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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 69442 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 215. #9. To: BobCeleste (#0) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. Just a general observation. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-14   11:25:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: TooConservative (#9) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. That is why you must study on your own. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-14   14:48:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: BobCeleste (#13) That is why you must study on your own. It really does defy logic to suggest that the eternal fate of a soul would hinge on what academic knowledge one accumulates in a physical brain. Physical brain knowledge consists of a series of synaptic nerves storing information in an electro-chemical format. The rigidity of doctrine really just doesn't work very compatibly with one's spiritual existence. For example, when praying to Jesus, is it important to pronounce his name correctly? This is important because in Spanish, the name "Jesus" is pronounced "Hey-soos", because J's are pronounced like H's, "e" like long "a", and "u" like the long u. So are Spanish speakers who ask "Hey-soos" into their lives not saved because "Jesus" is not "Hey-soos"?. Of course, does anyone today have any clue how Jesus's name was originally pronounced. If we pray to Jesus, but have not only the wrong pronunciation, but the wrong facial image in mind, are we still saved? I hope you get my point: How do we know we are spiritually praying to the correct entity? Assuming the answer is something in the order of: God knows who we mean and reaches back to us and all's well, then doesn't it necessarily mean: We do not need to have perfect understanding of God to be saved? And if we don't need a perfect understanding of God, doesn't that means it's okay to be wrong about things? And why would God really even care about what factual knowledge we have? Wouldn't he care a lot more about how we loved others? Some of my thoughts, if you don't mind them. I don't see any spiritual value in dogmatic head knowledge, because I don't see how it's possible for God to care either. Under the Newton model, things just make a LOT more sense. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-15   2:43:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Pinguinite (#54) Now, here is what I posted: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. If you have some special insight, so be it, but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:50:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #126. To: BobCeleste (#60) but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. Seems to me, that the Bible is exactly that.... A series of writings by people claiming God said certain things. You certainly are one of great faith, but it appears your faith isn't so much in God, but in the Bible itself. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-17   2:29:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #127. To: Pinguinite (#126) You certainly are one of great faith, but it appears your faith isn't so much in God, but in the Bible itself. The bible, my friend, is the word of God. It is the book, letter, He gave to us to get to know, understand and be better able to obey Him. I am convinced that in the Bible, we find exactly what God said, exactly how He said it and that He means every word in it. I am also convinced that if we, after much study, still do not understand all of what He has caused to be written, it does not mean that God doesn't know how to speak or how to write, it means that we (I) are not as smart as God. As His slave I am commanded to obey, not second guess, I am commanded to study what He said, not look to others to tell me what He meant to say. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   7:15:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #132. To: BobCeleste (#127) The bible, my friend, is the word of God. It is the book, letter, He gave to us to get to know, understand and be better able to obey Him. Personally, I see little supporting evidence for this claim. A theology where people are condemned for eternity for decisions they make in a single life is simply not necessary, and falls short of what makes God truely loving and majestic. Characteristics ascribed to God like anger and jealousy are more likely the result of projecting of human traits on God rather than being an accurate description of an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God. The Newton model gives us that. We have an infinitely patient God with zero condemnation and zero anger, complete free will and complete accountability. We have a very real and simple reason to understand our spiritual uniqueness above that of animals (our humanity is not our primary identity, contrary to what most major faiths including christianity simply assume). It's almost universally true that no parent would condemn a child for what doctrine they hold to, and yet we're to believe God would condemn the vast majority of his children over what theology they believe? Where is the logic in this? If God is all powerful and all wise, then why wouldn't he have created a different model from the beginning? Well, I believe he did. In comparing theological elements, the Newton model is objectively superior to the Christian model, and the theological models of every major religion. Not that such results are necessarily indicative of truth, but insofar as we are talking about an omnipotent, infinitely wise, and all loving God, it should most certainly be a consideration. The Bible is, in my view, a collection of ancient writings, selected for their consistency in projecting a certain belief system. Yes many people over time have held the Bible to be spiritually special, but the same is also true for the Koran. Much of what is written is good, but the assumption that it is "The Word of God" is just that -- an assumption -- allowing a faith holder an easy and convenient device to consider a source of truth. Still, just because we need and want such a thing does not mean the Bible is it. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-17   12:24:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #142. To: Pinguinite (#132) Your view and my belief are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But look at it this way, If I'm wrong, what have I lost? But, if I'm right what have you lost? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   18:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #143. To: BobCeleste, Pinguinite (#142) Your view and my belief are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But look at it this way, If I'm wrong, what have I lost? Your whole lifetime barking up the wrong tree. You would have a whole lifetime of lost opportunities that would have connected you closer to the truth about your existence and relationships to other people. You would have spent your whole lifetime actively leading others done your path to nowhere instead of enriching their life. Need I go on? "But, if I'm right what have you lost?." Likely nothing. Just like you perhaps he will go to Heaven, perhaps not. God will make that call for all of us. Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? SOSO  posted on  2015-05-17   19:34:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #144. To: SOSO (#143) Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have absolutely no doubts about that, none. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   21:04:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #148. To: BobCeleste (#144) Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have absolutely no doubts about that, none. That is an interesting claim, that you already know God's judgment of you. Hell, you can phone in the rest of life here on earth. SOSO  posted on  2015-05-17   23:51:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #159. To: SOSO (#148) Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have absolutely no doubts about that, none. That is an interesting claim, that you already know God's judgment of you. Hell, you can phone in the rest of life here on earth. It is not a difficult claim to make, Read John 3:1-21 and you will come away asking just what you have to do to be Born Again. Christ Himself answers that question in Luke 23:39-43. I have both written extensively on this and experienced the pain of crucifixion. If you comply with John 3:3 by doing what the thief on the cross to Jesus right did, then you too will have no doubts of where you will spend eternity. And, if you think or have been told that you have to live a perfect life, then go back and read my post for the last 30 years, you will find there is nothing perfect about me. But believe this, there are only two places you can go after death, Heaven or the lake of fire, there aint no purgatory! You pick that destination while you are still alive, after you die it is to late. Put your salvation in no hands, read the word of God yourself and ignore commentary, read some exhortations if yu are having difficulty, but don't even do that till you have reached out to Christ thru the Spirit for help and understanding. You are going to spend eternity in one of those two places, your salvation is to important to be left up to others. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:42:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #169. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#159) But believe this, there are only two places you can go after death, Heaven or the lake of fire, there aint no purgatory! You pick that destination while you are still alive, after you die it is to late. Agreed, it's either up or down. "Put your salvation in no hands, read the word of God yourself and ignore commentary, read some exhortations if yu are having difficulty, but don't even do that till you have reached out to Christ thru the Spirit for help and understanding." My faith was secured a long time ago and remains unshaken. And yes, we are all sinners. And yes salavtion is a very personal thing. And yes sinners can go to Heaven. But only God knows what is in a man's heart and what deeds a man has or has not done. Only God will judge, even in the case of a death bed conversion of a thief on the cross. I would not presume to claim to know the God of mind. I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word. SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   20:47:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #175. To: SOSO (#169) I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word. What, in Scripture, would have you believe that? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   22:35:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #176. To: BobCeleste (#175) What, in Scripture, would have you believe that? Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Each of us commit mortal sins from time to time. Well....I guess I should say most of us as you apparantly have not and never will. The rest of us have to rely on repentance to remove the stain on our souls and get back into God's grace. This is far as I am going to engage with you on this subject. SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   22:50:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #211. To: SOSO, BobCeleste, A K A Stone, TooConservative, GarySpFc (#176) Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Jesus explained the Law as not just in physical violations but 'mental' and of the heart. Matthew 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. We see here that anger in the heart and mind is addressed with murder. Again in Matthew 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. So Jesus is telling those assembled, and us, God looks at the heart for the intents of men and women, not just what we physically do. Jesus Christ summarizes again in Matthew 15 the following: 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. So the solution is a changed heart. For any sane chemically balanced person can go through life and avoid physically murdering someone. Most men can avoid adultery. None of the above can avoid even the passing thought of anger for another or lust for another in their heart. We are all guilty of such. Again the solution is a changed heart. Which for the Christian, only God through His Grace can change: Romans 10: Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-19   14:38:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #214. To: redleghunter (#211) Yes, your post lists many of the key points. There are a few more, though, that I think are important. In Revelation, at the end of it all, when all has been said and done, Jesus repeats many times that men will be judged by their DEEDS - by what they DID. He gives a short list, twice, of what will get a man the Lake of Fire at Judgment. Theft is not on it. Neither is covetousness. There is some variation of terms and multiplication of concepts that we can reduce to a simple term (Adultery + "porneis" + being a "dog" + "filthy" = sexual immorality, in the terms of the day) Slaying, Lying, Sexual Immorality, Idolatry, Sorcery (in particular, the selling of drugs to induce "magical" altered states) - those will earn you the fire. But what about the rest of sins? And what about THOSE VERY SINS, even. After all, Paul was a slayer of Christians, and St. Photini (the Samaritan woman at the well) was sexually immoral - are they damned to be thrown into the Lake of Fire after the resurrection and judgment, or is there a mechanism for forgiveness? Interestingly, and authoritatively, Jesus speaks of the mechanism for forgiveness by God: forgiveness of other men. He put it into the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our debts in the measure ("as") we forgive those in debt to us". Jesus gives a very long parable of the unforgiving servant in which he speaks of the price of unforgiveness, and the reward for forgiveness: Matthew 18:32-33 "Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Now, when combined with the story of the destination of the rich man who disregarded Lazarus and the promise to the (probably unbaptized) "good thief" of "Paradise" "this day", a texture of the afterlife is revealed - the rich man was in a dry and parched place, where there were flames, but he was not in the Lake of Fire. If I press down one road here, we could end up in quite a struggle. I'm not aiming to do that, however. Rather, I wanted to focus like a laser beam on what Jesus consistently said was the way to be forgiven sins, whatever sins: forgive other men their sins, crimes, bad acts and debts against you. Jesus establishes a principle of forgive-men-to-be-forgiven-by-God that very much fits his overall message. And that is rather different from what many preach. Jesus emphasized deeds, in his teaching and in the Revelation also. And he particularly emphasized forgiveness of others as the key to being forgiven sin. That was Jesus' perspective on it. Paul had a different perspective, one that focused on Jewish concepts of expiatory sacrifice. The two can be reconciled, in the sense that Jewish sacrifices were visible signs of forgiveness and redemption, and Jesus' personal sacrifice was the apotheosis of that model. And that's fine, symbolically, as far as it goes. But it does not, on its own, go far enough even if Paul says that it does. Paul is not God. Jesus is. And Jesus said to men that if they don't actually aid other men and forgive other men, he doesn't know them, and the father won't forgive them - whether they're baptized or not. Moreover, Jesus asks pointedly: What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't do as I say? Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds, and that some deeds: lying and sexual immorality in particular, also idolatry and issues with unbelief, will result in a man being thrown into the Lake of Fire. And he offered only one path to be forgiven: you must forgive others their sin. And he said that calling him Lord, Lord is not enough. He doesn't know you unless you do what he say. So, if you're a baptized Christian who believes in Jesus, but you do not forgive other men their debts and sins, you will not be forgiven your sins either, and will be thrown into Gehenna after you die "until the last penny is paid", and then you may very well also be thrown into the Lake of Fire, too, for the second death. So, if you want to enter the City of God and pass final judgment you must, according to Jesus, be fathered again, of water and the Spirit, follow him, and forgive other men their debts and sins against you. And perhaps if you miss the water, you may be acceptable anyway (see: the "good thief"), but it doesn't do you any good to "believe in Jesus" if you don't forgive other men their debts and sins. For we're all sinners - liars and sexually immoral at least - and that means the fire unless we're forgiven, and the only way that Christ himself said we could be forgiven is by forgiving, and he said that it does a man no good at all - you are not saved - if you believe he is the Son of God but don't actually do what he said. You can break the law, and be forgiven, IF (and ONLY if) you forgive other men. If you're a baptized Christian who is an unforgiving prick, you are not saved and you are certainly going to Hell. Jesus Christ said so. Paul appears to say otherwise. Christ trumps Paul Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-19   15:32:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #215. To: Vicomte13 (#214) There are a few more, though, that I think are important. In Revelation, at the end of it all, when all has been said and done, Jesus repeats many times that men will be judged by their DEEDS - by what they DID. He gives a short list, twice, of what will get a man the Lake of Fire at Judgment. Theft is not on it. Neither is covetousness. There is some variation of terms and multiplication of concepts that we can reduce to a simple term (Adultery + "porneis" + being a "dog" + "filthy" = sexual immorality, in the terms of the day) Slaying, Lying, Sexual Immorality, Idolatry, Sorcery (in particular, the selling of drugs to induce "magical" altered states) - those will earn you the fire. But what about the rest of sins? Which my point was to SOSO that the Greatest Commandment is the test of the heart. If one truly seeks the Heart of Christ by the Greatest Commandment, then the path is not the 'sinners bucket list' from Revelation. Matthew 22:36-40New King James Version (NKJV) 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” The above requires a change of heart. A change only God by His Grace can do. If you're a baptized Christian who is an unforgiving prick, you are not saved and you are certainly going to Hell. Jesus Christ said so. Paul appears to say otherwise. I don't see where Paul says otherwise. Paul preached repentance (Romans 10). That means turing away from our sinful lives. Paul also in 1 Corinthians 13 laid out quite nicely how love defines a Christian. A good tree bears good fruit: Luke 6: 43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-19   15:54:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 215. #216. To: redleghunter (#215) A Christian lies, or gets divorced and remarried, or lusts after a woman or another man for that matter, or kills somebody. What happens to him when he dies? Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-19 16:09:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 215. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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