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United States News
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Title: Police Seize 6 Children Simply Because Family Was Camping
Source: Off The Grid News
URL Source: http://www.offthegridnews.com/curre ... ly-because-family-was-camping/
Published: Jun 12, 2015
Author: Off The Grid News Staff
Post Date: 2015-06-15 11:14:44 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 6594
Comments: 45

Stock photo

Stock photo

A Michigan family which had dreams of camping during the summer in the great outdoors was horrified when state officials seized their six children simply because they were temporarily living in tents, Off The Grid News has learned.

The nightmare experience for Christopher and Antonia Hernandez began May 19 when Otsego County sheriff deputies and a CPS official took their children, and ended June 10 when their children were returned after the parents won a court ruling based on the fact the mother and children are eligible for enrollment in the Tlingit Native American tribe. The federal Indian Child Welfare Act makes it more difficult for state officials to separate Native American families. Michigan has a similar state law.

If the family had not had the Tlingit link, the case still would be ongoing, with the children still in foster care.

But the removal never should have taken place, Christopher and Antonia told Off The Grid News, which has read the court documents – one of which criticizes the family for not having electricity or a water source. The family was near a state park and had purchased a pass to shower and bathe there. The parents also had a generator.

They had been living in the tents for nine days when police arrived.

“The government has tried to standardize what a home is and what a home must have, without consideration for if the children’s needs are being met or not,” Christopher and Antonia said in a joint statement. “This was not a case of neglect, but a case of the government telling us how we have to raise our children — that we must have running water, we must have electricity and we can’t stay in a tent for the summer. To the government it makes no difference if the children are happy and healthy. We need to conform to their idea of normal or they can take your children away.

They added, “Taking children from families needs to be limited to clear cases of neglect and abuse. It should be every parent’s right to raise their children as they see fit, unless the government can prove that what the parent is doing is actually harming the child.”

The children, ages seven months, 2, 4, 6, 15 and 17, had been living in the three tents – two of which were large nine-person tents – when the controversy began.

“Our family decided to go camping for the summer to a 10-acre property we are buying,” Antonia said, noting they do own a house. “We had intended to stay the summer while we finalized plans on what we were going to do with our lives. We cannot say we would have stayed the whole summer due to the fact Christopher is donating a kidney to his mother and we may have been called home to do the surgery at any point. If this were to happen we planned to return home for the duration of the surgery and the recovery period however long that was.”

The parents simply “wanted our children to experience the outdoors” – and perhaps see if they wanted to live off-grid permanently.

The Hernandez family

The Hernandez family

“We purchased several chickens, a couple of turkey and a couple of ducks so we could try and provide a portion of our food needs,” Antonia said. “… We set up one tent as storage for our tools, as I do a lot of woodworking. Another tent was set up as a closet to house our clothes and diapers, etc. As you can imagine, with six children we have a lot of clothes and other miscellaneous items. Our third tent was set up as a kitchen.”

The family also had:

  • A natural gas stove the parents converted to propane for cooking food and heating water.
  • Six five-gallon containers of water they refilled at the local Walmart. They also were collecting rainwater.
  • Several solar lights.
  • A generator.

On May 19, the parents left the property to do laundry at a laundromat, as well as to buy food and some fencing for the animals. The younger children were left in the care of their 15-year-old son, who is nearly 16.

“When we arrived back, the Otsego County Sheriff’s Department was at the property claiming to have received a report of squatters on the land,” Antonia said. “We provided documentation of our right to be on the land, which was verified the next day by the land owner.”

A CPS representative also was on the property, and had concerns about the living conditions. CPS made four allegations, according to the official court document:

  • The family was not in a “stable living environment.”
  • The family had no electricity or water source, and was using kerosene as a means of heat.
  • The children were playing in the woods, cared for by a 15 year old.
  • The youngest child had a diaper rash.
  • The 17-year-old girl, who has Cerebral Palsy, was cold.

Antonia told Off The Grid News she knew of the diaper rash and it had been healing. The 17-year-old girl had a temperature of 96, but Antonia said this was after sheriff deputies and CPS “had the tent flap completely open for at least an hour and a half.” When she was admitted to the hospital it was 97.7.

