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Source: Politico URL Source: http://www.politico.com/magazine/st ... 8035.html?hp=t2_r#.VVnQK_lVhHx Published: May 17, 2015 Author: DANIEL J. MCGRAW Post Date: 2015-05-18 07:50:21 by Jameson Keywords: Old Angry, White, Guys Views: 27947 Comments: 128 It turns out that one of the Grand Old Party’s biggest—and least discussed—challenges going into 2016 is lying in plain sight, written right into the party’s own nickname. The Republican Party voter is old—and getting older, and as the adage goes, there are two certainties in life: Death and taxes. Right now, both are enemies of the GOP and they might want to worry more about the former than the latter. There’s been much written about how millennials are becoming a reliable voting bloc for Democrats, but there’s been much less attention paid to one of the biggest get-out-the-vote challenges for the Republican Party heading into the next presidential election: Hundreds of thousands of their traditional core supporters won’t be able to turn out to vote at all. The party’s core is dying off by the day. Read more: www.politico.com/magazine...118035.html#ixzz3aURTGXqk Click for Full Text! Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: All (#0) “The [GOP] does rely too much on older and white voters, and especially in rural areas, deaths from this group can be significant,” Frey says. “But millennials (born 1981 to 1997) now are larger in numbers than baby boomers ([born] 1946 to 1964), and how they vote will make the big difference. And the data says that if Republicans focus on economic issues and stay away from social ones like gay marriage, they can make serious inroads with millennials.” Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/the-gop-is-dying-off-literally-118035.html#ixzz3aUTBFc5p Interesting analysis............... "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   7:56:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: Jameson (#0) The GOP represents crony capitalists. That's its core. Those are the people who always get everything that want out of the GOP. To get the votes and the seats to advance that agenda, the GOP has in contemporary times made allies with militarists and pro-life Christians, gun nuts and other so-called "conservative" causes. The problem, though, is that crony capitalists in general are liberal rich people, so they WANT abortion rights, and gun control, and open borders, and they want government contracts but not full-on wars to victory that require tax hikes. And, because the Republicans always do the bidding of the crony capitalists, who are really liberal on social issues, the result has been that the systematic betrayal of the Christian pro-lifers, the Borderbots, the gun nuts and the soldiery. Republicans only fight to the death for one thing: low taxes on the rich (and contracts for cronies). Everything else is negotiable. Net result? The crony capitalists are intensely loyal to the GOP base, but others have left, stayed home, given up. And it isn't as though Mexicans, or young people, or really, anybody, is flocking into the GOP. It's time for a new party. Crony capitalism has a death grip on the Republican Party that cannot be, and will never be, pried loose. People have two choices: form a new party, or satisfy themselves with Democrat rule. I'm not satisfied with Democrat rule. I want to see a third party. But Republican rule is godawful and old people are stubborn. So we're going to get Hillary. Oh well. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   8:13:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: Vicomte13 (#2) I'm not satisfied with Democrat rule. I want to see a third party. But Republican rule is godawful and old people are stubborn. So we're going to get Hillary. But you mostly sing the praises of Blue state Dem ideology. It's a constant theme in your writing. You like the Dems. You're only squeamish about abortion but not enough to do anything about it. So you object but not all that much. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   8:22:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: Jameson, A K A Stone, Devil Anse (#0) This poster is nothing but a liberal troll. His posting history is anticonservative attack pieces and he has never posted a single comment on LF. Jameson is the very definition of a seminar poster and liberal troll. Isn't it time to just ban him? If we wanted to read liberal garbage, we could go to the big libmedia outlets instead of posting here. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   8:28:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: TooConservative (#4) Jameson is the very definition of a seminar poster and liberal troll. Yeah, So what do think about the point the author is making? "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   8:32:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: Jameson (#0) ...one of the biggest get-out-the-vote challenges for the Republican Party heading into the next presidential election: Hundreds of thousands of their traditional core supporters won’t be able to turn out to vote at all. The party’s core is dying off by the day. It's mostly a problem because Republican voters, unlike Democrats, stop voting after they're dead. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   8:34:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: TooConservative (#6) So, what should the gopers do about it? "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   8:41:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: Jameson (#0) When a person or group turn from their focus and try to be middle of the road or plain out and out liars about their beliefs, they deserve to die. The gop is made up of lying scum serving the god of the party of the democrat. I will absolutely guarantee you this. There is not one member of Congress, the administration or the courts that can recite the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution. Yet they swear to uphold it. But why should they, I will also guarantee you that less than 1/2 of 1% of posters on sites like Libertysflame and FreeRepublic have ever read both in their entirety. So why should politicians risk the millions in graft by reading either and having a guilty conscience? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:49:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: BobCeleste (#8) The gop is made up of lying scum serving the god of the party of the democrat. Ok, so I guess, if you agree with the author's analysis, the decline of the gop is a good thing? "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   8:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#3) (Edited) I'm not satisfied with Democrat rule. I want to see a third party. But Republican rule is godawful and old people are stubborn. So we're going to get Hillary. But you mostly sing the praises of Blue state Dem ideology. It's a constant theme in your writing. You like the Dems. You're only squeamish about abortion but not enough to do anything about it. So you object but not all that much. He is probably returning to his roots as a Catholic European style Christian democrat (big C, small D). I have made that journey as well - as I have mentioned many times over. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-18   8:57:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Vicomte13 (#2) I'm not satisfied with Democrat rule. I want to see a third party. Until the asteroid hits (either literally or figuratively), I don't see a viable third party forming. Instead what I believe will happen is the gop branch of the ruling class WILL die off (actually it's been dead since at least the '08 election, it just doesn't know it yet). And before anyone brings up the '10 and '14 mid-terms and the seeming gop resurgence, remember that was a result of people voting AGAINST Zero's rule and not FOR the gop.) No one knows WHERE the gop stands on anything, and in a general election you can't beat something with nothing. So what happens after the gop goes the way of Packard, Studebaker, Plymouth and Oldsmobile? Politics dictate that there be two parties, so two parties there shall be. The ruling class will still be made up of two so-called parties - one will be slightly to the "right" of the other. Believe it or not, the pols like Zero, McConnell, Boehner and Reid will inhabit the "right-wing" party; while the Liz Warrens, the Rand Pauls, the Bernie Sanders and O'Malleys will reside in the "left-wing" branch. And opportunists like the Xlintons will go wherever the wind blows. What will these parties be called? Well, the right wing branch could keep the name democrat, while the lefties - now that Socialism is mainstream - might just go with that as a moniker. Then we'll be all set. Until the asteroid hits . . . Rufus T Firefly  posted on  2015-05-18   9:38:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Vicomte13 (#2) Oh well. What are your thoughts on a constitutional convention? "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   10:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: TooConservative (#3) (Edited) But you mostly sing the praises of Blue state Dem ideology. It's a constant theme in your writing. You like the Dems. You're only squeamish about abortion but not enough to do anything about it. So you object but not all that much. Well, Too, see, it's like this. Somewhere else you posted that Catholics never do anything politically. That is not true. Catholics are nothing if not confident in their theology. And Catholic fundamentalist theology is fundamentally different from the Calvinist Protestant theology that dominated America until the big waves of Catholic immigration took over the large Northern cities in the early to mid-20th Century. Protestants are insecure, so they attack Catholics a lot. Catholics are secure, and generally ignore it. So here's a primer in Catholic religion for you, Too. Catholic voting patterns fit the religion. The fundamentals of Catholicism are the things Jesus said to do: baptism, confession and penance, the eucharist, marriage, anointing the sick, caring for the poor and the sick and the orphan. Catholics don't think it's a Church obligations. Protestants have made a bifurcation between "Church" and "State", and Protestants are legalists, so it's a big deal. Also, Protestants believe in Calvinist "Election" - the well-to-do have money as a reward; the poor are poor because they are not elect. Poverty is an indication of moral fault, according to Protestants. According to Catholics, poverty is an indication of societal evil. How can I say, then, that Catholics don't think that poverty relief and education and orphanages and the like is not a Church obligation, given that the Catholics do more of that worldwide than the United Nations, and are by far the largest source of it in America too? Because Catholics think it's a HUMAN obligation, binding on all. Protestants bifurcate Church and State - the CHURCH does thus and so, but the STATE does different things. But Catholics believe that the state is just made up of people, and people have the obligation to Christian charity in ALL things they do, including their exercises of political authority. Therefore, it is obvious to Catholics that the government, being the biggest organization of people around, should be using its power to educate, to heal the sick, to feed and house the poor. Everything that the Church does, Catholics believe that ALL Churches, Temples and governments ought to be doing. People should not be accumulating vast masses of money, and if they do, they should be putting much of that money to use taking care of the poor. That is best done, Catholics believe, on the individual level, the family level, the church level, the community level, the state level, the national level and the international level. ALL levels of human governance and organization should ALL be engaged in poverty relief, all the time. That is the primary role of human economics, according to Catholics. THEREFORE, Catholics support a heavy Church infrastructure, with Catholic schools, orphanages, health clinics, soup kitchen, immigrant services, hospitals and parish churches everywhere in the world. AND Catholic voters ALSO support a heavy social safety net, paid for by government, to do the same things: universal public education, not threadbare but robust, universal health care, Social Security, Unemployment benefits - Catholics fully support all of these things. As for paying for them, Catholics know that all money