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United States News
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Title: Back PRIORS AND PRECEDENT Same-Sex Marriage Gets Its Big Day At The Supreme Court
Source: FiveThirtyEight
URL Source: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ ... -big-day-at-the-supreme-court/
Published: Apr 28, 2015
Author: Oliver Roeder
Post Date: 2015-04-29 12:33:58 by Jameson
Keywords: SCOTUS, Marraige, 538
Views: 25452
Comments: 119

The question of whether there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage will finally have its day in court this week. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court will hear two and a half hours of oral argument in a quartet of cases on this subject. If the court reverses lower court rulings that upheld bans on same-sex marriage, it could mean that every state would have to honor such marriages performed in other states, and could require every state to permit them. A decision is expected this summer, most likely in late June. In this edition of Priors and Precedent, we’ll dig into some data and two sources of predictions for this landmark case. First, some background.

The Case

The petitioners are 12 couples and two widowers from states that bar same-sex marriage. A recent profile by NPR dubbed them “‘accidental activists,’ meaning they filed lawsuits not to further a cause but because of the way the bans affected their lives.”

The challenge to the bans, known as Obergefell v. Hodges, is actually four cases rolled into one.1 The court consolidated them and limited its consideration to these two questions:

Does the 14th Amendment require a state to license a marriage between two people of the same sex? Does the 14th Amendment require a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state?

The first is called the “marriage” question, the second the “recognition” question. The court will hear 90 minutes of argument on the former and an hour of argument on the latter. Civics refresher: The 14th Amendment guarantees certain rights under its “due process” and “equal protection” clauses.

If the answer to the first question is “yes,” then the answer to the second is irrelevant, of course.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

#28. To: Jameson (#0) (Edited)

"Does the 14th Amendment require a state to license a marriage between two people of the same sex?"

What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

"Does the 14th Amendment require a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state?"

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-30   11:13:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite (#28)

What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

Yeah, I have no idea. You'll have to take up these questions with an attorney.

(even then, I'll bet that there will be multiple opinions)

Jameson  posted on  2015-04-30   11:16:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Jameson, misterwhite (#30)

[misterwhite] What part of the 14th amendment requires this?

The 14th amendment?? Why isn't this covered under Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution -- "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."

The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment is argued on behalf of the right to enter into same-sex marriage. Article 4 is said to apply to require all states to recognize an existing same-sex marriage, even where it would not be legal to enter into according to the laws of said state.

At 1-4:

ORAL ARGUMENT OF MARY L. BONAUTO

ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS ON QUESTION 1

MS. BONAUTO: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:

The intimate and committed relationships of samesex couples, just like those of heterosexual couples, provide mutual support and are the foundation of family life in our society. If a legal commitment, responsibility and protection that is marriage is off limits to gay people as a class, the stain of unworthiness that follows on individuals and families contravenes the basic constitutional commitment to equal dignity.

Indeed, the abiding purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment is to preclude relegating classes of persons to secondtier status.

- - - - -

At 1-31

GENERAL VERRILLI: It is different, I agree.

And I and it leads to the second thing I think that the that the Lawrence catalyzed for our society, was it put gay and lesbian couples, gay and lesbian people, in a position for the first time in our history to be able to lay claim to the abiding promise of the Fourteenth Amendment in a way that was just impossible when they were marginalized and ostracized.

- - - - -

At 1-40

GENERAL VERRILLI:

But what these gay and lesbian couples are doing is laying claim to the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment now.

And it is emphatically the duty of this Court, in this case, as it was in Lawrence, to decide what the Fourteenth Amendment requires.

And what I would suggest is that in a world in which gay and lesbian couples live openly as our neighbors, they raise their children side by side with the rest of us, they contribute fully as members of the community, that it is simply untenable untenable to suggest that they can be denied the right of equal participation in an institution of marriage, or that they can be required to wait until the majority decides that it is ready to treat gay and lesbian people as equals.

