[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"International court’s attack on Israel a sign of the free world’s moral collapse"

"Pete Hegseth Is Right for the DOD"

"Why Our Constitution Secures Liberty, Not Democracy"

Woodworking and Construction Hacks

"CNN: Reporters Were Crying and Hugging in the Hallways After Learning of Matt Gaetz's AG Nomination"

"NEW: Democrat Officials Move to Steal the Senate Race in Pennsylvania, Admit to Breaking the Law"

"Pete Hegseth Is a Disruptive Choice for Secretary of Defense. That’s a Good Thing"

Katie Britt will vote with the McConnell machine

Battle for Senate leader heats up — Hit pieces coming from Thune and Cornyn.

After Trump’s Victory, There Can Be No Unity Without A Reckoning

Vivek Ramaswamy, Dark-horse Secretary of State Candidate

Megyn Kelly has a message for Democrats. Wait for the ending.

Trump to choose Tom Homan as his “Border Czar”

"Trump Shows Demography Isn’t Destiny"

"Democrats Get a Wake-Up Call about How Unpopular Their Agenda Really Is"

Live Election Map with ticker shows every winner.

Megyn Kelly Joins Trump at His Final PA Rally of 2024 and Explains Why She's Supporting Him

South Carolina Lawmaker at Trump Rally Highlights Story of 3-Year-Old Maddie Hines, Killed by Illegal Alien

GOP Demands Biden, Harris Launch Probe into Twice-Deported Illegal Alien Accused of Killing Grayson Davis

Previously-Deported Illegal Charged With Killing Arkansas Children’s Hospital Nurse in Horror DUI Crash

New Data on Migrant Crime Rates Raises Eyebrows, Alarms

Thousands of 'potentially fraudulent voter registration applications' Uncovered, Stopped in Pennsylvania

Michigan Will Count Ballot of Chinese National Charged with Voting Illegally

"It Did Occur" - Kentucky County Clerk Confirms Voting Booth 'Glitch'' Shifted Trump Votes To Kamala

Legendary Astronaut Buzz Aldrin 'wholeheartedly' Endorses Donald Trump

Liberal Icon Naomi Wolf Endorses Trump: 'He's Being More Inclusive'

(Washed Up Has Been) Singer Joni Mitchell Screams 'F*** Trump' at Hollywood Bowl

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

The Left's War On Christians
See other The Left's War On Christians Articles

Title: Will Churches Be Forced To Conduct Gay Weddings?
Source: www.slate.com
URL Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_ ... on_t_be_forced_to_conduct.html
Published: Jun 29, 2015
Author: Emily Bazelon
Post Date: 2015-06-29 13:51:18 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 5611
Comments: 27

Will Churches Be Forced To Conduct Gay Weddings?

Not a chance. That’s just the scare tactic conservative groups use to frighten voters.

By Emily Bazelon

Last June, Denmark’s parliament passed a law requiring churches to conduct gay marriage ceremonies. Priests can opt out, but if they do, the local bishop has to find a replacement to conduct the ceremony. When Maryland voters legalized gay marriage in November, a conservative friend sent me a link to the Denmark story to explain why he’d voted against his state’s ballot initiative. He says gay marriage doesn’t bother him, but he’s convinced that as it takes root, churches and other religious institutions will be forced to embrace it. Emily Bazelon Emily Bazelon

Emily Bazelon is a staff writer at the New York Times Magazine and the author of Sticks and Stones.

This objection makes me apoplectic. We are not Denmark! We have a deep-rooted, constitutional division between church and state and an equally deep-rooted constitutional protection of freedom of religion, which make us different from any other country. And the history of how our courts and government have safeguarded those religious rights weigh definitively on the side of allowing churches to refuse to perform weddings for gay couples for as long as they so choose. I’m not saying it’s a good thing for churches to do that. I’m saying that the law balances the civil rights of gay people against the civil rights of religious groups—and in that contest, the churches (and mosques and synagogues) win.

In theory, the government could direct the behavior of churches by mandating that they perform gay unions or punishing those who don’t by denying them benefits—in particular, tax-exempt status. After all, religious institutions rely on not paying taxes, so this is important to them. But the government has never used either power to tell religious groups who they have to marry. “After the Supreme Court struck down state bans on interracial marriage in Loving v. Virginia in 1967, there was never the suggestion that private religious groups that wouldn’t perform interracial marriages would be shut down,” Harvard Law School Dean Martha Minow points out. “Or lose their tax-exempt status.” ADVERTISING

In a 2007 article in the Boston College Law Review, Minow asked this key question: “How can a pluralistic society commit to both equality and tolerance of religious differences?” The answer, she argued, lies in exactly how we create exemptions to civil rights laws for religious groups. She showed how this unfolded historically. After Loving, the Internal Revenue Service started denying tax exemptions to private schools in Mississippi that discriminated against blacks. At the time, Bob Jones University, in South Carolina, did not admit African Americans because it saw the Bible as barring interracial dating and marriage. In the 1970s, Bob Jones started letting in black applicants but said that students who dated or married across racial lines would be expelled. The IRS decided that the school would lose its tax exemption. Congress introduced 13 bills to overturn the IRS decision, Minow writes, but none passed. In 1982, the Supreme Court sided with the IRS against Bob Jones. The court said that the government’s interest in eradicating racial discrimination was fundamental and that trumped Bob Jones’ claim that the IRS was interfering with its exercise of freedom of religion.

