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United States News
See other United States News Articles

Title: Back PRIORS AND PRECEDENT Same-Sex Marriage Gets Its Big Day At The Supreme Court
Source: FiveThirtyEight
URL Source: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ ... -big-day-at-the-supreme-court/
Published: Apr 28, 2015
Author: Oliver Roeder
Post Date: 2015-04-29 12:33:58 by Jameson
Keywords: SCOTUS, Marraige, 538
Views: 25446
Comments: 119

The question of whether there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage will finally have its day in court this week. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court will hear two and a half hours of oral argument in a quartet of cases on this subject. If the court reverses lower court rulings that upheld bans on same-sex marriage, it could mean that every state would have to honor such marriages performed in other states, and could require every state to permit them. A decision is expected this summer, most likely in late June. In this edition of Priors and Precedent, we’ll dig into some data and two sources of predictions for this landmark case. First, some background.

The Case

The petitioners are 12 couples and two widowers from states that bar same-sex marriage. A recent profile by NPR dubbed them “‘accidental activists,’ meaning they filed lawsuits not to further a cause but because of the way the bans affected their lives.”

The challenge to the bans, known as Obergefell v. Hodges, is actually four cases rolled into one.1 The court consolidated them and limited its consideration to these two questions:

Does the 14th Amendment require a state to license a marriage between two people of the same sex? Does the 14th Amendment require a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state?

The first is called the “marriage” question, the second the “recognition” question. The court will hear 90 minutes of argument on the former and an hour of argument on the latter. Civics refresher: The 14th Amendment guarantees certain rights under its “due process” and “equal protection” clauses.

If the answer to the first question is “yes,” then the answer to the second is irrelevant, of course.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 96.

#28. To: Jameson (#0) (Edited)

"Does the 14th Amendment require a state to license a marriage between two people of the same sex?"

What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

"Does the 14th Amendment require a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state?"

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-30   11:13:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite (#28)

What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

Yeah, I have no idea. You'll have to take up these questions with an attorney.

(even then, I'll bet that there will be multiple opinions)

Jameson  posted on  2015-04-30   11:16:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Jameson, misterwhite (#30)

[misterwhite] What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment is argued on behalf of the right to enter into same-sex marriage. Article 4 is said to apply to require all states to recognize an existing same-sex marriage, even where it would not be legal to enter into according to the laws of said state.

At 1-4:

ORAL ARGUMENT OF MARY L. BONAUTO

ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS ON QUESTION 1

MS. BONAUTO: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:

The intimate and committed relationships of samesex couples, just like those of heterosexual couples, provide mutual support and are the foundation of family life in our society. If a legal commitment, responsibility and protection that is marriage is off limits to gay people as a class, the stain of unworthiness that follows on individuals and families contravenes the basic constitutional commitment to equal dignity.

Indeed, the abiding purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment is to preclude relegating classes of persons to secondtier status.

- - - - -

At 1-31

GENERAL VERRILLI: It is different, I agree.

And I and it leads to the second thing I think that the that the Lawrence catalyzed for our society, was it put gay and lesbian couples, gay and lesbian people, in a position for the first time in our history to be able to lay claim to the abiding promise of the Fourteenth Amendment in a way that was just impossible when they were marginalized and ostracized.

- - - - -

At 1-40

GENERAL VERRILLI:

But what these gay and lesbian couples are doing is laying claim to the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment now.

And it is emphatically the duty of this Court, in this case, as it was in Lawrence, to decide what the Fourteenth Amendment requires.

And what I would suggest is that in a world in which gay and lesbian couples live openly as our neighbors, they raise their children side by side with the rest of us, they contribute fully as members of the community, that it is simply untenable untenable to suggest that they can be denied the right of equal participation in an institution of marriage, or that they can be required to wait until the majority decides that it is ready to treat gay and lesbian people as equals.

Gay and lesbian people are equal.They deserve the equal protection of the laws, and they deserve it now. Thank you.

- - - - -

At 2-26

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOSEPH F. WHALEN

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS ON QUESTION 2

MR. WHALEN: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:

The Fourteenth Amendment does not require States with traditional marriage laws to recognize marriages from other States between two persons of the same sex.

JUSTICE SCALIA: What about Article IV? I'm so glad to be able to quote a portion of the Constitution that actually seems to be relevant. "Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State." Now, why doesn't that apply?

MR. WHALEN: Your Honor, this Court's cases have made clear that the Court draws a distinction between judgments between States and the laws of each State. And the reason in part that the Court's decisions have said that is that otherwise, each State would be able to essentially legislate for every other State.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Public acts? It would include the act of marrying people, I assume.

MR. WHALEN: My understanding of this Court's decisions as the reference in the Constitution to public acts is that each State's laws.

JUSTICE SCALIA: So there there's nothing in the Constitution that requires a State to acknowledge even those marriages in other States that that are the same.

MR. WHALEN: That's essentially correct, Your Honor.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Really?

- - - - -

nolu chan  posted on  2015-04-30   19:32:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: nolu chan (#40)

The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment

And the 14th truthfully wasn't ratified legally.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-04-30   21:28:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: A K A Stone (#48)

And the 14th truthfully wasn't ratified legally.

I would agree with you. But its ratification was certified by the Executive Branch and that action is not subject to any judicial review. If you had a truckload of proof, there would be no place to deliver it.