belongs to God. No man owns any property. All money is God's money. Men are merely stewards of it. God commanded that that money be used for poverty relief. Therefore, Catholics simply ignore the arguments that charity is optional. No, it's not optional. It's a commandment of God. For the rich to pretend that it's THEIR money and they can do as they please with it is false. It's God's money, God already said what must be done with it, as long as there is poverty, and Catholics have always believed that government is from God, and that men in government have been given the sword by God to enforce God's laws. Therefore, progressive taxation to support social states that greatly strengthen the social safety net that the Catholics also try to provide is viewed as a religious imperative. So, while Protestants have arguments about public and private, Catholics think that it's all God's, that nothing is private, and that of course governments not only must perform social welfare and justice - because governments are made of men - but that God gave governments the sword to compel social welfare transfers from those who would steal God's money and hoard it and refuse to use it as God commanded. It's not YOUR money. It's GOD'S money. Every penny of it. If you're hoarding it and opposing social welfare, you are stealing God's money. Of course the magistrates may intervene, with taxes and the sword, to extract from you the portion of God's money that the people have determined is needed, and use it for the purposes God commands. Catholics feel that the social welfare state is a divine obligation, and that refusing to support it is a defiance of God, and stealing from God. Now, of course, Protestants say that this is socialism, that ONLY private charity is really charity, blah, blah, blah. That's what Protestants think. Catholics think that's nonsense. And Catholics legislate their beliefs. Jews are very similar in their beliefs. Where Catholics and Jews differ is over abortion. Abortion is ONE aspect of the evils of society. But tearing down the social safety net would kill more people through starvation and disease and poverty than abortion does. So Catholics split over party, with more going Democrat than Republican, because Republicans are mean-spirited, greedy rich people who want to screw the poor, and who DO screw the poor whenever they get power. Also, Republicans have had power, and did nothing about abortion when they had it, so it isn't even a tradeoff. You bellow at me, Too, as though I am ignorant. But actually, I come from an immensely old, immensely strong faith tradition, for whom the United States is but a new and transient thing - a think that started Protestant and quite evil, with the murder of Indians and enslavement of blacks, but that has become better. In 1932, FDR was able to become President and institute the New Deal in part because the Catholics united behind him for social welfare. That has remained the case. I detest the Democrat Party because they are babykillers. I detest the Republican Party because they are thieves who ignore God's law concerning poverty and the proper uses of wealth. IF the Republicans actually used their power, which they've always had, to strike down Roe and end abortion, I would stick with them EVEN THOUGH I think they are deeply sinful on matters of money, because I think saving babies' lives is more important. But the fact is that Republicans put Roe in place, have always had the power to strike it down, and don't. So they're no pro-life: they're liars. THe people who vote for them because they're pro-life are just dupes. Of course I don't vote for Democrats because they are babykillers, but Democrats, at least, understand the necessity for universal public education, labor protection, Social Security and universal health insurance. Republicans lie about abortion and actively seek to gut social welfare. In general, therefore, I think that the Catholics have by and large made the right decision by splitting on abortion, but being mostly Democrat. I do think that Catholic politicians who overtly support abortion should be excommunicated. Now, what I think ought to happen is that the Catholics should be the leaders for a new party that is socially conservative (pro-life, no gay marriage), fiscally liberal: preserve and improve the social welfare state, and anti-imperialist, seeking peace abroad. Neither party offers that, and I think that a lot of people would come out of both parties for that. So, you're always bellyaching at me as though I'm an ignoramus, Too. But Catholics are not ignorant. We came into this country as minorities and were hated. We have been told all along that we have to choose sides within the system. We have chosen, instead, to take over the system and reshape America according to Catholic values. Mexican immigration allows that to continue apace. If the choice is between pro-life or social welfare, the answer is to reject that choice and reject the offer of it, and insist on both pro-life AND social welfare. The Democrats give social welfare. The Republicans hate social welfare, AND they don't do anything about abortion either, even though they have the power to. Which means that Democrats are in general better overall from a Catholic viewpoint than Republicans. If Republicans actually used their power to strike down abortion that would change things. But it's clear that they'll never do any such thing. The Republicans lost my allegiance when Bush tried to foist Harriet Miers on the Court, and the Bush brothers and the Republican Congress and Republican Federal judiciary all stood by and let Terri Schiavo be murdered during Easter week. Republicans are liars who connive at babykilling and who steal God's money. Democrats are babykillers who strongly support the social safety net. You say that I don't do anything about abortion. There's nothing I personally CAN do about abortion. Voting and supporting Republicans is obviously totally worthless in that regard. A Republican Supreme Court GAVE US Roe, and the Supreme Court has been Republican ever since. They always could strike it down. They won't. Every member has been replaced. All the Republicans are new - and the Republicans applied no pro-life litmus test the way the Democrats apply a pro-abortion