Gay and lesbian people are equal.They deserve the equal protection of the laws, and they deserve it now. Thank you.

- - - - -

At 2-26

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOSEPH F. WHALEN

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS ON QUESTION 2

MR. WHALEN: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:

The Fourteenth Amendment does not require States with traditional marriage laws to recognize marriages from other States between two persons of the same sex.

JUSTICE SCALIA: What about Article IV? I'm so glad to be able to quote a portion of the Constitution that actually seems to be relevant. "Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State." Now, why doesn't that apply?

MR. WHALEN: Your Honor, this Court's cases have made clear that the Court draws a distinction between judgments between States and the laws of each State. And the reason in part that the Court's decisions have said that is that otherwise, each State would be able to essentially legislate for every other State.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Public acts? It would include the act of marrying people, I assume.

MR. WHALEN: My understanding of this Court's decisions as the reference in the Constitution to public acts is that each State's laws.

JUSTICE SCALIA: So there there's nothing in the Constitution that requires a State to acknowledge even those marriages in other States that that are the same.

MR. WHALEN: That's essentially correct, Your Honor.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Really?

- - - - -

nolu chan  posted on  2015-04-30   19:32:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: nolu chan (#40)

States don't have to honor the gun laws of other states (eg., concealed carry). And that's a right that IS protected by it's own amendment.

They don't have to honor the medical marijuana laws of other states.

So why should they honor other states' marriage laws which have been a state-decided issue for hundreds of years?

Finding a hidden constitutional right for gay marriage and forcing it on every state will result in perpetual civil unrest similar to the 40-year-old abortion decision.

Nationwide gay marriage will require a constitutional amendment and there are nowhere near enough votes to pass one. Which should tell you something right there.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-05-01   9:54:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: misterwhite (#68)

So why should they [states] honor other states' marriage laws which have been a state-decided issue for hundreds of years?

I think it has something to do with that Constitution supreme law of the land thingee.

Art 4, Sec 1:

Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=245

1 Stat. 122, First Congress, Sess. II, Ch, 11, 12, 1790

Chap. XI.—An Act to prescribe the mode in which the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings in each Stae, shall be authenticated so as to take effect in every other State.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the acts of the legislatures of the several states shall be authenticated by having the seal of their respective states affixed thereto: That the records and judicial proceedings of the courts of any state, shall be proved or admitted in any other court within the United States, by the attestation of the clerk, and the seal of the court annexed, if there be a seal, together with a certificate of the judge, chief justice, or presiding magistrate, as the case may be, that the said attestation is in due form. And the said records and judicial proceedings authenticated as aforesaid, shall have such faith and credit given to them in every court within the United States, as they have by law or usage in the courts of the state from whence the said records are or shall be taken.(a)

Approved, May 26, 1790.

_____

(a) Art. 4, sec. 1, Constitution of the United States.—The decisions of the courts of the United States upon this statute, and on the introduction in evidence of the "acts, records, and judicial proceedings," have been:

Under the fourth article and 1st section of the constitution of the United States, and the act of 26th May, 1790, if a judgment has the effect of record evidence in the courts of the State from which it is taken, it has the same effect in the courts of every other State; and the plea of all debet is not a good plea to an action brought upon such judgment in a court of another State. Mills v. Duryee, 7 Cranch, 483; 2 Cond. Rep. 578. See Leland v. Wilkinson, 6 Peters, 317. United States v. Johns, 4 Dall. 412. Ferguson v. Harwood, 7 Cranch, 408; 2 Cond. Rep. 548. Drummond's adm'rs v. Magruder's trustees, 9 Cranch, 122; 3 Cond. Rep. 303.