“I witnessed her without covers for at least part of that time,” Antonia said. “I was told by her case worker that the doctor who examined her said she was very well taken care of.”

As for the children playing outside in the cold, “none of the children were displaying any signs of being cold — shivering or teeth chattering. As a matter of fact, they kept taking off their coats, which to me indicates that they were not cold.”

None of the allegations, he said, warranted removal of the children.

“We were given no other option to either return to the house we own or to obtain a hotel room until we could go to court,” she said. “By law, they are required to a reasonable effort to prevent or eliminate the need for removal as required by law.”

The case is now closed, and with their children back in their care, the parents have decided not to return to the property.

“It is a sad that they were out of our care for 21 days because we were camping,” she said.

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#5. To: Deckard, Pericles, Gatlin (#0)

A decade and a half ago I did a bit of camping.
Nothing terrible about it.
Just me and my girlfriend - we had no children with us.
So I guess we didn't qualify as potential 'parental terrorists'...

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-06-15   13:32:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Deckard (#3)

...the author in this yellow journalism article...

To quote the great Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn - "Blow it out your ass, lard mouth".

To quote the great Charlie Sheen (who played Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn in the movie) when he said in real life - "You can't process me with a normal brain."

Your brain never advanced to the "normal" level so that you could even try.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-15   13:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Deckard (#0)

" Police Seize 6 Children Simply Because Family Was Camping "

This is absurd. I guess the local LE did not have any lemonade stands to raid.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-06-15   14:12:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Deckard (#0)

“When we arrived back, the Otsego County Sheriff’s Department was at the property claiming to have received a report of squatters on the land,” Antonia said.

I wonder which concerned citizen narc'd on them.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-06-15   14:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Deckard (#0)

Be interesting to see if they sue or act.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-06-15   14:55:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Deckard (#0)

We had something similar happen in this neck of the woods about a month ago - large family living off the grid; 10 kids confiscated. I'll try to find the story.

Breckinridge couple's 10 kids to remain in foster care

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-06-15   15:03:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: misterwhite (#4)

Yeah! So there!

You do understand what camping is - right?

“Our family decided to go camping for the summer to a 10-acre property we are buying,” Antonia said, noting they do own a house. “We had intended to stay the summer while we finalized plans on what we were going to do with our lives."

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-06-15   15:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Stoner (#7)

This is absurd.
Yes, the article is absurd.
They were not CAMPING.

They were buying the land.
They were LIVING in tents.

There had no TOILET facility.
There was a shower at a
campground miles away.

If they only wanted to camp,
they could have done so at the
campground and nothing would
have been said or happened.

I guess the local LE did not have any lemonade stands to raid.
I guess the local health department did not want the kids
pissing and shitting all over the ground and living with it.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-15   15:22:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Deckard, misterwhite (#11) (Edited)

You do understand what camping is - right?
You do understand that living off the grid for the entire summer with no sanitary facilities can be unhealthy – right?
“Our family decided to go camping for the summer to a 10-acre property we are buying,” Antonia said, noting they do own a house. “We had intended to stay the summer while we finalized plans on what we were going to do with our lives."
The article failed in noting they had no sanitary facilities where they were “home steading” off the grid for the summer. Odd, that the article mentioned they had a generator….but no toilet.
Dad, I have to shit. …. Go behind that tree over there, your brother uses the one next to it. ... And your sister uses the one behind it. ... I forget which one your mother uses.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-15   15:34:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Fred Mertz, Deckard (#10) (Edited)

Breckinridge couple's 10 kids to remain in foster care

A homeschooling couple was arrested and had all 10 of their children taken by the state Thursday after a local sheriff acted on a tip about alleged poor living conditions at their 26-acre homestead where they live “off the grid.”

The Naugler family lives a “back to basics” lifestyle that few would choose, but it makes them happy, says a family friend. The couple has been married almost 20 years and are expecting their 11th child in four months. They have six dogs, two cats and a few farm animals on their “Blessed Little Homestead” in rural southwest Kentucky, according to their Facebook site.

But the Breckinridge County Sheriff’s Office has charged homeschool dad Joe Naugler with the misdemeanor crime of “menacing” and child welfare agents are investigating allegations of unfit living conditions for the couple’s children.

