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Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says.
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ChristianPatriot.com
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Published: May 14, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste
Keywords: ACP
Views: 69500
Comments: 248
This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others.
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#183. To: A K A Stone (#180)
Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Do you believe in that Christians should proselytize each other, e.g. - Methodist proselytizing Catholics, Baptists proselytizing Episcopalians? I don't do that to other Christians and I certainly don't appreciate someone trying to proselytize me. Any questions?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I could probably write up a long essay of how I see things work, but that would likely (and understandably) exceed your interest and therefore would not be a productive use of time. But I'll try summarize. Your question implies that salvation is an element that is required, and that any faith system must account for it, because of the nature of sin being incompatible with God's perfection and so forth. But the need for salvation does not exist under the Newton model. Please hear me out as I explain. Let's look at the big picture. Christian theology is based on the idea that we are primarily human beings, flesh and blood, and the eternal soul is created as a byproduct of human conception. For that reason, once the body dies, the soul is then released to it's ultimate destination and can (understandably) never again be part of a new human life since any new human life would have it's own soul. God created man in his image, hand made from dust, as opposed to the animals which were spoken into existance, which is the reason man is considered the children of God and of special worth above the worth of animals. Jesus took human form in order to be able to understand our hardships firsthand, and therefore intercede on our behalf, dying on the cross once and for all for the atonement of sin. All in all, not an unreasonable theology. But by way of comparison, this is what the Newton model says. We are NOT primarily human. We are primarily souls. Souls are NOT created as a byproduct of human conception. Souls are instead, according to Newton, literally born of God in the spirit world. My next statement is not what Newton says, as he never makes any comparison of his findings to Christianity, but what I infer is, because we are not primarily human, the idea that Jesus would need to take human form for the benefit of atonement of souls breaks down. Souls are NOT human, and have no direct relation to human DNA. Our human nature is only incidental, so it's illogical (in my view) that a human sacrifice would/could attone for the salvation of souls that are not in any way human. This model makes more logical sense that the Judeo-Christian model for the following reasons: 1) The reason we are special and loved by God is because we are souls born of God in the spirit world, not because we are human beings born on earth. This makes us "Children of God" in a completely literal sense. 2) Earth no longer needs to be the center of the universe. If there is intelligent alien life elsewhere in the universe, there are no issues with the potential need for them to have their own Jesus dying as a member of that alien race for their own alien sins. The Bible says Jesus died once (as a human) for all time (correct me if I'm wrong), which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation. Under the Newton model, alien life with souls (should any exist) poses no theological problem, so there is no need for earth to be considered particularly special -- which means the possible existence of trillions of other earth-like planets, even those teeming with life, poses no theological problem either. 3) There need be nothing special about human DNA. We are permanently loved, immortal, in spite of our temporarily inhabiting primate bodies. Under the Christian model, human DNA needs to be somehow special, being able to cause the spiritual entity (soul) to come into existence. But why does human conception create a soul, whereas chimp conception does not? Under the Newton model, there are no issues, even if we did evolve from apes. All in all, we have a portrait of a God and spirit world that is 100% based in love and positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement (hell, purgatory, condemnation, though souls will sometimes put themselves though something akin to purgatory). We as souls have an enormous incentive to further our spiritual development and that is what life is about. We have a God with infinite patience, not patience that runs out when someone dies. It is, objectively, a more perfect world, a more perfect love, and more logically sound. The whole need for atonement of sin for salvation is, in comparison with the Newton model, frankly.... "crude" in a way because we just don't have the clean logic and many moral answers to life's mysteries and difficulties that Newton's portrait gives us. So to answer your question, there is no need for salvation. There is instead a desire to grow and develop spiritually, one life at a time, and that is the reason each and every one of us is here on earth, even with all it's hardships and tragedy. Thanks for reading.
Because it provides mock authority to walk around with your chest proudly puffed out instead of being faced with mere chronic obsession with mythology. We have one hundred eighty five posts of trivial boredom and irrelevance while important things are going on in the world.
Well for one. They just make stuff up like hell is already started. When that is in direct contradiction to what scripture clearly says. So you make an assertion Then you can't defend it. Then you say I won't talk about scripture. We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better.
That is a good example. I'll have to look more clearly at what was said. Wasn't it paradise that was said?
Well you are clearly a well read and smart individual. I just wondered why that word is used in front of sin when it isn't found in the Bible.
You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him. Just saying.
There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can.