Under the act of May 26, 1790, prescribing the mode in which the public records each State shall be authenticated, so as to take effect in every other State, copies of the legislative acts of the several States, authenticated by having the seal of the State affixed thereto, are conclusive evidence of such acts in every other State. No other formality is required, than the annexation of the seal, and in the absence of all contrary proof, it must be presumed to have been done by an officer having the custody thereof, and competent authority to do the act. United States v. Amedy, 11 Wheat. 393; 6 Cond. Rep. 363.

The record of a judgment in one State is conclusive in another, although it appears that the suit in which it was rendered was commenced by an attachment of property, the defendant having afterwards appeared and taken defence. Mayhew v. Thatcher, 6 Wheat. 129; 5 Cond. Rep. 34.

In an action upon a judgment, in another State, the defendant cannot plead any fact in bar which contradicts the record on which the suit is brought. Field v. Gibbs, Peters' C.C.R. 155. See Green v. Sarmiento, Peters' C.C.R. 74. Blount v. Darrah, 4 Wash. C.C.R. 657. Turner v. Waddington, 3 Wash. C.C.R. 126.

- - - - -

28 U.S.C. 1738C says they need not do so when it concerns same-sex marriage. Of course, this is under legal challenge as it appears to be a Statute that unconstitutionally purports to carve out an exception to a the constitutional full faith and credit provision. Congress has authority to pass laws only pursuant to the Constitution.

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-28/part-v/chapter-115/section-1738c/

EVIDENCE; DOCUMENTARY - 28 U.S.C. § 1738C (2012)

§1738C. Certain acts, records, and proceedings and the effect thereof

No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.

(Added Pub. L. 104–199, §2(a), Sept. 21, 1996, 110 Stat. 2419.)

- - - - -

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-28/part-v/chapter-115/section-1738/

EVIDENCE; DOCUMENTARY - 28 U.S.C. § 1738 (2012)

§ 1738. State and Territorial statutes and judicial proceedings; full faith and credit

The Acts of the legislature of any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States, or copies thereof, shall be authenticated by affixing the seal of such State, Territory or Possession thereto.

The records and judicial proceedings of any court of any such State, Territory or Possession, or copies thereof, shall be proved or admitted in other courts within the United States and its Territories and Possessions by the attestation of the clerk and seal of the court annexed, if a seal exists, together with a certificate of a judge of the court that the said attestation is in proper form.

Such Acts, records and judicial proceedings or copies thereof, so authenticated, shall have the same full faith and credit in every court within the United States and its Territories and Possessions as they have by law or usage in the courts of such State, Territory or Possession from which they are taken.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 646, 62 Stat. 947.)

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-28/part-v/chapter-115/section-1738a/

EVIDENCE; DOCUMENTARY - 28 U.S.C. § 1738A (2012)

§ 1738A. Full faith and credit given to child custody determinations

(a) The appropriate authorities of every State shall enforce according to its terms, and shall not modify except as provided in subsections (f), (g), and (h) of this section, any custody determination or visitation determination made consistently with the provisions of this section by a court of another State.

[snip]

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-28/part-v/chapter-115/section-1738b/

EVIDENCE; DOCUMENTARY - 28 U.S.C. § 1738B (2012)

§ 1738B. Full faith and credit for child support orders

(a) General Rule.—The appropriate authorities of each State—

(1) shall enforce according to its terms a child support order made consistently with this section by a court of another State; and

(2) shall not seek or make a modification of such an order except in accordance with subsections (e), (f), and (i).

[snip]

- - - - -

Full faith and credit clause. The clause of the U.S. Constitution (Art. IV, Sec. 1) which provides that the various states must recognize legislative acts, public records, and judicial decisions of the other states within the United States. There are exceptions to this, a major one being that a state need not recognize a divorce decree of a state where neither spouse was a legal resident. Doctrine means that a state must accord the judgment of a court of another state the same credit that is is entitled to in the courts of that state. Morphet v. Morphet, 263 Or. 311, 502 P.2d 255, 260. A judgment or record shall have the same faith, credit, conclusive effect, and obligatory force in other states as it has by law or usage in the state from whence taken. Pennsylvania Fire Ins. Co. of Philadelphia v. Gold Issue Min. & Mill Co., 243 U.S. 93, 37 S.Ct. 344, 61 L.Ed. 610. See also Comity, Fauntleroy doctrine.