Read the remainder of the story here.

SEE PICTURES HERE.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-15   15:48:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Deckard, Pericles, Gatlin (#5)

... Nothing terrible about it...

Actually it was quite astounding...

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-06-15   15:51:30 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Chuck_Wagon, Deckard, Pericles (#15)

Beautiful scene....how would you compare this scene to those pictured in link in Post #14?

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-15   16:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Deckard (#0)

I am not a violent person, but people need to shoot these people deader than a hammer when this happens. It is not LIKE they were kidnapped, they WERE. It doesn't matter if it is an official of a government agency or a mass murderer. If this shi'ite would have happened to my mother and father back in the mid 1900's, someone would have paid dearly, fists, knives or bullets...these tyrants would be afraid to "follow their orders".

jeremiad  posted on  2015-06-15   20:39:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Deckard (#0)

Filling up your water cans at the local Wall Mart is living "off the grid"?

Ok.

VxH  posted on  2015-06-16   10:54:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Gatlin (#12) (Edited)

I guess the local health department did not want the kids pissing and shitting all over the ground and living with it.

What was the role of the local health department when Laura Engels' family was living in their little house on the prairie?

VxH  posted on  2015-06-16   10:58:23 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: jeremiad (#17)

If this shi'ite would have happened to my mother and father back in the mid 1900's,

Look Closer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludl ow_Massacre

VxH  posted on  2015-06-16   11:01:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: VxH (#19)

I guess the local health department did not want the kids pissing and shitting all over the ground and living with it. What was the role of the local health department when Laura Engels' (SIC) family was living in their little house on the prairie?

Duh! Was there a local health department when Laura Ingalls’ family was living in their little house on the prairie?

Besides their little house on the prairie had a little outhouse on the prairie….look and see.

And the little house on the prairie had a well for a continuous supply of fresh water.

Furthermore, the ingalls were not living in tents.

Geeeze, man….Get REAL!

SIDE BAR NOTE: ‘Little House’ Actress Melissa Gilbert Says Move To Log House In Woods Unrelated To Her Massive Pile Of IRS Debt

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   11:15:52 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Gatlin (#21) (Edited)

Was there a local health department when Laura Ingalls’ family was living in their little house on the prairie?

Exactly.

What evidence do you have of the "kids pissing and shitting all over the ground"?

VxH  posted on  2015-06-16   11:18:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: VxH (#22)

Where do you think they were pissisng and shitting?

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   11:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Gatlin (#23)

Back in the day my dad bought 7 acres in Southern Colorado. It was a nice parcel atop a South facing bluff.

Part of the improvements he made included a road... blasted with dynamite up the hill - and a hole atop the hill, also blasted with one stick of dynamite, over which he constructed an outhouse.

Ever been in the field?

Ever used an E-Tool?

No?

VxH  posted on  2015-06-16   11:42:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Gatlin, Stoner, jeremiad (#12)

Yes, the article is absurd. They were not CAMPING.

They were buying the land. They were LIVING in tents.

Oh, the humanities - living in tents?

Good grief how could anyone subject their children to such abuse!!

“Our family decided to go camping for the summer to a 10-acre property we are buying,” Antonia said, noting they do own a house. “We had intended to stay the summer while we finalized plans on what we were going to do with our lives."

I guess the local health department did not want the kids pissing and shitting all over the ground and living with it.

Gee, with all your so-called military experience, you've never heard of a latrine?

oh my goodness Gatlin, you and the other nanny-state clowns sure do enjoy telling others how to live - and in this case you want to dictate how people camp as well.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-06-16   13:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Deckard (#25)

- and in this case you want to dictate how people camp as well.

No kidding.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-06-16   13:37:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Fred Mertz, Deckard (#26)

- and in this case you want to dictate how people camp as well.

No kidding.

Not I.

I dictate nothing. However they had to comply with the health department regulations and city/county codes

Their situation to handle, not mine.

NO KIDDING.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   14:16:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Deckard (#25) (Edited)

... a latrine?

Oh, where did it state there was one?

If they had one and used it, the yellow journalism article would surely have stated so....it would be just one more reason to try to get more people irritated.

