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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 69447 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-155) not displayed.       .       .       . #156. To: Pericles (#152) The Orthodox Church supports translating the bible into native languages from the Original Greek. See Cyrillic alphabet. Or Vulgate for the vulgar Westerners ;) A Pole  posted on  2015-05-18   4:12:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #157. To: TooConservative (#147) I have always found the Bible ambiguous on the question of the resurrection of the dead. Whether instant resurrection or a final resurrection of all the dead, it doesn't speak plainly and uniformly to the issue. Theologians still argue it or, more wisely, just avoid the topic. Even Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days before resurrection. Actually, Paul does. An example: 1 Corinthians 15: 12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. That seems pretty plain to me, hope it helps you old friend. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:33:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #158. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#157) I have always found the Bible ambiguous on the question of the resurrection of the dead. Whether instant resurrection or a final resurrection of all the dead, it doesn't speak plainly and uniformly to the issue. Theologians still argue it or, more wisely, just avoid the topic. Even Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days before resurrection. Actually, Paul does. Actually, what I think I remember from theological readings of the eastern fathers is that the souls of the dead do not go either to heaven or hell but fall into a sleep state until Jesus' return when they are then judged. While this sounds like limbo - it is not. I have also read that the saints and martyrs get to bypass the trial phase and go direct to heaven after their deaths. Modern notions seem to think we go to heaven or hell right after we die - and that is at odds with the final judgement part. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-18   8:39:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #159. To: SOSO (#148) Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have absolutely no doubts about that, none. That is an interesting claim, that you already know God's judgment of you. Hell, you can phone in the rest of life here on earth. It is not a difficult claim to make, Read John 3:1-21 and you will come away asking just what you have to do to be Born Again. Christ Himself answers that question in Luke 23:39-43. I have both written extensively on this and experienced the pain of crucifixion. If you comply with John 3:3 by doing what the thief on the cross to Jesus right did, then you too will have no doubts of where you will spend eternity. And, if you think or have been told that you have to live a perfect life, then go back and read my post for the last 30 years, you will find there is nothing perfect about me. But believe this, there are only two places you can go after death, Heaven or the lake of fire, there aint no purgatory! You pick that destination while you are still alive, after you die it is to late. Put your salvation in no hands, read the word of God yourself and ignore commentary, read some exhortations if yu are having difficulty, but don't even do that till you have reached out to Christ thru the Spirit for help and understanding. You are going to spend eternity in one of those two places, your salvation is to important to be left up to others. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:42:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #160. To: Pinguinite (#154) There is a lot of overlap between the Newton model and Christianity. Namely, the overriding importance of love. Sorry, but I cannot agree. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:43:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #161. To: Pericles (#152) Translations of the Bible are very necessary, but are not sufficient for formulating dogmas and doctrines of the Church, which requires reference to the original languages. I agree. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-18   9:10:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #162. To: Pericles, BobCeleste (#158) Actually, what I think I remember from theological readings of the eastern fathers is that the souls of the dead do not go either to heaven or hell but fall into a sleep state until Jesus' return when they are then judged. While this sounds like limbo - it is not. I have also read that the saints and martyrs get to bypass the trial phase and go direct to heaven after their deaths. Scripture supports both. And Origen had his doctrine of Purgatory as well. It isn't actually a central question of Christianity. Given the backdrop of eternity, does it matter whether you make it to heaven or hell (or Purgatory) now or ten thousand years from now? Against eternity, any time scale involving the human race has to be miniscule. The Christian should focus on his destination, not his arrival time. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18   9:38:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #163. To: TooConservative (#162) The Christian should focus on his destination, not his arrival time. I agree. Where, not when. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   11:22:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #164. To: BobCeleste (#160) Sorry, but I cannot agree. You said that we were at opposite ends of a spectrum. I can empathize with your likely opinion that anything not biblical is anti-biblical, but it's nonetheless true that in terms of a spectrum, since we could disagree more, then we are by definition not at different ends of a spectrum. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-18   11:52:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #165. To: Pinguinite (#164) Perhaps I was hasty, tell me what you understand salvation to be. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   12:41:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #166. To: GarySpFC (#150) Jesus is emphatic, you either love or hate Him. Impressive display of an self-mirrored authoritarian demagogue. As always, you have not added a whit to the discussion. buckeroo  posted on  2015-05-18   15:14:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #167. To: Pericles (#158) I am afraid the opinion that the dead a asleep is not correct. Such well meaning opinion is spread among many Orthodox but look it up. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-18   15:30:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #168. To: TooConservative (#149) Scripture admonishes us to be sure of our salvation, not to neglect spiritual duties or commit spiritual offenses. So Bob is on very solid ground scripturally. God for him. Wait.....wait.....is that God laughing? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   20:36:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #169. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#159) But believe this, there are only two places you can go after death, Heaven or the lake of fire, there aint no purgatory! You pick that destination while you are still alive, after you die it is to late. Agreed, it's either up or down. "Put your salvation in no hands, read the word of God yourself and ignore commentary, read some exhortations if yu are having difficulty, but don't even do that till you have reached out to Christ thru the Spirit for help and understanding." My faith was secured a long time ago and remains unshaken. And yes, we are all sinners. And yes salavtion is a very personal thing. And yes sinners can go to Heaven. But only God knows what is in a man's heart and what deeds a man has or has not done. Only God will judge, even in the case of a death bed conversion of a thief on the cross. I would not presume to claim to know the God of mind. I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   20:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #170. To: SOSO (#169) . I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word. From your words. You seem to indicate that hell is already open for business. Is that as correct interpretation of your words? A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   20:57:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #171. To: A K A Stone (#170) You seem to indicate that hell is already open for business. Is that as correct interpretation of your words? Hasn't it been for quite some time? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   21:14:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #172. To: SOSO (#171) Hasn't it been for quite some time? I thought that happened after judgement day. After the dead are raised from their graves. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   21:46:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #173. To: A K A Stone (#172) I thought that happened after judgement day. After the dead are raised from their graves. That is not my understanding. Remember Dante's Inferno, where Judas, among others, resides? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   22:26:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #174. To: A K A Stone (#172) Perha ps this will clarify the Roman Catholic CHurch's teaching on the subject. "I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596 At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597" потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   22:32:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #175. To: SOSO (#169) I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word. What, in Scripture, would have you believe that? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   22:35:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #176. To: BobCeleste (#175) What, in Scripture, would have you believe that? Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Each of us commit mortal sins from time to time. Well....I guess I should say most of us as you apparantly have not and never will. The rest of us have to rely on repentance to remove the stain on our souls and get back into God's grace. This is far as I am going to engage with you on this subject. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   22:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #177. To: SOSO (#174) Repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. How about from scripture. Since it "repeatedly" affirms it. It should be easy to find the verses your quote is mentioning. Because I know that that isn't true I wont bother looking. Show me when you find it. You wont though. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   22:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #178. To: SOSO (#176) Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Each of us commit mortal sins from time to time. Well....I guess I should say most of us as you apparantly have not and never will. The rest of us have to rely on repentance to remove the stain on our souls and get back into God's grace. This is far as I am going to engage with you on this subject. He asked a legitimate question. You dodged it. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   22:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #179. To: SOSO (#176) mortal sin I don't read the words "mortal sin" in the Bible. What differentiates "mortal Sin" from regular old "sin". What is the scriptural basis for using the word "mortal" in front of it? I've heard the phrase before maybe you can help me understand it. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   23:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #180. To: SOSO (#176) John 5;17 tells us All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-18   23:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #181. To: A K A Stone (#177) The thief on the cross for one example. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   23:30:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #182. To: A K A Stone (#178) He asked a legitimate question. You dodged it. Yep. And I will dodge all such questions on this subject and most subjecta on what exactly Scripture says or doesn't say. Why do you think that there are so many sects of Christianity? Debating the differences between them has long ago stopped being informative or fun and has become useless. I will not engage much, if at all, inthis fool's game. Any questions? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   23:34:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #183. To: A K A Stone (#180) So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical. Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   23:35:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #184. To: A K A Stone (#178) Do you believe in that Christians should proselytize each other, e.g. - Methodist proselytizing Catholics, Baptists proselytizing Episcopalians? I don't do that to other Christians and I certainly don't appreciate someone trying to proselytize me. Any questions? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-18   23:43:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #185. To: BobCeleste (#165) Perhaps I was hasty, tell me what you understand salvation to be. I could probably write up a long essay of how I see things work, but that would likely (and understandably) exceed your interest and therefore would not be a productive use of time. But I'll try summarize. Your question implies that salvation is an element that is required, and that any faith system must account for it, because of the nature of sin being incompatible with God's perfection and so forth. But the need for salvation does not exist under the Newton model. Please hear me out as I explain. Let's look at the big picture. Christian theology is based on the idea that we are primarily human beings, flesh and blood, and the eternal soul is created as a byproduct of human conception. For that reason, once the body dies, the soul is then released to it's ultimate destination and can (understandably) never again be part of a new human life since any new human life would have it's own soul. God created man in his image, hand made from dust, as opposed to the animals which were spoken into existance, which is the reason man is considered the children of God and of special worth above the worth of animals. Jesus took human form in order to be able to understand our hardships firsthand, and therefore intercede on our behalf, dying on the cross once and for all for the atonement of sin. All in all, not an unreasonable theology. But by way of comparison, this is what the Newton model says. We are NOT primarily human. We are primarily souls. Souls are NOT created as a byproduct of human conception. Souls are instead, according to Newton, literally born of God in the spirit world. My next statement is not what Newton says, as he never makes any comparison of his findings to Christianity, but what I infer is, because we are not primarily human, the idea that Jesus would need to take human form for the benefit of atonement of souls breaks down. Souls are NOT human, and have no direct relation to human DNA. Our human nature is only incidental, so it's illogical (in my view) that a human sacrifice would/could attone for the salvation of souls that are not in any way human. This model makes more logical sense that the Judeo-Christian model for the following reasons: 1) The reason we are special and loved by God is because we are souls born of God in the spirit world, not because we are human beings born on earth. This makes us "Children of God" in a completely literal sense. 2) Earth no longer needs to be the center of the universe. If there is intelligent alien life elsewhere in the universe, there are no issues with the potential need for them to have their own Jesus dying as a member of that alien race for their own alien sins. The Bible says Jesus died once (as a human) for all time (correct me if I'm wrong), which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation. Under the Newton model, alien life with souls (should any exist) poses no theological problem, so there is no need for earth to be considered particularly special -- which means the possible existence of trillions of other earth-like planets, even those teeming with life, poses no theological problem either. 3) There need be nothing special about human DNA. We are permanently loved, immortal, in spite of our temporarily inhabiting primate bodies. Under the Christian model, human DNA needs to be somehow special, being able to cause the spiritual entity (soul) to come into existence. But why does human conception create a soul, whereas chimp conception does not? Under the Newton model, there are no issues, even if we did evolve from apes. All in all, we have a portrait of a God and spirit world that is 100% based in love and positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement (hell, purgatory, condemnation, though souls will sometimes put themselves though something akin to purgatory). We as souls have an enormous incentive to further our spiritual development and that is what life is about. We have a God with infinite patience, not patience that runs out when someone dies. It is, objectively, a more perfect world, a more perfect love, and more logically sound. The whole need for atonement of sin for salvation is, in comparison with the Newton model, frankly.... "crude" in a way because we just don't have the clean logic and many moral answers to life's mysteries and difficulties that Newton's portrait gives us. So to answer your question, there is no need for salvation. There is instead a desire to grow and develop spiritually, one life at a time, and that is the reason each and every one of us is here on earth, even with all it's hardships and tragedy. Thanks for reading. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-19   3:48:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #186. To: BobCeleste (#0) (Edited) This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek... Because it provides mock authority to walk around with your chest proudly puffed out instead of being faced with mere chronic obsession with mythology. We have one hundred eighty five posts of trivial boredom and irrelevance while important things are going on in the world. rlk  posted on  2015-05-19   5:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #187. To: SOSO (#182) Yep. And I will dodge all such questions on this subject and most subjecta on what exactly Scripture says or doesn't say. Why do you think that there are so many sects of Christianity? Well for one. They just make stuff up like hell is already started. When that is in direct contradiction to what scripture clearly says. So you make an assertion Then you can't defend it. Then you say I won't talk about scripture. We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-19   6:55:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #188. To: SOSO (#181) The thief on the cross for one example. That is a good example. I'll have to look more clearly at what was said. Wasn't it paradise that was said? A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-19   6:57:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #189. To: SOSO (#183) Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise? Well you are clearly a well read and smart individual. I just wondered why that word is used in front of sin when it isn't found in the Bible. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-19   6:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #190. To: Pinguinite (#185) not exist under the Newton model You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him. Just saying. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-19   6:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #191. To: Pinguinite (#185) which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation. There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-05-19   7:02:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #192. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#180) So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical. That occurred to me as well. Then I recalled his other post about Judas being in hell according to Dante's Inferno, a 14th-century religious poem, first of three in his trilogy of epic poems on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (the others being named Purgatorio and Paradiso). You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun! So maybe you don't need to wonder all that much. It's comparable to some Prot freely mixing ideas from scripture and Pilgrim's Progress, written in the 16th century. Like Dante's trilogy, both impacted the content of religion in their time but they never formed any formal body of theology. You can't really learn much from them about scriptural teachings that you could not learn better and more accurately from just reading scripture itself. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-19   8:36:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #193. To: A K A Stone (#190) You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him. Just saying. What I find notable about Newton's work is that it presents a model of life that provides *lots* of clean answers. The love works better, there's no conflict with science, no codemnation from God, full accountability, complete free will, life is completely fair no matter what circumstances we are born into, life, including hardships and tragedy has a very practical purpose serving us (instead of just the obtuse "God's glory"). With the Christian model, people can burn in hell forever even though they never even had a chance to hear the Gospel and/or died young. That is inherently unfair, but justified with the line of thought that it's God's right, as creator of all, to send us there even though a person never had a chance to be saved. Under Newton's model, this doesn't happen, leaving absolutely no space for even a claim that God is unfair, which like it or not, there is room for under Christianity. Everything falls into place. It's an arrangement that I would ask why God would not have set up in the first place, given that it has such objectively superior qualities. Does Newton know all the answers? He'd say no, but what answers he does have simply makes a lot more sense. It's the kind of thing that makes me think, if Newton's a fraud, he's a genius of a fraud. And net searches don't even turn up any substantive material claiming he's a fraud in spite of his books being decades old. I see Newton's work like a decryption key that decodes the mysteries of life much better than Christianity or any other faith or belief system does. The answers are too good for it to be written off. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-19   12:39:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #194. To: A K A Stone (#191) There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can. The size of the universe is beyond comprehension. Even if it's one day shown there is no other life whatsoever in the Milky Way galaxy, there are more galaxies in the universe than people on earth, so there could still be an extremely high probability of life existing in other galaxies. But under Newton, whether alien life exists or not doesn't matter. With Christianity, it does. It frankly seems a repeat of the conflict between the church and Galileo. The church wanted earth to be the center of the universe, while Galileo claimed it was the sun. Now today, earth pretty much needs to be the epicenter of God's creation of life, and humans need to be God's only children. But under Newton's model, there is no need for us humans to hold that monopoly. And that just makes more sense. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-19   12:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #195. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter, vicomte13 (#187) We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better. I gave you a direct link to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. If you wish to debate the point please take it up with the Pope. I have no interest in engaging in defending the Church's teaching. You are totally free to believe what you do. I am not trying to change your mind. The debate about what Scriptures say or does not say, much less mean or does not mean, is 1,500 years old. Neither one of us has much to contribute to the resolution. Perhaps redleghunter and/or vicomte13 may be willing to engage in this discussion with you. They are much more studied on the Bible than I. I will watch with interest on how this resolves.....but betting that it will not. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-19   13:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #196. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#192) You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun! Mon dieu, you are absolutely right. There is no Hell. It's a myth. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-05-19   13:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (197 - 248) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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