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Title: The Great Debate Why libertarianism is closer to Stalinism than you think
Source:
Reuters
URL Source: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba ... rdid-purity-of-libertarianism/
Published: Jun 16, 2015
Author: Alan Wolfe
Post Date: 2015-06-16 18:15:17 by Willie Green
Keywords: None
Views: 2927
Comments: 25
Whatever else happens, 2016 offers one of the most interesting presidential elections in decades. It already includes a libertarian from Kentucky, Senator Rand Paul, and a socialist from Vermont, Senator Bernie Sanders. Americans, polling has shown, dislike socialism. Let Paul have any success, and they may like libertarianism even less. For many American voters, libertarianism now has a certain freshness because it seems to cross the otherwise impregnable line between right and left. Sharply reducing the role of government in American life, libertarianism’s primary objective, appeals to conservatives because it offers an end to Obamacare, Social Security and other programs that transfer public money to the less well-off. Yet it also attracts liberal voters who ardently oppose invasions of privacy and bloated defense spending. Paul’s appeal doesn’t stop there, however. He understands that the GOP base is getting older and whiter — which bodes badly for the party’s future. He is reaching out to minorities. By attacking his party’s attempts to restrict the vote, Paul could attract many African-American and Latino voters. He has also appealed to younger voters by calling for less restrictive drug laws, for example, and speaking at college campuses, where older Republicans have been loathe to appear. Paul is, in many ways, the Republican Barack Obama. Ayn Rand in 1957. WIKIPEDIA/Commons But do not be fooled. Libertarianism has a complicated history, and it is by and large a sordid one. Its leading 20th-century theorist was the novelist Ayn Rand, who, for all her talk of freedom, was an authoritarian at heart. She was intolerant of dissent and conspiratorial to a fault. Libertarians elected to public office on the basis of her ideas, including former Republican Representative Ron Paul, Rand Paul’s father, have adhered to such radical positions as abolishing the Federal Reserve. Rand Paul has somehow moderated the crankier side of the movement that has shaped his career. Though isolationism is built into libertarianism, Paul has strongly defended Israel’s actions in the Middle East, which appeals to Republican neo-conservatives. At the other end of the political spectrum, he drew in both libertarians and the left with his 10-hour filibuster protesting the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance of Americans. Politicians often change positions based on what voters and donors demand. But Paul’s efforts to appeal to different audiences represent something more than political pandering. Libertarianism is not like other sets of ideas, and Paul’s maneuvering is not quite business as usual. For libertarianism is among the most rigid of modern ideologies. The theorists who formulated its core principles were seekers after political purity. They created an ideal world designed to work perfectly — but only if human beings acted consistently. Society, to them, was like a Swiss watch: Let every part play its designed role, and the whole thing would run on its own accord. Libertarianism in that sense is not merely an economic doctrine or a political worldview. It proposed, as Ayn Rand realized, a secular substitute for religion, complete with its own conception of the city of God, a utopia of pure laissez-faire and the city of man, a place where envy and short-sightedness hinder creative geniuses from carrying out their visions. If there was anything its founders hated more than governmental authority, it was religious authority. Such a religious-like ideal requires careful scrutiny to ensure that no one breaks the rules or, in religious terms, commits a sin. Individuals are free to act in their self-interest — indeed, are required to — but if they grow lazy or are swayed by emotions or altruism, society’s best achievements will come crashing down around them. GOP presidential candidate Representative Ron Paul speaks to supporters as his son Senator Rand Paul (L) applauds at his Iowa Caucus night rally in Ankeny, Iowa, January 3, 2012. REUTERS/Jim Young Libertarianism, in short, resonates with an avid quest for political purity. The ideas of both conservatives and liberals are flexible enough to give way, at least on occasion. Obama, for example, regularly advocates compromise in principle, and conservatives, who do not, nonetheless fight frequently with each other. Those associated with libertarianism have no such room to maneuver; those who disagree are treated like apostates. Yet if libertarianism is principled, it is also an impracticable set of ideas. Republicans who want to increase the defense budget can, and do, get results. Democrats who sought national health insurance finally realized their objective after decades of trying. But how, exactly, does one get government “interference” out of business when business wants it there most of the time? Is a libertarian foreign policy