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Title: Police Celebrate 4th Of July With Nationwide No Refusal Checkpoints and Forced Blood Draws
Source:
Free Thought Project
URL Source: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/po ... ationwide-refusal-checkpoints/
Published: Jul 4, 2015
Author: John Vibes
Post Date: 2015-07-04 10:46:33 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 68980
Comments: 141
Happy 4th of July, the day where Americans celebrate imaginary freedom, and police departments nationwide make millions of dollars violating the rights of nonviolent individuals. Under the pretense of catching drunk drivers, police will be patrolling the streets and setting up checkpoints all over the country this weekend. In some cases they will arrest drunk drivers, in others they will search and arrest nonviolent drug offenders, while other people may get citations for problems with their vehicle or registration. Especially for people who haven’t even done anything wrong, these checkpoints are a gross violation of privacy and other natural born rights. Free people should not be stopped and searched or questioned in any way if they are attempting to travel freely. However, we sadly now live in a world where rights like traveling are seen as privileges, to be given and taken by government. As it stands right now, the way that the state deals with drunk driving is tyrannical and infringes upon everyone’s rights, even people like myself, who hardly ever drink. Economist Jeffrey Tucker wrote an article on this subject and discussed the problems with the status quo while offering some solutions as well. Laws against drunk driving have vastly expanded police power and done nothing to stop the practice. The best prevention against unsafe driving from drinking has been provided privately: friends, services offered by bars and restaurants, community interest groups, etc. This is the humane and rational way societies deal with social risks. The police have only messed up this process by adding a coercive element that targets liberty rather than crime. And we can see where this is heading. Texting is now illegal in most places. So is talking on the phone. Maybe talking itself should be illegal. Some communities are talking about banning eating. All of this is a distraction from the real issue. If our ultimate goals are to reduce driver impairment and maximize highway safety, we should be punishing reckless driving. It shouldn’t matter if it’s caused by alcohol, sleep deprivation, prescription medication, text messaging, or road rage. If lawmakers want to stick it to dangerous drivers who threaten everyone else on the road, they can dial up the civil and criminal liability for reckless driving, especially in cases that result in injury or property damage. Doing away with the specific charge of drunk driving sounds radical at first blush, but it would put the focus back on impairment, where it belongs. It might repair some of the civil-liberties damage done by the invasive powers the government says it needs to catch and convict drunk drivers. If the offense were reckless driving rather than drunk driving, for example, repeated swerving over the median line would be enough to justify the charge. There would be no need for a cop to jam a needle in your arm alongside a busy highway. Scrapping the DWI offense in favor of better enforcement of reckless driving laws would also bring some logical consistency to our laws, which treat a driver with a BAC of 0.08 much more harshly than, say, a driver distracted by his kids or a cell phone call, despite similar levels of impairment. The punishable act should be violating road rules or causing an accident, not the factors that led to those offenses. Singling out alcohol impairment for extra punishment isn’t about making the roads safer. It’s about a lingering hostility toward demon rum. There is no doubt that drunk driving should be discouraged and that solutions to prevent people from driving drunk should be explored. However, it is entirely possible to do this without violating anyone’s rights in the process. Meanwhile, in police state USA, it is business as usual. John Vibes is an author, researcher and investigative journalist who takes a special interest in the counter culture and the drug war. In addition to his writing and activist work he organizes a number of large events including the Free Your Mind Conference, which features top caliber speakers and whistle-blowers from all over the world. You can contact him and stay connected to his work at his Facebook page. You can find his 65 chapter Book entitled “Alchemy of the Timeless Renaissance” at bookpatch.com.
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#63. To: nolu chan (#62)
I disagree. But I'd rather go this route. Don't they also have the option to limit the jurisdiction of the so called supreme court.
But I'd rather go this route. Don't they also have the option to limit the jurisdiction of the so called supreme court. The Legislature has attempted to pass laws contrary to Roe. SCOTUS plays whack-a-mole striking them down. The appellate jurisdiction case is Ex Parte McCardle. The case was fully argued and taken under advisement. Jurisdiction was withdrawn, preventing any opinion from being issued. http://supreme.justia.com/us/74/506/case.html Ex parte McCardle, 74 U.S. 7 Wall. 506 506 (1868) Ex parte McCardle 74 U.S. (7 Wall.) 506 APPEAL FROM THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI Syllabus 1. The appellate jurisdiction of this court is conferred by the Constitution, and not derived from acts of Congress, but is conferred "with such exceptions, and under such regulations, as Congress may make," and, therefore, acts of Congress affirming such jurisdiction have always been construed as excepting from it all cases not expressly described and provided for. 2. When, therefore, Congress enacts that this court shall have appellate jurisdiction over final decisions of the Circuit Courts in certain cases, the act operates as a negation or exception of such jurisdiction in other cases, and the repeal of the act necessarily negatives jurisdiction under it of these cases also. 3. The repeal of such an act, pending an appeal provided for by it, is not an exercise of judicial power by the legislature, no matter whether the repeal takes effect before or after argument of the appeal. 4. The act of 27th March, 1868, repealing that provision of the act of 5th of February, 1867, to amend the Judicial Act of 1789, which authorized appeals to this court from the decisions of the Circuit Courts in cases of habeas corpus, does not except from the appellate jurisdiction of this 74 U. S. 507 court any cases but appeals under the act of 1867. It does not affect the appellate jurisdiction which was previously exercised in cases of habeas corpus. The case was this: The Constitution of the United States ordains as follows: "§ 1. The judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish." "§ 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases in law or equity arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States," &c. And in these last cases, the Constitution ordains that, "The Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations, as the Congress shall make." With these constitutional provisions in existence, Congress, on the 5th February, 1867, by "An act to amend an act to establish the judicial courts of the United States, approved September 24, 1789," provided that the several courts of the United States, and the several justices and judges of such courts, within their respective jurisdiction, in addition to the authority already conferred by law, should have power to grant writs of habeas corpus in all cases where any person may be restrained of his or her liberty in violation of the Constitution, or of any treaty or law of the United States. And that, from the final decision of any judge, justice, or court inferior to the Circuit Court, appeal might be taken to the Circuit Court of the United States for the district in which the cause was heard, and from the judgment of the said Circuit Court to the Supreme Court of the United States. This statute being in force, one McCardle, alleging unlawful restraint by military force, preferred a petition in the court below, for the writ of habeas corpus. 