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Title: I RECANT.
Source:
Chuck Baldwin / Facebook
URL Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink. ... 69863063938&id=226997970644468
Published: Apr 5, 2015
Author: Chuck Baldwin
Post Date: 2015-04-15 02:15:42 by Hondo68
Keywords: None
Views: 58678
Comments: 178
I'm using this Facebook post to make a couple of personal confessions. In one way or another, we are all victims of our past. I was schooled in certain persuasions that have taken 3/4 of a lifetime to overcome. But when I made a conscious decision to pursue and follow truth--no matter where it led me--many years ago, my mind and heart have been liberated with the illumination of truth time and time again. I personally believe that only people who, in their hearts, are sincerely open to truth will ever find it. I will not make these issues a test of fellowship with those who disagree with me (although, I'm sure many of them will). I, myself, believed differently for all of my adult life. And these conclusions have not been made overnight. It has taken years of study and research to bring me to the conclusions I am sharing with you in this post. Obviously, this forum will not allow me to go into detail about the conclusions I'm going to share. That must be reserved for another day and another forum. But, for the sake of the folks--especially those Christian folks--who follow my work, I believe I need to be honest and straightforward regarding these conclusions. So, here we go: 1. I recant the dogmatism of a belief in a pre-millennial rapture. That doesn't mean that I DON'T believe in a Rapture. It just means that I am no longer dogmatic about it; and neither do I think that it matters to a tinker's dam regarding my personal duty to God. The Lord is going to fulfill His divine will regarding prophetic events in His time. Quite frankly, I am convinced that, for the most part, it is not for us to know the things God has reserved unto Himself. (Acts 1:6, 7) For too long, many of our pre-millennial friends have been using a belief in the Rapture as an excuse to sit back on their blessed assurance and do nothing. Even if the doctrine is true, the way it is being used as an excuse to not engage the liberty fight is downright shameful. 2. I recant the position that the modern state of Israel is the same as the prophetic Israel of the Bible. The nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and God destroyed their nation, their capital city, and their temple in 70 AD. Spiritually, the children of Israel have been in a state of blindness ever since. With the advent of the New Testament Church, we are NOT Jews or Gentiles, Greeks or Barbarians, etc.: we are all ONE IN CHRIST. God's people today are the blood-washed saints of all races, ethnicities, nationalities, etc. Again, we are ONE IN CHRIST. Accordingly, I am convinced that the modern state of Israel is NOT the prophetic fulfillment of the future redeemed nation of Israel. NOT IN ANY SHAPE, MANNER, OR FORM. I further conclude that the misapplication of applying prophetic scriptures to the modern state of Israel is producing nothing but perpetual war, the demise of liberty at home, the rise of a Police State, and the facilitation of a devilish New World Order. So, there you have it. I RECANT.
Poster Comment: I wonder if he's getting ready to run for president again? I voted for him when Ron Paul endorsed him in '08, and I just might again in '16.
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#39. To: A Pole (#38)
Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39. harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away harpazM Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative * The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha. Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39. harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away harpazM Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative * The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way.
I guess English reading comprehension not withstanding. We were discussing the claim "Rapture is not in the Bible" statements of others. Yes it is. I don't care who Darby is (he was Irish BTW) or any theories. I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.'