even imaginable, let alone workable? Truly principled libertarians believe that government should refrain from telling women what to do with their bodies, but should there be no regulation of medical procedures? Libertarianism seems to be a philosophy designed not for governance but for opposition. It is loud and powerful when saying “no,” but often impotent and speechless when required to say “yes.” Match the idealism of libertarianism with its impracticality, and it is no wonder that Paul’s campaign may wander from one extreme to another. Paul, for one thing, has a major problem with his friends. Pure libertarians, like those devoted to his father, watch his every move, suspicious that he will sacrifice their zeal in favor of wider appeal. To keep them pleased, Paul must from time to time speak directly to their fears. His effort to hold up a Senate vote on extending the NSA’s authority to collect Americans’ telephone records served that need well. Taking a page from Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Paul knows the symbolic value of seeming to stand alone to stand for his people. The effect, by early accounts, was electric; Paul was fulfilling his destiny as the successor to his dad. The trouble is that not all votes are symbolic and, for that reason, relatively easy to cast. Let there be a vote on something substantive, especially where budget deficits are involved, and Paul is likely to disappoint true believers. Senator Rand Paul (C) is flanked by reporters as he arrives for a Republican Senate caucus meeting at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, October 16, 2013. REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst Paul has an even greater problem with his enemies. It is not that difficult to be a Republican member of Congress from a conservative district in Texas and be a faithful libertarian. Ron Paul proved that. It is harder to be a libertarian as a senator representing an entire state — even a conservative one like Kentucky. Yet Rand Paul has managed to pull that off. But to have a chance for the presidency and remain faithful to libertarian principles is a far more difficult — if not impossible — task. It is here where the impracticality of libertarian ideas will torment the Paul campaign. For Paul to stand with Israel is to issue a direct slap to the isolationism of his father’s passionate supporters. Nor is pandering to the neo-con hawks likely to satisfy. Strong support for Israel exists in both parties, and no matter how hard Paul expresses his solidarity with that country, he can never hope to compete with a national-security consensus that he has so often challenged. Paul’s problems at the national level are exacerbated because however inspiring libertarian principles may be to the truly committed, they are elitist at their core. The more 2012 GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney and his vice presidential choice, Representative Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), sounded like Ayn Rand’s hero John Galt in Atlas Shrugged, the more unpopular they became. Contempt can get you attention, but it is unlikely to attract votes. Presented with a libertarian nominated by a major party, voters are likely to find him scary if true to his convictions and weak if he is not. So crowded is the race for the Republican nomination that Paul might possibly get it. The fact that all the other primary candidates will most likely attack him throughout the debates, could possibly attract sympathy voters. But even if he were to somehow pull that off, he would, as a presidential nominee, have to be a traitor either to his father or to his party, the one caring only to make a point, the other desiring nothing less than winning. Other ideologies bend but rarely break. A libertarian nominated by a major party is more likely to break than bend. The good news is that if Paul were to win the Republican nomination, libertarianism’s unfitness for the modern world would be revealed for all to see. The bad news is that the poison of its extremism would enter into the body politic, perhaps never to be fully ejected. 
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#1. To: Willie Green (#0)
Stalin was a Communist who killed millions of his own people. Aren't you a Communist?
Well he is all in on high speed rail... http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/7153/Rail-Transportation-Secretary-Wants-Us-to-Be-Like-Communist-China.aspx “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
What the article is saying is that libertarian is the BS Republicans base their ideology on but its all for show and to distract the rubes. Just like the commies in power pretended to be ardent commies for the masses but no in power really believed that shit worked. In fact their biggest fears were that the true believers would one day come to power and try to actually implement their theories in practice like happened when Mao initiated the Cultural Revolution. Rand Paul scares the shit out of the GOP bosses.
Pure Communism has as much chance of working as the various communes that had high-flying ideals and failed miserably. There will always be those who are beyond greedy and power-mad, the elite.