74 U. S. 508 The writ was issued, and a return was made by the military commander admitting the restraint, but denying that it was unlawful. It appeared that the petitioner was not in the military service of the United States, but was held in custody by military authority for trial before a military commission upon charges founded upon the publication of articles alleged to be incendiary and libelous, in a newspaper of which he was editor. The custody was alleged to be under the authority of certain acts of Congress. Upon the hearing, the petitioner was remanded to the military custody, but, upon his prayer, an appeal was allowed him to this court, and upon filing the usual appeal bond, for costs, he was admitted to bail upon recognizance, with sureties conditioned for his future appearance in the Circuit Court, to abide by and perform the final judgment of this court. The appeal was taken under the above-mentioned act of February 5, 1867. A motion to dismiss this appeal was made at the last term, and, after argument, was denied. [1] Subsequently, on the 2d, 3d, 4th, and 9th March, the case was argued very thoroughly and ably upon the merits, and was taken under advisement. While it was thus held, and before conference in regard to the decision proper to be made, an act was passed by Congress, [2] returned with objections by the President, and, on the 27th March, repassed by the constitutional majority, the second section of which was as follows: "And be it further enacted, That so much of the act approved February 5, 1867, entitled 'An act to amend an act to establish the judicial courts of the United States, approved September 24, 1789,' as authorized an appeal from the judgment of the Circuit Court to the Supreme Court of the United States, or the exercise of any such jurisdiction by said Supreme Court, on appeals which have been, or may hereafter be taken, be, and the same is hereby repealed. " 74 U. S. 509 The attention of the court was directed to this statute at the last term, but counsel having expressed a desire to be heard in argument upon its effect, and the Chief Justice being detained from his place here by his duties in the Court of Impeachment, the cause was continued under advisement. Argument was now heard upon the effect of the repealing act. 74 U. S. 512 THE CHIEF JUSTICE delivered the opinion of the court. The first question necessarily is that of jurisdiction, for if the act of March, 1868, takes away the jurisdiction defined by the act of February, 1867, it is useless, if not improper, to enter into any discussion of other questions. It is quite true, as was argued by the counsel for the petitioner, that the appellate jurisdiction of this court is not derived from acts of Congress. It is, strictly speaking, conferred 74 U. S. 513 by the Constitution. But it is conferred "with such exceptions and under such regulations as Congress shall make." It is unnecessary to consider whether, if Congress had made no exceptions and no regulations, this court might not have exercised general appellate jurisdiction under rules prescribed by itself. For among the earliest acts of the first Congress, at its first session, was the act of September 24th, 1789, to establish the judicial courts of the United States. That act provided for the organization of this court, and prescribed regulations for the exercise of its jurisdiction. The source of that jurisdiction, and the limitations of it by the Constitution and by statute, have been on several occasions subjects of consideration here. In the case of Durousseau v. The United States [3] particularly, the whole matter was carefully examined, and the court held that, while "the appellate powers of this court are not given by the judicial act, but are given by the Constitution," they are, nevertheless, "limited and regulated by that act, and by such other acts as have been passed on the subject." The court said further that the judicial act was an exercise of the power given by the Constitution to Congress "of making exceptions to the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court." "They have described affirmatively," said the court, "its jurisdiction, and this affirmative description has been understood to imply a negation of the exercise of such appellate power as is not comprehended within it." The principle that the affirmation of appellate jurisdiction implies the negation of all such jurisdiction not affirmed having been thus established, it was an almost necessary consequence that acts of Congress, providing for the exercise of jurisdiction, should come to be spoken of as acts granting jurisdiction, and not as acts making exceptions to the constitutional grant of it. The exception to appellate jurisdiction in the case before us, however, is not an inference from the affirmation of other 74 U. S. 514 appellate jurisdiction. It is made in terms. The provision of the act of 1867 affirming the appellate jurisdiction of this court in cases of habeas corpus is expressly repealed. It is hardly possible to imagine a plainer instance of positive exception. We are not at liberty to inquire into the motives of the legislature. We can only examine into its power under the Constitution, and the power to make exceptions to the appellate jurisdiction of this court is given by express words. What, then, is the effect of the repealing act upon the case before us? We cannot doubt as to this. Without jurisdiction, the court cannot proceed at all in any cause. Jurisdiction is power to declare the law, and, when it ceases to exist, the only function remaining to the court is that of announcing the fact and dismissing the cause. And this is not less clear upon authority than upon principle. Several cases were cited by the counsel for the petitioner in support of the position that jurisdiction of this case is not affected by the repealing act. But none of them, in our judgment, affords any support to it. They are all cases of the exercise of judicial power by the legislature, or of legislative interference with courts in the exercising of continuing jurisdiction. [4] On the other hand, the general rule, supported by the best elementary writers, [5] is that, "when an act of the legislature is repealed, it must be considered, except as to transactions past and closed, as if it never existed." And the effect of repealing acts upon suits under acts repealed has been determined by the adjudications of this court. The subject was fully considered in Norris v. Crecker, [6] and more recently in Insurance Company v. Ritchie. [7] In both of these cases, it was held that no judgment could be rendered in a suit after the repeal of the act under which it was brought and prosecuted. 74 U. S. 515 It is quite clear, therefore, that this court cannot proceed to pronounce judgment in this case, for it has no longer jurisdiction of the appeal, and judicial duty is not less fitly performed by declining ungranted jurisdiction than in exercising firmly that which the Constitution and the laws confer. Counsel seem to have supposed, if effect be given to the repealing act in question, that the whole appellate power of the court, in cases of habeas corpus, is denied. But this is an error. The act of 1868 does not except from that jurisdiction any cases but appeals from Circuit Courts under the act of 1867. It does not affect the jurisdiction which was previously exercised. [8] The appeal of the petitioner in this case must be DISMISSED FOR WANT OF JURISDICTION. [1] See Ex parte McCardle, 6 Wallace 318. [2] Act of March 27, 1868, 15 Stat. at Large 44. [3] 10 U. S. 6 Cranch 312; Wiscart v. Dauchy, 3 Dallas 321. [4] Lanier v. Gallatas, 13 Louisiana Annual 175; De Chastellux v. Fairchild, 15 Pennsylvania State 18; The State v. Fleming, 7 Humphreys 152; Lewis v. Webb, 3 Greenleaf 326. [5] Dwarris on Statutes 538. [6] 54 U. S. 13 Howard 429. [7] 72 U. S. 5 Wallace 541. [8] Ex parte McCardle, 6 Wallace 324.
Do you know of another way? Direct Action. Cite the law SCOTUS declared unconstitutional here. We are discussing SCOTUS and constitutionality.
The legislature does not require any sort of court action to do their job, which is to legislate. When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution. Therefore, my statement: Is correct....right?
I have a strong feeling Cliven Bundy is not off the hook. "Cliven Bundy has had multiple court orders to remove his cattle from federal public lands and he has not paid his grazing fees and he has not abided by the law," Jewell told the Las Vegas Review-Journal. "We will continue to pursue that." Speaking ahead of her appearance at the Western Governors' Association meeting in Incline Village, Nev., earlier this week, the Obama administration official refused to put a deadline on any action, however, the newspaper reports. "The wheels of justice move at their own pace," Jewell said. "I am confident this issue is going to be appropriately resolved." Edit Add: Cliven Bundy is worried about one of his supporters. The recalcitrant Nevada rancher, who has waged a running battle of words and lawsuits with the federal government over public lands, made a phone call to an out-of-state supporter facing prison time over comments he made in support of the newly christened tea party folk hero. Pennsylvania resident Will Michael, 24, pleaded guilty last month in federal court to threatening a Bureau of Land Management official as well as making interstate communication threats during Bundy's 2014 standoff with federal officials over land grazing rights.
