or 40 bucks.

NEVER lend money that you expect and need to get paid back.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:30:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: CZ82 (#36)

What is the main source of Greece's economy, besides borrowing money?

Olive oil and dildos!! :)

I'm betting Popeye is really steamed about that.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: sneakypete (#40)

This is what happens when a country is so lame they elect a leader that idolizes Che.

In a sense. It is what happens when a leader is elected who idolizes Che, but does not have the fortitude to go all the way to where Che went.

Things are bad enough in Greece for revolution, but the revolutionaries are poodles.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-13   17:33:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#47)

It is what happens when a leader is elected who idolizes Che, but does not have the fortitude to go all the way to where Che went.

Multiple graves?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-13   17:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: sneakypete, Liberator (#46) (Edited)

I'm thinking Popeye was a vegetarian not a vagetarian!!

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-07-13   18:12:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: sneakypete, cranky (#37)

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong,but if banks lend money that isn't repaid,

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if banks lend money that isn't repaid.....isn't the bank supposed to lend the borrower more money? And the more that is not repaid the more the banks are supposed to lend. Especially if its a government bank that is lending the money as it's not theirs but their taxpayers money. Right?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-07-13   18:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: SOSO (#50)

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if banks lend money that isn't repaid.....isn't the bank supposed to lend the borrower more money?

Well, as many (and Donald Trump is one of them) claim: 'if you owe the bank a hundred dollars, you have a creditor. But if you owe the bank a million dollars, you have a partner'.

There's more than a little truth to that saying, imho.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   19:14:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: sneakypete (#37)

Just exactly WHEN did it become acceptable for the citizens and the national treasuries to be their daddies?

November 25, 2008.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-13   19:18:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: cranky (#51)

There's more than a little truth to that saying, imho.

More than a little. It's called "Creditors Prison" (my term). That's when a borrower goes to his bank and says I can't pay your loan back and you are going to jail until I can.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-07-13   20:48:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: sneakypete (#43)

People looking to repossess the property put up for collateral.

That's one case where a person might.

It would still come down to risk versus reward, I would think.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-14   8:54:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: cranky (#54) (Edited)

It would still come down to risk versus reward, I would think.

These people aren't even thinking of immediate financial gain. What they are going after is total control and power. Once you own a country,the money will come.

Money is only of limited importance when you reach the point where an increase in your net worth of a billion dollars results in a bored "so what?" response.

Power is different,though. When you have power you don't have to worry about things like making sure minor functionaries know who you are so you get the Royal Treatment. When you have power you can order the police to arrest any customs official that wants to search your luggage,and have mayors open your door when your chauffeur drive you to dinner. You even get diplomatic immunity when you travel to other countries. Raw money doesn't buy that kind of privilege. Power does.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-07-14   9:42:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: sneakypete (#55)

What they are going after is total control and power.

That's exactly what they are acquiring, according to some.

According to Business Insider, the assets to be sold to foreigners include "... baseball stadiums, casinos, airplanes, horse racing tracks, and islands.

State-run industries are also likely to be sold to the private sector in this massive $71 billion fire-sale.".

I've read even the port of Piraeus may go.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-14   9:51:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Sockratease (#24)

People who believe and practice this:

"...lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great,..."

I don't suppose you could give me a few names, could you?

I wouldn't mind making some cold calls.

I can use the free money.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-07-15   7:59:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: cranky (#57)

I don't suppose you could give me a few names, could you?

I wouldn't mind making some cold calls.

I can use the free money.

Sorry cranky, but if I did what you ask for I might endanger my own supply of free money. :-)

Sockratease  posted on  2015-07-15   11:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Sockratease (#41)

Fred how is your wife, Ethel Mae Louise Roberta Potter Mertz?

She turned out to be a crack head with no redeeming skills in the bedroom, now that you axed.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-07-15   21:39:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Vicomte13 (#27)

So, what is left to any man, in a world where he himself is fallible (and has failed), where those closest to him are fallible (and have failed)?

I'm not Roman Catholic, so this is an honest question.

Is the Pope considered by Catholics infallible - or has that changed?

Do you consider the Pope infallible?

Rufus T Firefly  posted on  2015-07-15   22:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: sneakypete (#37)

Just exactly WHEN did it become acceptable for the citizens and the national treasuries to be [the bankers] daddies?

During the reign of the one you call "King Franklin", I believe.

Since then, it's been one of those "bi-partisan" tenets that all of us voters in Hicksville supposedly long for.

Bipartisan - ah, yes.

It's so nice to know that when your wallet is picked, it's truly a "bi-partisan" effort.

Rufus T Firefly  posted on  2015-07-15   22:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Fred Mertz (#59)

She turned out to be a crack head with no redeeming skills in the bedroom,

Wow I am shocked! Lucy and Ricky must have been shocked if you told them that news!

Sockratease  posted on  2015-07-15   22:49:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Rufus T Firefly (#60)

The doctrine of the Catholic Church is that when the Pope speaks about certain specific issues, under certain precise conditions, that he is guided by the Holy Spirit in such a way that he cannot err - it is not really him speaking, but God inspiring him to speak. That circumstance - and ONLY that - is when the Pope speaks infallibly. It hardly ever happens.

The precise wording of the doctrine is that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" on a matter of "faith and morals" doctrine, he speaks infallibly.

Those conditions are tight. "Ex cathedra" means that the Pope has to be (figuratively) sitting on the Papal Throne, wearing the Papal garb, and speaking specifically on a fundamental doctrine that pertains to faith and morals.