This article, like so many others, really misses the mark. Frankly, the writers expose themselves as grossly ignorant. No serious libertarians follow Ayn Rand's politics or philosophy, Objectivism. It's a closed cult and long ago reached its maximum influence. Modern libertarians are either a part of the Kochtopus (the Koch brothers fake libertarian groups and writers) or part of the Rothbardian libertarians with their flagship at the Mises Institute and Lew Rockwell's circle of writers. Though Lew was Ron Paul's chief of staff (and Rand as an intern rode to work with Ron and Lew every day as a teen), there is a real split among libertarians over Rand. Essentially, they think that he's a sellout. Here's a sample of their reasoning just today: Jim Ostrowski explains why libertarians should not support Rand Paul. One reason “is that Rand will become an albatross around the neck of the Liberty Movement.” I completely agree. Freedom cannot be gained or held by imposing it officially through a coercive system of government on everyone in a given territorial area whether they agree to it or not. Freedom can’t be won by abolishing government programs, taxes and associated laws. That’s coercive libertarianism. Freedom can only be achieved by making such programs, taxes and associated laws optional. That’s optional libertarianism. Let people live under specific government activities who want to and let others opt out of them who do not want to. If Rand Paul actually succeeded in getting Congress to abolish some program, say farm subsidies, the majority vote would suppress the minority who believe in that program. Consequently, since nothing systematic had changed, the divisive bickering and fighting over what government should or should not do would continue. The result would be a new political battleground, new coalitions, new programs and new forms of coercion. As long as the current system under this Constitution continues, there can be no other result but continual political fighting and continual coercion. Majority voting builds these right into the system. What needs to be done within this existing coercive system that is short of revolution is to subdivide government’s activities into separate programs, each with its own laws and especially its own financing, so that people can see exactly what’s being imposed on them. Each such program should then be made OPTIONAL. It SHOULD NOT be voted up or down by a single overall vote or referendum. That’s what majority rule does and it’s coercive. Instead, each person should be able either to affirm or reject participation in each given program INDIVIDUALLY and VOLUNTARILY. Affirmation then provides an agreement to pay one’s share of the financing costs of that program. Taxes become specific to each program and they become voluntary. Opting out relieves one of both the program and the payments that support it. Individual optionality enlarges freedom without coercion. It allows the continuation of certain government programs among those who want them to continue, and it allows discontinuation among those who do not want them. If optionality is not increased in this way, there are other ways within the existing system to enhance it and bring about a peaceful transformation that amounts to a virtual revolution, even under the existing Constitution. Willie, if you're going to try to post hit pieces on libertarians (and Libertarians), try to learn something about who and what they are first.
Very true. Ayn Rand was absolutist and shrill and so are her followers. Rand's followers have one important thing in common with the neo-cons -- they both want to pummel Muslims. This shouldn't be a surprise given that both Rand and most of the leading members of the neo-con movement are Jewish. I would put this differently. Modern libertarians are either Rothbardian anarchists who believe in no government at all or they support the much larger group of think tanks and organizations that are working within the system we have to make the the GOP more libertarian.
What an insult. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
I can't even imagine how you came up with such a bizarre idea. You're completely wrong. You forgot the monarchist libertarians. And some others. There is a lot of variety among libertarians. And various factions of libertarians are quite vehement about their own particular brand of libertarian philosophy. The most common view you can ascribe to libertarians as compared to Dems or GOP is that they oppose larger government in every instance and favor smaller government in every instance. They also tend to agree that entire segments of government power be greatly diminished or abolished and that the non-aggression principle should generally be the rule.
Nope, I am correct. From Leonard Peikoff (leader of the Ayn Rand Institute): END STATES WHO SPONSOR TERRORISM The article argues that America has been "appeasing" the Mideast for 50 years. It's time to pummel them, including invading Iran with ground troops and "de- Nazifying" the country. This is indistinguishable from the positions of the most extreme neo-con war mongers. I can post more war mongering articles by Objectivists, if you'd like...
The Ayn Rand Institute is generally not known widely in libertarian circles. It's the old Objectivist crowd, maybe 5% of all libertarians. They have a fairly high crossover rate with membership in the Libertarian party but they don't even comprise a large slice of the Libertarian Party any more. Nor are their writings influential and they do not influence the LP's direction or policy stands.
A libertarian came to our high school back in the 80's. He told us all the things libertarians were for. I decided then and there that he was kooky. Still have pretty much the same opinion. Do what thou wilt pretty much sums it up just like somthing that another group says.
It's a variation of the Golden Rule. Object all you want. Like most people (including some who call themselves libertarian), you don't have a real big clue about what libertarian thought consists of.
Do what thou wilt is from the satanic "bible". It has nothing in common with the golden rule.
Which was the point of my original point -- the Objectivists want to pummel Muslims just like the neo-cons.