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
This is from Chuck Baldwin's recent piece on Rand Paul, the section entitled "*Rand’s recent homage to Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli lobby".... -------------------- This is another area where Rand’s father, Ron, was never willing to compromise. Ron had a constitutionally-correct understanding of America’s relationship with Israel and other Middle Eastern nations. And due to the constitutional ignorance (and scriptural misinterpretation regarding the modern state of Israel, thanks mostly to preachers such as John Hagee) of most Christian conservatives, it was this issue that most alienated many of them from Ron’s presidential campaigns. Doubtless, Rand is trying to circumvent that potential opposition from within the conservative Christian community by showing them, “See, I am not my father.” Noted political researcher and analyst Joel Skousen put this in perspective recently, saying, “Rand Paul has the same problem [as Ted Cruz]. He’s decided that he can’t get ahead in politics without being a yes-man to the Israeli lobby, and so he takes his pilgrimage to Israel, meets with Netanyahu and other politically connected Israelis and pledges to stand with Israel. The problem with that position, as I’ve explained many times in the WAB [World Affairs Brief], is that Israel’s leaders are all compromised globalists (especially Netanyahu) so Christians have to learn to separate their allegiance to God’s promises of restoring the house of Israel to their homeland and the aggressive globalist policies of the Israeli government.” Amen! What most Christian conservatives don’t seem to understand is that Ron Paul’s position on Israel (and other foreign nations) is actually the best policy to help the people of the Middle East (including Israelis) that the United States could possibly have. The neocon, pro-war, New World Order (NWO) policies that began under George H.W. Bush, and that continue to the present, are the most destructive policies in the entire world at present. The entire world (including the United States and Israel) are suffering (and will suffer) incalculable tragedy at the hands of these wicked globalists if they are not soon deterred. How tragic that Christian conservatives--who sincerely believe they are being a blessing to Israel by supporting a neocon foreign policy agenda--are actually assisting Israel and America’s worst enemies. And, once again, no other presidential candidate from either party will potentially do anything to challenge the neocon, NWO agenda. If Rand Paul doesn’t do it, no other Republican or Democrat presidential candidate will. Obviously, it is too early for me to actually endorse a presidential candidate. I am willing to say that, at this juncture, Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are the two men who seem to stand out. But, since Ted Cruz’s foreign policy is in lockstep with the neocon agenda, and IF Rand Paul can continue to demonstrate a genuine commitment to oppose a neocon foreign policy, he would definitely have a leg up in my book. ......
No relation to the Israel of the Bible. Yup. I recanted of these two items years ago. There might be hope for Chuckie yet!
Da comrade. The government should nationalize the entire financial sector because when it comes to TOO BIG TO FAIL, big government has the monopoly. /s
Try 1917
The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven.
[...] it is possible to trace the development and transmission of these ideas right back to John Nelson Darby. John Nelson Darby has been called the “father or dispensationalism.” While he was not the first to explicate the idea of dispensationalism, it was he who expanded on and developed the complicated theory of salvation history, which identifies a series of epochs following one another in a linear fashion. He was also the first to solidify the concept of the rapture of the church, based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Darby had significant influence on Cyrus Scofield’s beliefs during the Bible Prophecy Conference movement throughout North America at the end of the nineteenth century, and there is no doubt that Scofield borrowed copiously from Darby while writing his annotated Reference Bible. Where does the trail lead from there? Scofield became a close friend and colleague of Lewis Chafer, who went on to found the Evangelical Theological College, which would eventually become the Dallas Theological Seminary. Chafer taught at Dwight L. Moody’s Northfield School in Massachusetts from 1902-1910. During this time, he came into contact with Scofield, who, fresh from the Bible Prophecy Conference movement of the late 1800s, encouraged Chafer’s development as a theologian and preacher. Chafer explicates in an article in Sunday School Times, published in March, 1923, that Scofield was profoundly instrumental in his adoption of his dispensationalism. In 1924 Chafer, founded the Evangelical Theological College. In 1936 it underwent a name-change to become Dallas Theological Seminary and Graduate School of Theology, finally becoming simply the Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS) in 1969. Its first students were a small group of only thirteen that were taught under the guidance of Chafer, who presided over the school from 1924 until 1952, at which point John Walvoord took over as president. Walvoord and Chafer were like-minded colleagues that shared many similar ideas. In 1926, Chafer wrote one of his most significant