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The email address is biblequestions@hushmail.com Don’t believe Biff Tannen or A Pole, ask your own questions and judge for yourself. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 83. #5. To: BobCeleste, A Pole, Biff Tannen (#0) (Edited) Biff Tannen made this accusation: “Many things, probably most, of the things you claim about God and Christianity are not in the bible.” A Pole made this accusation: “Because you make things up that are not in the Scriptures.” In both instances I replied to them asking them to show even one example of the accusation, neither has done so Like magic rosary beads, "holy" water," statues, candles, Marian idoltry, and repeated magic incantations? (OH WAIT. That wasn't you.) Biffy and A Pole have agendas. Even if different. I'd ignore the unscrupulous claims they appear to cowardly NOT back up, Bob. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-07   14:06:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: Liberator, BobCeleste, Biff Tannen (#5) A Pole made this accusation: “Because you make things up that are not in the Scriptures.” [...] Like magic rosary beads, "holy" water," statues, candles, Marian idoltry, and repeated magic incantations? Wait a minute. Bob Celeste and you claim to follow Luther's doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Bible Only). If a Muslim claiming to be devout drinks alcohol I have right to point to him that he is inconsistent but I still retain moral right to drink and to think that alcohol is good (in moderation of course) Like magic rosary beads, "holy" water," statues, candles, Marian idoltry, and repeated magic incantations? Re "rosary beads" - Good for repetitive prayers. Do you pray for prolonged time? Do you make up you own prayers over half an hour or so? Re "holy" water - created object can be blessed and sanctified as in "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Re "statues" - God ordered holy statues to be put in the Solomon's Temple Re "candles" - candles are an traditional offering, especially that over most of the Christian/Jewish history electric bulbs were hard to come by. Re "Marian idoltry" - She said "For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed" and you want to be excluded from those generations? She is blessed among the woman as is blessed the Fruit of Her womb. The seed of Eve has crushed the head of the serpent, the Child of the New Eve and New Eve Herself full of grace and Allpure. Those who dishonor Mother, dishonor the Son. Re repeated magic incantations. Do you consider Lord's Prayer or Psalms as magic incantations? A Pole  posted on  2015-05-08   4:15:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: A Pole, liberator (#42) Liberator: Like magic rosary beads, "holy" water," statues, candles, Marian idoltry, and repeated magic incantations? A Pole: Re "rosary beads" - Good for repetitive prayers. Do you pray for prolonged time? Do you make up you own prayers over half an hour or so? Re "holy" water - created object can be blessed and sanctified as in "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Re "statues" - God ordered holy statues to be put in the Solomon's Temple Re "candles" - candles are an traditional offering, especially that over most of the Christian/Jewish history electric bulbs were hard to come by. Re "Marian idoltry" - She said "For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed" and you want to be excluded from those generations? She is blessed among the woman as is blessed the Fruit of Her womb. The seed of Eve has crushed the head of the serpent, the Child of the New Eve and New Eve Herself full of grace and Allpure. Those who dishonor Mother, dishonor the Son. Re repeated magic incantations. Do you consider Lord's Prayer or Psalms as magic incantations? "rosary beads" - Good for repetitive prayers. Do you pray for prolonged time? Do you make up you own prayers over half an hour or so? Were we not instructed by Christ "when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Jesus gave us the greatest example of prayer in John 17. No repetition there. Is there an example of using rosary beads, long repetitive prayers in Acts? Instructions for such in any of the epistles? Jesus already instructed we are not to be engaging in repetitive prayers for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." "holy" water - created object can be blessed and sanctified as in "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Not really a good analogy. The ground before Moses was holy because God was standing on the very ground before Moses. Where in Acts or the epistles or even the Gospels do we see the use of 'holy water?' "statues" - God ordered holy statues to be put in the Solomon's Temple Here I thought only fundamentalists had to refer to the OT for their doctrines?:) The purpose of the 'statutes' in the temple was to shield the priests from the presence of YHWH so they would not die. Much like the same Heavenly entities shielding the Throne of God in Heaven. What's different? These statues in Solomon's temple were not venerated, worshipped, 'contemplated' on like some churches do with their religious objects today. However some of these objects did become a snare for the Israelites leading them to idolatry (2 Kings 18:4). "candles" - candles are an traditional offering, especially that over most of the Christian/Jewish history electric bulbs were hard to come by. Well back in the day candles and oil lamps were a necessity to see in the dark. The symbolism is fine when explaining 'the Light of the World' as Jesus did in parables. When we start blessing the objects and the objects themselves are given 'divine qualities'; or become mandatory practice, then issues arise in making such objects idols. Exodus 20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Those who dishonor Mother, dishonor the Son. Those who honor Blessed Mary the way she was revealed by the Holy Spirit in Holy Scriptures are not in violation of this. Those who promote more than what is revealed by God about mortal humans are in grave danger of idolatry. The way one honors Mary and the other early followers of Christ is to look for them as an example of Christian living, humility and love. Anything more is lifting up another human being. How often do you burn a candle in memory of "“Most blessed of women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite;"? (Judges 5:24) Do you consider Lord's Prayer or Psalms as magic incantations? No I don't and don't think most here do. However, the Lord's Prayer and the Psalms are instructive as to how to pray. Jesus said "After this manner therefore pray ye". Also see John 17. redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-08   11:51:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: redleghunter, A Pole, Bob Celeste (#55) (Edited) A Pole, I see Red was good enough to refute every single one of your rebuttals quite efficiently and scripturally (thanks, Red.) Did his scriptural citations satisfy you? In you heart, are they truthful? With respect to prayer, the Lord will not relent because you have repeated the same request 50 times rather than only once. God is not hard of hearing. With respect to Mary, she *was* blessed to be chosen as the human mother and vessel of Jesus-the-Man. Yes she is to be honored -- which is not the same as being worshiped or regarded as Jesus' "co-redemptrix." Nor does