That occurred to me as well. Then I recalled his other post about Judas being in hell according to Dante's Inferno, a 14th-century religious poem, first of three in his trilogy of epic poems on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (the others being named Purgatorio and Paradiso). You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun! So maybe you don't need to wonder all that much. It's comparable to some Prot freely mixing ideas from scripture and Pilgrim's Progress, written in the 16th century. Like Dante's trilogy, both impacted the content of religion in their time but they never formed any formal body of theology. You can't really learn much from them about scriptural teachings that you could not learn better and more accurately from just reading scripture itself.
Just saying. What I find notable about Newton's work is that it presents a model of life that provides *lots* of clean answers. The love works better, there's no conflict with science, no codemnation from God, full accountability, complete free will, life is completely fair no matter what circumstances we are born into, life, including hardships and tragedy has a very practical purpose serving us (instead of just the obtuse "God's glory"). With the Christian model, people can burn in hell forever even though they never even had a chance to hear the Gospel and/or died young. That is inherently unfair, but justified with the line of thought that it's God's right, as creator of all, to send us there even though a person never had a chance to be saved. Under Newton's model, this doesn't happen, leaving absolutely no space for even a claim that God is unfair, which like it or not, there is room for under Christianity. Everything falls into place. It's an arrangement that I would ask why God would not have set up in the first place, given that it has such objectively superior qualities. Does Newton know all the answers? He'd say no, but what answers he does have simply makes a lot more sense. It's the kind of thing that makes me think, if Newton's a fraud, he's a genius of a fraud. And net searches don't even turn up any substantive material claiming he's a fraud in spite of his books being decades old. I see Newton's work like a decryption key that decodes the mysteries of life much better than Christianity or any other faith or belief system does. The answers are too good for it to be written off.
The size of the universe is beyond comprehension. Even if it's one day shown there is no other life whatsoever in the Milky Way galaxy, there are more galaxies in the universe than people on earth, so there could still be an extremely high probability of life existing in other galaxies. But under Newton, whether alien life exists or not doesn't matter. With Christianity, it does. It frankly seems a repeat of the conflict between the church and Galileo. The church wanted earth to be the center of the universe, while Galileo claimed it was the sun. Now today, earth pretty much needs to be the epicenter of God's creation of life, and humans need to be God's only children. But under Newton's model, there is no need for us humans to hold that monopoly. And that just makes more sense.
I gave you a direct link to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. If you wish to debate the point please take it up with the Pope. I have no interest in engaging in defending the Church's teaching. You are totally free to believe what you do. I am not trying to change your mind. The debate about what Scriptures say or does not say, much less mean or does not mean, is 1,500 years old. Neither one of us has much to contribute to the resolution. Perhaps redleghunter and/or vicomte13 may be willing to engage in this discussion with you. They are much more studied on the Bible than I. I will watch with interest on how this resolves.....but betting that it will not.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Mon dieu, you are absolutely right. There is no Hell. It's a myth.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Read John's First Letter. He is the one who makes the distinction between sin and mortal sin, in the Bible. Also, Jesus speaks of greater and lesser commandments, and YHWH speaks of greater and lesser sins. The Bible is consistent in both Testaments that there are greater and lesser commandments and greater and lesser sins and crimes. John expresses the difference between regular sins and mortal sins. The only reason there's a debate on this, I suppose, is that some folks missed the repeated references in Scriptures to different degrees of commandment and of sin.
I forgot about this thread. Your message pulled me back. I don't have the patience to go back to the beginning and refresh. Please give me a synopsis - what are we talking about?
By mortal sin, I am guessing you mean, in opposition to what Jesus said in John 3:3, but where all who are Born Again are assured eternal salvation, what has that, Try dying in a state of mortal sin, have to do with our conversation?
Guess as you may, nothing I say will stop you or change your mind on things. Is it your contention that all one needs to do to assure entrance into Heaven is to be Born Again?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And there is also a distinction between the salavation of the soul, whihc many believe occurs at death, and the resurrection of the body, which mant believe believe will occur at the Second Coming. Tough concepts to some, I know. But in the final analysis: потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I don't know what you are reading to come up with this stuff but this I do know, it is not the Bible, the word of God. So, you go your way, I will stick with God's word and sometime, within the next twenty years I would think, I will find out who is correct, me or you.
Because it provides mock authority to walk around with your chest proudly puffed out instead of being faced with mere chronic obsession with mythology. We have one hundred eighty five posts of trivial boredom and irrelevance while important things are going on in the world. You and so many of your fellow deniers prove the lords point in Luke 18:8b.
This reminds of that great story about a renowned atheist heart surgeon who after opening a patient's chest said to the crowd of eager interns and med students closely packed around him several rows deep "OK, show me the soul." A less than timid voice from the back row responded "OK, show me the pain."
