[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"International court’s attack on Israel a sign of the free world’s moral collapse"

"Pete Hegseth Is Right for the DOD"

"Why Our Constitution Secures Liberty, Not Democracy"

Woodworking and Construction Hacks

"CNN: Reporters Were Crying and Hugging in the Hallways After Learning of Matt Gaetz's AG Nomination"

"NEW: Democrat Officials Move to Steal the Senate Race in Pennsylvania, Admit to Breaking the Law"

"Pete Hegseth Is a Disruptive Choice for Secretary of Defense. That’s a Good Thing"

Katie Britt will vote with the McConnell machine

Battle for Senate leader heats up — Hit pieces coming from Thune and Cornyn.

After Trump’s Victory, There Can Be No Unity Without A Reckoning

Vivek Ramaswamy, Dark-horse Secretary of State Candidate

Megyn Kelly has a message for Democrats. Wait for the ending.

Trump to choose Tom Homan as his “Border Czar”

"Trump Shows Demography Isn’t Destiny"

"Democrats Get a Wake-Up Call about How Unpopular Their Agenda Really Is"

Live Election Map with ticker shows every winner.

Megyn Kelly Joins Trump at His Final PA Rally of 2024 and Explains Why She's Supporting Him

South Carolina Lawmaker at Trump Rally Highlights Story of 3-Year-Old Maddie Hines, Killed by Illegal Alien

GOP Demands Biden, Harris Launch Probe into Twice-Deported Illegal Alien Accused of Killing Grayson Davis

Previously-Deported Illegal Charged With Killing Arkansas Children’s Hospital Nurse in Horror DUI Crash

New Data on Migrant Crime Rates Raises Eyebrows, Alarms

Thousands of 'potentially fraudulent voter registration applications' Uncovered, Stopped in Pennsylvania

Michigan Will Count Ballot of Chinese National Charged with Voting Illegally

"It Did Occur" - Kentucky County Clerk Confirms Voting Booth 'Glitch'' Shifted Trump Votes To Kamala

Legendary Astronaut Buzz Aldrin 'wholeheartedly' Endorses Donald Trump

Liberal Icon Naomi Wolf Endorses Trump: 'He's Being More Inclusive'

(Washed Up Has Been) Singer Joni Mitchell Screams 'F*** Trump' at Hollywood Bowl

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Bang / Guns
See other Bang / Guns Articles

Title: How Gun Rights Harm the Rule of Law
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Apr 2, 2015
Author: Rick Willing
Post Date: 2015-04-02 12:25:56 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 1332
Comments: 14

www.theatlantic.com

How Gun Rights Harm the Rule of Law

Second Amendment activists are redefining the public sphere, and with it, American democracy.

Rick Willing/Reuters

Polls show that gun owners cite self-protection as the primary reason they are armed. Their intentions are generally good and admirable. The gun-rights movement has done a great job making the argument for individuals to be armed to protect themselves and their families in their own homes. What if you are faced with a menacing home intruder and police are far away? In that situation, it makes good sense to be armed.

But there is an unfortunate lesson playing out for those who have armed themselves to feel safer—and for all of us, too. The gun-rights movement has worked hard to push an increasingly radical agenda that undermines both our personal safety and our civic fabric. To that extent, there is something almost tragic occurring here: The well-meaning citizens who arm themselves in droves, perhaps even in public, are in that very process threatening the peace and order they seek to preserve, and claim to uphold.

Stand Your Ground laws are a prime example. These laws, which the NRA has championed in almost two-dozen states, are a logical extension of gun rights from the private home into the public sphere. What good is it to carry a gun in public if you are not also legally protected when using it in self-defense—or perceived self-defense? How are guns supposed to deter criminals if gun owners are legally hindered from wielding their weapons? Stand Your Ground removes these legal barriers so that people can better protect themselves.

But this also has social consequences. Thanks to Stand Your Ground, citizens must now fear their armed neighbors in addition to prospective criminals. What if someone who spies you walking down the street thinks you look suspicious? What if you become a target for would-be George Zimmermans? Or what if the man you argue with, or potentially insult or offend, even unintentionally, is armed and irascible—and the argument escalates?

