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Title: Alabama Senate Votes to End State Marriage Licenses
Source: FEE
URL Source: http://fee.org/anythingpeaceful/det ... to-end-state-marriage-licenses
Published: Jun 2, 2015
Author: Jeffery Tucker
Post Date: 2015-06-02 12:08:07 by cranko
Keywords: None
Views: 11055
Comments: 69

Why are there marriage “licenses” – a permission slip granted or denied by the state – rather than just contracts like any other? Why does government stand in the position to veto the choices of two people who want to commit to each other?

These are questions that the Alabama Senate considered in May this year. The result was the passage of Senate Bill 377, supported by 22 senators and opposed by only 3. Under this legislation, licenses would no longer exist for marriage. Marriage would become a plain contract filed with the Probate offices.

In effect, this would restore the traditional role of law in marriage as it has existed in most times and places, before the racially motivated and eugenically inspired idea of “marriage licenses” came along in the early part of the 20th century.

Governments embraced them as part of a larger effort to stop race mixing and to reduce procreation among undesirables. They were later entrenched as a standard of proof for government benefits claimants.

The conception of marriage as a legal contract, in contrast, exists as the private decision of the parties involved, along with a legal representative (and/or clergy) and witnesses. Just as anyone can make a contract for goods and services, marriage would become purely a matter of individual choice, not government decree.

This step would go a long way toward ending the division and confusion over marriage that has taken over the state, pitting one group against another and leading to a tug-of-war between the federal government and a politically ambitious judge in the state who speaks for religious fundamentalists.

It would bring about a nearly complete ceasefire in this front of the trumped-up culture war. Surprisingly, the moved has been welcomed by most, if only as an answer to the legal confusions that have come about from conflicting court orders.

In January, a federal court ruled that Alabama must grant licenses to same- sex couples.

In response, the fundamentalist state Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore (of the 10 Commandments Monument fame) issued a directive telling probate justices to ignore the rule.

In March, the Supreme Court issued an edict stopping judges from issuing any licenses to same-sex couples. Moreover, following the Senate passage of this bill, a US District Court ordered the state to comply with federal mandates.

As a result, no one knows for sure what to do, and thousands of same-sex couples, driven out of the state in order to marry, are unclear whether their unions are recognized by the state.

How such a dramatic shift would affect the thousands of legal benefits and privileges afforded to those with licenses is unclear. Regardless, it will be worth the test because the current system is outdated, anachronistic, and deeply divisive. As long as government is the decision maker, the voting citizenry imagines itself to have a stake in the shape of decisions that should only involve those party to the exchange.

It would also end the dispute over finding a legal definition of marriage that applies to all. Keep in mind that this is not only about same-sex couples. Many religious traditions have strict rules concerning what is and is not a valid marriage. The Catholic Church, for example, will not codify a second marriage if the first one remains not annulled by Church courts. Their conceptions are not the same as the states’.

The search for a single definition for everyone, created and enforced by the state, is untenable, and threatens actual damage to the institution and to millions of people who, for whatever private reason, happen to disagree. The move from licenses to contracts would leave the terms and conditions entirely up to the couple. The civic order as such has no role whatsoever in intervening.

What is driving this change? Some people speculate that conservative Alabama politicians and judges anticipate being forced by courts to accept same-sex marriage and want nothing to do with it. By getting rid of licenses completely, they remove their own moral (or electoral) culpability for legally approving something they find offensive. Perhaps that's right, but ulterior motives aside, it seems like a step in the right direction.

To be sure, this is not a perfect solution. The best answer would leave marriage entirely up to private parties. In my own case, in 2014, I officiated at a wedding in which the couple filed their vows and promises on the Blockchain, a distributed ledger that provides an immutable record. Though it has no legal standing now, the couple was anticipating a time when marriage is completely taken out of the realm of public policy altogether.

Nonetheless, the end of the license and its replacement with a plain contract would take us a long way in the direction of the goal: a complete wall of separation between the state and marriage. Otherwise, the culture war will continue without end, and everyone will lose.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 59.

