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POWERFUL: Charlie Kirk's final speech delivered in South Korea 9/6/25 2026 in Bible Prophecy 2.4 Billion exposed to excessive heat Status: Not Logged In; Sign In United States News See other United States News Articles Title: Let me ask all of you some questions: Source: www.ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Apr 22, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 16635 Comments: 102 Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 62. #14. To: BobCeleste (#0) 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? You won't get any straight answers to this one. Apparently, it was fine for the Founders to become traitorous rebels and depose the rule of their lawful king but it is unthinkable to dispose of some puny temporary mediocrity like the (generally loathsome) presidents of the last half-century. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-22   19:53:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: TooConservative (#14) 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? You won't get any straight answers to this one. Apparently, it was fine for the Founders to become traitorous rebels and depose the rule of their lawful king but it is unthinkable to dispose of some puny temporary mediocrity like the (generally loathsome) presidents of the last half-century. Well, Too, you know that if I give an answer, it will be very straight. You can probably write it yourself for me. Taking the question as phrased "IF Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians..." The answer is that it should have been a problem for them, but it should only have been a very minor problem. Paul is not God. But what Jesus had to say about doing unto others, turning the other cheek, paying taxes and not killing, and what YHWH and the Elohiym had to say about not killing, should have all come together to have presented a great big showstopping problem to the Christians of the 1770s. Having proceeded out onto the very thin ice of "Here are too swords!", they then fell through that ice when they didn't "Do unto others as they would have done unto them" by freeing their slaves. The American Revolution is morally indefensible, and most of those who killed in its name ended up in Gehenna on account of it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   8:20:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: Vicomte13 (#38) Well, Too, you know that if I give an answer, it will be very straight. You can probably write it yourself for me. I don't have your obvious talent with rhetoric and prose style. However: the Revolution was completed prior to any writing of the Constitution. You want to judge the Founders' performance as a whole over decades. The question, as you well know, was the legitimacy of revolt against a lawful king as seen through the lens of Romans 13. So the legitimacy of the Revolution does not depend on other acts of the Founders or the Constitution/BoR they wrote years later. So all of that business about freeing their slaves is an anachronistic editorializing on subsequent history, not the revolt itself. The Founders were relying more on the footnotes from Isaiah in the Geneva bible, the version carried by most colonists (especially rascally Presbyterians) that caused King James to produce the Authorized Version. James' one demand: no footnotes! He was right but he was too late to turn that Presbyterian tide of rebellion in the American colonies. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   8:41:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: TooConservative (#40) (Edited) The question, as you well know, was the legitimacy of revolt against a lawful king as seen through the lens of Romans 13. So the legitimacy of the Revolution does not depend on other acts of the Founders or the Constitution/BoR they wrote years later. So all of that business about freeing their slaves is an anachronistic editorializing on subsequent history, not the revolt itself. No, Too, the Bible was invoked. And when you invoke the Bible, you don't get to hide behind historicist and localist arguments about the petty motivations of locals. You stand before the Throne of God and are judged by his standards, which is perfection. If a man is not willing to insist upon God's standard of perfection, then when he quotes any line of the Bible to assert a partial agenda, he's not honest or truthful - he doesn't FEAR God enough to really be sincere about invoking him, he's just looking for some line from the book on which to hang an argument, in order to dupe the rubes. In the First Century Jesus gave a moral standard that had, as its effect, the eventual cessation of the cesspits of public torture and execution in the Roman Empire, and ultimately, the lack of slavery in medieval Europe, a tradition of serfdom, not slavery, in the Christian countries for a millennium, and a strong British tradition, among other places, of no slaves in England. The slave trade was not something happening in Europe in 1400. It was something that exploded on the scene with the discovery of the Americas and the want for labor to work this "brave new world", by monarchies who were already asserting their dominance over the Church. So, the notion that opposition to slavery was "anachronistic" in the 1770s is pure bullshit apologetics. It was illegal in England, and long had been, on Christian grounds. The people who opposed it, opposed it on Christian grounds. And the pure book, the Bible, on which the argument that wants to be born about why it's ok to kill people - the argument that I am smothering in its crib by denying the Founders any BIBLICAL legitimacy for their bloody revolution - has a letter regarding a slave that compels - on pain of the soul - the owner of a slave to remember that the slave is now his brother in Christ. Slavery is fundamental to the morality of the American Revolution. Just because the Americans were greedy and obtuse and chose to morally blind themselves to it does not mean that it isn't obvious, by the Biblical standard of perfection imposed by Jesus, that "all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator..." includes slaves. Paul and Jesus spoke of slaves as men. And THEREFORE no Founder who would invoke the Bible for anything has any right, or any intellectual defense, in pretending otherwise. Jesus said to pay taxes. He said to submit to leaders and turn the other cheek. He said not to treasure money but God and called for brotherhood and love. And he and his father all the way back to Noah and Cain forbade killing. So, what excuse did the Founders have? They were not REALLY fighting for any CHRISTIAN equality of man: they didn't free the slaves. For what, then? To not pay taxes. That's not a legitimate reason to kill people, according to Jesus. What's left? We want to govern ourselves? God never ever said "Do not kill, unless you want to run the show, THEN you can commit as much killing as you need to." There was no justification for the American Revolution. It was mass killing for evil motives. The only thing that COULD have ended up justifying it WOULD have been the freeing of slaves and establishing brotherhood among Americans. But nothing like that was remotely on the minds of the Founders. There was nothing Christian about the American Revolution. It was murderous rebellion for illegitimate, un-Christian reasons. The Founders killed for reasons that cannot be justified by Scriptures. Romans 13 applied to them, they ignored it, and they won their little war and damned themselves to hell in the process. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   9:26:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#41) Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field. That is different from say the rebels of Syria who were and are chaotic, have no organizational structure between one militia and the other and produce worse atrocities than the regime they seek to overthrow. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   10:02:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Pericles (#43) Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field. As a Catholic, I am aware of the doctrine and of the history and of the various legalistic justifications. I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them. Legalism does not convert wrongful killing into righteous killing, no matter who throws holy water at it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   12:58:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste (#59) I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them. I appreciate that you have indeed addressed and answered on of Bob's questions. Granted -- I understand where you're coming from. On a personal sovereignty level, at what point should one justify defending themselves? Is it when state/person confiscates/taxes our goods beyond what's considered "fair"? Should our house be confiscated without compensation, then what? I guess we could just find other shelter. What if we are extorted us for more than we could afford? Or are prevented from worship? Prevented from seeking the right medicine that heals us? And at what point should our family resist physical harm (without doing the same in kind?) Some are though calls....and maybe those questions are intended rhetorically. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23   13:18:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 62. #76. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#62) (Edited) I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them. I am in total disagreement with you, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? Did you see the list of instances where the crown broke the law? When the Potentate breaks the law, it is justification to revolt, according to Romans 13. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-23 21:58:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 62. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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