Jefferson also wrote that nullification — states’ ignoring of federal dictates — is the “rightful remedy” for all central-government usurpation of states’ powers. Of course, this includes plainly unconstitutional rulings by oligarchic federal courts. States have recourse to the “rightful remedy” of nullification because the Constitution reserves most powers to the states, and the states are not bound to follow unconstitutional federal edicts. In fact, in order to adhere to the Constitution, state are duty bound not to enforce such edicts, but to declare them null and void at the state border. nolu chan erroneously claims: -- Stone correctly disagrees. -- The fact is, ALL officials of Fed, State, and local govts are duty bound by their oaths of office to adhere to the Constitution and ONLY laws made "in pursuance thereof". All other (constitutionally questionable) edicts are null and void from enactment...
In nolu chans defense. I believe him to be stating the way it is actually working right now. Not what we wish or the way we think it should be.
nolu chan erroneously claims: -- The fact is, ALL officials of Fed, State, and local govts are duty bound by their oaths of office to adhere to the Constitution and ONLY laws made "in pursuance thereof". All other (constitutionally questionable) edicts are, or can be declared to be, null and void from enactment... Chan and I recently had a discussion on just that point, and I came away with the opposite impression: -- that for some reason, he wants the SCOTUS to have the final say on what is constitutional..
Stone correctly disagrees. -- The fact is, ALL officials of Fed, State, and local govts are duty bound by their oaths of office to adhere to the Constitution and ONLY laws made "in pursuance thereof". All other (constitutionally questionable) edicts are null and void from enactment... In the case of a Constitutional Amendment, it "shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by Congress." Fro the instant an Amendment is declared ratified, it is an integral part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts. The notion that Congress can legislate or SCOTUS can rule any part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional is absurd. When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says. The Judicial Branch is not some superfluous body which issues irrelevant opinions for all to ignore.
Chan and I recently had a discussion on just that point, and I came away with the opposite impression: -- that for some reason, he wants the SCOTUS to have the final say on what is constitutional.. Chan claims: --- -- The fact is, ALL officials of Fed, State, and local govts are duty bound by their oaths of office to adhere to the Constitution and ONLY laws made "in pursuance thereof". All other (constitutionally questionable) edicts are, and can be declared, null and void from enactment... Yep, that's what that part of the constitution says.. In Article VI it says that only laws made "in pursuance thereof", (of the constitution), -"shall be the supreme law of the land." It's absurd to you, granted. But you can't refute the fact of the supremacy clause. Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself. I've never claimed it was..
Nor would I try. Under the supremacy clause, the first listed is the Constitution, and it is the paramount law, the expression of the will of the people by which they created the government in all its branches, and it is superior to any other law in the land. The Executive must obey it, the Legislature can only legislate pursuant to it, and the Judicial cannot overrule it or strike it down, in whole or in part—the concept is an absurdity. Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. Law Dictionary, 2nd Edition, Steven F. Gifis Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 176-77 (1803) Between these alternatives there is no middle ground. The Constitution is either a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means, or it is on a level with ordinary legislative acts, and, like other acts, is alterable when the legislature shall please to alter it. If the former part of the alternative be true, then a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law; if the latter part be true, then written Constitutions are absurd attempts on the part of the people to limit a power in its own nature illimitable. Certainly all those who have framed written Constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be that an act of the Legislature repugnant to the Constitution is void. This theory is essentially attached to a written Constitution, and is consequently to be considered by this Court as one of the fundamental principles of our society. It is not, therefore, to be lost sight of in the further consideration of this subject. As far as I know, the court of tpaine does not hold appellate jurisdiction over SCOTUS, nor does any government authority. The Constitution is our "superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means." Misconstruing the supremacy clause does not overturn 2+ centuries of legal precedent.
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself. And nothing you just posted refutes my position. -- As usual you are posting long winded opinions I have no problem with, as if they proved your position. -- They don't.
So you are saying the constitution is flawed. That there is no remedy when 9 Supreme Court Judges lie and say the constitution means one thing when in basic English it clearly says something different.
Mr Chan I believe you should concede that point. Nolu Chans argument in my view is that there needs to be some check on the President and congress from making laws that are contrary to the constitution. Which is reasonable. But since we are imperfect people and liars and thieves and on the take. Since that is the case we are going to get incorrect and even evil decisions. We are then stuck with these decisions. That people with common sense know are lies and incorrect. The evil among us are fine to lie and say that yes that is what the Constitution says. They know they are lying but will not admit it. Then there are the ignorant which are on both sides. Tpaine doesn't like this. He recognizes that the Supreme Court and its functions aren't prescribed in the constitution. Nolu Chan on the other hand wants the same thing as you. He wants them to follow the constitution. So he sees it as a court has to make a determination. A court ruled in the Marberry vs Madisoin case. He accepts this as he sees that there is a need for there to be some authority to check the laws and strike them down if they are contrary to the constitution. So Chan sees it as the courts are set up by the constitution and ruled and that is that. Even if it is not directly mentioned in the constitution. You see it as they ruled incorrectly and when the Supreme Court gets it wrong you legitimately get pissed and point out that the Supreme Court doesn't have that authority. I'm sure Tpaine also thinks that there should be some check. But he thinks they should just follow it. He knows what it is, what it says and they better do it. If the Supreme Court gets it wrong the President has the right to ignore it and do what the constitution says. That is fine and I kind of agree with it. But the problem with that is the President could lie and just ignore the constitution also. So maybe as men we can't make a perfect system, and since we have liars and pieces of crap because our values have broken down. Also because people were always corrupt. So maybe that's is what who was it Benjamin Franklin said it was a system made for morale and religious people. You know people that are honest and do what the constitution said and didn't lie to subvert it for whatever purpose.
And nothing you just posted refutes my position. -- As usual you are posting long winded opinions I have no problem with, as if they proved your position. -- They don't. You just have a basic misunderstanding of the law and do not know what you are talking about. You can not and never have cited any legal authority that the judiciary can strike down a constitutional amendment or any other part of the Constitution. Your position continues to be absurd.
No. The assertion that a constitutional amendment, or any part of the Constitution, can be struck down by the judiciary, or that anyone is free to legally ignore any part of the Constitution, continues to be an unsupportable legal absurdity.
There is always a check. If the people think the court has erred in constitutional interpretation, they can amend the Constitution to overturn the holding of the Court. If the Congress thinks the Court has erred in statutory interpretation, Congress can just write another law, overturning what the Court has held. Everyone ignoring all but his or her own notion of the Constitution is not a check, it is anarchy.
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself. I've cited the constitution itself, and you cannot refute its words. Your opinion is noted, and the fact that the best 'proof' you can cite is to call Stone and I absurd....
Congress can impeach and remove supreme justices, and also the president. Justices are appointed "for a term of good behavior" ONLY. If they misbehave... BOOT THEM OUT! It's the Republican and Democrat party voters fault for electing POS congresscritters. Members of the D&R crime family LOVE violating the Constitution. Congress has the power to remedy the situation, but Boehner and McConnell won't. They love graft, corruption, and selling We The People down the river.
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself. Your opinion is supported by nothing at all. Repeating an absurdity over and over makes it no less absurd. Cite the case where a constitutional amendment has ever been struck down by SCOTUS. Cite the case where SCOTUS has ever claimed such authority. Cite the case where a SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution has been overturned by congressional legislation.
Certainly. The can also limit the court's appellate jurisdiction, increase or decrease (but not eliminate) the justices on the court, and eliminate all the federal courts except the Supreme court. But Congress can not overturn a Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution.