Besides: The Health Department of Northwest Michigan (Ostego County) does not permit the use of a latrine. You can only install an approved septic system.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   14:20:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: VxH (#24)

Back in the day my ...

Well GOOD ON YOUR DAD ... but that was BACK IN THE DAY, and not today.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   14:22:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Gatlin (#16) (Edited)

Beautiful scene....how would you compare this scene to those
pictured in link in Post #14?

For almost a decade I lived in the rural southeast.
And quite frankly, in a lot of areas -
if you took a zoom lens to that 'beautiful scene',
you would see many of the photos pictured in Post #14.

"Look up and see the beauty of nature!
Ignore the squalor around you!"

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-06-16   15:30:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Deckard, Perciles, misterwhite, GrandIsland, Chuck_Wagon, Stoner, Fred Mertz, BobCeleste, jeremiad, VxH, (#30)

Living off the grid can be illegal in Michigan.

Experimenting with sustainability

Take Rolf and Mari von Walthausen for example. They were a typical Traverse City couple. They worked 40-hour-a-week jobs and lived in an average-sized home. But one day they did an experiment.

“We moved all of our belongings into one room of the house and said, let’s see how it is to live in a space that is 12 by 16 [feet],” Rolf von Walthausen said.

Then they tried another experiment.

“There was a time that one summer at our house, we actually set up the tent in the yard and we lived in this tent for four months,” Rolf von Walthausen said.

Living off the grid

Then came the big test. The von Walthausens sold their house, quit their day jobs and built a tiny cabin in the woods with no running water or electricity. They got new part-time jobs teaching yoga and tuning pianos, they were living in the woods, getting their water from a stream nearby, gathering wood to heat their wood- burning stove, and using their compostable toilet outside.

Rolf von Walthausen said living off the grid is hard work, but he and his wife love it.

“This way you get to be out in nature 365 days a year and really get into those natural rhythms that we in modern society have lost,” Rolf von Walthausen said.

And they started getting closer to their neighbors. They trade things like tools for eggs and syrup. Mari von Walthausen said they began spending time with people around them more than they ever could before.

“Most people in most neighborhoods have no idea who even lives next door because you get home after dark and you just collapse,” Mari von Walthausen said.

Living off the grid was illegal

Life was good. Until the local zoning and health officials found out. Turns out there are two major problems with the von Walthausen’s lifestyle.

Clay McNitt is with the Benzie-Leelanau District Health Department.

“A habitable dwelling should have running water to it and should have a means of sanitary disposal of the sewage. That's what our code requires,” McNitt said.

The second problem is that their 200-square-foot house is actually too small to be considered livable in their township.

Tim Johnson is the chairperson for the Centerville Township planning commission. He said the von Walthausen’s house is four times smaller than the township minimum.

“The ordinance was first written in 1976. It was first enacted, primarily, although no one will admit this, to keep single-wide mobile homes out of the township,” Johnson said.

Johnson and the von Walthausens fought the township board to get rid of the square-foot minimum. But the board voted against it.

How to legally live off the grid, at least half the year

The von Walthausens are not giving up. They can’t legally live in their cabin, but they can stay in a tent on each of their three parcels of land for two months at a time. So that’s what they are doing. They’re living in a tent for six months, then house-sitting for friends and neighbors the rest of the year.

“It’s crazy to try to navigate basically these power struggles in government,” Mari von Walthausen said.

Government officials say this wouldn’t be as much of a struggle if the von Walthausens would have talked with the proper local authorities before they started this journey.

The von Walthausens said they knew living completely off the grid probably wasn’t legal in the first place. But despite the bureaucratic and political hurdles, they are committed to living off their land as much as they can. Under the stars, and under the law. [source]

This attempt at living off the grid in the article above happened in the Benzie-Leelanau District Health Department District. The Health Department of Northwest Michigan, Osego County, where Christopher and Antonia Hernandez were attempting to live off the grid with their 6 children will no doubt have the same conditions and restrictions for living off the grid apply there as well.

So, let’s stop with this bullshit yellow journalism story.