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I for one believe the basics of Christianity are quite clear. There is no 'haze' as to what exactly the Gospel message is, for example. Jesus proclaimed it, His apostles proclaimed it often in the NT. Even the early church theologians clearly expressed this 'rule of faith' in the various creeds. So, as I see it the Gospel message is quite clear. Jesus Christ proclaimed the Gospel and the apostles preached and taught the Gospel. For an Evangelical in any age, the Gospel is the 'entry point' for all other things Christian. Everything else flows from the Gospel: from baptism, church community and theological positions. This was the simplicity of the message which fishermen by God's Grace were given the light to believe while the most 'religious' of the time were confounded and opposed it.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Good one Jasper. That's a keeper:)
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan..... For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Indeed. What is noteworthy is the Greatest of all Commands allows for the following of them all.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Then tell me what you mean by mortal sin, or is it just a phrase, with no definition, to you?
Knock yourself out. If you have any questions pelase take them up with the Vatican. Now, please answer my question. Is it your contention that all one needs to do to be guaranteed entrance into Heaven is to be born again?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Jesus explained the Law as not just in physical violations but 'mental' and of the heart. Matthew 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. We see here that anger in the heart and mind is addressed with murder. Again in Matthew 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. So Jesus is telling those assembled, and us, God looks at the heart for the intents of men and women, not just what we physically do. Jesus Christ summarizes again in Matthew 15 the following: 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. So the solution is a changed heart. For any sane chemically balanced person can go through life and avoid physically murdering someone. Most men can avoid adultery. None of the above can avoid even the passing thought of anger for another or lust for another in their heart. We are all guilty of such. Again the solution is a changed heart. Which for the Christian, only God through His Grace can change: Romans 10: Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Again the solution is a changed heart. Easier said than done as no change of heart will eliminate the nature of lust in human men (and women). Though we may always be able to refrain from the action we will always have to deal with the thought. We need to be aware of this and recognize the thought for what it is and reject it.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
As were the healings of Christ in the NT, so are hearts changed by Him. That is the meaning of repentant heart. It is a miracle and unwarranted.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Yes, your post lists many of the key points. There are a few more, though, that I think are important. In Revelation, at the end of it all, when all has been said and done, Jesus repeats many times that men will be judged by their DEEDS - by what they DID. He gives a short list, twice, of what will get a man the Lake of Fire at Judgment. Theft is not on it. Neither is covetousness. There is some variation of terms and multiplication of concepts that we can reduce to a simple term (Adultery + "porneis" + being a "dog" + "filthy" = sexual immorality, in the terms of the day) Slaying, Lying, Sexual Immorality, Idolatry, Sorcery (in particular, the selling of drugs to induce "magical" altered states) - those will earn you the fire. But what about the rest of sins? And what about THOSE VERY SINS, even. After all, Paul was a slayer of Christians, and St. Photini (the Samaritan woman at the well) was sexually immoral - are they damned to be thrown into the Lake of Fire after the resurrection and judgment, or is there a mechanism for forgiveness? Interestingly, and authoritatively, Jesus speaks of the mechanism for forgiveness by God: forgiveness of other men. He put it into the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our debts in the measure ("as") we forgive those in debt to us". Jesus gives a very long parable of the unforgiving servant in which he speaks of the price of unforgiveness, and the reward for forgiveness: Matthew 18:32-33 "Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Now, when combined with the story of the destination of the rich man who disregarded Lazarus and the promise to the (probably unbaptized) "good thief" of "Paradise" "this day", a texture of the afterlife is revealed - the rich man was in a dry and parched place, where there were flames, but he was not in the Lake of Fire. If I press down one road here, we could end up in quite a struggle. I'm not aiming to do that, however. Rather, I wanted to focus like a laser beam on what Jesus consistently said was the way to be forgiven sins, whatever sins: forgive other men their sins, crimes, bad acts and debts against you. Jesus establishes a principle of forgive-men-to-be-forgiven-by-God that very much fits his overall message. And that is rather different from what many preach. Jesus emphasized deeds, in his teaching and in the Revelation also. And he particularly emphasized forgiveness of others as the key to being forgiven sin. That was Jesus' perspective on it. Paul had a different perspective, one that focused on Jewish concepts of expiatory sacrifice. The two can be reconciled, in the sense that Jewish sacrifices were visible signs of forgiveness and redemption, and Jesus' personal sacrifice was the apotheosis of that model. And that's fine, symbolically, as far as it goes. But it does not, on its own, go far enough even if Paul says that it does. Paul is not God. Jesus is. And Jesus said to men that if they don't actually aid other men and forgive other men, he doesn't know them, and the father won't forgive them - whether they're baptized or not. Moreover, Jesus asks pointedly: What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't do as I say? Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds, and that some deeds: lying and sexual immorality in particular, also idolatry and issues with unbelief, will result in a man being thrown into the Lake of Fire. And he offered only one path to be forgiven: you must forgive others their sin. And he said that calling him Lord, Lord is not enough. He doesn't know you unless you do what he say. So, if you're a baptized Christian who believes in Jesus, but you do not forgive other men their debts and sins, you will not be forgiven your sins either, and will be thrown into Gehenna after you die "until the last penny is paid", and then you may very well also be thrown into the Lake of Fire, too, for the second death. So, if you want to enter the City of God and pass final judgment you must, according to Jesus, be fathered again, of water and the Spirit, follow him, and forgive other men their debts and sins against you. And perhaps if you miss the water, you may be acceptable anyway (see: the "good thief"), but it doesn't do you any good to "believe in Jesus" if you don't forgive other men their debts and sins. For we're all sinners - liars and sexually immoral at least - and that means the fire unless we're forgiven, and the only way that Christ himself said we could be forgiven is by forgiving, and he said that it does a man no good at all - you are not saved - if you believe he is the Son of God but don't actually do what he said. You can break the law, and be forgiven, IF (and ONLY if) you forgive other men. If you're a baptized Christian who is an unforgiving prick, you are not saved and you are certainly going to Hell. Jesus Christ said so. Paul appears to say otherwise. Christ trumps Paul
In Revelation, at the end of it all, when all has been said and done, Jesus repeats many times that men will be judged by their DEEDS - by what they DID. He gives a short list, twice, of what will get a man the Lake of Fire at Judgment. Theft is not on it. Neither is covetousness. There is some variation of terms and multiplication of concepts that we can reduce to a simple term (Adultery + "porneis" + being a "dog" + "filthy" = sexual immorality, in the terms of the day) Slaying, Lying, Sexual Immorality, Idolatry, Sorcery (in particular, the selling of drugs to induce "magical" altered states) - those will earn you the fire. But what about the rest of sins? Which my point was to SOSO that the Greatest Commandment is the test of the heart. If one truly seeks the Heart of Christ by the Greatest Commandment, then the path is not the 'sinners bucket list' from Revelation. Matthew 22:36-40New King James Version (NKJV) 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” The above requires a change of heart. A change only God by His Grace can do. If you're a baptized Christian who is an unforgiving prick, you are not saved and you are certainly going to Hell. Jesus Christ said so. Paul appears to say otherwise. I don't see where Paul says otherwise. Paul preached repentance (Romans 10). That means turing away from our sinful lives. Paul also in 1 Corinthians 13 laid out quite nicely how love defines a Christian. A good tree bears good fruit: Luke 6: 43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
A Christian lies, or gets divorced and remarried, or lusts after a woman or another man for that matter, or kills somebody. What happens to him when he dies?
What happens to him when he dies? What happened to Peter after he denied the Messiah three times he previously proclaimed as the Son of the Most High? By God's Grace Peter was preserved. He continued and persevered...by God's Grace. He did not follow the example of Judas and end his own life. Peter had a great moment of weakness, but God knows the heart and intents of all men. God's Grace knows no limitations. His Grace is not limited to a moment in time of just conversion. He promises to sanctify and glorify us. Each day, each moment we have a Great High Priest, Jesus Christ representing us at the Throne of the Father in Heaven. This includes leaving the other 99 sheep to go out and get the one that is lost. What did Jesus say of Who convicts the world (and us) of sin and righteousness? John 16: 5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. I believe your answer is there.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Well, I believe that the answer is that the Christian who does those things (the list of deadly sins in Revelation) fails to finish the race, to use Paul's words, and is thrown into the Lake of Fire by Jesus at final judgment. Whatever Christian commits the mortal sins and is unrepentent and does not forgive others is one of those who cried "Lord, Lord!", but Jesus will say "I never knew you, depart into the fire."
A Christian lies, or gets divorced and remarried, or lusts after a woman or another man for that matter, or kills somebody. What happens to him when he dies? What happened to Peter after he denied the Messiah three times he previously proclaimed as the Son of the Most High? Indeed, Peter felt badly after he heard the third crowing of the cock, i.e. - he repented of sorts. Had he not done so then or later his fate and his life very likely would have been different. Every man sins, even otherwise "good" scriptural Christians. Not every may repents, even otherwise "good" scriptural Christians. So I say again, I fully believe that Hell is full of very surprised "good" scriptural Christians who were ceretain that they were going to Heaven. Belief alone is not enough, one must endeavor to walk with Christ in his deeds. Thanks to God's love for us we can survive our falls, our lapses from grace but only if we wish to.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
It is not my contention, it is what Jesus said. Read John 3:1-21
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” Clearly Jesus is saying that being born again is a necessary condition. He did not say that it was a sufficient condition
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Further: 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” The word used is may not shall.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
What makes such a person a Christian? That's one issue. Another issue is does God finish what He started?