publications, Major Bible Themes, of which Walvoord revised and updated in 1974. During Walvoord’s presidency at DTS, who else but Hal Lindsey attended the institute, and it was here, under the direction of Walvoord and his staff that Lindsey solidified his pretribulational, premillennial dispensationalism. The final link in this chain is Tim LaHaye. While LaHaye never credits Lindsey for any of his ideas, it is clear that he has relied on large parts of The Late Great Planet Earth for his writing of Left Behind. While reading The Late Great Planet Earth, there are clear similarities between the two authors’ work: from Lindsey’s account of modern warfare during the Tribulations and LaHaye’s description of World War Three, to the words of LaHaye’s main protagonist, Rayford Steel, on his learning of his wife’s disappearance in the rapture – “Rayford had to direct people to the Bible… he had begun taking [his wife’s] Bible everywhere he went, reading it wherever possible;” compared with Lindsey’s, “I’m going to find myself a Bible and read those very verses my wife underlined. I wouldn’t listen to her when she was here…” Compare Lindsey’s account of a football game, “It was the last quarter of the championship game…only one minute to go and they fumbled – our quarterback recovered…when – zap – no more quarterback – completely gone, just like that!” with LaHaye’s soccer game, “most of the spectators and all but one of the players disappeared in the middle of play, leaving their shoes and uniforms on the ground.” Though these similarities may seem coincidental, when reading the two books simultaneously, the parallels between the books are striking, especially in the depictions of the events that occur during the Tribulations. Although neither Lindsey nor LaHaye ever explicitly deny that their ideas stem from this tradition, they are both self-deceived in their belief that the ideas they profess are merely interpretations of “the plain sense” of the biblical text. [...] https://dunedinschool.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/j-n-darbys-end-times-family/
I do not think that these pastors were committing fraud. They just trusted and believed their teachers or friends, so they developed and spread a mistaken doctrine over a few generations.
www.youtube.com/embed/QqpUoivzvv8 Pax Vobiscum.
Sort of like the Muslim factions And the Arab Factions And the Zionist factions etc Useful Idiots all -- in the service of kleptocratic vampira who are draining the Idiot's blood into military industrial profits.
Nope More like a cult of Ba'alfourian energizer Ishtar bunnies.
Didn't Dr. Ron Paul give a passing approval for Iran to obtain nuclear weapons? How is that providing stability to a region already so bloody?
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
The thesis was not the subject of the discussion. However, like over at TOS folks just like to drop their various out of context opinions. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. Again, you are arguing with a premise I did not put forth. If you read my comments, I agree in principle with Baldwin. We cannot be 'dogmatic' on the timing of 1 Thes. 4:15-17. The fact is 'caught up' IS there (which Baldwin does not deny will happen) but does not say when. In an earlier post I outlined many of the theories out there. None of which were Dispensational or Darby. The fact is even for your church and the Roman church there is no magesterial infallible teaching for those verses. Having a priest opine on it is fine and I welcome the opinions, but they are not infallible authorities. The certainty we have of end times events are clearly outlined in Holy Scriptures and confirmed in the early creeds. Christ will come again, resurrection and judgment following. My point throughout has been above the aforementioned anything above and beyond the clear teachings in Holy Scriptures is the theory or speculation of man. Which means one person's or group's theory is not dogmatic. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven... External from Scriptures the closest we have an early church theologian addressing end times is Irenaeus: 1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing;” Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Are you admitting you were wrong in that 'caught up' is actually in Scriptures? What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures? What is your church's infallible interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17?
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
TARP was enacted before Cain made his initial comments. He was commenting on legislation that was already signed into law. And his comments were 100% correct -- the federal government saved the banks AND made a profit. Now, whether or not TARP should have been enacted to begin with is a whole different argument.
That's not necessary if the federal government would keep it's nose out of the financial sector to begin with. But when the federal government forces banks -- under the rubric of diversity and inclusiveness -- to offer sub-prime loans to otherwise unqualified buyers, I think they share the responsibility when the bank fails. Had the federal government not intruded itself, the banks would have been just fine.
In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction). "More guns=less crime" works at the international level too, IMO. Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you wish for peace, prepare for war).
Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time.