The Hernandez family were not camping. They were buying the land to build a home and living off the grid during the process while they were starting to build their home. They got caught and some bleeding heart liberal writer for Off The Grid News tried to turn their failure into a hate government vendetta by crying that the “kids were denied a camping adventure by the big bad government.” The Hernandez family failed in the attempt to skirt the county codes, but Off The Grid News succeeded in getting some bleeding heart liberals here on LF to whine and sob after they were duped.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   16:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Gatlin (#31)

Gatlin, I feel people should be able to do whatever they like, that's legal, on their own property or property they have a right to occupy. Long term camping or living off the grid should be every citizens right, IMHO.

The state should only Interfer with parental responsibility when the parents put a minors life in danger or likely to be injurious to children.

If they had shelter, food, warmth and water... they should be left alone.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-06-16   16:37:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: GrandIsland (#32)

Gatlin, I feel people should be able to do whatever they like, that's legal, on their own property or property they have a right to occupy. Long term camping or living off the grid should be every citizens right, IMHO.

I may agree with you, if you will explain to me what you mean by “that’s legal.”

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   16:52:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Gatlin (#33)

I may agree with you, if you will explain to me what you mean by “that’s legal.”

Well... living or camping are both legal activities. The only time either activity would be illegal, is when you are living or camping on property you have no right to be on. So... if a family owns acreage... they should be allowed to "live or camp" in any way they see fit to raise their children, UNLESS they are putting their minor children in PHYSICAL danger.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-06-16   16:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: GrandIsland (#34)

I may agree with you, if you will explain to me what you mean by “that’s legal.”

Well... living or camping are both legal activities. The only time either activity would be illegal, is when you are living or camping on property you have no right to be on. So... if a family owns acreage... they should be allowed to "live or camp" in any way they see fit to raise their children, UNLESS they are putting their minor children in PHYSICAL danger.

Living and camping are both legal activities when they do not violate county codes and zoning ordinances.

If someone violates those, then “that’s NOT legal” ... is it?

If you are saying the codes and ordinances are often time too restrictive (which I believe they were for the couple in the article, and should not be so), then I am in one hundred percent agreement with you. Those codes and ordinances need to be changed.

If you are saying each individual gets to decide what is legal and what is not….then I don’t understand your position.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   17:08:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Gatlin (#35)

If you are saying that the only illegal thing that happened was an ordinance violation, then why remove kids? Ticket the parents and be done with it.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-06-16   17:11:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: GrandIsland (#36)

If you are saying that the only illegal thing that happened was an ordinance violation, then why remove kids? Ticket the parents and be done with it.

Based on the one article I discovered for a county in the area, I believe it was an ordinance violation. Living off the grid is not permitted.

I have no idea why the kids were removed from them. But then these yellow journalism articles never tell the complete story to truthfully explain why anything happens. It may have been the lack of sanitary facilities the children were living under for a long period of time….I do hate to speculate, but you asked.

Having read and analyzed enough of these yellow journalism article, I simply cannot believe the kids were taken away from their parents merely because they were camping….which is exactly what the article said happened.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   17:33:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Gatlin (#37) (Edited)

I have no idea why the kids were removed from them. But then these yellow journalism articles never tell the complete story to truthfully explain why anything happens. It may have been the lack of sanitary facilities the children were living under for a long period of time….I do hate to speculate, but you asked.

That's why I don't like commenting on agenda based articles... HOWEVER, an ordinance that says "living off the grid" on your own property, outside of an urban city setting, should be struck down as unconstitutional.

People should be allowed to raise their children the way they see fit as long as they aren't physically placed in harms way. IMHO.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-06-16   17:37:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: GrandIsland (#38)

HOWEVER, an ordinance that says "living off the grid" on your own property, outside of an urban city setting, should be struck down as unconstitutional.

Should there not be county codes?

There are reasons codes and ordinances are established, albeit some we know are ill conceived and badly worded and poorly enforced. But most are there for a reason.

I am going to give you a hypothesis that is entirely within the realm of possibility.

You live outside an urban city setting, in the country in a county.

A family of 8 lives on their plot of land just upgrade from you. They are living off the grid using an outhouse. Each time it rains heavily, the shit from their outhouse washes down the slope and catches to stack up at your front door step.

