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Title: Washington fears losing Greece to Moscow
Source:
Financial Times
URL Source: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3f0b ... 23-11e5-8201-cbdb03d71480.html
Published: Jun 21, 2015
Author: Geoff Dyer
Post Date: 2015-06-22 06:45:43 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 1690
Comments: 26
Throughout the prolonged showdown between Greece and its creditors, the Obama administration has largely sat on the sidelines, issuing the occasional warning about the potential economic impact of a default. But with Greece now on the verge of bankruptcy, the US is also beginning to worry about the political fallout from a deeper crisis and the potential for Russia to gain increased influence over a Nato member. As Washington tries to maintain a united western front in support of sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, a Greek default could provide Moscow an opportunity to sow new divisions among America’s European allies. “You can easily see how geopolitically this would be a gift to Russia,” says Sebastian Mallaby at the Council on Foreign Relations. “You do not want Europe to have to deal with a Greece that is a member of Nato but which all of a sudden hates the west and is cosying up to Russia.” Greece was regarded as a frontline state against the advance of Soviet-backed communism during the cold war. Its EU accession in 1981 is one factor that cemented its identity as a western democracy, something that was deepened 20 years later with the adoption of the euro. For some months, the administration of President Barack Obama has been quietly urging Germany and other EU members to try to find a way to resolve the stand-off with Greece. While economic considerations have been at the forefront, diplomats say the EU’s position on Ukraine has also been part of the conversation. The visit by Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras to St Petersburg late last week served as a reminder of the current Greek government’s political ties to President Vladimir Putin’s Russia and showed its willingness to look towards Moscow at moments when the dispute with international creditors is at its most intense. The Russia trip also prompted new speculation that Moscow might be willing to lend substantial financial assistance to Athens, although this prospect is played down by analysts in Washington given the scale of the economic problems Greece would likely face if it were to default. “It is not as if Russia has a lot of money to throw around,” says Thomas Wright at the Brookings Institution in Washington. “Russia is not a huge potential export market, it is not a new economic option that did not exist for the Greeks before the crisis.” Instead, the worry is that the prolonged economic instability that could result from a default would deepen the political hostility towards the rest of Europe among the Greek electorate, opening an opportunity for Russia to boost its sway in the country. Throughout the Ukraine crisis, Moscow has been working to weaken support in the EU for sanctions, which require unanimous backing from the bloc’s 28 members. It has pushed to encourage pro-Russian political sentiment in Hungary and southeastern Europe, partly through its energy diplomacy. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, last year warned about Russia’s designs in the region. Her worry about the geopolitical ramifications of a Grexit is one consideration that separates her from Wolfgang Schäuble, her hardline finance minister. Obama administration officials insist the EU remains committed to the sanctions on Russia over Ukraine. “We still believe that Europe remains united against Russia and what they’re doing,” says John Kirby, state department spokesman, when asked about the potential impact of a Greek default. “I think coming out of the G7 you saw a lot of unity in Europe for continued sanctions against Russia and th possibility for increased sanctions to further isolate Russia.” Julianne Smith, a former Obama administration official now at the Center for a New American Security, says the showdown over Greece plays into a broader Washington concern about the effectiveness of the EU at a time when the UK is also planning a referendum about its own membership. “Washington is worried about both the Grexit and Brexit situations,” she says. “Both situations are a distraction at a time when we need Europe to show a lot of leadership.” Instead, the result of the succession of crises is “likely to provoke a period of navel-gazing” among Europe’s leaders.
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#1. To: TooConservative (#0)
Greece got into this mess because the socialist voters kept voting for socialist politicians that promised to give them more from the public treasury while promising to lower their taxes and pay for it by taxing "the rich" to pay for it all. That their economic system would collapse from this practice is about as surprising as the sun coming up in the east. The Dim Party has been practicing these same politics since King Roosevelt took office in the 30's,and the US culture has finally changed enough thanks to the mass importation of socialist peasants from 3rd world shitholes and giving them the vote that it will soon happen here,too. And make no mistake about it,this was the goal of the DNC when Fat Boy Kennedy first passed a Senate bill to open our borders to invasion by uneducated people who didn't speak English,had no desire to ever learn to speak English,had no education,and had no job skills. Prior to the 1970's MOST Americans prided themselves on providing for themselves. Work hard and provide for yourself and your family was THE key American virtue. Now we are outnumbered by the parasites that think the world owes them a living and who refuse to work and demands the people who do have jobs pay taxes to support them. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
They were the biggest drama queens in NATO, and they and the Turks were always a royal pain. NATO is a worthless institution that only a RINO could love. RINO's prefer that America have weak allies and strong enemies. Fearing the loss of Greece is like "fearing" the loss of Yukon from an internet forum.
But we do?