False prophets and anti-christs were foretold. They happen to appeal to Americans who hate the idea they will suffer for Christ. To suffer is not really an American virtue.
"More guns=less crime" works at the international level too, IMO. LOL MAD for madmen...You truly believe Iran having nukes which can reach Europe and eventually (thanks to Russian, Chinese and NK missile technology) our own nation? Has Israel used nukes? No. The 12er movement is in charge of Iran. Yet you see no problem giving a death cult who 'looks forward to' purging the earth with fire to usher in the Mahdi. Amazing.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Thank you for your personal interpretation. However, that is not what the passage from Irenaeus said. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.' It would be more accurate to say that the words used by Irenaeus are not certain or clear as was his view of the events unfolding. Using historical exegesis of his time, these were humble men who offered what the Scriptures said without providing much in the way of 'out of the box' commentary. So for me, someone who sees the church enduring the full tribulation of days or "Jacob's time of trouble" can take Irenaeus as saying this. But he leaves open the matter of when the 'the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this.' He leaves that open and does not equate such with a final judgment nor one time resurrection from the dead. That also shows me why some, especially Jewish Messianic Christians see a 'mid tribulation' deliverance of the elect at the 7th and last trumpet. This is the most literal approach of all I have seen, as Paul references the 'with the trumpet of God.' So there is enough in what Irenaeus says and does not say to support both views. Plus if you get the 'spirit' of what he writes, he tells his readers in our common tongue today 'don't worry about it, for it is God's plan.' Another sentiment I share with Baldwin's short comments. Irenaeus left that hanging out there as only reporting the facts from Scriptures and not speculating. I respect this approach and it seems Baldwin is saying much as well. Dispensationals mainly base their eschatology not on a couple of rapture verses but the key being what is meant as 'the wrath of God.' There are two key verses in Scriptures which show God delivers His elect from the 'wrath to come.' Is this the wrath of eternal damnation or wrath poured out as evidenced in Revelation before the Second coming of Christ? That is the question and is what Dispensationalism bases the theory on, not the rapture verses. They see those as supporting verses.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Has Israel used nukes? No. Yes, madmen already have nukes...Obongo and Bibi. I don't share your faith in resident Obongo. Talk about a madman! And Bibi's not much better. His drawing shows that he's lost in space. Has the US used nukes?
In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured.
You truly believe Iran having nukes which can reach Europe and eventually (thanks to Russian, Chinese and NK missile technology) our own nation? Has Israel used nukes? No. Here's another equivalent: Dateline 1943. By this rationale, if US had given Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin the nuke plans, would Mutually Assured Destruction have created a peaceful end to WWII? Your simplest, greatest point: Israel has had nukes for decades and NEVER used them -- despite the open threat of total destruction from Iran. Peace was maintained. Allowing an insane, irrational Iran to possess nukes is the single most dangerous, insanely irrational policy move. EVER. It guarantees that IT. WILL. BE USED. As First Strikes.
Had the federal government not intruded itself, the banks would have been just fine. +100
They helped write them...right?? Lol... And don't forget Jim Bakker, and Jim Swaggart. They've been Christian's "Pope." *eyeball roll* No people are more caricatured than Christians. Here's EVERY "Christian" or rather "Fundie" pastor according to the intellectual pigmies out there:
They helped write them...right?? Lol... And don't forget Jim Bakker, and Jim Swaggart. They've been Christian's "Pope." *eyeball roll* No people are more caricatured than Christians. Here is the portrait of EVERY "Christian" or rather "Fundie" pastor according to the intellectual pigmies out there:
For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history. It's supposed to be scary, that's why it works. Hitler tried disarmament and it didn't work for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or overall either. He lost. These Utopian disarmament schemes always end badly. In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction). Yes, I know the definition of "MAD." I'm not getting your analogy -- the unicorn & rainbow theory is exactly this case. Yours as well as Ron Paul's failure to comprehend the insanity of allowing Iran makes no sense, nor is it a template comparable to the MAD of the US vs. USSR. The USSR and Israel cared about their people as well as possessing common sense (which is why they'd never used a nuke.) Iran? Do you you actually believe a nation of insane Cultist and radicals wouldn't use big nikes, small nukes, and every nuke in the woodshed? These Utopian disarmament schemes always end badly. Especially when those who dis-value life are given toys of destruction and absolute power. Hitler tried disarmament and it didn't work for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or overall either. He lost. Iran isn't derived of arms; Just nukes. And btw -- in Warsaw, the people were disarmed. Except for stolen guns, shovel, clubs, and homemade bombs. I'm sure A Pole can clarify.