The latter possibility was chillingly illustrated in a movie theater in Tampa last year, when retired police captain Curtis Reeves shot and killed Chad Oulson after the two had argued, and Oulson threw popcorn in Reeves’ face. Reeves initially invoked Stand Your Ground, claiming he did not know if Oulson meant him bodily harm. Florida’s Stand Your Ground law protects gun owners if they so much as sense the threat of bodily harm. In the darkened movie theater, Reeves said he could not tell the nature of his assailant’s weapon—he didn’t know that Oulson was only throwing popcorn. In a Stand Your Ground society, it makes sense to suspect your neighbor—and fear the worst.

The gun-rights movement claims it is a staunch defender of the peace, contributing to and bolstering law and order. As gun rights are currently advanced, nothing could be further from the truth.

Increasingly, gun-rights advocates like National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre offer dystopian warnings to make their case. In November, LaPierre wrote a letter to NRA members—fittingly entitled “Is Chaos at our Door?”—outlining this vision. “[T]he world that surrounds us is growing more dangerous all the time,” he warned. “Whether it’s enemy state actors, foreign terrorists, Mexican drug cartels or domestic criminals, the threats Americans face are massive—and growing.” He invoked massive terrorist attacks like those in Mumbai in 2008 or Kenya in 2013, hordes of armed and violent gangs that “are embedded coast to coast,” and an influx of illegal immigrants with criminal backgrounds. LaPierre complained that the government had detained and then “intentionally released 36,000 illegal aliens” with criminal records. “Where all these released criminals went,” he wrote, “no one knows. But you can bet on this: They’re among us, embedded throughout our society. For all you know, you pass them in your car on your way to work.”

LaPierre’s argument for being armed boils down to this: Americans are on the verge of—or already sinking into—a state of anarchy, where it is each man for himself. In that state, “the government can’t—or won’t—protect you…Only you can protect you,” he warns.

Even if most gun owners don’t share LaPierre’s fears, the gun-rights movement may have helped make them seem more plausible. In addition to pushing Stand Your Ground laws, the NRA fought universal background checks. Their premise—that it will not stop hardened and determined criminals from accessing guns—ensured that criminals could have easy access to guns at gun shows or from unscrupulous arms dealers. What’s more, thanks to NRA pressure, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) is also greatly hindered from pursuing such dealers and stemming the flow of weapons to criminals. As Alan Berlow reported in Mother Jones, the agency is denied valuable information to track weapons purchases, since the FBI is required by law to destroy records of gun sales—the ones that do involve a background check—within 24 hours. Further, the ATF cannot follow up on missing or stolen guns from dealers, since the agency is prohibited from forcing dealers to conduct annual inventories of their merchandise. With NRA support, Congress has also imposed limits on ATF inspections and penalties of gun dealers, and “barred the use of ATF trace data in administrative proceedings such as those to revoke a dealer’s license.”

The cumulative effect of these efforts is a society where security must be upheld or enforced by individual gun owners, who could misperceive what justice demands in any given situation. Our police have a hard enough time with this task. Consider the controversies in Ferguson, Missouri, and Staten Island last year, where unarmed black men, implicated in minor crimes, died because police used excessive force. Police chiefs are generally critical of the profusion of privately held arms and laws that embolden gun owners to wield their weapons in public. Gun-rights advocates like to argue that ordinary citizens should be armed in public on the premise that they can halt shootings or crimes in progress. This argument is often summed up by LaPierre’s claim that “the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” If only the “bad guys with a gun” advertised themselves as such, or the “good guys with a gun” acted that way in all circumstances.