litmus test. Which means that the Republicans just want the Christian votes and lie about being pro-life, but are in fact pro-choice as a party. Protestants, characteristically, are emotional, stupid and hysterical, so they get stampeded by the Republicans and vote for them. Catholics are smarter, see the bigger truth, and vote for social welfare when they vote for Democrats, because they know that NEITHER party is going to protect babies. So we have social welfare, at least. The Republicans would destroy THAT, and STILL not overturn Roe. You say that's the way it is. But I say that the reason we have social welfare and desegregation is because the Know-Nothings were right: the Catholics came in and started to reshape the country to our values. As our numbers grew, Americans became more and more of a social welfare state. Those are Catholic values. Immigration and demographic trends means that we did change the country and will continue to do so, and to safeguard the changes we achieved. Abortion is the final frontier. That will take more time to address, and maybe people are too weak to ever address it. We already know that Republicans are. That's too bad. But the Republicans are not the better choice because they lie about it. They're the worse choice because in addition to giving the country Roe, they also want to unravel the social safety net. It was the Catholic vote that gave us a social safety net - the Northern urban vote that went for FDR was the Democrats. And the Catholic vote will continue to grow and grow, and will support the social safety net and repair, not repeal Obamacare. That's the current fight: Obamacare. Catholics support it. Therefore, universal medical insurance is a fait accompli, and will remain so. So, you look and see somebody who is foolish because he won't join your cause, which you say is the only game in town. But I say that Catholics have been changing the game ever since we started immigrating, and that we will continue to do so. Rather than ally with the bad guys - the greedy ones who want to steal God's money - I prefer to sit aside and wait. Political parties think in election cycles. The Catholic Church thinks in centuries. I'll close with a line from a musical that was popular in the 1980s: "The actress hasn't learned the lines you'd like to hear. She won't join your clubs. She won't dance in your halls. She would help the hungry once a month at your tombolas. She'll simply take control as you disappear." - Evita. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:38:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Jameson (#12) What are your thoughts on a constitutional convention? I'm mildly in favor,for the same reason I favor Scottish independence: it will be entertaining. I doubt anything good will come out of a convention, because the entrenched powers are too entrenched, so they'll just use the convention to further entrench and streamline. But I'm prepared to be surprised. A constitutional amendment that stated that life began at conception and (therefore) banned abortion outright would be good. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:41:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: Pericles (#10) He is probably returning to his roots as a Catholic European style Christian democrat (big C, small D). I have made that journey as well - as I have mentioned many times over. That's right. I'm a Christian democrat: socially conservative, fiscally liberal. There's no party for me in America. Yet. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:43:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: Pericles (#10) He is probably returning to his roots as a Catholic European style Christian democrat (big C, small D). I have made that journey as well - as I have mentioned many times over. You guys are liberal Catholics. This is me, all shocked and stuff. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   10:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: Rufus T Firefly (#11) No one knows WHERE the gop stands on anything I do. THESE are the CORE beliefs of the Republican Party - the non-negotiable terms of their political engagement: (1) All taxes on capital gains, dividends, estates or corporations are evil. The tax burden for the country should be borne by the middle class and working class. (2) The social safety net is expensive, and should be privatized so as to allow the profits from its operation to flow into private hands. To the extent it cannot be privatized, it should be abolished. (3) Free trade and the unguarded borders are good, because they provide a steady source of cheap exploitable labor, driving the cost of labor relentlessly downward. Those three things are not negotiable. Republicans will lie, prevaricate and shift around, but they'll always come down on the side of their core constituency. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:48:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: Vicomte13 (#13) TL;DR Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   10:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: TooConservative (#16) You guys are liberal Catholics. No. Just Catholics. Social Welfare is not liberal. It is a 4000 year old commandment of God. People who oppose social welfare are not "conservative", they are evil or they are dupes, serving Satan. Abortion is murder. So is military adventure abroad. Those things must be stopped. Gay marriage is not marriage. Immigrants are human beings with rights and needs. If we want to stop illegal immigration, then all of the money we pour into wars and Israeli imperialism should instead be poured into developing Mexico, so the people who immigrate here stay there. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:51:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: TooConservative (#6) It's mostly a problem because Republican voters, unlike Democrats, stop voting after they're dead. :) “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-18   10:51:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: TooConservative (#18) TL DR Then you lose. Catholics move in centuries. Lots of thoughts. And they don't change to suit the locals. They breed and take over. If you don't want to read about it, just sit back and watch it continue to happen, in living color, on your TV screen, over the course of the rest of your life. The good news is that Social Security and Medicare - especially that - will be with you and your wife at the end when you really need it. That's because Catholics sided with FDR and the Dems ever since, and made for a reasonable social safety net. You'd like to pull it apart, but you can't because we're too strong, and getting stronger. And changing the country to suit us. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-18   10:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: redleghunter, tooconservative (#20) It's mostly a problem because Republican voters, unlike Democrats, stop voting after they're dead. If it is possible for vote fraud to take place. It will take place at every opportunity. Both parties will cheat if at all possible. "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   11:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Jameson (#0) The democrats are literally murdering their future base. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   11:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: Vicomte13 (#21) Social Security and Medicare Those are anti christian programs. The get their money through coercion and theft. They steal the fruits of ones labor to give it to another. Charity is free will not forced taxes. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   11:15:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: Vicomte13 (#19) Abortion is murder. So is military adventure abroad. So is gassing all the democrats. Like you proposed. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   11:17:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#21) And they don't change to suit the locals. They breed and take over. Don't make me laugh. The Vatican could get nuked and Europe would yawn. Or cheer. You could close every Catholic church in Europe and there'd be little excitement. The US is going the same direction. Catholics who are functional Protestants. I would insist we have already reached that point. We are well beyond "reservations of conscience" and have a very large plurality of "Catholics" who defy the pope and their bishops and refute the Church's entire body of doctrine at will. We see it with abortion and sodomy marriage the most clearly. Neither would be possible with the complicity of Blue state Catholics (people like you and your neighbors). I have a pretty good idea of who you are worshiping with. Mexico and the South American countries are increasingly moving in the same direction. Africa will remain as Catholicism's last heartland but it will likely lose to Islam there (or fight to a draw), just as Rome has been utterly defeated (again) in the Mideast. And the prospects of China allowing Catholicism to bloom (and with considerable potential) seem dismal, both now and well into the future. This pope is a historic calamity for Rome. Not that I mind. I would say he is a harbinger of Rome's final collapse as a real power and an authority. So spare me the chorus of The Church, Militant and Triumphant. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   11:18:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Jameson (#9) The gop is made up of lying scum serving the god of the party of the democrat. Ok, so I guess, if you agree with the author's analysis, the decline of the gop is a good thing? If you can not cure gangrene, you cut it out or burn it out, in other words what is beyond curing is killed. I believe, after the most recent elections, that the poison in the gop has gotten to the point where it can no longer be healed. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   11:20:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: Vicomte13 (#14) A constitutional amendment that stated that life began at conception and (therefore) banned abortion outright would be good. No, such an amendment would be bad, since it would attempt to give govt the power to issue and enforce a religious decree. Juries are empowered to decide when murder has been committed. It's the American/constitutional way, and let's leave it that way.. tpaine  posted on  2015-05-18   11:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#16) (Edited) He is probably returning to his roots as a Catholic European style Christian democrat (big C, small D). I have made that journey as well - as I have mentioned many times over. You guys are liberal Catholics. This is me, all shocked and stuff. The old tags of the current American political system apply to me. I find no identification with any political party in the USA. In Europe I would be easily identified as a Christian democrat. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-18   11:28:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, GarySpFc, liberator (#13) That is best done, Catholics believe, on the individual level, the family level, the church level, the community level, the state level, the national level and the international level. ALL levels of human governance and organization should ALL be engaged in poverty relief, all the time. That is the primary role of human economics, according to Catholics. I will agree with from the individual, family, church and local community level. After that greed is compounded. As you know, I have been on both sides of the Tiber. The best support for the poor is through local help and then outside the local community missionary volunteers. I still have some of my grand uncle's writings on his efforts at poverty relief. He traveled the world as a Catholic priest and at every turn he eventually hit the "Vatican wall." Meaning, a priest with a following of lay people to address poverty, also living humbly were crushed by church government. This is not a hit only on the Catholic church. It is any church that gets big and the church government takes on a life of its own. It happens in many denominations as we see corrupt non-denomination churches and Protestent churches have money scandals as well. The main critique I have of Catholic charties you state as a strength. Somewhere in the 60s, people like my uncle (who was not a communist nor a socialist politically) was inched aside and the humanist-socialists took root in the Catholic church. Focus was on getting