- - - - -

Fauntleroy Doctrine. In Fauntleroy v. Lum, 210 U.S. 230, 28 S.Ct. 641, 52 L.Ed. 1039, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a state must give full faith and credit to a judgment of a sister state if such state had jurisdiction to render it even though the judgment is based on an original cause of action which is illegal in the state in which enforcement is sought.

- - - - -

Comity. Courtest; complaisance; respect; a willingness to grant a privilege, not as a matter of right, but out of deference and good will. Recognition that one sov ereignty allows within its territory to the legislative, executive, or judicial act of aother sovereignty, having due regard to rights of its own citizens. Nowell v. Nowell, Tex.Civ.App., 408 S.W.2d 550, 553. In general, principle of "comity" is that courts of one state or jurisdiction will give effect to laws and judicial decisions of another state or jurisdiction, not as a matter of obligation but out of deference and mutual respect. Brown v. Babbitt Ford, Inc., 117 Ariz. 192, 571 P.2d 689, 695. See also Full faith and credit clause.

- - - - -

Public acts are those which have a public authority, and which have been made before public officers, are authorized by a public seal, have been made public by the authority of a magistrate, or which have been extracted and been properly authenticated from public records.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-05-01   14:15:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: nolu chan (#82)

"Art 4, Sec 1:"

You should read your own posts sometime (but hey, who has that kind of time?). In your post #40 lies the answer:

"And the reason in part that the Court's decisions have said that is that otherwise, each State would be able to essentially legislate for every other State."

In other words, if Article IV, Section 1 applied to state laws, then those laws would have to apply in every state.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-05-01   14:33:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: misterwhite (#83)

You should read your own posts sometime (but hey, who has that kind of time?). In your post #40 lies the answer:

"And the reason in part that the Court's decisions have said that is that otherwise, each State would be able to essentially legislate for every other State."

In other words, if Article IV, Section 1 applied to state laws, then those laws would have to apply in every state.

You should really stop to think, if you can find the time, before you post rubbish.

A state-issued certificate of marriage is not a law. The official state record of the act of marriage having occurred falls squarely into the Fourteenth Amendment.

Perhaps it is a matter of which speaker is more important, the attorney for the respondents or the supreme court justice sitting on the bench.

Putting the quote back in context, it is an argument to which Justice Scalia expresses skepticism. The reading public may judge from the exchange just how well attorney Whalen sold his argument.

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS ON QUESTION 2

MR. WHALEN: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:

The Fourteenth Amendment does not require States with traditional marriage laws to recognize marriages from other States between two persons of the same sex.

JUSTICE SCALIA: What about Article IV? I'm so glad to be able to quote a portion of the Constitution that actually seems to be relevant. "Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State." Now, why doesn't that apply?

MR. WHALEN: Your Honor, this Court's cases have made clear that the Court draws a distinction between judgments between States and the laws of each State. And the reason in part that the Court's decisions have said that is that otherwise, each State would be able to essentially legislate for every other State.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Public acts? It would include the act of marrying people, I assume.

MR. WHALEN: My understanding of this Court's decisions as the reference in the Constitution to public acts is that each State's laws.

JUSTICE SCALIA: So there there's nothing in the Constitution that requires a State to acknowledge even those marriages in other States that that are the same.

MR. WHALEN: That's essentially correct, Your Honor.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Really?

nolu chan  posted on  2015-05-01   15:05:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 87.

#104. To: nolu chan (#87)

"The official state record of the act of marriage having occurred falls squarely into the Fourteenth Amendment."

Then why did you bring up Article IV, Section 1 in your post #82 and dedicate 5,000 words to it?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-05-01 18:07:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

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