That's quite bizarre. I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away See Here
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Your version of foreign and military policy is even more destabilizing and destructive than the neo-con brand. Here's something to think about. The Soviets understood we would not blow them up and they were not ready to irradiate themselves just to 'win' the world for universal socialism. Kind of hard to till the soil when it is riddled with PU- 249. So Russians are not crazy and Americans are not crazy. MAD worked because neither side had MADmen behind the 'button.' Muslims, if you have not noticed, love to blow up people (and things) in market places, places of worship, schools (Russians experienced that one), and drive 747s into towers. Sure, great idea let them have nuclear weapons. A most unwise approach bordering on insanity. Iran with a nuclear weapon and the proper delivery system? MAD? The best result, and I mean the best result, would be having nuclear weapons means they can step up terrorist activities not only regionally but globally. "Sitting on an A-Bomb" they call the shots and can breed terrorism all over the world. Secondly, Saudi Arabia and the UAE et al will not stand by and let the Shia 12er madmen be the only sons of Muhammad to have nuclear weapons. It leads to proliferation. Before you bring up India and Pakistan, I will say Iran is nothing like India and Pakistan. Neither threaten to turn the ME into molten rubble. They only threaten to do it against each other. Iran is run by psycho Mahdi 12ers hell bent on ushering in the Mahdi Imam so he can 'purge' the world with fire and conquer the world for Islam. Yeah sure, give those kooks a nuke.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
So, this is what all of the fuss is about: a single line, in a letter of Paul, encouraging Christians facing persecution: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words." So, what's Paul talking about? "Falling asleep" is a euphemism for "die". Revelation describes world end: heaven and earth rush away. Bad things. Everybody is dying as the calamity engulfs the world. As he comes, the dead rise, here. And as the world dissolves, those with Christ go to the sky with him. The City comes down, the line is formed for judgment, and judgment occurs. Those who went up to meet Jesus coming pass judgment and go into the City. Paul is describing a moment at the end. But that is not what "Rapturists" speak of when they speak of "The Rapture". Paul speaks of a moment, at the end of the world, as the world passes away, when the formerly dead and living who are Christs are caught up into the air to join him as he descends. This is completely different from "The Rapture", as is taught, preached, published, written about. The Rapture is an imagined scenario in which, long before the return of Christ, the end, those who are Christ's suddenly disappear. Then the terrible things spoken of in Revelation come. But look at what Paul is saying! He is saying that when CHRIST COMES, with the trumpet - that's at the END - THEN the dead rise and are caught up with the living into the sky to meet the descending Christ. There will be a lot of dead at that point, as the world passes away. This has nothing to do with "The Rapture" of imagination. There's no spiriting away people in the middle of life before things happen. There's no "Left Behind" of years and years. It's at the moment that Christ returns, which isn't some early on thing. There's a word that Paul uses, a Greek word that means "caught up" with Christ, at the very end of the world, the Great Final Day, when he comes. And that has nothing to do with "The Rapture" of popular imagination. Nowhere in the Bible does The Rapture exist. There is no Rapture in the Bible. Paul's line is the one place that a word translated into Latin as "raptio" occurs, the "catching up" of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, which fits of a piece with John's Revelation, has as much to do with The Rapture as a lightning bug has to do with lightning.
thanks Don.