See my post on another thread here for two books on the ratification of the 14th. It's a disgrace, but they got away with it.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-05-01   1:42:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: nolu chan, aka stone, liberators, y'all are (#56)

: A K A Stone (#48) --- And the 14th truthfully wasn't ratified legally.

I would agree with you. But its ratification was certified by the Executive Branch and that action is not subject to any judicial review. If you had a truckload of proof, there would be no place to deliver it. See my post on another thread here for two books on the ratification of the 14th. It's a disgrace, but they got away with it. --- nolu chan

Hmmm...I had no idea, nor had given any thought to the genesis of the 14th and grounds and background for ratification. "Disgraceful," Chan?? Sounds like someone or some people had a motive.... liberator

The 'motive' for passing the 14th is well documented in the congressional record by those who wrote and passed it. --- The southern states that had just lost the war, were infringing upon the rights of their citizens, and ignoring the constitution of the USA to do so.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-01   12:49:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: tpaine, nolu chan, A K A Stone (#77)

The 'motive' for passing the 14th is well documented in the congressional record by those who wrote and passed it. --- The southern states that had just lost the war, were infringing upon the rights of their citizens, and ignoring the constitution of the USA to do so.

You may be right about a Southern governance that was indeed infringing upon the civil/constitutional right of their respective citizenry. Slavery was wrong. But by the same token, slavery could also be found in Northern States. How many Irishmen were deprived of due process abd shot during NY riots for rejecting being sacrificed as cannon fodder? How many slaves existed in the North? Who was the north to invade Southern sovereign borders?

"Honest" Lincoln ignored the USCON by infringing on State and personal sovereignty and creating a grand cluster#@&! The promise and agreement that first lured southern states into the Union were violated, as were the spirit and letter of their respective state agreements. Ironically, suddenly these southern States found themselves to be the "slaves" of the the whims a stronger, oppressive federal gubmint.

The 14th Amendment was apparently authored by libertarian anarchists and secular humanists (subject to minimal legal scrutiny and editing) who cared not a whit about opening the door to Pandora's Box.

Q: Would Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Livingstone and the the signers of the BoR and original USCON have endorsed the 14th as written?

Liberator  posted on  2015-05-01   13:22:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Liberator, tpaine, A K A Stone (#80)

Q: Would Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Livingstone and the the signers of the BoR and original USCON have endorsed the 14th as written?

Had the content of the 14th been in the original constitution, I doubt it would have been ratified. The part about dictating to the states who is a citizen of a state would not have been tolerated. It destroys state sovereignty.

A fair number of the ratifying documents expressed reservations as it was. Links go to the Avalon Project at Yale University.

The ratification of New York starts:

WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected and Met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia in the Common-wealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of the United States, Do declare and make known.

That all Power is originally vested in and consequently derived from the People, and that Government is instituted by them for their common Interest Protection and Security.

That the enjoyment of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness are essential rights which every Government ought to respect and preserve.

That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness; that every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the Government thereof, remains to the People of the several States, or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same; And that those Clauses in the said Constitution, which declare, that Congress shall not have or exercise certain Powers, do not imply that Congress is entitled to any Powers not given by the said Constitution; but such Clauses are to be construed either as exceptions to certain specified Powers, or as inserted merely for greater Caution.

[snip]

The ratification of Rhode Island starts,

We the Delegates of the People of the State of Rhode-Island, and Providence Plantations, duly elected and met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of this State, do declare and make known In That there are certain natural rights, of which men when they form a social compact, cannot deprive or divest their posterity, among which are the enjoyment of Life and Liberty, with the means of acquiring, possessing and protecting Property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

2d That all power is naturally vested in, and consequently derived from the People; that magistrates therefore are their trustees and agents, and at all times amenable to them.

3d That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness:- That the rights of the States respectively, to nominate and appoint all State Officers, and every other power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of government thereof, remain to the people of the several states, or their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same; and that those clauses in the said constitution which declare that Congress shall not have or exercise certain powers, do not imply, that Congress is entitled to any powers not given by the said constitution, but such clauses are to be construed as exceptions to certain specified powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.

[snip]

The Virginia ratification,

Virginia to wit

We the Delegates of the People of Virginia duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us to decide thereon Do in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will: that therefore no right of any denomination can be cancelled abridged restrained or modified by the Congress by the Senate or House of Representatives acting in any Capacity by the President or any Department or Officer of the United States except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes: & that among other essential rights the liberty of Conscience and of the Press cannot be cancelled abridged restrained or modified by any authority of the United States. With these impressions with a solemn appeal to the Searcher of hearts for the purity of our intentions and under the conviction that whatsoever imperfections may exist in the Constitution ought rather to be examined in the mode prescribed therein than to bring the Union into danger by a delay with a hope of obtaining Amendments previous to the Ratification, We the said Delegates in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia do by these presents assent to and ratify the Constitution recommended on the seventeenth day of September one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven by the Federal Convention for the Government of the United States hereby announcing to all those whom it may concern that the said Constitution is binding upon the said People according to an authentic Copy hereto annexed in the Words following;

Done in Convention this twenty Sixth day of June one thousand seven hundred and eighty eight By Order of the Convention

nolu chan  posted on  2015-05-01   16:50:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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