My understanding is that some sly Wall Street fat cats went over and taught them how to cheat the EU budget constraints to the max, essentially defrauding the EU and the euro. Even Germany and France did some of this; Greece did a lot of it. Spain and Italy were two other big abusers, not quite in the same league with Greece. While doing this, Greece continued its (very) early retirement system and took on a lot of obligations and didn't collect taxes very assiduously. Greece's debt is 180% of their GNP. They are pretty much past a point of no return. We aren't quite there yet but it is in sight. Not that anyone else is doing much better than we are except the Chinese and they avoid it by a lot of phony monetary policy (just like us). No one is in real great shape.
Beware Greeks bearing gifts. Or standing behind you. : )
I don't doubt it for a minutes. Nor do I doubt they skimmed more than their fair share from the thefts. Greece's debt is 180% of their GNP. They are pretty much past a point of no return. Yup. I say "Let Pooty-Poot have them! That will teach is ass a lesson. Maybe it will even teach the Greeks a lesson?" Unfortunately I think it is about 50 years too late for them to learn anything useful. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I think the original saying was "Beware of Greeks bearing Vaseline". Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, the Greeks have a bad reputation on this that is not actually deserved. The ancient Greeks were not nearly so gay as the Romans were (a real pack of pervs including baby and slave abusers). The reputation of ancient Greeks is judged by the writings of a few famous Greek gays and there are many indications from history that ancient Greece was not like San Francisco, much as the modern Left wants to pretend that it was. The ancients in general were much more the pagan if-it-feels-good-do-it types. Or the any-port-in-a-storm types.
Most of the things you know, you learned from the Greeks. They had high civilization before your ancestors learned to use bricks or potters wheel. They survived Persians, Romans, Turks, Germans - they will survive you.
Pooty-Poot wants to take oil that flows through Ukraine and reroute it through Greece. Pooty-Poot will be doing fine, Ukraine less so, and Greece will get paid from the Russian oil profits. It won't be welfare charity.
You are probably right. I am no expert in that area of history,and truth to tell am not really interested enough to know of any except for Alexander the Great,and everybody has heard of him. I was just trying to make a joke. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Really? Which ancestors of mine were so backwards? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
For the time being. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
LOL, reminds of what the War Nerd once wrote about the Pashtun: ...The Pashtun are trouble, period: always have been and always will be. Boy-raping, women-hating, war-loving maniacs. In fact I always think that if my good friend Victor Davis Hanson really wanted to see what life was like in his precious little ancient Greece he should go live with the Pashtuns for a while, as long as he could last anyway. They’re really “classical values” types, selling girls like cattle and making lovey-dovey eyes at little boys when they’re not looting the nextdoor village. We may need to revisit the old cold war question; "If Russia enters Turkey from the rear, will Greece help?"
Never heard that one. The answer to the question is obviously yes. : )
It has to do with borrowing money in Euros. That is the reason they need to be so and so on their books. The illegal vassal state of NATO's called Kosovo uses the Euro as it's currency and it is not even in the EU but because of loans can borrow with Euros. What the Greeks were doing was borrowing at low interest rates then re- loaning the loans out at slightly higher interest rates to Balkan and Turkish banks and making a nice profit. Then the Wall Street melt down happened and those loans dried up. That's the difference in Greece's case. People don't really talk about that aspect of the crisis that much concentrating on Greek retirement ages or wages caused this but the Greek state borrowed that money to loan shark it out to other non EU states.
That moron George Bush is forgotten but we still have to use his Bush-ism nicknames?
The Pushtun are as violent as the ancient Greeks were but not as clever or smart nor as artistic. The Greeks married violence with art.
LOL! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Either way I have a hard time working up any sympathy for them. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Why not? After all,that shirtless pose riding the white horse was about as homo as a Richard Simmons video,and Boy Jorge as a homo was just recognizing one of his brethren when he named him. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
TC now fancies himself an historian? Fascinating. In classical antiquity, writers such as Herodotus,[1] Plato,[2] Xenophon,[3] Athenaeus[4] and many others explored aspects of same-sex love in ancient Greece. The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece was between adult men and pubescent or adolescent boys, known as pederasty Homosexuality in ancient Greece was a normal practice.
There was no accepted homosexuality between adult males in ancient Greece and Greeks and Romans would not recognize what we mean by homosexual in its modern meaning. Not to get graphic but I did go for a history degree - the type of homosexuality they did practice was more a non sexual pantomime (look up Intercrural sex) relationship between an older male tutor and a younger boy. The older male would train the younger male in combat, politics, etc and arrange for his marriage. The penetration part was taboo and was a serious thing to do to a free male and represented a loss of prestige to the penetrated male. Romans had the same sort of set up.
The penetration part was taboo and was a serious thing to do to a free male and represented a loss of prestige to the penetrated male. Romans had the same sort of set up. If they did have gay sex, it was dishonorable to both but especially the older male for being weak. The tutor role was such that the honor and reputation of the older male was in how well he trained a youth to fight and observe the Greek customs. Using the youth for sex was extremely dishonorable to the older warrior's reputation. You'll notice how Op40 can do little more than cite a handful of Greek raging queen writers whose scribblings are responsible for the reputation of ancient Greece as a big gay orgy that lasted centuries. There are plenty of counter-indicators to this biased view of the ancient Greeks. Take one example, the famous play Lysistrata. If Greek men all preferred gay sex, that play is stupid and a lie.