#1. To: All (#0)

State governments first started requiring marriage licenses during the Progressive Era to prevent whites from marrying people of other races.

So, government marriage licenses have been a corrupt enterprise from the very beginning.

It's time to end them.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-02   12:10:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: cranko (#1) (Edited)

State governments first started requiring marriage licenses during the Progressive Era to prevent whites from marrying people of other races.

So, government marriage licenses have been a corrupt enterprise from the very beginning.

It's time to end them.

That is very true and it was also done to do blood tests to prevent people from being married that would produce a bad result like sickle cell. That is why in movies from the 40s there is always this "blood test" that has to be performed before a license is granted. It is a left over from the eugenics movement.

I tried to explain this to social conservatives who wanted to prevent gay marriage and my recommendation (proposed by libertarians which I agreed with) was to get the govt out of granting marriage licenses and tax credits for marriage (not fair to single people anyway). The reason marriage is an equal rights issue is because married couples get benefits and non married couples don't.

But the social conservatives refused to hear this. They actively want the govt enforcing marriage codes and licenses as long as it meets their version of marriage. Sadly, that is not possible any longer.

Pericles  posted on  2015-06-02   12:34:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Pericles (#3)

Social "Conservatives" have been trying to win at the Progressive's game -- control big government for their own ends.

But they can't win at this game. So, we need to change the game.

The libertarians are right -- the only way to prevent Progressives from shoving their views down our throats is to take away the power of big government.

Unfortunately, some people aren't too bright.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-02   12:56:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: cranko, TooConservative, GarySpFc, Liberator (#4)

Social "Conservatives" have been trying to win at the Progressive's game -- control big government for their own ends.

Not exactly. Most Christians who are social conservatives don't want government to take a stand one way or the other.

It was when homosexuals et al. started legislating their latest habit or hobby that Christians used the ballot box and courts to fight government from endorsing or taking sides in the culture war.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-06-02   16:58:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: redleghunter (#9)

Most Christians who are social conservatives don't want government to take a stand one way or the other.

Please tell that to Rick Santorum, Mike Huckleberry and their supporters.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-02   18:57:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: cranko, GarySpFc (#14)

Well yes. They are involved. In some cases rightfully so. How can a Christian stand by and watch our government allow innocent children getting slaughtered in the name of convenience when Christians have a right to vote and freedom of speech?

Christians involved in social issues is a reactionary response to wholesale government endorsement of satanic practices and endorsements.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-06-03   1:38:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: redleghunter (#22)

How can a Christian stand by and watch our government allow innocent children

Whoa....

This thread is about marriage.

You said that "Social Conservatives" want the government to be neutral.

So then, how to explain the "Defense of Marriage Act" which puts the FEDERAL government in charge of marriage?

The only way to explain it is to admit that you are full of CRAP -- "Social Conservatives" DO want to use big government to force their values on all of us, no different than Progressives.

It's all wrong. "Conservatives" should be promoting LESS federal government and more individual liberty.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-03   17:57:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: cranko, redleghunter (#48)

So then, how to explain the "Defense of Marriage Act" which puts the FEDERAL government in charge of marriage?

By quoting the codified language of DOMA. It defines the meaning of the word marriage within Federal laws, rulings and reglations; and it exempts States from giving effect to certain marriage related acts of other States. How is the Federal government in charge of marriage? If it was, it would seem State laws would be uniform.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/7

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word “marriage” means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word “spouse” refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1738C

No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-06-03   18:21:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: nolu chan (#52)

Oh please.

You know damn well that once the federal government gets involved in something, they can use funding as a leverage to force the states to comply with their wishes.

This is how Carter was able to force the 55 mph speed limit and the 21 year old drinking age on the states.

Both Santorum and Huckleberry would seek to expand DOMA to deny funding in any area they can to prevent states from legalizing gay marriage.

DOMA is their foot in the door.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-03   18:35:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: cranko (#53)

DOMA is their foot in the door.