That has only happenbed 17 times in 240 years. 9 judges exercising a power that is not identified in the constitution. Then millions and millions of just have to go through a long process to overturn their tyranny. If it is as you say then the constitution has a fatal flaw in it and it sucks.
Because a court that gave itself powers not contained in the constitution. Then people obey it like sheep. It is "color of law". But it is not based on the constitution.
Then you should be able to quote from the constitution to make your point. But you can't.
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself. Chan responded at #52: --- Seems to me that you addressed this issue honestly back at #52, Chan.. --- Can you explain why we are all 'absurd' now?
Your opinion is supported by nothing at all. Repeating an absurdity over and over makes it no less absurd. Cite the case where a constitutional amendment has ever been struck down by SCOTUS. Cite the case where SCOTUS has ever claimed such authority. Cite the case where a SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution has been overturned by congressional legislation. Cite any recognized legal authority to support your imaginary concept that SCOTUS has struck down a constitutional amendment or claimed the authority to strike down a constitutional amendment. Is your source nonexistent or so embarrassing that you refuse to identify it? Don't be bashful, cite any recognized legal authority, preferably one that is a lawyer and not a wingnut with a blog.
Seems to me that you addressed this issue honestly back at #52, Chan.. --- Can you explain why we are all 'absurd' now? Unable to answer a reasonable question, you repeat your "absurd" allegations, and resume your barracks type lawyer leading questions: -- I've never made such claims, as you know.. Again, I've never claimed they have, - mr leading question wannabe lawyer.. You're repeating yourself, poor thing. -- I suggest you regain control, and consider telling us why you were honest about the issue at post #52, and are now claiming everyone else is absurd..
If that were true, the Constitution would not be a very short framework, it would be a very lengthy legal code. "The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. ... The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority...." The judicial power is given to the Courts, not the Executive or Legislature. As explicitly stated by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1792, “by the Constitution, neither the Secretary at War nor any other Executive officer, nor even the legislature, is authorized to sit as a court of errors on the judicial acts or opinions of this court.” Hayburn’s Case, 2 US 409, 414 (1792)
You assume this is absurd but run and hide from citing the source of your absurdities? When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
"The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. ... The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority...." But the judicial power is not absolute. It too is tempered by the checks and balances that apply to the legislative and executive powers.. -- The only supreme power is the constitution itself: ---
You're repeating yourself, poor thing. -- I suggest you regain control, and consider telling us why you were honest about the issue at post #52, and are now claiming everyone else is absurd. Your quote above, from #52, is not absurd, and I certainly never said it was.. This discussion is getting bizarro, imho.. You seem to be taking personal affront at any criticism of your opinions about SCOTUS opinions. -- Why?
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken. Are you saying this is incorrect, or just blathering?
Your previous blather includes, http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=40620&Disp=68#C68 tpaine posted on 2015-07-05 2:42:43 ET Is this now not erroneous? Your latest invention is: This discussion is getting bizarro, imho.. It is especially bizarro when you claim it is a quote from my #52. Just how did you cut and paste that from #52? You are attempting to respond to #91. That particular phrasing made its initial appearance at #91. Not only is it not absurd, it is not erroneous. It is 100% correct and you know it. When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
nolu chan erroneously claims: -- Chan responded at #52: --- Seems to me that you addressed this issue honestly back at #52, Chan.. --- Can you explain why we are all 'absurd' now? Here is your reply, at #91: --- Which I mistakenly thought was made at #52, seeing that it says 'virtually' the same thing. Your qualifiers at both #52 and at #91 make your opinion constitutionally acceptable. Your original opinion is not..
Yeah, well I said it so slightly different from the Supreme Court you couldn't tell the difference. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=40620&Disp=68#C68 tpaine posted on 2015-07-05 2:42:43 ET Try the U.S. Supreme Court in 1792: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/2/409/case.html Hayburn’s Case, 2 US 409, 414 (1792) Or this at the U.S. Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx U.S. Supreme Court website: The Court and Constitutional Interpretation Or this at the UMKC School of Law: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/supremecourtintro.html University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Law website: Or this at the South Carolina Bar Association: http://www.scbar.org/Teachers-Students/All-Programs/Teachers-and-the-Courts/Chapters/Federal-Courts South Carolina Bar Association website: Or this at the World Encyclopedia of Law: http://lawin.org/united-states-supreme-court/ World Encyclopedia of Law - - - - - What is erroneous? The legislature cannot overrule SCOTUS when it rules on a constitutional issue. "When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court." That rules out a legislative action.
"When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court." That rules out a legislative action. Your opinion, and that of the court, is erroneous.. The key word that makes those opinions erroneous is 'VIRTUALLY'.. --- That opinion is NOT enumerated in the Constitution, thus the Court does not have that power. Whereas the legislature may indeed have that power as Art III, Sec 2, Paragraph 2 notes.
The court and all the law books are wrong and you are right, but you can't cite one damned legal source that supports your fantasy. The Court opinion prevails, even when tpaine deems it erroneous. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=40620&Disp=72#C72 It's absurd to you, granted. But you can't refute the fact of the supremacy clause. You should learn what the Supremacy Clause is about. You are obviously completely lost. Neither Congress nor the Court can invalidate a constitutional amendment. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/2/409/case.html Hayburn’s Case, 2 US 409, 414 (1792) - - - - - Ibid. at 210 - - - - - http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/358/1.html Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1, 18 (1958) - - - - - From the opinion of the Court in the National Prohibition Cases, 253 U.S. 350, 386-8 (1920) 6. The first section of the amendment — the one embodying the prohibition — is operative throughout the entire territorial limits of the United States, binds all legislative bodies, courts, public officers and individuals within those limits, and of its own force invalidates every legislative act, whether by Congress, by a state Legislature, or by a territorial assembly, which authorizes or sanctions what the section prohibits. - - - - - Ableman v Booth, 62 US, 21 How. 506, 517-21 (1858) But the supremacy thus conferred on this Government could not peacefully be maintained unless it was clothed with judicial power equally paramount in authority to carry it into execution, for if left to the courts of justice of the several States, conflicting decisions would unavoidably take place, and the local tribunals could hardly be expected to be always free [518] from the local influences of which we have spoken. And the Constitution and laws and treaties of the United States, and the powers granted to the Federal Government, would soon receive different interpretations in different States, and the Government of the United States would soon become one thing in one State and another thing in another. It was essential, therefore, to its very existence as a Government that it should have the power of establishing courts of justice, altogether independent of State power, to carry into effect its own laws, and that a tribunal should be established in which all cases which might arise under the Constitution and laws and treaties of the United States, whether in a State court or a court of the United States, should be finally and conclusively decided. Without such a tribunal, it is obvious that there would be no uniformity of judicial decision, and that the supremacy, (which is but another name for independence) so carefully provided in the clause of the Constitution above referred to could not possibly be maintained peacefully unless it was associated with this paramount judicial authority. Accordingly, it was conferred on the General Government in clear, precise, and comprehensive terms. It is declared that its judicial power shall (among other subjects enumerated) extend to all cases in law and equity arising under the Constitution and laws of the United States, and that, in such cases, as well as the others there enumerated, this court shall have appellate jurisdiction both as to law and fact, with such exceptions and under such regulations as Congress shall make. The appellate power, it will be observed, is conferred on this court in all cases or suits in which such a question shall arise. It is not confined to suits in the inferior courts of the United States, but extends to all cases where such a question arises, whether it be in a judicial tribunal of a State or of the United States. And it is manifest that this ultimate appellate power in a tribunal created by the Constitution itself was deemed essential to secure the independence and supremacy of the General Government in the sphere of action assigned to it, to make the Constitution and laws of the United States uniform, and the same in every State, and to guard against evils which would [519] inevitably arise from conflicting opinions between the courts of a State and of the United States, if there was no common arbiter authorized to decide between them. The importance which the framers of the Constitution attached to such a tribunal, for the purpose of preserving internal tranquillity, is strikingly manifested by the clause which gives this court jurisdiction over the sovereign States which compose this Union when a controversy arises between them. Instead of reserving the right to seek redress for injustice from another State by their sovereign powers, they have bound themselves to submit to the decision of this court, and to abide by its judgment. And it is not out of place to say here that experience has demonstrated that this