Fine. As long as you understand that the Objectivists are almost certainly less than 10% of all libertarians. I think you may be conflating the Objectivists (and others) with the Kochtopus, the think tank and writings of "Beltway libertarians" who basically masquerade as libertarians but are just another flavor of neocon Republicans and operate in tandem with Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society and most (not all) of the Cato Institute staff. Reason magazine still has some indepentent libertarian writers as well. The Kochtopus is allied against the anarcho-capitalist Ludwig von Mises Institute. Murray Rothbard warned of the dangers of putting too much power in the hands of one donor, and accused the Kochtopus of causing a "Kochcycle" by pouring millions into the libertarian movement from 1977-1980, and then imploding the movement by a sudden contraction of funding. Specifically, the Kochtopus took control of the Libertarian Party at the 1979 Libertarian National Convention in Los Angeles, at which David H. Koch, Charles' brother, openly bought the vice presidential nomination for $500,000; campaign finance laws allowed him to spend unlimited amounts for his own candidacy. Murray Rothbard broke with the Kochtopus soon after the '79 LP Convention and most of his close allies were purged, including Williamson Evers of Inquiry. The Center for Libertarian Studies was cut off from Koch funding. Rothbard's The Libertarian Forum began attacking Koch, and Rothbard and young Justin Raimondo set up a new Libertarian Radical Caucus.
Dude, I almost voted for Ed Clark in 1980. I decided to vote for Reagan instead. But I did vote for Ron Paul in 88. I actually met him three times during the 88 campaign and I introduced him at a fundraiser in Auburn Hills, MI after he spoke at the Detroit Economic Club. Please don't lecture me about libertarians.
This extremely annoying poster thinks it is his job to lecture everyone about everything. After all, he is an expert on everything, as he will happily explain, in post after post after post after post. It's hilarious- especially when it's obvious he read about something for 4 minutes and now thinks he knows all about whatever it is he read about for 4 minutes.
Hey, TC….I am here to tell you that the time and effort you spend in researching and posting information is greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.
It sounds like you're an old Objectivist type, oblivious to the rise of Rothbardians following Ron Paul's campaigns in 2008 and 2012. And you seem to know little (if anything) about the operations of the Kochtopus over the years. I think Ron Paul, who also voted for Ron Paul in '88, would be the first to tell you that that era is long gone.
I'm not bothered. Op40 resents that I ridicule his long stream of really boring corporate press releases on alt energy. So he stalks me, taking potshots.
In 88, I wrote in, Thomas Jefferson. His platform is closer to the founding fathers than Ron Paul... and they both had the same chance of winning. So I'm even a better libertarian than you. TC is one of the many posters here that isn't an AGENDA poster... he posts about a wide array of things and is not only fair and balanced, but very informative. Why is the Ron Paul cult the least tolerable group next to the democrats? Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
Since you are so quick to give others advice, I'd like to give you some advice (for the first and last time): A.) Read posts thoroughly. Don't stop on the third or forth word and dream up what you think they might be saying. Read the actual words, not the words you think they are writing. B.) Use www.google.com or www.bing.com to check your opponent's facts before making a fool of yourself denying them. You would be a much better poster if you followed these two pieces of advice. But you won't, so I won't repeat them again.
Maybe you should check your own facts. No one, but no one, takes the Ayn Rand Institute seriously. The vast majority of modern libertarians ridicule it (and Ayn Rand herself) mercilessly. You seem to have been a Seventies/Eighties Libertarian that lost touch with them long ago. Otherwise, you'd know some of these basic facts about how much libertarianism has changed over the decades.
grrr.... Go back and read my first post. I'm not talking about "libertarians". I'm talking about people who worship Ayn Rand (Objectivists). You are just not man enough to admit that you were wrong for jumping down my throat for posting that her mindless followers want to pummel Muslims.
You're just not man enough to admit that you know little to nothing about libertarians (or Libertarians) past or present.
#2. To: Don, Willie Green (#1)
Stalin was a Communist who killed millions of his own people. Aren't you a Communist?
