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The Greatness of Charlie Kirk: An Eyewitness Account of His Life and Martyrdom Status: Not Logged In; Sign In United States News See other United States News Articles Title: Let me ask all of you some questions: Source: www.ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Apr 22, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 15727 Comments: 102 Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 65. #8. To: BobCeleste (#0) #1 -- I have no idea... #2 -- The Constitution wasn't penned until the late 1780s, so during the 1770s everybody was Constitutionally clueless. #3 -- The Revolution only became "legal" and acceptable after our Founding Fathers won... Prior to that, they were considered to be treasonous outlaws. #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   15:45:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Willie Green (#8) #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-22   17:05:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: BobCeleste, tpaine (#11) You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. Wikipedia excerpt: Deism in the United States In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence. Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[44] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the United States and Europe). A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York" and other deistic societies from Maine to Georgia.[45] In the United States there is controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians, deists, or something in between.[46][47] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington.[48][49][50] Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."[51][52] Franklin also wrote that "the Deity sometimes interferes by his particular Providence, and sets aside the Events which would otherwise have been produc'd in the Course of Nature, or by the Free Agency of Man.[53] He later stated, in the Constitutional Convention, that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."[54] For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, Frazer, following the lead of Sydney Ahlstrom, characterizes Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[55][56] Frazer cites Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, where he wrote, "I tremble" at the thought that "God is just," and he warned of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery That's quite a few Founding Fathers who were either "deists" or had deist tendencies, Bob. I concede that Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate source of such information. But you'll have to cite a more reputable source if you want to claim that these men were strictly God-fearing Christians and not Deists. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   20:23:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, CZ82 (#15) Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists Three don't even come close to a dozen. How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. Also selectively quoting them. Over 90% of the founders were practicing Christians of Trinitarian denominations. The First Great Awakening was the major faith influence in colonial America. The Enlightenment swept Western European nations but had little impact in the American colonies. The revolution influenced by the Enlightenment was the French Revolution not the American revolution. In nations where the Enlightenment flourished, churches diminished. Fewer pews were occupied. In colonial America the Christian faith flourished and church membership grew. Call your alma mater and get your money back. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:01:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Don't forget: prior to the Revolution and our Constitution & Bill of Rights, religious tolerance was inconsistant in the Colonies. In fact, many colonies had official State religions and participation in politics/government was prohibited unless individuals were members of the officially established state religion. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non-religious agnostics.) Call your alma mater and get your money back. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   8:08:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc (#37) If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Thomas Paine is easy. He was a deist. Franklin's beliefs developed over his long life. Modern historians see him more as a Unitarian and not a deist. There are too many works on Washington showing his belief in a Trinitarian God. A good reference if you are interested is "Sacred Fire" a tome on the faith of George Washington. The book covers his own writings on faith and books he used for Bible Study and prayer. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non- religious agnostics.) The above is called historical revisionism. It is an attempt by leftist 'scholars' today trying to read back modern sentiments/thoughts/motivations into historical figures. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Yes I am sure such has served you well in your professional career in your area of expertise. No doubt you would call me on an Engineering matter if I posted an excerpt from wikipedia asserting a matter. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:18:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#49) The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence Signed July 4, 1776 Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   13:28:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Willie Green, liberator, BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#63) That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. Don't think the founders were jumping ship based on a state law. Here are the denominations of the The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention: The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention Christian Denominations As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. As I explained in response to you such is revisionist history. Trying to put modern ideas/culture/philosophy on 18th century people. What confirms my point is that AFTER the Constitution was ratified and the First Amendment in effect no one 'changed their faith' or expressed their lack of faith in the Christian God. There was no major historical event where people stopped going to church or the Christian faith was diminished. That came much later in American society with the rise of the socialist-progressive atheist humanist movement. This same movement exercised another tactic of historical revisionism by trying to invoke the few deists in colonial America as really atheists and like them. Which of course is bunk. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   13:58:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 65. #68. To: redleghunter, Willie Green (#65) What confirms my point is that AFTER the Constitution was ratified and the First Amendment in effect no one 'changed their faith' or expressed their lack of faith in the Christian God. There was no major historical event where people stopped going to church or the Christian faith was diminished. That came much later in American society with the rise of the socialist-progressive atheist humanist movement. This same movement exercised another tactic of historical revisionism by trying to invoke the few deists in colonial America as really atheists and like them. Which of course is bunk. +500 Q: WHAT has prompted this sudden rash of historical revisionism that denied America's Christian Founders' past? I'm not sure Willie can refute and recalibrate your above confirmed point(s). No one was compelled to "changed their faith" after the USCON was ratified. NONE whatsoever. And for some reason, he's not yet refuted you link to the Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention who were comprised of various Christian Denominations. Go ahead, Willie. Link us back to a source that supports your assertion that "Deists" were only masquerading as Christians for "public/political purposes only." And specify and source which ones were Deist/Atheist as well. Thanks. P.S. -- If you can't, you're just engaging in propagandist rumor-mongering and wishful thinking, aren't you? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23 15:26:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 65. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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