power was not unwisely surrendered by the States, for, in the time that has already elapsed since this Government came into existence, several irritating and angry controversies have taken place between adjoining States in relation to their respective boundaries, and which have sometimes threatened to end in force and violence but for the power vested in this court to hear them and decide between them. The same purposes are clearly indicated by the different language employed when conferring supremacy upon the laws of the United States, and jurisdiction upon its courts. In the first case, it provides that “this Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, shall be the supreme law of the land, and obligatory upon the judges in every State.” The words in italics show the precision and foresight which marks every clause in the instrument. The sovereignty to be created was to be limited in its powers of legislation, and if it passed a law not authorized by its enumerated powers, it was not to be regarded as the supreme law of the land, nor were the State judges bound to carry it into execution. And as the courts of a State, and the courts of the United States, might, and indeed certainly would, often differ as to the extent of the powers conferred by the General Government, it was manifest that serious controversies would arise between the authorities of the United States and of the States, which must be settled by force of arms unless some [520] tribunal was created to decide between them finally and with out appeal. The Constitution has accordingly provided, as far as human foresight could provide, against this danger. And, in conferring judicial power upon the Federal Government, it declares that the jurisdiction of its courts shall extend to all cases arising under “this Constitution” and the laws of the United States—leaving out the words of restriction contained in the grant of legislative power which we have above noticed. The judicial power covers every legislative act of Congress, whether it be made within the limits of its delegated powers or be an assumption of power beyond the grants in the Constitution. This judicial power was justly regarded as indispensable not merely to maintain the supremacy of the laws of the United States, but also to guard the States from any encroachment upon their reserved rights by the General Government. And as the Constitution is the fundamental and supreme law, if it appears that an act of Congress is not pursuant to and within the limits of the power assigned to the Federal Government, it is the duty of the courts of the United States to declare it unconstitutional and void. The grant of judicial power is not confined to the administration of laws passed in pursuance to the provisions of the Constitution, nor confined to the interpretation of such laws, but, by the very terms of the grant, the Constitution is under their view when any act of Congress is brought before them, and it is their duty to declare the law void, and refuse to execute it, if it is not pursuant to the legislative powers conferred upon Congress. And as the final appellate power in all such questions is given to this court, controversies as to the respective powers of the United States and the States, instead of being determined by military and physical force, are heard, investigated, and finally settled with the calmness and deliberation of judicial inquiry. And no one can fail to see that, if such an arbiter had not been provided in our complicated system of government, internal tranquillity could not have been preserved, and if such controversies were left to arbitrament of physical force, our Government, State and National, would soon cease to be Governments [521] of laws, and revolutions by force of arms would take the place of courts of justice and judicial decisions. In organizing such a tribunal, it is evident that every precaution was taken which human wisdom could devise to fit it for the high duty with which it was intrusted. It was not left to Congress to create it by law, for the States could hardly be expected to confide in the impartiality of a tribunal created exclusively by the General Government without any participation on their part. And as the performance of its duty would sometimes come in conflict with individual ambition or interests and powerful political combinations, an act of Congress establishing such a tribunal might be repealed in order to establish another more subservient to the predominant political influences or excited passions of the day. This tribunal, therefore, was erected, and the powers of which we have spoken conferred upon it, not by the Federal Government, but by the people of the States, who formed and adopted that Government and conferred upon it all the powers, legislative, executive, and judicial, which it now possesses. And in order to secure its independence and enable it faithfully and firmly to perform its duty, it engrafted it upon the Constitution itself, and declared that this court should have appellate power in all cases arising under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So long, therefore, as this Constitution shall endure, this tribunal must exist with it, deciding in the peaceful forms of judicial proceeding the angry and irritating controversies between sovereignties which, in other countries, have been determined by the arbitrament of force. - - - - - Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office. Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects. The use of the term "shall" connotes the absence of discretion. The Congress was mandated to create a Supreme Court. The "supreme law of the land" includes the Constitution, laws and treaties. The Supreme Court is given judicial power over all cases arising under the the Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made. This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. Treaties and Federal laws are equal and each is subordinate to the Constitution. - - - - - - - - - - Constitutional Law, Principles and Policies, 2 Ed., Erwin Chemerinsky, 2002 - - - - - Ibid. 376 - - - - - Ibid. at 275-6. - - - - - The Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice Stevens, declared this statutory increase in presidential power unconstitutional. Justice Stevens explained that the president, by exercising the line-item veto, was changing a law adopted by Congress; the final version of the law is diffferent after the veto than what Congress passed. The Court concluded that the Constitution does not allow such presidential authority. Justice Stevens wrote: "In both legal and practical effect, the President has amended two Acts of Congress by repealing a portion of each. '[R]epeal of statutes, no less than enactment, must conform with Art. I.' There is no provision in the Constitution that authorizes the President to enact, to amend, or to repeal statutes." The Court emphasized that the procedures for enacting and vetoing laws contained in the Constitution must be strictly adhered to and that any changes must come from a constitutional amendment, not legislative action. Ibid. at 336-7 - - - - - * * * Treaties, however, cannot violate the Constitution. In Reid v. Covert, the Court held that American civilian dependents of military personnel in a foreign country must be accorded a trial that meets the dictates of the Constitution. Justice Black explained that "no agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the congress, or on any other branch of Government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution." Ibid. at 361 - - - - - Constitutional Law, 6 Ed., Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black Letter Series, West Group, 2003, 68 - - - - - Ibid. at 156 - - - - - Yet the Court found that it could not grant the remedy in an original action because it was not within the jurisdiction fixed for the Court by Article III. The opinion interpreted a section of the Judiciary Act of 1789 as placing this action within its jurisdiction but found that this law conflicted with the Constitution. Marshall concluded by holding that the Supreme Court had the power to declare such a law to be invalid as a violation of the Constitution. Constitutional Law, 4 Ed., John E. Nowak and Ronald D. Rotunda, West Publishing Co., 1991, p. 2 - - - - - That the treaty power of the United States extends to all proper subjects of negotiation between our government and the governments of other nations, is clear.... The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments.... It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the government or in that of one of the states, or a cession or any portion of the territory of the latter without its consent.... Ibid. at 210 - - - - - American Constitutional Law, 3 ed., Vol. I, West Publishing Co., Laurence H. Tribe, p. 647 - - - - - Ibid. at 647 - - - - -
The Supreme Court upholds national prohibition, 1920 A primary source by Wayne B. Wheeler The Supreme Court Decision on National Prohibition, by Wayne B. Wheeler, advocate for the Anti-Saloon League, explaining the Supreme Court's decision in the National Prohibition Cases, 1920. (Library of Congress Printed Ephemera Collection) After more than a century of activism, the temperance movement achieved its signal victory with the ratification of the Eighteenth Amendment to the US Constitution in 1919. The amendment abolished “the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors,” and provided for “concurrent” federal and state authority to enforce the ban. It was controversial from its inception: it did not define “intoxicating liquors,” it did not specifically forbid the purchase of alcohol, it established “concurrent” state and federal enforcement but did not provide any means for enforcement, and its constitutionality was in question. To provide for enforcement of the amendment, a powerful lobbying group called the Anti-Saloon League, led by its top lawyer, Wayne B. Wheeler, devised the National Prohibition Act, also known as the Volstead Act. Though the law’s wording was confusing, it defined intoxicating liquors as anything over 0.5% alcohol by volume. It also laid the groundwork for federal and state responsibility to prosecute violators. President Woodrow Wilson’s veto of the law was swiftly overridden by Congress in October 1919. The constitutionality of the new law and the amendment itself were challenged in a series of legal cases that were brought before the US Supreme Court as the National Prohibition Cases (1920). In this document, Wheeler reviewed the meaning of the Court’s decision to uphold the law: The decision will go down in history as one of the great judicial landmarks in the progress of our civilization. There will be an effort in Congress and in the State Legislatures to nullify the law, and we will meet the practical problem of law enforcement for years to come, but this decision will be the judicial foundation upon which prohibition will rest through the ages. Thirteen years later, the Twenty-first Amendment was ratified, overturning the Eighteenth Amendment and ending national prohibition in 1933.
