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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 69606 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-53) not displayed.       .       .       . #54. To: BobCeleste (#13) That is why you must study on your own. It really does defy logic to suggest that the eternal fate of a soul would hinge on what academic knowledge one accumulates in a physical brain. Physical brain knowledge consists of a series of synaptic nerves storing information in an electro-chemical format. The rigidity of doctrine really just doesn't work very compatibly with one's spiritual existence. For example, when praying to Jesus, is it important to pronounce his name correctly? This is important because in Spanish, the name "Jesus" is pronounced "Hey-soos", because J's are pronounced like H's, "e" like long "a", and "u" like the long u. So are Spanish speakers who ask "Hey-soos" into their lives not saved because "Jesus" is not "Hey-soos"?. Of course, does anyone today have any clue how Jesus's name was originally pronounced. If we pray to Jesus, but have not only the wrong pronunciation, but the wrong facial image in mind, are we still saved? I hope you get my point: How do we know we are spiritually praying to the correct entity? Assuming the answer is something in the order of: God knows who we mean and reaches back to us and all's well, then doesn't it necessarily mean: We do not need to have perfect understanding of God to be saved? And if we don't need a perfect understanding of God, doesn't that means it's okay to be wrong about things? And why would God really even care about what factual knowledge we have? Wouldn't he care a lot more about how we loved others? Some of my thoughts, if you don't mind them. I don't see any spiritual value in dogmatic head knowledge, because I don't see how it's possible for God to care either. Under the Newton model, things just make a LOT more sense. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-15   2:43:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: Pinguinite (#54) Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account* for you, most excellent* Theophilus,* so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.* And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   3:27:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Pinguinite, Soso, Redleghunter (#54) [23] Yet a time is coming and has now come* when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit* and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [24] God is spirit,* and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” NOT SPIRIT AND OPINION. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   3:37:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: SOSO (#27) As I stated and provided information in my previous post...God provided His Gospel in all languages by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Take that argument up with Rev. Bob, it's his thread that says you are wrong. You know SOS, if you would read before you comment you would not be thought of as a complete arse. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: GarySpFC (#28) Gary, go back and read what I posted, not what others say, think for yourself for once. You are becoming a bore. How other than by studying it in the Hebrew can you possibly know what Mal 3:9 really reads? Perhaps if you would spend more time in God's word and less in other peoples commentary you would be of interest. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Don (#29) We have to rely on translations to have the Holy Scriptures available to us. Why? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:47:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Pinguinite (#54) Now, here is what I posted: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. If you have some special insight, so be it, but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: BobCeleste (#59) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   8:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: buckeroo, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#37) Which one carries the authoritative, "word of God?" God speaks directly in the Holy Scriptures and God spoke through prophets and apostles. You will find God's Divine attributes and power in the lines of Scriptures. But you have to pick it up and read it or listen to it. For, "The words of the Lord are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times." (Psalm 12:6) And, Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:5-6) So the answer to your question is, in just about any version you will find the Divine attributes and actions of God. I first read the Bible in one of those paraphrase version Bibles which would give brother Gary and Bob fits:) However, as I matured in my walk with Christ I wanted to learn more and the literal word for word translations became important to examine. They are the closest in the English language to the original texts. Further in answering your questions are the words of Christ when He said: "For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” (John 18:37) "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:22:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, liberator (#46) Exactly. That is why He offers everyone Faith. But you understand this. "Different gifts are given to each Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. " As I noted one of the gifts is that of teachers. The teachers of the NT era wrote in Koine Greek as that was the 'lingua franca' of the period. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:34:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Don (#61) (Edited) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Sure find the time to watch television and play on the computer. Priorities. Don't you ever get curious? Especially when yu find a word in italics. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   9:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Don, GarySpFc (#61) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Well many don't have the gift of languages. It is a gift and God shows us in the NT that only some had the gift. As only some had the gift of teaching, or being an elder, or being a loving and humble servant. There's a long list of gifts and not everyone is an 'eye' or an 'arm' or a leg. But we know the Head is Christ, Praise be to God! "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:51:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Don, BobCeleste, GarySpFc, liberator, TooConservative (#61) Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Yep and the above is probably the most important point in this thread. How many centuries did sola ecclesia keep the written Scriptures from the lay person because they were not in the local or common language? Long time. One had to become a monk, priest or bishop to actually examine the scriptures. Let's not go back to that... "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   10:02:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Don (#51) I'm waiting to see what you and Bucky have for your favorites, or do either of you have any? Why? Don't you have your opinion firmed up yet? But since you appear to be weak kneed of sorts I will accomodate you. I have only been schooled on one version and that is sufficient for me. The other versions appear to be interesting but almost irrelevant to my faith. Question for you though (which you probably won't answer): had I been schooled on a different version of the Scriptures would my belief in and understanding of God and what He expects from me be different? For example, suppose I didn't believe in transubstanitation to name just one difference in the teachings of the various Christian religious sects? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   11:12:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, liberator (#63) As I noted one of the gifts is that of teachers. The teachers of the NT era wrote in Koine Greek as that was the 'lingua franca' of the period. Which ones spoke and wrote in English? German? French? Italian? Russian? Chinese? Japanese? Oh....wait...none of those languages existed at the time of the teachers to whom you refer. But if they did for example speak English, would that have been Olde English or American English? And which particualr dialect? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   11:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: SOSO (#67) No, I understand fully how people who have been "schooled" in their formative years on one version of the Bible. There are cults like the RCC Church who brainwash their captive peons whose only function is to support the leaders of the cult. The history of such cults is replete with acts of violence to keep the "faithful" captive. There is no salvation outside the church. if you don't blindly follow the dictates of the church, they will give you the boot and consign you to Hell.There are cults that tell you you must do good works or you are not saved, etc. etc. etc. Am I not answering your questions? Take a deep breath and relax. Your only purpose is to mock and show your "superiority." I'm not falling for your nonsense. I have said how Christians know the difference between true and false translations. I have already said another poster has answered that question. I fully agree with that poster's comments. Be happy with that response. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   11:49:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: SOSO (#68) You need to start posting something that shows logic and desire to know rather than posting argumentative and illogical thinking. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   11:51:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: Don (#69) No, I understand fully how people who have been "schooled" in their formative years on one version of the Bible. There are cults like the RCC Church who brainwash their captive peons whose only function is to support the leaders of the cult. FYI, as I previously stated I had 4 years of Theology as part of my undergraduate degree. Don't let your flamming prejudices and hatreds always dictate what comes out of your mouth. "Am I not answering your questions?" No, you are not, Weasel. " Your only purpose is to mock and show your "superiority." Spoken like the true intellectual coward and bankrupt that you are. Adios, Spunky. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   13:17:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: Don (#70) You need to start posting something that shows logic and desire to know rather than posting argumentative and illogical thinking. I am tired of casting pearls before swine such as you. You are truly deaf, dumb and blind in your little cocoon that you call you reality. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   13:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: SOSO, Don, BobCeleste, Vicomte13, Pericles, redleghunter, A Pole (#67) Question for you though (which you probably won't answer): had I been schooled on a different version of the Scriptures would my belief in and understanding of God and what He expects from me be different? For example, suppose I didn't believe in transubstanitation to name just one difference in the teachings of the various Christian religious sects? People rarely have any problems with Christianity over the various flavors of doctrine. What people usually do is use that as an excuse to ignore or flout entirely the moral code of scripture. Then they blame scripture for refusing to obey the fundamental and universal tenets found in all scripture. On the essentials, no credible version of scripture fails to outline fundamental Christian morals and duties. It isn't the fault of any church or bible version if people decide to use that as an excuse for ignoring or disobeying every fundamental tenet of scripture found repeatedly in every version. I flagged a few others because this is actually a rather common argument that we have repeatedly in various flavors. If you disagree, name the versions of scripture that allow theft, murder or other moral offenses. Naturally, they are all in agreement on fundamental moral issues. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-15   14:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: TooConservative, Don, BobCeleste, Vicomte13, Pericles, redleghunter, A Pole (#73) On the essentials, no credible version of scripture fails to outline fundamental Christian morals and duties. This is substantially true. It falls apart at the fringes. "It isn't the fault of any church or bible version if people decide to use that as an excuse for ignoring or disobeying every fundamental tenet of scripture found repeatedly in every version." Much less true as there are self-proclaimed Christian churches that truly bastradize the essence of Christianity. For example, those Christain churches that preach and teach anti-Catholicism (and they know who they are, don't they Don?) In just about all cases of the outliers it is their insistence that theirs is the one and only true version and interpretation of God's Words that puts them on the fringe. Unfortunately they are stronger in number than one would think is justified. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   14:48:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: redleghunter (#66) How many centuries did sola ecclesia keep the written Scriptures from the lay person because they were not in the local or common language? Long time. Printing press was not invented yet. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-15   15:16:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: SOSO, TooConservative, Don, BobCeleste, Vicomte13, Pericles, redleghunter, A Pole (#74) In the length of time it has taken to discuss this thread, without anyone actually discussing Mal 3:9 and the missing word, anyone could have done a little work online and found the Hebrew and again online found the definitions. Not many years ago I got a call from a man I went to boot camp with back in June of 62. He runs a huge porn site, he told me "No one cares about what God said, people care about @(%)". Seems he may be right. All this discussion about what I said and not one comment or any discussion on Mal 3:9. How sad. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   15:25:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: BobCeleste (#76) All this discussion about what I said and not one comment or any discussion on Mal 3:9. You probably thought I was being facetious when I said that the only time you hear about Malachi is when the preacher or church board is after donations, especially tithes. I was entirely serious. No one ever seems to mention Malachi otherwise, particularly preach an entire sermon on it. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-15   15:43:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: SOSO (#68) Which ones spoke and wrote in English? German? French? Italian? Russian? Chinese? Japanese? Oh....wait...none of those languages existed at the time of the teachers to whom you refer. But if they did for example speak English, would that have been Olde English or American English? And which particualr dialect? "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   15:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: SOSO (#68) Which ones spoke and wrote in English? German? French? Italian? Russian? Chinese? Japanese? Oh....wait...none of those languages existed at the time of the teachers to whom you refer. But if they did for example speak English, would that have been Olde English or American English? And which particualr dialect? Languages may change or develop, however the manuscripts remain the same. We say slacks or pants, but older English said britches. They are still bipedal material that covers the legs. Thus God covered Adam and Eve. Did he have pants? Does it matter? It matters that God communicated they were covered. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   15:51:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: TooConservative (#73) If you disagree, name the versions of scripture that allow theft, murder or other moral offenses. Naturally, they are all in agreement on fundamental moral issues. Well I agree. And will add that when it comes to the message of the Gospel the same applies. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   16:03:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: A Pole (#75) Yes that is true. However even scrolls and codex "books" at assemblies although available in most Christian traditions were not in the tongue of the people. Not as much in the East as was seen in the West. The West chose the language of the intelligentsia, Latin thus creating two distinct classes of church members. This was not so in the NT. Pentecost shows that the Gospel is for all nations and tongues. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   16:07:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: SOSO, Don, TooConservative (#74) Much less true as there are self-proclaimed Christian churches that truly bastradize the essence of Christianity. For example, those Christain churches that preach and teach anti-Catholicism (and they know who they are, don't they Don?) You speak of doctrinal differences. Doctrines of transubstantion came much later than the NT church. I believe it was not until the 2nd Lateran council in which that doctrine was confirmed. And with much controversy. The East did not embrace this doctrine until almost 200 years later and they are not dogmatic about it. It is when a certain church pronounces anathemas on those who do not agree with them where issues come up. That is what Trent did. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   16:16:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: BobCeleste (#76) All this discussion about what I said and not one comment or any discussion on Mal 3:9. What does Malachi 3:9 have to do with the curse of sin and death destroyed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   16:21:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: redleghunter (#81) The West chose the language of the intelligentsia, Latin thus creating two distinct classes of church members. This was not so in the NT. Oh yes, it was. The services in Jesus time were in Hebrew, OT Bible was in Greek, lower class people used Aramaic, middle and upper class spoke Greek, Hebrew was studied by the priests and scribes. The reason was that higher learning was for the few - it required time, resources and talent. Making translation for the illiterate or semi-literate vulgar folk (later "Vulgate") did not make much sense, especially that making books was very expensive. In the church the Holy Books were read aloud (or repeated from memory) during the service followed by an explanation. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-15   16:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: BobCeleste (#60) Bob, the Hebrew word that is traditionally translated as "cursed" in English and other languages doesn't actually mean "cursed" in the sense of some pronounced incantation at all. It is much more graphic than that. The literal translation of the word whose Hebrew consonants are ARWR (aror or arar), is "spat upon". "Cursed" in English implies the speaking of imprecatory words, but the Hebrew "aror" means spat upon, as in hawking a loogie. For example, from Genesis, the LITERAL Hebrew of Genesis 3:14 (when God "curses" the serpent), is: "and he-will-exist [YHWH] of powers [Elohiym] will say to the serpent, given that you did this, spat upon are you from all the beasts and from all the life the field, upon the belly you will walk and powder you will eat all the days your life". So, Malachi (which, by the way, means "messenger", which is to say "angel") never says "You are cursed with a curse". What it says, literally, is "You are spat upon with spit...". Which carries precisely the degree of degradation and loathing that anybody in any culture has when contemplating that image. Hhhhhhhhhhh - PTOOOEY - right on ye, ye vile worms. Pretty graphic language, this "ARWR". Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   16:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: Gatlin (#48) Your comment is not conductive to civil discussion. Thank you. Then strike the comment and I will try in the future to word my comments in a way that will be more palatable to you during my composting. LOL Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   16:54:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: TooConservative (#77) You probably thought I was being facetious when I said that the only time you hear about Malachi is when the preacher or church board is after donations, especially tithes. I was entirely serious. No one ever seems to mention Malachi otherwise, particularly preach an entire sermon on it. Visit ChristianPatriot.com put Malachi in the search engine. Not all, but some are up and available to the general public. Most are restricted to preachers and Bible students. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   16:58:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: redleghunter (#83) What does Malachi 3:9 have to do with the curse of sin and death destroyed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? that's not what the thread is all about, it is about why one should study the ancient languages. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   16:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: Vicomte13 (#85) he literal translation of the word whose Hebrew consonants are ARWR (aror or arar), is "spat upon". So, Malachi (which, by the way, means "messenger", which is to say "angel") never says "You are cursed with a curse". What it says, literally, is "You are spat upon with spit...". Mal 3:9a Ye are cursed ('arar) with a curse (m@erah) From the original post: the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar Strong's 779 is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah Strongs 3994 is an execration:--curse. I'm curious as to where you are getting your definitions. The other problem I have with your explanation is that there are two words, not one, translated as curse, not one. Mal 3:9a Ye are cursed ('arar) with a curse (m@erah) BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   17:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: SOSO (#23) who other than myself shall I trust to read and understand the Bible in its original languages. I'm a pretty good source, actually, because I don't have a traditional religious agenda. I don't like any of the traditions, because of all of the evil that their men have done. I don't trust their translations, because I have had a peak at the tendentiousness of it. I don't accept the Protestant tradition that the Bible is IT, and I don't accept the Catholic tradition that the Church is IT. I think that God is IT, and I want to know what the Church has said about what God wants. I also want to see how the Church has contradicted itself in these pronouncements. It concerns me less when I find the men of the Church contradicting what God said. Judas was an Apostle, after all, and Peter ran away and denied Christ. But the allegedly infallible doctrines themselves, where they evolve and change or conflict with each other: that's important. I want to see, also, what the Bible says, and I want to see how people change the canon between different denominations, and whether it makes a difference (it does as between Catholic and Protestant, and between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, but it doesn't between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox). I want literal translations that are mechanical and concordant, so I can see the Hebrew and Greek verb tenses - they matter a great deal. I want the same word used consistently in the text to translate its homologue, because that's what time left us: THAT word. When different English is used to translate the same word, the judgment of the translator is intruding. I want my translator to make ONE judgment about the meaning of a word - to TELL me that judgment and the alternatives - and then I want my translator BOUND to use that exact word, every single time the Hebrew or Greek word appears. Such translations do exist, though they are rare. With concordant translation and proper verb tenses, I want to see if the Bible conflicts with itself. It does. And I want to see if there is any way WITHIN the text to discern how to assign greater and lesser authority to conflicting pieces. There is. Jesus actually gave the rule, and it makes perfect logical sense too, when you think about it: "Man does not live by bread alone, but but every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of deity." Well, that narrows it down, doesn't it? Scripture is inspired by God, but the parts that God actually spoke directly, which are always indicated in the text, are the words to live by, in the event of a conflict. That makes sense. It also clears a lot of freight. So, what I end up with is a corpus of words, perhaps only about 7 or 8% of the text, a third of that when duplicates are removed, that are the binding words of God. Those are the highest authority in Scripture. I can look at the "disputed books" to see if there are words of God in THOSE. There are, in some of them, so I need to see if there is any difference in message if a disputed book is included or excluded. (The answer is: not really.) Then I can compare the words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, according to Scripture, to each of the traditions of each denomination, to see where they vary. And then I can come to my own judgment as to what to think. Me? I come down on the side of words spoken directly by God, as interpreted by my own conscience. Because I'm interested in the truth, not in defending any tradition at all, I tend to be a very good, impartial source for understanding the Bible. You can trust me because I'm just trying to show what it actually says, for my OWN benefit - and I'm willing to share my findings with others. That makes me an exceptional source of information - precisely because I am unimpressed with ALL of the denominational claims. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   17:13:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: BobCeleste (#89) m'erah is a derivative of ARWR. There's one word here, and a derivate. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   17:14:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: Vicomte13 (#91) (Edited) m'erah is a derivative of ARWR. There's one word here, and a derivate. Yes, m'erah is a derivative of ARWR, but they are not one word. I remain curious as to what dictionary you are using? Where are you getting your definitions from? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   17:29:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: TooConservative (#77) (Edited) No one ever seems to mention Malachi otherwise, particularly preach an entire sermon on it. Except me. I am particularly fond of Malachi, for two reasons. First, it wasn't proclaimed by a man. "Melek" is a messenger - an angel. This is God's angel speaking to the Jews, not some guy hiding his identity. Probably. That's important, because it makes the whole book highly authoritative - not just words "inspired by God", but words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God (via an angel). The second reason I like it is because it is HERE, from God's own mouth via his angel, that God proclaims the same doctrine against divorce that Jesus later preaches. The angel (melek) tells the Jews: "God hates divorce." Jesus later tells us all that divorce was a law that Moses wrote, but that it wasn't God's intent from the beginning. And Jesus says that remarriage after divorce is adultery. A fundamental difference between the Catholic Church and all other Christian denominations is that the other denominations all allow for divorce and remarriage, because of the hardness of hearts. But the Catholic Church forbids it absolutely. And THAT is, in fact, the law that came out of Jesus' mouth, corroborated by the words from God through the Angel. It is important that God's HATRED for divorce - HATRED - is expressed in the OLD Testament. So, Jesus is NOT changing the law to take away something that God gave through Moses. As Jesus said, Moses wrote the tradition, and divorce was a TRADITION. But God HATES it, and hated it under the law of Moses too. That's very, very important. For we are told by modern Christians of a political bent that God hates sodomy - that it is an abomination. That's true, on the text. But DIVORCE is ALSO hated by God - HATED. Jesus said that remarriage after divorce is ADULTERY. And in the short list given by Jesus twice on the last page of Scripture of what will get a man thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment, THEFT never appears - thieves don't necessarily go to Hell - but the sexually immoral and adulterers both do. I have noted that the Christians of our day like to harp on faggotry, which is legitimate. They harp somewhat less on fornication, perhaps because they don't want to alienate the "low church". But on divorce - something God hates - and remarriage - which Jesus calls adultery, and promises adulterers are hurled into the fire...well, there the Christians find compassion. Why? Because most people are heterosexual and married, and marriage is frequently a bitch, and having an escape hatch has been a desire of man since Moses. But God HATES divorce. HATES it. And tells men not to do it. In both testaments - an angel tells the Jews, and Jesus tells the world. I myself, personally, agree with Jesus. I think that divorce is an utter calamity for children, in particular. And I think that the temporal happiness of parents should be sacrificed for the happiness of children, and unhappy people should stay married, AND control their emotions and not commit other sins by lashing out - in short, they should fall back in love with the love of their youth, and that God gives them no out. There is no out: you must stay married. Marriage means that you will never have sex with anybody else against for the rest of one of your lives - the first to die - and it's indissoluble. And IF you dissolve it anyway: God HATES that. And if you remarry, you are an adulterer and you will be thrown into the flames of Hell and not enter the City of God. Jesus said that TWICE on the last page of the Scripture - TWICE. Adulterers are thrown into the fire. Divorce and remarriage is adultery. God hates divorce, and God throws adulterers into Hell. And all of those words came out of the mouth of God, straight and clear, and are not open to interpretation. And any Christian who says otherwise is deleting Scripture to pave the way to sin. He is lying and liars are ALSO on the short stern list of people who will be thrown into Hell at judgment. There is no escape: God hates divorce. Remarriage after divorce is adultery. Adulterers are thrown into Hell. And to say otherwise is to lie about God's word and liars are also all thrown into Hell. Therefore, Christians must take the position that divorce is prohibited, and remarriage after divorce is always barred. To do otherwise, and to preach anything else, is to lie and to lead men and women, and one's self, to hell. Thus speaks Malachi and Jesus. This is the law of God. It can never be changed. And whoever disagrees with it should shut up and change his mind, on pain of death, damnation and Hell. God has spoken finally, and repeatedly. Whoever thinks otherwise defies God. It is not an open question. The doctrine of divorce and remarriage is Satanic. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   18:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (94 - 248) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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