The tutor role was such that the honor and reputation of the older male was in how well he trained a youth to fight and observe the Greek customs. Using the youth for sex was extremely dishonorable to the older warrior's reputation. You'll notice how Op40 can do little more than cite a handful of Greek raging queen writers whose scribblings are responsible for the reputation of ancient Greece as a big gay orgy that lasted centuries. There are plenty of counter-indicators to this biased view of the ancient Greeks. Take one example, the famous play Lysistrata. If Greek men all preferred gay sex, that play is stupid and a lie. A lot of the pro gay stuff was written up that way by British fag scholars of the 19th century - they were in all male schools and in the navy and assumed the Greeks were just like them. The Greeks and Romans who today would be labeled Gay would be offended they were called that - they would not recognize nor approve of gay rights or marriage and would probably have to kill you for calling them that. It's just different from modern understanding as much as the concept of child brides or dowary is different from American sensibilities.
A fair number of them made it through those elite schools and then went to Italy where morality laws were rarely enforced and they could do as they pleased, in part because no one back in Britain would hear of their lifestyles. Britain still had very harsh penalties for male sodomy and prosecuted often, including Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing.
#2. To: TooConservative (#0)
Washington fears losing Greece to Moscow
#3. To: TooConservative (#0)
“It is not as if Russia has a lot of money to throw around,” says Thomas Wright at the Brookings Institution in Washington.
#4. To: sneakypete (#1)
Greece got into this mess because the socialist voters kept voting for socialist politicians that promised to give them more from the public treasury while promising to lower their taxes and pay for it by taxing "the rich" to pay for it all.
The Dim Party has been practicing these same politics since King Roosevelt took office in the 30's,and the US culture has finally changed enough thanks to the mass importation of socialist peasants from 3rd world shitholes and giving them the vote that it will soon happen here,too.
#5. To: nativist nationalist (#2)
Fearing the loss of Greece is like "fearing" the loss of Yukon from an internet forum.
#6. To: TooConservative (#4)
My understanding is that some sly Wall Street fat cats went over and taught them how to cheat the EU budget constraints to the max, essentially defrauding the EU and the euro.
#7. To: TooConservative (#5)
Beware Greeks bearing gifts.
#8. To: sneakypete (#7)
#9. To: sneakypete (#6)
Unfortunately I think it is about 50 years too late for them to learn anything useful.
#10. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#6)
I say "Let Pooty-Poot have them! That will teach is ass a lesson."
#11. To: TooConservative (#8)
The reputation of ancient Greeks is judged by the writings of a few famous Greek gays and there are many indications from history that ancient Greece was not like San Francisco, much as the modern Left wants to pretend that it was.
#12. To: A Pole (#9)
Most of the things you know, you learned from the Greeks. They had high civilization before your ancestors learned to use bricks or potters wheel.
#13. To: nolu chan (#10)
Pooty-Poot wants to take oil that flows through Ukraine and reroute it through Greece. Pooty-Poot will be doing fine, Ukraine less so, and Greece will get paid from the Russian oil profits. It won't be welfare charity.
#14. To: TooConservative (#5)
Beware Greeks bearing gifts. Or standing behind you. : )
#15. To: nativist nationalist, Pericles (#14)
"If Russia enters Turkey from the rear, will Greece help?"
#16. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#8)
#17. To: nolu chan, sneakypete, TooConservative (#10)
Pooty-Poot
#18. To: nativist nationalist (#14)
#19. To: nativist nationalist (#14)
We may need to revisit the old cold war question; "If Russia enters Turkey from the rear, will Greece help?"
#20. To: Pericles (#16)
Then the Wall Street melt down happened and those loans dried up. That's the difference in Greece's case. People don't really talk about that aspect of the crisis that much concentrating on Greek retirement ages or wages caused this but the Greek state borrowed that money to loan shark it out to other non EU states.
#21. To: Pericles (#17)
That moron George Bush is forgotten but we still have to use his Bush-ism nicknames?
#22. To: TooConservative, Herodotus, Plato, Xenophon, Athenaeus (#8)
The ancient Greeks were not nearly so gay as the Romans were
Homosexuality in ancient Greece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
http://www.livius.org/ho-hz/homosexuality/homosexuality.html
#23. To: TooConservative, Operation 40 (#22)
(Edited)
#24. To: Pericles (#23)
the type of homosexuality they did practice was more a non sexual pantomime (look up Intercrural sex) relationship between an older male tutor and a younger boy. The older male would train the younger male in combat, politics, etc and arrange for his marriage.
#25. To: TooConservative (#24)
If they did have gay sex, it was dishonorable to both but especially the older male for being weak.
#26. To: Pericles (#25)
A lot of the pro gay stuff was written up that way by British fag scholars of the 19th century - they were in all male schools and in the navy and assumed the Greeks were just like them.
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