You referred to DOMA as putting the Federal government in charge of marriage. What is the Federal government in charge of?

nolu chan  posted on  2015-06-03   18:42:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: nolu chan (#54)

I already answered your question. Let me try one more time.

The very fact that federal government is involved in the issue puts them in charge, or at least in a position to be in charge if they want to be (which means they are in charge).

This whole DOMA discussion got stated when someone said that "social conservatives" want the government to be neutral here. It's just not true. Had Huckleberry won the Presidency in 2008 instead of Obama, the federal government would be doing everything possible to force the states to prohibit marriage licenses to homosexual couples.

How do I know this??? HISTORY. Once the federal government get's involved, they are in control.

The right answer is to keep the federal government out of these issues altogether. But "social conservatives" have deluded themselves into thinking that they can win at the "Progressives" big government game. They have never been able to do this in the past and they are highly unlikely to be able to do this in the future.

cranko  posted on  2015-06-03   19:05:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: cranko (#57)

What is the Federal government in charge of?

I already answered your question. Let me try one more time.

The very fact that federal government is involved in the issue puts them in charge, or at least in a position to be in charge if they want to be (which means they are in charge).

Try again. In charge of what? How?

There is no Federal license to marry.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/marriage

Marriage is chiefly regulated by the states. The Supreme Court has held that states are permitted to reasonably regulate the institution by prescribing who is allowed to marry and how the marriage can be dissolved. Entering into a marriage changes the legal status of both parties and gives both husband and wife new rights and obligations. One power that the states do not have, however, is that of prohibiting marriage in the absence of a valid reason. For example, prohibiting interracial marriage is unconstitutional because it violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.

- - - - -

This whole DOMA discussion got stated when someone said that "social conservatives" want the government to be neutral here. It's just not true. Had Huckleberry won the Presidency in 2008 instead of Obama, the federal government would be doing everything possible to force the states to prohibit marriage licenses to homosexual couples.

How do I know this??? HISTORY. Once the federal government get's involved, they are in control.

Let's try a new history lesson.

The excursion into the imaginary effect of DOMA began here:

[cranko #48] So then, how to explain the "Defense of Marriage Act" which puts the FEDERAL government in charge of marriage?

The 2015 claim that DOMA puts the Federal government in charge of marriage is killer history.

Earlier I quoted from the codified text to show that it never did put the Federal government in charge of marriage.

What is the Federal government in charge of?

I already answered your question. Let me try one more time.

The very fact that federal government is involved in the issue puts them in charge, or at least in a position to be in charge if they want to be (which means they are in charge).

Try again. In charge of what? How?

There is no Federal license to marry.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/marriage

Marriage is chiefly regulated by the states. The Supreme Court has held that states are permitted to reasonably regulate the institution by prescribing who is allowed to marry and how the marriage can be dissolved. Entering into a marriage changes the legal status of both parties and gives both husband and wife new rights and obligations. One power that the states do not have, however, is that of prohibiting marriage in the absence of a valid reason. For example, prohibiting interracial marriage is unconstitutional because it violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.

- - - - -

This whole DOMA discussion got stated when someone said that "social conservatives" want the government to be neutral here. It's just not true. Had Huckleberry won the Presidency in 2008 instead of Obama, the federal government would be doing everything possible to force the states to prohibit marriage licenses to homosexual couples.

How do I know this??? HISTORY. Once the federal government get's involved, they are in control.

Let's try a new history lesson.

The excursion into the imaginary effect of DOMA began here:

[cranko #48] So then, how to explain the "Defense of Marriage Act" which puts the FEDERAL government in charge of marriage?

The 2015 claim that DOMA puts the Federal government in charge of marriage is killer history.

Earlier I quoted from the codified text to show that it never did put the Federal government in charge of marriage.

As for 2015, history suggests that the Supreme Court ruled DOMA unconstitutional in 2013.

The case is United States v. Windsor, U.S. Sup. Ct. 12-307 (26 Jun 2013).

nolu chan  posted on  2015-06-03   20:21:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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