she "speak" *to* Jesus Christ on our behalf. Candles? The past as Red pointed out was a matter of light, and perhaps symbolism. NOT as a slot machine at church with prayer "payouts" for higher denominations coins. Image my surprise as a child when I was told that my nickel's worth of candle-lighting and prayer would not be taken as seriously by God as the quarter's worth of candles. Statues and images for the purposes of reverence are "graven idols," which clearly violate the Ten Commandments. As an aside, some people (Catholics) who sell their home actually bury small statues of "St. Joseph" (when he's not selling baby aspirin.) They "plant" them in the ground, hoping it brings them "luck." The Rosary *is* a formulaic, repetitive prayer or incantation. No where is there any scripture that instructs the Rosary, nor any mention praying over it currying special favor with the Lord for "completing the circuit." "Holy" water...No, afraid not. It's another marketing tool and un-Biblical rite, and part of the "show" -- as are all the bells and incense. But back to the original issue and your accusation of Bob: “Because you make things up that are not in the Scriptures.” Can you provide example(s) of this? Thanks. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   15:59:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: Liberator (#63) A Pole, I see Red was good enough to refute every single one of your rebuttals quite efficiently and scripturally (thanks, Red.) Did his scriptural citations satisfy you? In you heart, are they truthful? He did a good work in presenting a standard reformed evangelical position, I appreciate it. Yes they are truthful in a sense that they are sincere and honest. I do not mean that I accept it. But to address these differences we would have to depart from the specific Protestant presuppositions. (Situation is different when a difference is not derived from such presuppositions.) A Pole  posted on  2015-05-09   1:06:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: A Pole, liberator (#75) But to address these differences we would have to depart from the specific Protestant presuppositions. (Situation is different when a difference is not derived from such presuppositions.) Theological approach does have much to do with the subjects we discuss. However, I did not use Luther, Calvin et. al. as my approach. My approach was to present the evidence from the perspective of the NT church. redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   9:13:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: redleghunter (#77) My approach was to present the evidence from the perspective of the NT church. Perspective of NT Church is preserved in the Orthodox Church. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-14   19:33:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: A Pole (#78) Perspective of NT Church is preserved in the Orthodox Church. My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   22:51:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: redleghunter (#79) My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. You got it wrong way. It is New Testament scriptures that have origins in the early Orthodox Church. Some things were written down by the church leaders and canonized by the church councils later, some were preserved in other forms. Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Same with the Jews - first were the Patriarchs, Prophets, Kings etc, then were the books describing what they did and said. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-15   2:38:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: A Pole, redleghunter (#80) (Edited) My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. You got it wrong way. It is New Testament scriptures that have origins in the early Orthodox Church. Some things were written down by the church leaders and canonized by the church councils later, some were preserved in other forms. Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Same with the Jews - first were the Patriarchs, Prophets, Kings etc, then were the books describing what they did and said. The New Testament is the creation of the Greek churches. Period. The NT are a collection of letters written by Greek speaking Christians to other Greek speaking Christians who were already Christians for years. It is as simple as that. The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. What you read in English is a pale translation. You think The Revelation of John is awesome in English? Try reading Revelation in its native Greek. Scary good. Take for example Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega,"14 says the Lord God, "the one who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." The Almighty sounds so limiting in English - like the language does not have the word to describe the Greek. Almighty? Like he has big muscles? In Greek the word used is Pantocrator - more literal translation is "Ruler of All" or, less literally, "Sustainer of the World". In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something". This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything). The Pantokrator, largely an Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic theological conception is less common by that name in Western (Roman) Catholicism and largely unknown to most Protestants. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:15:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 83. #86. To: Pericles (#83) The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. What you read in English is a pale translation. You think The Revelation of John is awesome in English? Try reading Revelation in its native Greek. Scary good. No kidding? I likely have over 200 Greek manuscripts, 30 Greek lexicons, and over 8 years in a seminary as a student and teacher. So, you're going to. Instruct me? GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15 04:37:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #96. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, Don, liberator (#83) The New Testament is the creation of the Greek churches. Period. That is incorrect unless your point is the Holy Spirit is subject to the church. The reverse is what is divinely attested. The Holy Spirit inspired the Written Words of God both OT and NT. The NT are a collection of letters written by Greek speaking Christians to other Greek speaking Christians who were already Christians for years. It is as simple as that. It is quite simple. They wrote down what was inspired so that generations to come could examine what the NT church was really like. The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. The New Testament and Old Testament is the Work of God, not man. The Almighty sounds so limiting in English Not to me. As God reveals Himself to believers through His Word but also through His actions in our lives. The Pantokrator, largely an Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic theological conception is less common by that name in Western (Roman) Catholicism and largely unknown to most Protestants. I think we know about it:) Evangelicals read the Holy Scriptures...but we also study them too. Strong's G3841 - pantokrator redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15 10:15:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 83. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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