government to do the work of Christians. The gospel became secondary so as not to offend others, and thus government became the 'god' of the poor. This empowered secular government and was a way to get votes (at least in this country and in Europe). The ideal of Christian love for the poor as the disciples practiced in the NT turned into the Catholic church and many other denominations becoming just another layer of social workers for the government. These Christian charities then took government grants to run their Christian charities and then later and now secular government started calling the shots on their 'morality'. Last year in IL a Catholic adoption service closed down because the state government demanded the Catholic service allow homosexual parents adopt the children under their care. They refused based on church teachings and had to close their doors. Same is coming for homosexual employees in such facilities and ministries. We should use the model of the early Christians in the NT. They provided for their church members from their own income and properties. Peter and Paul did not go to Caesar and the Roman senate to care for the poor of their church. Caesar and the Roman senate had every right given to secular authorities to care for the poor of the empire, as governments do today. We as Christians should not appeal to Caesar to take care of our own. When we outreach to those outside the church to bring the gospel for the soul and physical needs to the poor, we should not entangle ourselves with secular government. In the end they take over the operation and preach a different gospel which is not Christ's. “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-18   11:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: Vicomte13 (#17) THESE are the CORE beliefs of the Republican Party - the non-negotiable terms of their political engagement: (1) All taxes on capital gains, dividends, estates or corporations are evil. The tax burden for the country should be borne by the middle class and working class. You're hung up on party labels, and you've missed my point entirely. The republican party (or any party in 21st century America) is made up of people - and the PEOPLE who make it up are only interested in gaining power and/or making money. Beyond that, they have no core beliefs. In that regards they are EXACTLY the same as democrats, socialists or libertarians. Can you point out ANY political system where the burden of the cost of government is not borne by the so-called poor or working class? Did Stalin pay anything out of pocket? Castro? Mao? (2) The social safety net is expensive, and should be privatized so as to allow the profits from its operation to flow into private hands. To the extent it cannot be privatized, it should be abolished. There is a law - as certain as the law of gravity - called "supply and demand". That law crosses all political systems and stripes. One leg of the "social safety net" is health care and yes, it IS expensive. And making it "free" will only make it "scarce". Ask yourself - if you were a doctor and the govenment was willing to pay you 15/hr for your services, how long would you be a doctor? (3) Free trade and the unguarded borders are good, because they provide a steady source of cheap exploitable labor, driving the cost of labor relentlessly downward. You've just shot your own argument full of holes. Who is joining your evil republicans in "free" trade and open borders? Last time I checked, it was Zero. And as far as open borders and cheap labor - don't you think democrats salivate over the thought of millions of new democrat voters as much as gop'ers want cheap labor for their Chamber of Commerce masters? Those three things are not negotiable. Republicans will lie, prevaricate and shift around, but they'll always come down on the side of their core constituency. Take off your party blinders for a moment and admit to yourself - it's ALL about core constituencies. Yes, the GOP is dying (or already dead). But their core constituency will STILL have the illusion of being serviced - by the right wing branch of the ruling party (whatever label it ends up with). Just as left wing branch will have the illusion of ITS needs being addressed by the left wing branch. Meanwhile - the ruling class will continue to inhabit its plush offices and enjoy all the trappings of power. It will continue to exploit ALL of the rest of us and it will continue to pass laws that IT will not live under. That's what it's REALLy all about. Rufus T Firefly  posted on  2015-05-18   11:42:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Jameson (#22) If it is possible for vote fraud to take place. It will take place at every opportunity. Both parties will cheat if at all possible. Some are just better at doing it than others. Such was perfected by the Daily clan in Chicago. “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-18   11:42:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: tpaine (#28) No, such an amendment would be bad, since it would attempt to give govt the power to issue and enforce a religious decree. Don't be a moron. It would stop murders. Anyone favoring abortion should be strung up. Enforcing burglary is enforcing a religious decree. Enforcing rape is enforcing a religious decree. So according to your anything goes philosophy at least if you're consistent and you are not. You think rape should be legal because God said it was a sin. You are wacked in the head. Did you get run over by a semi as a kid? A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   11:53:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: Jameson (#0) The GOP Is Dying Off. The GOP was reafflicted with a terminal disease after Reagan left office. The Bushs and their ilk reinfected it. rlk  posted on  2015-05-18   12:09:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#26) The US is going the same direction. Catholics who are functional Protestants. I would insist we have already reached that point. We are well beyond "reservations of conscience" and have a very large plurality of "Catholics" who defy the pope and their bishops and refute the Church's entire body of doctrine at will. We see it with abortion and sodomy marriage the most clearly. Neither would be possible with the complicity