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Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 73090 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-32) not displayed.       .       .       . #33. To: SOSO (#20) Not to everyone, only to the 12 who then had to spread the News. Not accurate. Where do you see only the 12 receiving the gift of speaking in other languages? God is sovereign in salvation. His Gospel message is for all peoples. I showed you the scriptures addressing these matters. "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”---Jesus Christ "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   22:46:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: Don (#31) To [sic] many people it really doesn't matter. To me the question matters as I posed the question to you. those people who are Christians know the difference in the false and the real. Christ said that His sheep know His voice. It must be an awesome event to be able to evade the question about which Bible is the correct version as you receive some sort of mystical guidance from sources high above the clouds, correct? buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-14   23:07:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#27) Take that argument up with Rev. Bob, it's his thread that says you are wrong. No, Bob is pointing out we should be proficient in deriving our doctrines from the original languages. My point was that God never expected all believers to comprehend Greek and Hebrew. Most who claim that they can are either theologians who spent years mastering the language or people reading a lexicon put together by theologians and claiming they know the original languages. As evidenced in the NT, followers of Christ ranged from the simple fishermen and shepherd to the educated tax collector as in Matthew and accomplished Pharisee theologian as in Paul. Different gifts are given to each Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul discusses this in length in his epistles and we see it in action in Acts. Different members of the same Body of Christ. Some are gifted as teachers, some are servants of the church, some are overseers (bishops or elders), some are gifted to reprove, rebuke, encourage, some gifted in languages, some to heal, some are gifted evangelists, some with the gift of love which is the greatest of all. Many more. All are parts of the same body. Some are legs and arms, some eyes and ears, all serve God's purpose and will. All of the above came to know Christ by hearing the Word of the Gospel in their own language as God promised. Thus it was written, thus it is so Jasper. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   23:08:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: buckeroo, Don, GarySpFc, SOSO (#34) There are over 5,000 existing Greek NT manuscripts. ALL Bibles out there today are translated from those manuscripts. Some better than others. The KJV, NKJV, NASB, and YLT (some others) are literal word for word translations from the NT Greek manuscripts. Some versions are passage by passage literal equivalent translations. Some are paraphrased versions. If someone is looking for accuracy in translating from one language to the other, then the literal word for word translations are best. If someone is just starting to read the Bible for understanding then the literal equivalent is good. Yet none of the above matters unless you will blow the dust off the Bible and actually read it and study it and pray. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   23:20:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: redleghunter (#36) There are over 5,000 existing Greek NT manuscripts. ALL Bibles out there today are translated from those manuscripts. Some better than others. Good reply. Which one carries the authoritative, "word of God?" buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-14   23:25:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: buckeroo (#34) I believe that someone has answered your question. Do you need my blessing on the translations? Don  posted on  2015-05-14   23:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: Don (#38) Feel free to jump in and provide your interpretation of the correct version. Whaddaya think of that Vulgate? Man, that version is one awesome work, isn't it? buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-14   23:31:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: buckeroo (#37) Bucky, I don't believe your question indicates you really want an answer. You simply want to argue against the Holy Bible. Why should anyone spend time feeding your hostility toward the Scriptures? Don  posted on  2015-05-14   23:31:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: Don (#40) You simply want to argue against the Holy Bible. Which one? buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-14   23:33:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: buckeroo (#41) Let's go beyond the Scriptures. I think you are hostile toward God which is behind your comments. Don  posted on  2015-05-14   23:35:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: Don (#42) If the Holy Bible is the authoritative Word of God, we can't go beyond it. So, why are you baiting me? buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-14   23:43:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Gatlin (#4) that people really don't give a damn about what you care for either Your comment is not conductive to civil discussion. Moderator X  posted on  2015-05-14   23:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: Moderator X (#44) Did you mean conducive? Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-05-14   23:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#35) My point was that God never expected all believers to comprehend Greek and Hebrew. Exactly. That is why He offers everyone Faith. But you understand this. "Different gifts are given to each Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. " потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   0:03:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: Don, buckeroo (#38) I believe that someone has answered your question. Do you need my blessing on the translations? Hardly. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   0:04:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: Moderator X (#44) that people really don't give a damn about what you care for either Your comment is not conductive to civil discussion. Thank you. Then strike the comment and I will try in the future to word my comments in a way that will be more palatable to you during my composting. Gatlin  posted on  2015-05-15   0:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: buckeroo (#43) (Edited) Bucky, that is exactly what I thought about you. However, are you saying we cannot go past the Scriptures to God? Is the Bible God? Careful, the word, Heresy still has meaning. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   0:08:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: buckeroo, Don (#41) You simply want to argue against the Holy Bible. Which one? I would like a straight forward answer to his question. Do you have one? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   0:09:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: SOSO (#50) I have my preferences. I'm waiting to see what you and Bucky have for your favorites, or do either of you have any? Don  posted on  2015-05-15   0:14:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: buckeroo (#34) (Edited) It must be an awesome event to be able to evade the question about which Bible is the correct version as you receive some sort of mystical guidance from sources high above the clouds, correct? i am convinced one can find Christ in any of the New Testament Bibles IF one is sincerely searching. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   0:27:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: buckeroo (#43) Hear, O Israel, and be careful to obey* so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly* in a land flowing with milk and honey,* just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised* you. You're a Jew but don't listen? And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   0:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: BobCeleste (#13) That is why you must study on your own. It really does defy logic to suggest that the eternal fate of a soul would hinge on what academic knowledge one accumulates in a physical brain. Physical brain knowledge consists of a series of synaptic nerves storing information in an electro-chemical format. The rigidity of doctrine really just doesn't work very compatibly with one's spiritual existence. For example, when praying to Jesus, is it important to pronounce his name correctly? This is important because in Spanish, the name "Jesus" is pronounced "Hey-soos", because J's are pronounced like H's, "e" like long "a", and "u" like the long u. So are Spanish speakers who ask "Hey-soos" into their lives not saved because "Jesus" is not "Hey-soos"?. Of course, does anyone today have any clue how Jesus's name was originally pronounced. If we pray to Jesus, but have not only the wrong pronunciation, but the wrong facial image in mind, are we still saved? I hope you get my point: How do we know we are spiritually praying to the correct entity? Assuming the answer is something in the order of: God knows who we mean and reaches back to us and all's well, then doesn't it necessarily mean: We do not need to have perfect understanding of God to be saved? And if we don't need a perfect understanding of God, doesn't that means it's okay to be wrong about things? And why would God really even care about what factual knowledge we have? Wouldn't he care a lot more about how we loved others? Some of my thoughts, if you don't mind them. I don't see any spiritual value in dogmatic head knowledge, because I don't see how it's possible for God to care either. Under the Newton model, things just make a LOT more sense. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-15   2:43:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: Pinguinite (#54) Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account* for you, most excellent* Theophilus,* so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.* And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   3:27:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Pinguinite, Soso, Redleghunter (#54) [23] Yet a time is coming and has now come* when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit* and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [24] God is spirit,* and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” NOT SPIRIT AND OPINION. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   3:37:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: SOSO (#27) As I stated and provided information in my previous post...God provided His Gospel in all languages by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Take that argument up with Rev. Bob, it's his thread that says you are wrong. You know SOS, if you would read before you comment you would not be thought of as a complete arse. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: GarySpFC (#28) Gary, go back and read what I posted, not what others say, think for yourself for once. You are becoming a bore. How other than by studying it in the Hebrew can you possibly know what Mal 3:9 really reads? Perhaps if you would spend more time in God's word and less in other peoples commentary you would be of interest. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Don (#29) We have to rely on translations to have the Holy Scriptures available to us. Why? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:47:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Pinguinite (#54) Now, here is what I posted: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. If you have some special insight, so be it, but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: BobCeleste (#59) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   8:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: buckeroo, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#37) Which one carries the authoritative, "word of God?" God speaks directly in the Holy Scriptures and God spoke through prophets and apostles. You will find God's Divine attributes and power in the lines of Scriptures. But you have to pick it up and read it or listen to it. For, "The words of the Lord are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times." (Psalm 12:6) And, Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:5-6) So the answer to your question is, in just about any version you will find the Divine attributes and actions of God. I first read the Bible in one of those paraphrase version Bibles which would give brother Gary and Bob fits:) However, as I matured in my walk with Christ I wanted to learn more and the literal word for word translations became important to examine. They are the closest in the English language to the original texts. Further in answering your questions are the words of Christ when He said: "For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” (John 18:37) "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:22:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, liberator (#46) Exactly. That is why He offers everyone Faith. But you understand this. "Different gifts are given to each Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. " As I noted one of the gifts is that of teachers. The teachers of the NT era wrote in Koine Greek as that was the 'lingua franca' of the period. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:34:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Don (#61) (Edited) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Sure find the time to watch television and play on the computer. Priorities. Don't you ever get curious? Especially when yu find a word in italics. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   9:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Don, GarySpFc (#61) Many don't have the time, resources, or ability to learn Ancient Greek or Hebrew. Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Well many don't have the gift of languages. It is a gift and God shows us in the NT that only some had the gift. As only some had the gift of teaching, or being an elder, or being a loving and humble servant. There's a long list of gifts and not everyone is an 'eye' or an 'arm' or a leg. But we know the Head is Christ, Praise be to God! "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:51:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Don, BobCeleste, GarySpFc, liberator, TooConservative (#61) Many in the Middle Ages had the same problem with Latin. Yep and the above is probably the most important point in this thread. How many centuries did sola ecclesia keep the written Scriptures from the lay person because they were not in the local or common language? Long time. One had to become a monk, priest or bishop to actually examine the scriptures. Let's not go back to that... "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   10:02:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Don (#51) I'm waiting to see what you and Bucky have for your favorites, or do either of you have any? Why? Don't you have your opinion firmed up yet? But since you appear to be weak kneed of sorts I will accomodate you. I have only been schooled on one version and that is sufficient for me. The other versions appear to be interesting but almost irrelevant to my faith. Question for you though (which you probably won't answer): had I been schooled on a different version of the Scriptures would my belief in and understanding of God and what He expects from me be different? For example, suppose I didn't believe in transubstanitation to name just one difference in the teachings of the various Christian religious sects? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   11:12:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, liberator (#63) As I noted one of the gifts is that of teachers. The teachers of the NT era wrote in Koine Greek as that was the 'lingua franca' of the period. Which ones spoke and wrote in English? German? French? Italian? Russian? Chinese? Japanese? Oh....wait...none of those languages existed at the time of the teachers to whom you refer. But if they did for example speak English, would that have been Olde English or American English? And which particualr dialect? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   11:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: SOSO (#67) No, I understand fully how people who have been "schooled" in their formative years on one version of the Bible. There are cults like the RCC Church who brainwash their captive peons whose only function is to support the leaders of the cult. The history of such cults is replete with acts of violence to keep the "faithful" captive. There is no salvation outside the church. if you don't blindly follow the dictates of the church, they will give you the boot and consign you to Hell.There are cults that tell you you must do good works or you are not saved, etc. etc. etc. Am I not answering your questions? Take a deep breath and relax. Your only purpose is to mock and show your "superiority." I'm not falling for your nonsense. I have said how Christians know the difference between true and false translations. I have already said another poster has answered that question. I fully agree with that poster's comments. Be happy with that response. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   11:49:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: SOSO (#68) You need to start posting something that shows logic and desire to know rather than posting argumentative and illogical thinking. Don  posted on  2015-05-15   11:51:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: Don (#69) No, I understand fully how people who have been "schooled" in their formative years on one version of the Bible. There are cults like the RCC Church who brainwash their captive peons whose only function is to support the leaders of the cult. FYI, as I previously stated I had 4 years of Theology as part of my undergraduate degree. Don't let your flamming prejudices and hatreds always dictate what comes out of your mouth. "Am I not answering your questions?" No, you are not, Weasel. " Your only purpose is to mock and show your "superiority." Spoken like the true intellectual coward and bankrupt that you are. Adios, Spunky. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   13:17:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: Don (#70) You need to start posting something that shows logic and desire to know rather than posting argumentative and illogical thinking. I am tired of casting pearls before swine such as you. You are truly deaf, dumb and blind in your little cocoon that you call you reality. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-15   13:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (73 - 248) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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