Why is that bizarre to you? Are you a Greek speaker? Somehow Greeks forgot what these words mean?
We can't afford to train, equip, and fund the McCain Hillary al-CIA-da to chop Christians heads off, and then fight them too. Voters are sick of it as well! The era of USA World Police is over, one way or the other. Reagan and the Paul's knew it decades ago, but the neocons will never admit it. Ronald Reagan and the Paul Family during Reagan’s 1976 Presidential bid- Ron and Rand to the left of Reagan
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestBTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha.
#40. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#39)
(Edited)
#41. To: Pericles (#40)
The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way.
#42. To: redleghunter, A Pole, Vicomte13, TooConservative, BobCeleste, Don, Liberator, Deckard, Pericles, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#14)
I do await Baldwin's expanded comments on Israel. Somehow he links wars we fight with Israel's existence. Is he suggesting Israel not govern themselves and surrender to Arab Muslim nations? I don't think so, but he sees some connection with all the wars America fights with Israel 'just being there.' That is a bit concerning.
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#43. To: neoconz, ziotard (#42)
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#44. To: hondo68 (#0)
#45. To: misterwhite (#13)
#46. To: Liberator (#22)
(Edited)
Baldwin may need to review the history of that part of the world, beginning in 1948,
#47. To: redleghunter (#41)
(Edited)
I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.'
#48. To: Pericles (#47)
#49. To: A Pole (#48)
#50. To: VxH (#49)
#51. To: A Pole (#50)
#52. To: A Pole (#50)
They just trusted and believed their teachers or friends, so they developed and spread a mistaken doctrine over a few generations.
#53. To: hondo68 (#43)
No relation to the Israel of the Bible.
#54. To: hondo68, misterwhite, TEAparrotConservative (#10)
#55. To: hondo68 (#42)
What most Christian conservatives don’t seem to understand is that Ron Paul’s position on Israel (and other foreign nations) is actually the best policy to help the people of the Middle East (including Israelis) that the United States could possibly have.
#56. To: Pericles (#47)
The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven.
#57. To: A Pole (#48)
#58. To: VxH (#54)
#59. To: VxH (#45)
"Da comrade. The government should nationalize the entire financial sector because when it comes to TOO BIG TO FAIL, big government has the monopoly. /s"
#60. To: redleghunter (#55)
How is that providing stability to a region already so bloody?
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#61. To: redleghunter (#56)
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
#62. To: A Pole (#48)
it is possible to trace the development and transmission of these ideas right back to John Nelson Darby.
#63. To: hondo68, tomder55 (#60)
In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction).
#64. To: Pericles (#61)
Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time.
#65. To: redleghunter (#63)
(Edited)
LOL MAD for madmen...
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#66. To: redleghunter (#64)
(Edited)
Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.'
#67. To: redleghunter, hondo68, tomder55 (#63)
LOL MAD for madmen...
#68. To: misterwhite, VxH (#59)
When the federal government forces banks -- under the rubric of diversity and inclusiveness -- to offer sub-prime loans to otherwise unqualified buyers, I think they share the responsibility when the bank fails.
#69. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#57)
What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures?
#70. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#57)
(Edited)
What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures?
#71. To: Liberator (#67)
insane, irrational Iran to possess nukes is the single most dangerous, insanely irrational policy move. EVER. It guarantees that IT. WILL. BE USED.
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#72. To: hondo68, A Pole (#71)
For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history.
#73. To: Pericles (#66)
In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured.
#74. To: hondo68, liberator, tomder55 (#71)
For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history. It's supposed to be scary, that's why it works.
#75. To: (#40)
#76. To: Don (#9)
I read other books; however, I have and will continue judging spiritual matters by how viewpoints stack up against the Holy Bible. There are many good writers of things religious, and they can quote chapter and verse with the best.
#77. To: redleghunter (#73)
That's quite bizarre.
#78. To: redleghunter, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#74)
(Edited)
even more destabilizing and destructive than the neo-con brand.
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
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