No they would only need a line or two if that was the intention. Something like this. There shall be a Supreme Court. It shall be the final arbitrator of the meaning of the constituon when disputes arise. Cases shall be tried in lower courts first that are set up by the congress. Then someone smarter then me a few more words. That's it. It isn't there. But thanks for admitting that it isn't there (indirectly). I think even if you don't agree you should understand why some people disagree with you on this. For that reason that that power isn't directly mentioned in the constitution.
The challenge was rejected. You might mention that part. Citing a failed desperate grope argument of counsel, thumpingly rejected by the court, is not quite like citing legal precedent, or an approving recognized legal text. In this case, a brewery owner was desperate to stop prohibition from going into effect. In Feigenspan, the lead National Prohibition case, District Judge Rellstab whote in his opinion, which was upheld by SCOTUS: Plaintiff alleges it is invalid. First, because of its subject-matter. At the outset let us keep clearly in mind that the issue here relates solely to power—the power to amend the United States Constitution. In discussing the challenges of the plaintiffs articulated under this head, that fact must not be forgotten. The other attacks upon the amendment, to be considered under separate heads, relate to the use made of the power, if it be found to exist. If the plaintiff, is right in its contention of lack of power to insert the Eighteenth Amendment into the United States Constitution because of its subject-matter, it follows that there is no way to incorporate it and others of like character, into the National organic law, except through revolution. This, the plaintiff concedes, is the inevitable conclusion of its contention. This is so startling a proposition that the judicial mind may be pardoned for not readily cceding to it, and for insisting that only the most convincing reasons will justify its acceptance. [...] The Eighteenth Amendment but carries forward into the national Constitution what had already been inserted into the organic law of the greater number of States, and if the reasons herein expressed are sound there is no limitation in the United States Constitution, express or implied, that forbids its incorporation therein by action pursuant to Art. V thereof. - - - - - Live and learn. Another amendment works. It is the only thing that repeals an amendment to the Constitution. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/2/409/case.html Hayburn’s Case, 2 US 409, 414 (1792) http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx U.S. Supreme Court website: The Court and Constitutional Interpretation The Federalist No. 81 May 28, 1788 [excerpt] These considerations teach us to applaud the wisdom of those States who have committed the judicial power, in the last resort, not to a part of the legislature, but to distinct and independent bodies of men. Contrary to the supposition of those who have represented the plan of the convention, in this respect, as novel and unprecedented, it is but a copy of the constitutions of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia; and the preference which has been given to those models is highly to be commended. It is not true, in the second place, that the Parliament of Great Britain, or the legislatures of the particular States, can rectify the exceptionable decisions of their respective courts, in any other sense than might be done by a future legislature of the United States. The theory, neither of the British, nor the State constitutions, authorizes the revisal of a judicial sentence by a legislative act. Nor is there any thing in the proposed Constitution, more than in either of them, by which it is forbidden. In the former, as well as in the latter, the impropriety of the thing, on the general principles of law and reason, is the sole obstacle. A legislature, without exceeding its province, cannot reverse a determination once made in a particular case; though it may prescribe a new rule for future cases. This is the principle, and it applies in all its consequences, exactly in the same manner and extent, to the State governments, as to the national government now under consideration. Not the least difference can be pointed out in any view of the subject.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWhen SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
#64. To: A K A Stone (#63)
I disagree.
U.S. Supreme Court
#65. To: hondo68 (#60)
(Edited)
When a law is declared unconstitutional, it is nullified and becomes unenforceable. Sometimes Congress quickly rewrites the law to bring it into compliance with the Constitution.
#66. To: nolu chan, hondo68 (#62)
When a law is declared unconstitutional, it is nullified and becomes unenforceable. Sometimes Congress quickly rewrites the law to bring it into compliance with the Constitution.
#67. To: hondo68 (#60)
(Edited)
Direct Action (Cliven Bundy).
Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, whose states-rights battle with the government to graze his cattle on public lands thrust him into the national spotlight, will be held accountable for the armed standoff his fight triggered with federal officials, Interior Secretary Sally Jewell says.
#68. To: A K A Stone, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#63)
(Edited)
libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...gi?ArtNum=40617&Disp=2#C2
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
#69. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#68)
Stone correctly disagrees. -
#70. To: A K A Stone, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#69)
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
In nolu chans defense. I believe him to be stating the way it is actually working right now. Not what we wish or the way we think it should be. --- A K A Stone
#71. To: tpaine (#68)
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
#72. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#71)
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
In the case of a Constitutional Amendment, it "shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by Congress."
Fro the instant an Amendment is declared ratified, it is an integral part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts. The notion that Congress can legislate or SCOTUS can rule any part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional is absurd.
When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
The Judicial Branch is not some superfluous body which issues irrelevant opinions for all to ignore
#73. To: tpaine (#72)
Fro[m] the instant an Amendment is declared ratified, it is an integral part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts. The notion that Congress can legislate or SCOTUS can rule any part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional is absurd.
It's absurd to you, granted. But you can't refute the fact of the supremacy clause.
The clause of Art. VI of the U.S. Constitution which declares that all laws made in pursuance of the Constitution and all treaties made under the authority of the United States shall be the "supreme law of the land" and shall enjoy legal superiority over any conflicting provision of a State constitution or law.