And on this single point—religious institutions can’t discriminate on the basis of race and remain tax exempt—the courts have held fast, because on this issue the country has reached a consensus. Minow points out that Chief Justice John Roberts said he supported the court’s Bob Jones decision at his 2005 confirmation hearing. Neither party wants to defend blatant racial discrimination any longer. In fact, Bob Jones ended its ban on interracial dating a decade ago. (The university hasn’t reapplied for its tax exemption, but an affiliated academy and museum are tax exempt.)

But the same rule most decidedly does not apply to religious groups that discriminate against women or gay people. In 2002, a woman named Susan Rockwell challenged the tax exemption of the Catholic Church because it doesn’t allow women to become priests. She lost. That’s because of the “ministerial exception” to anti-discrimination laws. Churches, synagogues, and mosques get to pick their clergy, end of story. Actually, their exemption to sex-discrimination laws extends much further, to a Catholic school that fired a pregnant, unmarried teacher and even to a Christian school that turned down a teaching applicant because she had school-aged children. The churches affiliated with the Christian school decreed that mothers shouldn’t work outside the home. And that was enough to trump this woman’s employment rights—an exception you could drive a truck through, if you ask me. But the Supreme Court let it stand.

In cases like these brought by gay people, the first question is whether state law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, because federal law does not. So in Kentucky, which has no such law, a Baptist social-services agency was allowed to fire a therapist for being a lesbian. I’m happy to say I don’t think this would fly in the 21 states (plus the District of Columbia) that do protect the rights of gay people. But remember, we are still a long way from churches being forced to marry gay couples or hire gay ministers. We’re talking about teachers and social workers who work for religiously affiliated institutions—in states that have chosen to protect them from discrimination.

When states have laws that prohibit anti-gay discrimination in spaces open to the public, they generally exempt “actual places of worship, the organizations they operate, and certain private organizations,” according to this 2012 law review article. So it’s true that in 2007, New Jersey denied a tax exemption to a boardwalk pavilion in Ocean Grove owned by a Methodist group after two lesbian couples were rejected when they asked to hold civil union ceremonies there. But this was a beachfront property, not a church—and 99 percent of the group’s land, taken as a whole, retained its tax exemption.

That’s why the story of an anti-discrimination ordinance in the city of Hutchinson, Kansas, makes me sad. When the law was proposed last spring, religious groups railed that it would require churches to rent buildings to gay couples “for drag parties.” In fact, said Chad Graber, executive board member of the Hutchinson chapter of the Kansas Equality Coalition, this could only have occurred if a church made a building publicly available—if it opened up a banquet hall, for example, as a public space rather than only renting it to members. Because of the backlash, the city council reworked the proposal, leaving out public spaces entirely, and in June put into effect only limited protections against being fired or evicted for being gay. (The council also took transgender people off the LGBT list.)

But by then, a battle was raging. A group called Awaken Kansas campaigned to torpedo the measure in the November election. “They told people pastors would have to perform gay marriages,” Graber told me. “The churches were completely exempt, but they used it as a scare tactic.” In November, local voters rejected the ordinance.

It’s just wrong to spook voters about gay rights by arguing that gay people are coming for their churches. It’s not gonna happen. Not just as a tactical matter, but also as a legal one. If that ever changes, it will be because we’re as united about the pernicious nature of anti-gay discrimination as we are about racial discrimination. Or until no one wants to belong to a church that doesn’t perform same-sex weddings, any more than they’d want to be in a church that forbids interracial ceremonies. Maybe we should be there. But I don’t need to tell you we’re not.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 17.

#8. To: CZ82 (#0)

So far the response that I've seen from Orthodox Christian clergy is to announce that they will no longer sign any sort of government marriage license / certificate.

My own parish Priest announced that he had been instructed by our Bishop to "revert to the Church's marriage practices prior to the Edict of Milan", i.e. conduct the Marriage Sacrament in regards to government regulations in the same manner as the Church did so prior to St. Constantine issuing his Edict which ended the official government pagan persecution of the Church.

In other words, parishioners seeking to get married would need to go to a Justice of the Peace or similar process for a government-recognized marriage, and then come to the Church for the Sacrament of Marriage.

Unlike the situation with the problem that Redleghunter described in regards to a particular non-denominational Church not necessarily having a clear definition of who is a member, the Orthodox Church has extensive Canon Law in regards to who is a member and what the requirements are to receive the Marriage Sacrament. There obviously are not any "gay marriages", since the entire idea of such a thing is a pretty modern one.