of Blue state Catholics (people like you and your neighbors). I have a pretty good idea of who you are worshiping with. Mexico and the South American countries are increasingly moving in the same direction. Africa will remain as Catholicism's last heartland but it will likely lose to Islam there (or fight to a draw), just as Rome has been utterly defeated (again) in the Mideast. And the prospects of China allowing Catholicism to bloom (and with considerable potential) seem dismal, both now and well into the future. Some stats a poster at another site compiled. He links most of them. Between 2000 and 2004, the net gain (the number of new churches minus the closed churches) in the number of evangelical churches was 5,452, but mainline and Catholic churches closed more than they started for a net loss of 2,200, while a net gain of 13,024 churches was necessary to keep up with the U.S. population growth. At those rates, by 2050, the percentage of the U.S. population attending church will be almost half of what it was in 1990. http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts- an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html In numbers (not percentage), Catholicism, which lists 68.1 million in the US, has experienced “the greatest net loss” of any major religious group. members. The 'had it' Catholics,” National Catholic Reporter ,Oct. 11, 2001, based on reports from the 2008 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life survey and the National Council of Churches’ 2010 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches. 68% of those raised Roman Catholic still are Catholic (higher than the retention rates of individual Protestant denoms, but less than Jews at 76%). 15% are now Protestant (9% evangelical); 14% are unaffiliated. Pew forum, Faith in Flux (April 27, 2009) http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/fullreport.pdf 80% of adults who were raised Protestant are still Protestant, but (analysis shows) 25% no longer self-identify with the Protestant denomination in which they were raised. ^ 44 percent of Americans have switched religious affiliations since childhood, mostly mainline Protestants. 7% who were raised Protestant are now unaffiliated; 15% now belong to a different Protestant faith. ^ 51% of Protestants from a different Protestant denomination cite a lack of spiritual fulfillment as a reason for leaving their childhood faith. 85% say they joined their current denominational faith because they enjoy the services and style of worship. Only 15% left say they left because they stopped believing in its teachings. ^ Those who have left Catholicism outnumber those who have joined the Catholic Church by nearly a four-to-one margin. 10.1% have left the Catholic Church after having been raised Catholic, while only 2.6% of adults have become Catholic after having been raised in a different faith.^ 4% of Americans raised Catholic are now unaffiliated; 5% are now Protestant. ^ Over 75% of those who left Catholicism attended Mass at least once a week as children, versus 86% having done so who remain Catholics today.^ Regarding reasons for leaving Catholicism, less than 30% of former Catholics agreed that the clergy sexual abuse scandal played a role in their departure. ^ 71% of converts from Catholicism to Protestant faith said that their spiritual needs were not being met in Catholicism, with 78% of Evangelical Protestants in particular concurring, versus 43% of those now unaffiliated. ^ Only 23% (20% now evangelical) of all Protestants converts from Catholicism said they were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; 16% (12% now evangelical) were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control, 70% said they found a religion the liked more in Protestantism. 55% of evangelical converts from Catholicism cited dissatisfaction with Catholic teachings about the Bible was a reason for leaving Catholicism, with 46% saying the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough. 81% of all Protestant converts from Catholicism said they enjoyed the service and worship of Protestant faith as a reason for joining a Protestant denomination, with 62% of all Protestants and 74% Evangelicals also saying that they felt God's call to do so. ^ 42% of those now unaffiliated stated they do not believe in God, or most religious teaching. ^ 54% of “millennial generation” Catholics (born in 1982 or later) are Hispanics, while 39% are non-Hispanic whites. On the other hand, 76% of “pre-Vatican II generation” Catholics (born 1943 or earlier) are non-Hispanic whites, while 15% are Hispanics. Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University, September, 2010 . http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/6850/Openers-More-evidence-of-the-browning- of-US-Cat.aspx 68% of all Latinos in the U.S. identify as Catholics. Changing Faiths: Latinos and the Transformation of American Religion http://pewforum.org/Changing-Faiths- Latinos-and-the-Transformation-of-American-Religion.aspx Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion - American Piety in the 21 Century – 9-2006 http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf Among Catholics under the age of 30, 47% are white, and 45% are Latino. In contrast, among Catholics over the age of 65, 82% are white (Pew Forum 2007, reported in http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics- and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf) Latinos comprised 32 percent of all U.S. Catholics in 2008, versus to 20 percent in 1990. However, Catholic identification has slipped from 66 percent in 1990 to 60 percent in 2008. There has also been a significant rise in the number of Latinos who do not adhere to a religion. The longer a Latino has lived in the United States, the less likely he or she is to be Catholic. Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College, http://theamericano.com/2010/03/18/new-report-on-u-s-latino-religious- identification/ 18% of all Latinos say they have either converted from one religion to another or to no religion at all. http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/75.4.pdf 1,000 Mexicans left the Catholic Church every day between 2000 and 2010, a decline that has continued uninterrupted over the past 60 years, from 98.21 of the population to 83.9 percent today. Latin American Herald Tribune, March 10, 2011, based upon census data and study by sociologist and historian Roberto Blancarte of Colegio de Mexico and the National Autonomous University of Mexico The percentage of of Protestants and Evangelicals rose from 1.28% in 1950 to close to 8% of the total population in 2010, (excluding so-called Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons). 5.2 million say they profess no religion. ^ This decline is seen as extending across the region (Catholics represent between 55% to 73% in Central America, 70% in Brazil, 50% in Cuba and Uruguay).^ Brazil’s National Statistics Institute reported that the number of evangelical Christians in Brazil (the world’s largest Catholic country) has risen from 15% of the population in 2000 to to 22% of the population in 2010, and 4% 40 years ago, while the proportion of Catholic Brazilians fell from 93.% of Brazilians 40 years ago, and 74% of the population in 2000 to to 65% in 2010. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/29/ratio-of-evangelicals-in-brazil-jumps- 44-in-10-years/ Almost 20% of all Latino American Catholics have left the Roman Catholicism, with 23 percent of second-generation Latino Americans doing so. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf 54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=75 51% of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. ^ 82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. ^ Latino evangelicals are more than 20 percentage points more likely than Catholics to say that abortion should be illegal in most or all circumstances. http://www.nhclc.org/news/latino-religion-us-demographic-shifts-and-trend The first generation of Latino immigrants is 74 percent Catholic, and 15 percent Protestant. The second generation is 72 percent Catholic, and 20 percent Protestant. The third generation is 62 percent Catholic, and 29 percent Protestant. ^ According to the Census Bureau, the Latino population in the United States grew from 22.4 million in 1990 to 41.3 million in 2004, adding a staggering 18.9 million people in 10 years. Broader estimates, which include Puerto Rican islanders (4 million) and undocumented immigrants (5 million), put the U.S. Latino population at over 50 million. ^ In 2003, Latinos surpassed African-Americans as the largest minority group in the United States. Latinos now represent about 14 percent of the U.S. population. This growth is a result of both immigration and high domestic birth rates. About 53 percent of all immigrants to the United States come from Latin America. Mexicans and Mexican-Americans make up 58 percent of all foreign born Latin-American immigrants. More here: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html#DEMOGRAPHICS “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-18   12:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: rlk (#34) The GOP was reafflicted with a terminal disease after Reagan left office. The Bushs and their ilk reinfected it. Or, was it President Reagan who planted the seeds...? "we are tartets from evil doers!!!" [ and ] U looked up birfer on the dcitionary. It isn't a movie. Jameson  posted on  2015-05-18   12:21:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: Jameson (#36) was it President Reagan who planted the seeds...? No. rlk  posted on  2015-05-18   12:30:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: A K A Stone (#33) Vicomte13 (#14) --- A constitutional amendment that stated that life began at conception and (therefore) banned abortion outright would be good. No, such an amendment would be bad, since it would attempt to give govt the power to issue and enforce a religious decree. Juries are empowered to decide when murder has been committed. It's the American/constitutional way, and let's leave it that way.. AKA Stone ---- It would stop murders. Women won't stop aborting unless you try to jail them all. Anyone favoring abortion should be strung up. I don't favor it, -- or the hanging of women who do. Enforcing burglary is enforcing a religious decree. --- Enforcing rape is enforcing a religious decree. --- So according to your anything goes philosophy at least if you're consistent and you are not. You think rape should be legal because God said it was a sin. -- You are wacked in the head. Did you get run over by a semi as a kid? No, I don't think rape should be legal. Those who commit it, burglary or murder, should be tried by a jury. -- That's our constitutional way.. tpaine  posted on  2015-05-18   12:41:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: Pericles (#29) The old tags of the current American political system apply to me. Fine. You're honest about it. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   13:12:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: redleghunter (#30) Somewhere in the 60s, people like my uncle (who was not a communist nor a socialist politically) was inched aside and the humanist-socialists took root in the Catholic church. I recall reading a bio piece and interview of an old Catholic poverty worker some time back. A few of those folks are still with us but they are a dying breed unfortunately. Now we have the Sharpton element. We should use the model of the early Christians in the NT. They provided for their church members from their own income and properties. Peter and Paul did not go to Caesar and the Roman senate to care for the poor of their church. Caesar and the Roman senate had every right given to secular authorities to care for the poor of the empire, as governments do today. We as Christians should not appeal to Caesar to take care of our own. So we should ask Sheldon Adelson? How about the Koch brothers or Warren Buffet? You begin to move back on grounds that Vic argues well. And there is a fundamental problem with division of wealth. The dispute is how to alleviate that problem and tip the balance back toward the middle class without a politically controlled spoils system of direct government wealth transfer. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   13:18:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (41 - 128) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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