SUPREMACY CLAUSE popular title for Article VI, Section [2] of the United States Constitution, which is the main foundation of the federal government's power over the states, providing in effect that the "acts of the Federal Government are operative as supreme law throughout the Union. They are self-executing, since they prescribe rules enforceable in all courts of the land. The states have no power to impede, burden, or in any manner control the operation of the laws enacted by the Government of the nation. . . . [T]he full import of the Supremacy Clause was made clear after John Marshall became Chief Justice. In the Marshall interpretation, the clause meant essentially two things: (1) the states may not interfere in any manner with the functioning of the Federal Government; and (2) federal action (whether in the form of a statute, a treaty, a court decision, or an administrative act), if itself constitutional, must prevail over state action inconsistent therewith." Schwarz, Constitutional Law 48 (2d ed. 1979).
The Government of the United States is of the latter description. The powers of the Legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the Constitution is written. To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may at any time be passed by those intended to be restrained? The distinction between a government with limited and unlimited powers is abolished if those limits do not confine the persons on whom they are imposed, and if acts prohibited and acts allowed are of equal obligation. It is a proposition too plain to be contested that the Constitution controls any legislative act repugnant to it, or that the Legislature may alter the Constitution by an ordinary act.
#74. To: nolu chan, y'all (#73)
When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
#75. To: nolu chan (#73)
#76. To: tpaine (#74)
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself.
#77. To: tpaine (#74)
ot true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself.
#78. To: A K A Stone (#76)
Mr Chan I believe you should concede that point.
#79. To: A K A Stone (#76)
I'm sure Tpaine also thinks that there should be some check.
#80. To: nolu chan (#77)
When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
You can not and never have cited any legal authority that the judiciary can strike down a constitutional amendment or any other part of the Constitution.
Your position continues to be absurd.
#81. To: A K A Stone, tpaine, nolu chan, *The Two Parties ARE the Same* (#76)
#82. To: tpaine (#80)
When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
#83. To: hondo68, A K A Stone, tpaine (#81)
Congress can impeach and remove supreme justices, and also the president.
#84. To: nolu chan (#79)
There is always a check. If the people think the court has erred in constitutional interpretation, they can amend the Constitution to overturn the holding of the Court.
#85. To: nolu chan (#78)
unsupportable legal absurdity.
#86. To: nolu chan (#78)
Mr Chan I believe you should concede that point. No. T
#87. To: nolu chan, hondo68, Y'ALL (#82)
Chan -- When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
hondo68 posted at (#42): --- Supreme court OPINIONS are NOT final.
This seems to be an argument about terminology. --- Court opinions are considered final when there is no further possibility of judicial proceedings upon the case in the issuing court unless it is reversed or set aside by a higher court. SCOTUS opinions cannot be appealed to a higher court. They are considered final. ---- The holding can always be overturned by a ruling in a subsequent case or by a change in the law it relied upon. ----- That does not change the final opinion in a prior case, but changes the court's interpretation of a legal point, and sets a new precedent. The 13th Amendment did not change the final opinion in Dred Scott but changed the law, invalidating Scott as binding precedent based upon a law that no longer exists. ----- The SCOTUS opinion is final, but the legal issue may be revisited and a new opinion may set a new precedent. The opinion is final but the holding may be challenged in subsequent cases.
#88. To: tpaine, A K A Stone (#87)
Chan -- When SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, their opinion prevails as to what the Constitution says.
Not true. -And your opinion is not supported within the constitution itself.
#89. To: nolu chan (#88)
Your opinion is supported by nothing at all. Repeating an absurdity over and over makes it no less absurd.
Cite the case where a constitutional amendment has ever been struck down by SCOTUS. Cite the case where SCOTUS has ever claimed such authority.
Cite the case where a SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution has been overturned by congressional legislation.
Cite any recognized legal authority to support your imaginary concept that SCOTUS has struck down a constitutional amendment or claimed the authority to strike down a constitutional amendment. --- Is your source nonexistent or so embarrassing that you refuse to identify it? --- Don't be bashful, cite any recognized legal authority, preferably one that is a lawyer and not a wingnut with a blog.
#90. To: A K A Stone (#86)
Then you should be able to quote from the constitution to make your point.
#91. To: tpaine (#89)
Unable to answer a reasonable question, you repeat your "absurd" allegations, and resume your barracks type lawyer leading questions: --
#92. To: nolu chan, aka stone, Y'ALL (#90)
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."
#93. To: nolu chan (#91)
You assume this is absurd but run and hide from citing the source of your absurdities?
(From #52) --- When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
#94. To: tpaine (#92)
#95. To: tpaine (#93)
nolu chan erroneously claims: --
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
(From #52) --- When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
Your quote above, from #52, is not absurd, and I certainly never said it was..
#96. To: nolu chan (#95)
(Edited)
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
hondo68 posted at (#42): --- Supreme court OPINIONS are NOT final.
This seems to be an argument about terminology. --- Court opinions are considered final when there is no further possibility of judicial proceedings upon the case in the issuing court unless it is reversed or set aside by a higher court. SCOTUS opinions cannot be appealed to a higher court. They are considered final. ---- The holding can always be overturned by a ruling in a subsequent case or by a change in the law it relied upon. ----- That does not change the final opinion in a prior case, but changes the court's interpretation of a legal point, and sets a new precedent. The 13th Amendment did not change the final opinion in Dred Scott but changed the law, invalidating Scott as binding precedent based upon a law that no longer exists. ----- The SCOTUS opinion is final, but the legal issue may be revisited and a new opinion may set a new precedent. The opinion is final but the holding may be challenged in subsequent cases.
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
#97. To: tpaine (#96)
Which I mistakenly thought was made at #52, seeing that it says 'virtually' the same thing.
nolu chan erroneously claims: --
When SCOTUS rules on a matter of constitutional law, the legislature cannot lawfully legislate contrary to the SCOTUS interpretation of the Constitution.
“That the duties assigned to the circuit courts by this act are not of that description, and that the act itself does not appear to contemplate them as such, inasmuch as it subjects the decisions of these courts, made pursuant to those duties, first to the consideration and suspension of the Secretary at War and then to the revision of the legislature, whereas by the Constitution, neither the Secretary at War nor any other Executive officer, nor even the legislature, is authorized to sit as a court of errors on the judicial acts or opinions of this court.”
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions are only rarely altered by constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court.
#98. To: nolu chan (#97)
What is erroneous? The legislature cannot overrule SCOTUS when it rules on a constitutional issue.
#99. To: tpaine (#98)
[tpaine #98] Your opinion, and that of the court, is erroneous.
[nc] Fro[m] the instant an Amendment is declared ratified, it is an integral part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts. The notion that Congress can legislate or SCOTUS can rule any part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional is absurd.
“That the duties assigned to the circuit courts by this act are not of that description, and that the act itself does not appear to contemplate them as such, inasmuch as it subjects the decisions of these courts, made pursuant to those duties, first to the consideration and suspension of the Secretary at War and then to the revision of the legislature, whereas by the Constitution, neither the Secretary at War nor any other Executive officer, nor even the legislature, is authorized to sit as a court of errors on the judicial acts or opinions of this court.”
"[A]ll those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void."
Quoting from Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. at 177. Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system.