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestSo just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical.
#184. To: A K A Stone (#178)
#185. To: BobCeleste (#165)
Perhaps I was hasty, tell me what you understand salvation to be.
#186. To: BobCeleste (#0)
(Edited)
This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek...
#187. To: SOSO (#182)
Yep. And I will dodge all such questions on this subject and most subjecta on what exactly Scripture says or doesn't say. Why do you think that there are so many sects of Christianity?
#188. To: SOSO (#181)
The thief on the cross for one example.
#189. To: SOSO (#183)
Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise?
#190. To: Pinguinite (#185)
not exist under the Newton model
#191. To: Pinguinite (#185)
which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation.
#192. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#180)
So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical.
#193. To: A K A Stone (#190)
You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him.
#194. To: A K A Stone (#191)
There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can.
#195. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter, vicomte13 (#187)
We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better.
#196. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#192)
You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun!
#197. To: TooConservative (#192)
#198. To: SOSO (#195)
Perhaps redleghunter and/or vicomte13 may be willing to engage in this discussion with you. They are much more studied on the Bible than I. I will watch with interest on how this resolves.....but betting that it will not.
#199. To: SOSO (#176)
Try dying in a state of mortal sin.
#200. To: BobCeleste (#199)
By mortal sin, I am guessing you mean, in opposition to what Jesus said in John 3:3, but where all who are Born Again are assured eternal salvation, what has that, Try dying in a state of mortal sin, have to do with our conversation?
#201. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, A K A Stone, Bob Celeste (#197)
Read John's First Letter. He is the one who makes the distinction between sin and mortal sin, in the Bible.
#202. To: Pinguinite (#185)
So to answer your question, there is no need for salvation.
#203. To: rlk (#186)
this is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original ...
#204. To: Pinguinite, BobCeleste, All (#185)
Souls are NOT human, and have no direct relation to human DNA.
#205. To: SOSO, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#195)
I gave you a direct link to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. If you wish to debate the point please take it up with the Pope. I have no interest in engaging in defending the Church's teaching. You are totally free to believe what you do. I am not trying to change your mind. The debate about what Scriptures say or does not say, much less mean or does not mean, is 1,500 years old. Neither one of us has much to contribute to the resolution.
#206. To: SOSO (#204)
This reminds of that great story about a renowned atheist heart surgeon who after opening a patient's chest said to the crowd of eager interns and med students closely packed around him several rows deep "OK, show me the soul." A less than timid voice from the back row responded "OK, show me the pain."
#207. To: Vicomte13 (#197)
Isaiah 9 New International Version (NIV)
#208. To: Vicomte13 (#197)
Also, Jesus speaks of greater and lesser commandments,
#209. To: SOSO (#200)
#210. To: BobCeleste (#209)
#211. To: SOSO, BobCeleste, A K A Stone, TooConservative, GarySpFc (#176)
Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect.
#212. To: redleghunter (#211)
None of the above can avoid even the passing thought of anger for another or lust for another in their heart. We are all guilty of such.
#213. To: SOSO (#212)
Easier said than done as no change of heart will eliminate the nature of lust in human men (and women). Though we may always be able to refrain from the action we will always have to deal with the thought. We need to be aware of this and recognize the thought for what it is and reject it.
#214. To: redleghunter (#211)
#215. To: Vicomte13 (#214)
There are a few more, though, that I think are important.
#216. To: redleghunter (#215)
#217. To: Vicomte13, SOSO, GarySpFc, A K A Stone (#216)
A Christian lies, or gets divorced and remarried, or lusts after a woman or another man for that matter, or kills somebody.
#218. To: redleghunter (#217)
(Edited)
I believe your answer is there.
#219. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, A K A Stone, Bob Celeste (#217)
#220. To: SOSO (#210)
Now, please answer my question. Is it your contention that all one needs to do to be guaranteed entrance into Heaven is to be born again?
#221. To: BobCeleste (#220)
It is not my contention, it is what Jesus said. Read John 3:1-21
#222. To: BobCeleste (#220)
#223. To: Vicomte13 (#218)
(Edited)
Whatever Christian commits the mortal sins and is unrepentent and does not forgive others is one of those who cried "Lord, Lord!", but Jesus will say "I never knew you, depart into the fire."
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