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Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 73110 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 158. #9. To: BobCeleste (#0) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. Just a general observation. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-14   11:25:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: TooConservative (#9) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. That is why you must study on your own. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-14   14:48:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: BobCeleste (#13) That is why you must study on your own. It really does defy logic to suggest that the eternal fate of a soul would hinge on what academic knowledge one accumulates in a physical brain. Physical brain knowledge consists of a series of synaptic nerves storing information in an electro-chemical format. The rigidity of doctrine really just doesn't work very compatibly with one's spiritual existence. For example, when praying to Jesus, is it important to pronounce his name correctly? This is important because in Spanish, the name "Jesus" is pronounced "Hey-soos", because J's are pronounced like H's, "e" like long "a", and "u" like the long u. So are Spanish speakers who ask "Hey-soos" into their lives not saved because "Jesus" is not "Hey-soos"?. Of course, does anyone today have any clue how Jesus's name was originally pronounced. If we pray to Jesus, but have not only the wrong pronunciation, but the wrong facial image in mind, are we still saved? I hope you get my point: How do we know we are spiritually praying to the correct entity? Assuming the answer is something in the order of: God knows who we mean and reaches back to us and all's well, then doesn't it necessarily mean: We do not need to have perfect understanding of God to be saved? And if we don't need a perfect understanding of God, doesn't that means it's okay to be wrong about things? And why would God really even care about what factual knowledge we have? Wouldn't he care a lot more about how we loved others? Some of my thoughts, if you don't mind them. I don't see any spiritual value in dogmatic head knowledge, because I don't see how it's possible for God to care either. Under the Newton model, things just make a LOT more sense. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-15   2:43:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Pinguinite (#54) Now, here is what I posted: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. If you have some special insight, so be it, but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:50:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #126. To: BobCeleste (#60) but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. Seems to me, that the Bible is exactly that.... A series of writings by people claiming God said certain things. You certainly are one of great faith, but it appears your faith isn't so much in God, but in the Bible itself. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-17   2:29:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #127. To: Pinguinite (#126) You certainly are one of great faith, but it appears your faith isn't so much in God, but in the Bible itself. The bible, my friend, is the word of God. It is the book, letter, He gave to us to get to know, understand and be better able to obey Him. I am convinced that in the Bible, we find exactly what God said, exactly how He said it and that He means every word in it. I am also convinced that if we, after much study, still do not understand all of what He has caused to be written, it does not mean that God doesn't know how to speak or how to write, it means that we (I) are not as smart as God. As His slave I am commanded to obey, not second guess, I am commanded to study what He said, not look to others to tell me what He meant to say. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   7:15:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #132. To: BobCeleste (#127) The bible, my friend, is the word of God. It is the book, letter, He gave to us to get to know, understand and be better able to obey Him. Personally, I see little supporting evidence for this claim. A theology where people are condemned for eternity for decisions they make in a single life is simply not necessary, and falls short of what makes God truely loving and majestic. Characteristics ascribed to God like anger and jealousy are more likely the result of projecting of human traits on God rather than being an accurate description of an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God. The Newton model gives us that. We have an infinitely patient God with zero condemnation and zero anger, complete free will and complete accountability. We have a very real and simple reason to understand our spiritual uniqueness above that of animals (our humanity is not our primary identity, contrary to what most major faiths including christianity simply assume). It's almost universally true that no parent would condemn a child for what doctrine they hold to, and yet we're to believe God would condemn the vast majority of his children over what theology they believe? Where is the logic in this? If God is all powerful and all wise, then why wouldn't he have created a different model from the beginning? Well, I believe he did. In comparing theological elements, the Newton model is objectively superior to the Christian model, and the theological models of every major religion. Not that such results are necessarily indicative of truth, but insofar as we are talking about an omnipotent, infinitely wise, and all loving God, it should most certainly be a consideration. The Bible is, in my view, a collection of ancient writings, selected for their consistency in projecting a certain belief system. Yes many people over time have held the Bible to be spiritually special, but the same is also true for the Koran. Much of what is written is good, but the assumption that it is "The Word of God" is just that -- an assumption -- allowing a faith holder an easy and convenient device to consider a source of truth. Still, just because we need and want such a thing does not mean the Bible is it. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-17   12:24:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #142. To: Pinguinite (#132) Your view and my belief are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But look at it this way, If I'm wrong, what have I lost? But, if I'm right what have you lost? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   18:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #143. To: BobCeleste, Pinguinite (#142) Your view and my belief are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But look at it this way, If I'm wrong, what have I lost? Your whole lifetime barking up the wrong tree. You would have a whole lifetime of lost opportunities that would have connected you closer to the truth about your existence and relationships to other people. You would have spent your whole lifetime actively leading others done your path to nowhere instead of enriching their life. Need I go on? "But, if I'm right what have you lost?." Likely nothing. Just like you perhaps he will go to Heaven, perhaps not. God will make that call for all of us. Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? SOSO  posted on  2015-05-17   19:34:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #144. To: SOSO (#143) Unless of course you already know that you are going to heaven? Well, do you? Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have absolutely no doubts about that, none. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-17   21:04:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #147. To: BobCeleste (#144) Yes, Yes I do. I will, upon the micro second of my life, find myself embraced by the Lord Jesus as He welcomes me into His heaven. I have always found the Bible ambiguous on the question of the resurrection of the dead. Whether instant resurrection or a final resurrection of all the dead, it doesn't speak plainly and uniformly to the issue. Theologians still argue it or, more wisely, just avoid the topic. Even Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days before resurrection. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-17   22:18:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #157. To: TooConservative (#147) I have always found the Bible ambiguous on the question of the resurrection of the dead. Whether instant resurrection or a final resurrection of all the dead, it doesn't speak plainly and uniformly to the issue. Theologians still argue it or, more wisely, just avoid the topic. Even Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days before resurrection. Actually, Paul does. An example: 1 Corinthians 15: 12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. That seems pretty plain to me, hope it helps you old friend. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-18   8:33:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #158. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#157) I have always found the Bible ambiguous on the question of the resurrection of the dead. Whether instant resurrection or a final resurrection of all the dead, it doesn't speak plainly and uniformly to the issue. Theologians still argue it or, more wisely, just avoid the topic. Even Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days before resurrection. Actually, Paul does. Actually, what I think I remember from theological readings of the eastern fathers is that the souls of the dead do not go either to heaven or hell but fall into a sleep state until Jesus' return when they are then judged. While this sounds like limbo - it is not. I have also read that the saints and martyrs get to bypass the trial phase and go direct to heaven after their deaths. Modern notions seem to think we go to heaven or hell right after we die - and that is at odds with the final judgement part. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-18   8:39:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 158. #162. To: Pericles, BobCeleste (#158) Actually, what I think I remember from theological readings of the eastern fathers is that the souls of the dead do not go either to heaven or hell but fall into a sleep state until Jesus' return when they are then judged. While this sounds like limbo - it is not. I have also read that the saints and martyrs get to bypass the trial phase and go direct to heaven after their deaths. Scripture supports both. And Origen had his doctrine of Purgatory as well. It isn't actually a central question of Christianity. Given the backdrop of eternity, does it matter whether you make it to heaven or hell (or Purgatory) now or ten thousand years from now? Against eternity, any time scale involving the human race has to be miniscule. The Christian should focus on his destination, not his arrival time. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-18 09:38:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #167. To: Pericles (#158) I am afraid the opinion that the dead a asleep is not correct. Such well meaning opinion is spread among many Orthodox but look it up. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-18 15:30:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 158. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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