LaPierre’s Manichean universe, neatly divided between forces of good and evil, bears little resemblance to our messy real world. Consider the 2011 mass shooting in Tucson, where Jared Loughner shot Representative Gabrielle Giffords in the head at a constituent meeting outside a Tucson shopping center. After attacking the congresswoman, who survived her grievous injury, Loughner shot eighteen people and killed six. It turns out there was an armed citizen present at the shooting—and he drew his gun, ready to shoot the attacker. However, he identified the wrong man and nearly pulled the trigger on an innocent bystander. Luckily, he did not.

Again, after the shooting at the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in 2012, where James Holmes killed twelve people and injured seventy others, gun-rights advocates claimed more guns were the solution—more armed citizens—because they would have stopped the attack in progress. National Review columnist John Fund pointed out that Holmes specifically selected this movie theater, though it was hardly the closest one to his home, because it was the only one in the area that had a sign specifically forbidding customers to bring guns on the premises. Holmes knew this theater was a "gun-free zone," and the customers inside were sitting ducks.

And yet, it is hard to imagine how armed citizens might have made the situation any better. Holmes began his attack by throwing two tear gas canisters and releasing a barrage of bullets in a matter of seconds (one of his three weapons was a semi-automatic assault weapon with a 100-round drum magazine) into the packed theater. Armed citizens who leapt to their feet firing their own weapons would have been shooting at a target obscured by smoke and darkness in a crowded, frenzied room. They could have even contributed to the carnage and death toll. And who’s to say that another of LaPierre’s “good guys with a gun,” spying this armed citizen opening fire in the movie theater, wouldn’t have shot him down thinking he was a “bad guy”?

Another favorite gun rights saying is that “when seconds count, police are minutes away.” In other words, it’s better to have a gun on you, or an armed ‘good guy’ in the midst of a shooting, when police cannot arrive soon enough. But first responders arrived at the scene of the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting within three minutes of the first police radio broadcast of the attack. Police arrived on the scene at the Aurora movie theater 90 seconds after being called. How small ought that window be to satisfy gun-rights advocates? Perhaps it can’t be small enough. In their view, guns must be ever-present if society hopes to keep order. This logic implicitly undermines law enforcement’s role in society. The world is just too dangerous, it argues, and cops are outmanned and outgunned (again, thanks to the NRA’s efforts). Armed citizens are therefore needed to fill those gaps when cops are not present—no matter how small or short those gaps may be—in order to keep the peace.

In pushing this agenda, the gun-rights movement mistakenly urges supporters to think that public order rests upon overt shows of force. In a democracy, however, peace is founded on rule of law.

Rule of law is essential for maintaining the peace in civil society. It is also an act of faith: People presume and trust that everyone else around them will act lawfully and safely. For example, I must presume that the driver in front of me will obey the laws of the road; I must also presume that he will not, Mad Max- style, swerve around to aim a rifle at me and start firing. If people know others around them are armed, they may grow suspicious of each other, restrict their dealings with one another, or, in some circumstances, not deal with them at all. An over-armed society is a recipe for widespread mistrust and suspicion, with dire consequences for the vibrancy of civil society.

Gun-rights advocates typically consider themselves staunch conservatives. But it is worth reminding them that it is a bedrock principle of conservatism that a free society requires strong rule of law and that citizens must do all they can to ensure it and strengthen it. Milton Friedman argued that the duties and reach of government extend no further than articulating the law, making sure it is heeded, adjudicating differences between citizens, and prosecuting offenses against them. Beyond that, Friedman affirms, government should let the law and market do its work, with the compliance of free and rational citizens.

Rule of law can even help prevent government overreach. The conservative English political theorist Michael Oakeshott understood that rule of law is essential to realizing the conservative goal of small government. “[Government] by rule of law … is itself the emblem of that diffusion of power which it exists to promote,” he claimed, “and is therefore peculiarly appropriate to a free society. It is a method of government most economical in the use of power; it … leaves no room for arbitrariness; it encourages a tradition of resistance to the growth of dangerous concentrations of power which is far more effective than any promiscuous onslaught however crushing; it controls effectively without breaking the grand affirmative flow of things; and it gives a practical definition of the kind of limited but necessary service a society may expect from its government, restraining us from vain and dangerous expectations.”