Thus, for example, all of the executions and horrors of history are NOT examples of the failure of infallibility, because those are "mere" disciplinary matters. (I speak of doctrine - I don't think burning people alive is "mere" anything.)

There is no specific list of what constitutes matters of faith and morals, and so Catholics of different views will debate something like divorce or the all-male clergy. Popes have opinions and speak strongly, but none has formally gotten up on the Throne, speaking ex cathedra, and calling these matters explicitly matters of faith and morals.

Devout Catholics will tell you that what constitutes infallible doctrine is clear. It is not. SOME things clearly ARE infallible doctrines, because they are so old and so universally believed that to attempt to change them would be heresy. An example of that would be the contents of the Apostles Creed.

But then, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches split from one another over the matter of the words "and from the son" - "filioque" - in the Nicene Creed, but theologians have found ways to bridge that gap (the laity and the bulk of clergy have not, but some high theologians, including the last Pope, seem to have.

The logic of Infallibility stems from two Biblical comments of Jesus. The first was that he was sending the Holy Spirit into the Church, and that therefore the gates of hell would never prevail against it. Catholics have taken that to mean that the TRUE Church can NEVER fall before the Devil, into fatal error, because Christ send the Holy Spirit to guard it, preventing the Devil from ever succeeding in that regard.

The second is Jesus' grant of the "the power of the keys" to Peter, telling Peter that he was granting him "the power of the keys…to loose and to bind", and that what Peter bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what Peter loosed on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

The Catholics have taken this to mean that Peter - the leader of the Apostles - and the Apostles who succeeded him directly as Bishop of Rome in Apostolic Succession, have the power to legislate for the Church, and that what the Pope determines binds all on earth, and that Jesus pledged that Heaven itself would be bound by it also. Likewise, what the Pope "loosed", the strictures he removed, would not be considered by Heaven to be binding on man anymore.

Thus, when the Church removed the ban on eating blood, and forbade the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath, requiring that God be worshipped on Sunday, and explicitly that Christians MUST work on Saturday - that to keep the Sabbath was a SIN - this was an example of the Pope and the Apostolate exercising the power of the keys granted by God.

Because Jesus granted the power to Peter to legislate and bind heaven thereby, and because Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would never prevail against the Church, Catholics have taken the view that these two things equal infallibility.

My own view: as a matter of logic, the Catholics are right. And I note that the really atrocious Popes of the past seem to have avoided making doctrinal pronouncements of the sort that would fit the definition of Infallible doctrines.

All of that said, I find the confusion and rancor that the doctrine raises to render it of highly questionable value. Over the course of my life, I have been in many an argument with rabidly politicized Catholics, of whatever stripe, who start wielding infallibility as the basis of their authoritative pronouncements, as though THEY were the Pope.

And yet I see many of the same sort of Catholic having meltdowns and becoming borderline sedevacantists because they don't like Francis' politics.

My own PERSONAL view? When you drill down into Catholic doctrine in the Cathechism, most of it lines up with (and is based on) passages in the Bible. Those things are correct.

And then there are those things that are based on miracles and revelations that have happened SINCE the Bible. Of particular note, the Marian appearance at Lourdes, which has resulted in so many hearings. The hearings are real, and can Satan cast out Satan? No. So the heailings are divine, and that means that yes, God does use Mary as an emissary. It's not in the Bible, but salvation history doesn't end with the Bible, and neither did miracles.

The fact of Marian visitations, and of bread-to-blood miracles, lends divine corroboration to several Catholic doctrines that otherwise would simply hang on assertion.

So where I come out is this: when the Catholic Church was killing people, those Catholics doing it were clearly in error, and the Church clearly erred. But those things are not matters of infallibility. On infallible doctrines, the ones that are apparently infallible are the ones that would seem to be infallible. If the Pope went mad and pronounced gay marriage a new infallible doctrine, it would be obvious that the Pope had gone mad.

I think whatever the Pope says, given the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church such that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it, that I'd better listen, and listen again, and a third time. When I find I don't agree, I keep my tongue silent.

I did not agree with the Pope when he opposed the American intervention in Iraq in the War on Terror. I wish I had, because the Pope was right.

I think that God does give Pope's some sort of wisdom, and some sort of protection, against going up there into that chair and formally handing down absurdities, but I also think that all of the infallible doctrines concerning ancient traditions have already been established, so the only room for a new one would be in response to miracles.

That's what I think. It's not the "strong version" of infallibility that devout Catholics have, but it functionally gets to nearly the same results.

I considered global warming to be an utter hoax. Francis has spoken of climate change as real, and given that he's the Pope - though speaking on a matter that would not concern infallibility, I nevertheless have fallen silent on the issue and am awaiting developments. Some politically motivated scientist saying it doesn't persuade me. In fact, it makes me hostile. But if the Pope says it, that bears some silence and reflection. Because where I've opposed the Pope's views on certain issues in the past, in the fulness of time I have proved to be wrong every time, over time. And I remember those things.

So I do think that yes, the Holy Spirit DOES guide the Pope, in some manner. And he's the only official in the world who - by the fact that it's HIM saying it - will cause me to stop vocalizing a position in opposition and really THINK about it, with the ASSUMPTION that I am probably in the wrong and have missed something.

So yes, I do accord supernatural rectitude to the Papacy, in that regard. When the Pope comes out against my position, I generally shut up. I am hard to turn, but I won't take public stands against the Pope - all experience hath shewn ME that whenever I have, I've turned out to be wrong. And that's something.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-15   23:53:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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