But for my various Protestant friends in the forums, if your pastor has not yet devised a strategy to deal with this problem, hopefully the above might engender some ideas. In some cases, they might need to go into some uncomfortable territory if they are of the "non-creedal" sort of congregation, but at least to me it seems to be the clearest way to lessen the chance of a successful lawsuit by the Gaystappo by simply making it plain that your Church is only offering a spiritual service and that people seeking the legal benefits of a government sanctioned wedding will need to do that separately from the Church's blessing of the marriage.

In the long run, it might save such congregations additional headaches if they make it plain what the Biblical standards for a Christian wedding are as well -- and that will mean on occasion even a straight couple might get a "no" from the pastor if they are not being obedient to God's teachings on the matter and unwilling to repent.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-06-29   20:58:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Orthodoxa (#8)

So far the response that I've seen from Orthodox Christian clergy is to announce that they will no longer sign any sort of government marriage license / certificate.

And there was never any real requirement to sign a secular, government required marriage license.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-06-29   21:11:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: buckeroo (#9)

And there was never any real requirement to sign a secular, government required marriage license.

Indeed not, but Obama's actions still are intended to and still will cause widespread damage.

1) In some cases where it isn't clear as to who is a member / eligible for marriage, some congregations will still potentially be open to lawsuits.

2) Some congregations might choose to openly defy Obama's dictates with the intention of the pastor / members being hauled off to court.

3) It reverses what was the norm for millennia. Christian marriages will be the "unofficial" ones while "gay marriages" will be immediately recognized as official by the government. It will send the long-term message to folks in society who equate "government-recognized" with virtuous that it is the perverted ceremonies that are the virtuous ones.

4) The Left will use this as a stepping stone to enact gay adoption, and teaching in public schools that sodomy is something good.

5) As is already becoming apparent on places like Facebook as well as what happened in Canada after they created "gay marriage" there, it will soon be all but treated as a "hate crime" to simply repeat what Christianity has always taught about this.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-06-29   21:30:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Orthodoxa (#10)

The entire idea is separation of church and state.

If a homosexual couple can not abide by a church's covenant or operate within their belief system, they can be denied marriage rites because of that fact. The US government or other governments can not compel marriage within a church against the dictates of a church as it is contrary to the first paragraph of my post.

It can not happen in America, PERIOD.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-06-29   21:46:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: buckeroo (#11)

It can not happen in America, PERIOD.

Correction: It cannot happen in America when the politicians are restrained by law and the Constitution.

From immigration to various other issues, Obama has already demonstrated overwhelmingly that he does not and will not obey the law or abide by the Constitution. And the GOP has made it pretty clear that they will only offer token resistance in the form of speeches, photo-ops, and similar stunts with no true substance.

The Supreme Court just ruled today that states cannot require proof of citizenship for voting. America is just about finished.

In my own circle, it is pretty telling that various first-generation Orthodox Christians either from the Middle East where they had Muslim persecution or immigrants from former Soviet states seem to be preparing for government- sponsored persecution. They've seen it before, and say it looks like its' going to happen here.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-06-29   21:57:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Orthodoxa (#12)

The Supreme Court just ruled today that states cannot require proof of citizenship for voting.

Good post and generally, I agree. Please provide a link about the USSC decision you just announced, as I am not aware of it.

Thanx before I can get around tuit.

buckeroo

buckeroo  posted on  2015-06-29   22:07:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: buckeroo (#13)

Please provide a link about the USSC decision you just announced, as I am not aware of it.

http://www3.atr.rollcall.com/supreme-court-victory-for-voting-rights-advocates/? dcz=

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-06-29   22:13:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Orthodoxa (#14)

I don't think you understand the detail. Here it is:

Both Kansas and Arizona have state laws that require applicants to prove their citizenship when applying to vote with state forms (for state or federal elections). But the U.S. EAC denied the states’ requests to have their citizenship laws applied when would-be voters use the standardized federal form.

States can not override federal requirements.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-06-29   22:18:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: buckeroo (#15)

States can not override federal requirements.

But the actual "realpolitik" result of this ruling is that illegal aliens will have a loophole to use to vote in federal elections, and the court knows this. The Ruling Class desperately wants to replace the American populace with an ignorant and compliant 3rd world population.

It is part of Obama's overall strategy of "cultural cleansing". In the one part of the country that still tends to vote GOP, they are busy tearing down statues and other parts of the history of the past white culture. Those toppled statues won't just remain vacant spaces, they'll be replaced with crap like the Plaza of Mexican Heroes that the government set up in Dallas.

This is coupled with an open assault upon the religious right, and this attack intends to marginise conservative Christians.

And now with wide-open loopholes where Mexican invaders will be able to vote in our elections as long as they just follow the single step of using a federal form instead of a state one, they can transform states like Texas into ones that "vote" just as reliably Democrat as California.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-06-29   22:59:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 17.

        There are no replies to Comment # 17.


End Trace Mode for Comment # 17.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com