#3. To: Don, Willie Green, CZ82, A Pole (#1)
(Edited)
#4. To: Pericles (#3)
#5. To: Willie Green (#0)
This voluntariness (yes, they think that's a word) and the non-aggression principle are the ruling dogma of modern Rothbardian libertarianism. It's hardly worth the time to point out the serious errors these thinkers make in some of their most fundamental assumptions. And deep down, even they seem to know it. But they are perfectly willing to let the perfect (the non-aggressive anarcho-syndicalist voluntary collective) be the enemy of the good (Rand Paul, Ron Paul, whoever might actually manage to get elected and do something concrete to move the country in a libertarian direction). Rand Paul As Albatross: Coercive vs. Optional Libertarianism
Michael S. Rozeff
#6. To: TooConservative (#5)
(Edited)
No serious libertarians follow Ayn Rand's politics or philosophy, Objectivism. It's a closed cult and long ago reached its maximum influence.
Modern libertarians are either a part of the Kochtopus (the Koch brothers fake libertarian groups and writers) or part of the Rothbardian libertarians with their flagship at the Mises Institute and Lew Rockwell's circle of writers.
#7. To: Willie Green (#0)
Paul is, in many ways, the Republican Barack Obama.
#8. To: cranko (#6)
(Edited)
Rand's followers have one important thing in common with the neo-cons -- they both want to pummel Muslims.
I would put this differently. Modern libertarians are either Rothbardian anarchists who believe in no government at all or they support the much larger group of think tanks and organizations that are working within the system we have to make the the GOP more libertarian.
#9. To: TooConservative (#8)
I can't even imagine how you came up with such a bizarre idea. You're completely wrong.
#10. To: cranko (#9)
From Leonard Peikoff (leader of the Ayn Rand Institute):
#11. To: TooConservative (#5)
#12. To: A K A Stone (#11)
Do what thou wilt pretty much sums it up just like somthing that another group says.
#13. To: TooConservative (#12)
It's a variation of the Golden Rule. Object all you want.
#14. To: TooConservative (#10)
The Ayn Rand Institute... It's the old Objectivist crowd...
#15. To: cranko (#14)
Which was the point of my original point -- the Objectivists want to pummel Muslims just like the neo-cons.
The Kochtopus has been static or declining for the last fifteen years. All the growth has come from the Rothbardian side, led by Rothbard's best friend, Ron Paul when he was in Congress.
The Kochtopus is a group of minarchist organizations founded by Charles G. Koch. They include the Cato Institute (which plays a central role in the Kochtopus), Reason Foundation, Property and Environment Research Center, Students for a Libertarian Society, The Libertarian Review, Institute for Humane Studies, Council for a Competitive Economy, Heritage Foundation, Federalist Society, and the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. The power structure of the Kocktopus changed over the years, from being simply Charles Koch and his aide George Pearson, to a setup in which Libertarian Party national chairman Ed Crane was equal in power to Pearson. In addition to rumblings about the "Crane Machine" and the "Kochtopus," there was a deep suspicion that Crane was selling out the party's principles. Circa 1984, Richie Fink set up a lobbying outfit called Citizens for a Sound Economy as a means of furthering Koch's goal of bringing in outside funding through a membership organization; this heralded the beginning of the Finktopus. The term "Kochtopus" was coined in February 1978 by Samuel Edward Konkin, III, who accused Koch of attempting "to buy the major Libertarian institutions - not just the Party - and run the movement as other plutocrats run all the other political parties in capitalist states." Controversy
#16. To: TooConservative (#15)
Fine. As long as you understand that the Objectivists are almost certainly less than 10% of all libertarians.
#17. To: cranko, TooConservative (#16)
Please don't lecture me about libertarians.
#18. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#17)
Hey, TC....yo are not an annoying poster
#19. To: cranko (#16)
But I did vote for Ron Paul in 88. ... Please don't lecture me about libertarians.
#20. To: Gatlin (#18)
Hey, TC….I am here to tell you that the time and effort you spend in researching and posting information is greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.
#21. To: cranko (#16)
Please don't lecture me about libertarians. I did vote for Ron Paul in 88.
#22. To: TooConservative (#19)
It sounds like you're an old Objectivist type
#23. To: cranko (#22)
B.) Use www.google.com or www.bing.com to check your opponent's facts before making a fool of yourself denying them.
#24. To: TooConservative (#23)
(Edited)
Ayn Rand herself
#25. To: cranko (#24)
You are just not man enough to admit that you were wrong for jumping down my throat for posting that her mindless followers want to pummel Muslims.
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