In the world of today, the “county” codes and ordinances would have prevented that from happening.

In the situation and conditions you have laid it, this would be okay with you? Of course not.

A ridiculous analogy….guilty of making one. But a realistic possibility….you betcha.

There are valid reasons for codes outside urban settings.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-06-16   17:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Fred Mertz (#26) (Edited)

When I was growing up in Northwestern Ohio, (Toledo area) we kids would spend many a summer at grandpa's farm near Jackson, KY. We didn't have indoor plumbing - I remember taking baths in a huge wash tub, water heated by burning wood.

We had an outhouse until probably 1961, cooked food on a coal-burning stove and *gasp* guess what?

We drank RAW milk.

Oh - and we ate chickens, eggs and meat from hogs and cows all raised on the farm, and we didn't have any of it inspected.

Whenever I post a story like this, the nanny-staters come crawling out of the woodwork to defend this tyrannical bullshit.

And these folks were only camping.

On PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Gatlin would have you believe that the family was living there permanently - I don't know, is there some obscure law that limits the amount of days one can live in a tent?

They own a home.

The same people here cheering for the government in this case are the same people cheering the government when they shut down a lemonade stand or a bake sale.

What the fuck is wrong with these assholes?

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-06-16   17:52:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Gatlin (#39)

A family of 8 lives on their plot of land just upgrade from you. They are living off the grid using an outhouse. Each time it rains heavily, the shit from their outhouse washes down the slope and catches to stack up at your front door step.

I would take a bulldozer and conform my property so runoff wouldn't run on my property... and I'd send their shit back to them. Even if I had to bring in several hundred ton of hard fill.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-06-16   18:33:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: VxH (#20)

There was a fight though. My grandfather was one of the workers on strike. I never met the man, but my grandma told me about it one day when I was musing about the Teamsters thuggery under Hoffa. She also related personal information about the WW I veterans killed in DC area when they showed up looking for what they thought they were owed. She was a very independent woman, voted for Nixon, Goldwater and raised 8 children as a widow. She opened my eyes to the absolute tyranny of corporate masters left unchecked by govt, and that of the govt when unchecked by the same. I once had a very beautiful woman reject me after I related my grandmas do's and don'ts of life. Never take welfare, she didn't. Never get on unemployment, you will get lazy...she didn't. Never ever ask for a handout, offer instead your skills in exchange for what you need. Not a loss that I missed out on a interesting relationship, she was a die hard collectivist progressive. My grandma? what a great woman she was. Postmaster, school teacher, cooked at her uncles ranch, and took in sewing to feed her kids. Wish I were half the "man" she was. I will miss her forever and a day.

jeremiad  posted on  2015-06-17   20:35:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: jeremiad (#42)

My dad and his LEO co-workers used to stop at Ludlow site when we went camping in Southern Colorado. It was evidently something they thought about in the context of the conflict that existed circa 1968.

Human nature produces pretty much the same results when it operates collectively and unrestrained. That's true whether the collective/corporate body is constituted by government workers, what you call "corporate masters", or the unionized/collectivized proletariat.

The old money knows all about the nature of the cattle in its purview.

It's predictable.

Being predictable makes it profitable.

Thus the only way to escape the prison is to change the nature - which is what the American founders tried to do when they created a Republic having as its declared purpose: "TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS".

VxH  posted on  2015-06-18   0:05:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Gatlin (#29) (Edited)

but that was BACK IN THE DAY, and not today.

Oh? Because I'm pretty sure I stopped there a few months ago with my family.

What do you do when you go backpacking - have the Gooberment chopper in a porta potty?

VxH  posted on  2015-06-18   19:00:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Deckard (#40)

We had an outhouse until probably 1961, cooked food
on a coal-burning stove and *gasp* ...

Yeah - I've heard the stories from my Mom.
She, her sister and my grandparents left Philadelphia
in the 1940s and moved to rural Browns Mills, NJ.
My grandparents established a small farm there.

But no - they didn't stay there. Early 1950s they
moved on to the resort / shore town of Wildwood, NJ.
Opened a general store / ice cream parlor.
They did pretty well.

My point is of the rural conditions in Browns Mills.
Which is probably why they left there...

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-06-18   20:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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