5. That amendment, by lawful proposal and ratification, has become a part of the Constitution, and must be respected and given effect the same as other provisions of that instrument.
The language of the Constitution by which this power is granted is too plain to admit of doubt or to need comment. It declares that “this Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be passed in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”
ARTICLE 3
ARTICLE 6
U.S. Const. Art. 6, Sec. 2 One other provision that expressly relates to federalism is the Supremacy Clause found in Article VI of the Constitution. It declares that the "Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land." This provision sets up a clearly hierarchical relationship between the federal government and the states. Practically, the effect is that state and local laws are deemed preempted if they conflict with federal law."
As the Supreme Court declared: "[U]nder the Supremacy Clause, from which our pre-emption doctrine is derived, 'any state law, however clearly within a State's acknowledged power, which interferes with or is contrary to federal law, must yield.'"
The Constitution gives the president the authority, "by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make treaties provided two thirds of the Senators present concur." These treaties are the law of the land and prevail over all conflicting state laws. If there is a conflict between a treaty and a federal statute, the one adopted last in time controls. The Court has explained that when a statute and a treaty "relate to the same subject, the courts will always endeavor to construe them so as to give effect to both, if that can be done without violating the language of either; but if the two are inconsistent, the one last in date will control the other."
[Underline added] A related issue is the extent to which Congress, by statute, may increase presidential powers beyond what are found in the Constitution. In Clinton v. City of New York, the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of a federal statute which created authority for a presidential line-item veto. The statute empowered the president to veto (or more precisely to "cancel") particular parts of appropriation bills while allowing the rest to go into effect. Congress could overturn such a veto by a majority vote of both houses.
Treaties, agreements between the United States and a foreign country that are negotiated by the president and ratified by the Senate, are permitted unless they violate the Constitution. It is firmly established that if there is a conflict between a treaty and a federal statute, the one adopted last in time controls.
In Marbury v. Madison (1803), the Supreme Court held § 13 of the Judiciary Act of 1789 unconstitutional. The Act was read by Justice Marshall, perhaps erroneously, to enlarge the Supreme Court's original jurisdiction beyond the limits defined in Art. III of the Constitution. Since the constitution prescribes the powers delegated by the people to the national govenrment, a congressional act contrary to the Constitution is invalid. The Constitution is supreme over ordinary federal or state law under the Supremacy Clause of Art. VI.
Art. VI provides that all treaties which are made "under the authority of the United States" are the supreme law of the land. They prevail, as do Executive Agreements, over inconsistent state law. Treaties and Executive Agreements are subject to constitutional limitations. Reid v. Covert (1957). Treaties and Acts of Congress are on a par, i.e., the last in time controls. The Chinese Exclusion Case (1889).
On February 24, 1803, Chief Justice Marshall delivered the opinion of the Supreme Court in Marbury v. Madison. In the opinion the court held that Marbury had a right to his judicial commission. In so doing the Court found that the executive was subject to certain legal and constitutional restraints that could be enforced by the judiciary.
This clause [The Supremacy Clause] at one time had been interpreted by legal authorities to suggest that treaties were equal to the Constitution. As a consequence the theory developed that said that treaties were not subject to any constitutional limitations.....
Quoting Mr. Justice Field of the Supreme Court in De Geofroy v. Riggs. If there were any remaining doubt on the issue whether there is any outer limit to the treaty-making power, that question was closed resoundingly in Reid v. Covert, where a plurality of the Supreme Court, in holding American civilian dependents of overseas military personnel entitled to civilian trial, stated that neither a treaty nor an executive agreement "can confer power on the Congress, or on any other branch of government, which is free fom the restraints of the Constitution."
Footnote 18
See also The Cherokee tobacco, 78 U.S. (11 Wall.) 616, 620-21 (1871)(dictum) ("a treaty cannot change the constitution or be held valid if it be in violation of that instrument").
#100. To: nolu chan (#99)
(Edited)
[nc] Fro[m] the instant an Amendment is declared ratified, it is an integral part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts. The notion that Congress can legislate or SCOTUS can rule any part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional is absurd.
#101. To: nolu chan (#90)
If that were true, the Constitution would not be a very short framework, it would be a very lengthy legal code.
#102. To: tpaine (#100)
The constitutionality of the new law and the amendment itself were challenged in a series of legal cases that were brought before the US Supreme Court as the National Prohibition Cases (1920).
Section 1 of the Eighteenth Amendment (which alone concerns us at present) it will be noted, is not a delegation of power to be exercised, but a mandate operative by its own terms. If valid, the incorporation of it into the United States Constitution, prohibits the manufacture of, and all dealings in, intoxicating liquors for beverage purposes throughout the United States and all the territory subject to its jurisdiction. For brevity, the transactions thereby prohibited will be hereinafter referred to as the "liquor traffic" or "trafficking in liquors." The prohibition covers both intrastate and interstate business in such beverages.
Thirteen years later, the Twenty-first Amendment was ratified, overturning the Eighteenth Amendment and ending national prohibition in 1933.
“That the duties assigned to the circuit courts by this act are not of that description, and that the act itself does not appear to contemplate them as such, inasmuch as it subjects the decisions of these courts, made pursuant to those duties, first to the consideration and suspension of the Secretary at War and then to the revision of the legislature, whereas by the Constitution, neither the Secretary at War nor any other Executive officer, nor even the legislature, is authorized to sit as a court of errors on the judicial acts or opinions of this court.”
When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken.
Publius
[Alexander Hamilton] But perhaps the force of the objection may be thought to consist in the particular organization of the Supreme Court; in its being composed of a distinct body of magistrates, instead of being one of the branches of the legislature, as in the government of Great Britain and that of the State. To insist upon this point, the authors of the objection must renounce the meaning they have labored to annex to the celebrated maxim, requiring a separation of the departments of power. It shall, nevertheless, be conceded to them, agreeably to the interpretation given to that maxim in the course of these papers, that it is not violated by vesting the ultimate power of judging in a PART of the legislative body. But though this be not an absolute violation of that excellent rule, yet it verges so nearly upon it, as on this account alone to be less eligible than the mode preferred by the convention. From a body which had even a partial agency in passing bad laws, we could rarely expect a disposition to temper and moderate them in the application. The same spirit which had operated in making them, would be too apt in interpreting them; still less could it be expected that men who had infringed the Constitution in the character of legislators, would be disposed to repair the breach in the character of judges. Nor is this all. Every reason which recommends the tenure of good behavior for judicial offices, militates against placing the judiciary power, in the last resort, in a body composed of men chosen for a limited period. There is an absurdity in referring the determination of causes, in the first instance, to judges of permanent standing; in the last, to those of a temporary and mutable constitution. And there is a still greater absurdity in subjecting the decisions of men, selected for their knowledge of the laws, acquired by long and laborious study, to the revision and control of men who, for want of the same advantage, cannot but be deficient in that knowledge. The members of the legislature will rarely be chosen with a view to those qualifications which fit men for the stations of judges; and as, on this account, there will be great reason to apprehend all the ill consequences of defective information, so, on account of the natural propensity of such bodies to party divisions, there will be no less reason to fear that the pestilential breath of faction may poison the fountains of justice. The habit of being continually marshalled on opposite sides will be too apt to stifle the voice both of law and of equity.
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