But this clashes with gun-rights advocates’ worldview. They imagine some kind of libertarian paradise where government retreats—where law remains widely acknowledged and respected—and individual gun owners are free to enforce the law if and when they deem it necessary. But Oakeshott understands that an armed and potentially violent public only goads the government into action and force. Law enforcement knows that gun owners may use their weapons recklessly, and prepares itself accordingly. Oakeshott’s strongest point is that an over-armed society makes government bigger, more intrusive, and more aggressive in carrying out its vested duty of maintaining order. It goads government, and the law enforcement officials who work for it, towards arbitrary shows of power and force. In this way, too, the gun rights movement makes its wishes and warnings come true. The NRA says citizens must be armed to combat government tyranny. But an over-armed society ensures that government will be anything but restrained.

A common feature of the many police shootings perpetrated over the last year, and highlighted in the media during and after Ferguson, is that police now assume their suspects to be armed. Given the state of affairs the NRA has fostered, this may be a prudent and understandable assumption. But it also means police are instinctively cautious, hostile, and all too ready to use their weapons against ordinary citizens. In an over-armed society, we may also expect to see a steady uptick in the number of cases involving police brutality or excessive force. And then, as the NRA would have it, the government is most fully and clearly the people’s enemy, too.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: All (#0)

Gun-rights advocates’ (have a) worldview. ---

They imagine some kind of libertarian paradise where government retreats—where law remains widely acknowledged and respected—and individual gun owners are free to enforce the law if and when they deem it necessary.

Exactly.. We know that an armed society will be a safe society, one that lives by the rule of constitutional law. --- And that scofflaws will be quickly restrained by citizens, until they are turned over to law enforcement experts.

tpaine  posted on  2015-04-02   12:47:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#0) (Edited)

The latter possibility was chillingly illustrated in a movie theater in Tampa last year, when retired police captain Curtis Reeves shot and killed Chad Oulson after the two had argued, and Oulson threw popcorn in Reeves’ face. Reeves initially invoked Stand Your Ground, claiming he did not know if Oulson meant him bodily harm. Florida’s Stand Your Ground law protects gun owners if they so much as sense the threat of bodily harm. In the darkened movie theater, Reeves said he could not tell the nature of his assailant’s weapon—he didn’t know that Oulson was only throwing popcorn. In a Stand Your Ground society, it makes sense to suspect your neighbor—and fear the worst.

That would all be true and relevant except that Reeves has not filed for a Stand Your Ground hearing. (Interesting Florida has set up a website just for that case's documents.) And it is getting very late in the pre-trial process. They are supposed to file for a hearing 4 weeks before the trial but the judge has said he would have to consider it even mid-trial.

So far, no Stand Your Ground defense, just a standard self-defense case.

Similar to George Zimmerman's trial under Florida law. For all the yapping about Florida's Stand Your Ground law, Zimmerman did not use it in his defense and prevailed on classic self-defense grounds.

The Atlantic continues to be a nest of gungrabbing but the tone of their article indicates they know they have lost the great battle against guns that liberals waged over the last two decades so they are trying to make other arguments against gun ownership.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-02   13:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: TooConservative (#2)

So far, no Stand Your Ground defense, just a standard self-defense case.
Similar to George Zimmerman's trial under Florida law.

Amazing how the author could be so wrong (twice) about a fact easily found with a Google search.

When a liberal wants to drive home a point, he doesn't let truth get in the way.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-02   14:54:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: misterwhite (#3)

You notice how cagey he was, trying to create a false impression to bootstrap his argument.

You wouldn't get away with such assertions in a court of law but this is just an op-ed. And the Atlantic's readership isn't exactly a hotbed of NRA members so they'll take it uncritically.

Pieces like this are intended to shape the direction of public debate. This might as well be a DNC talking points memo.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-02   15:26:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: tpaine (#0)

What, no public opinion poll that shows 75% or more of the populace want to do away with guns??

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-04-02   17:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: TooConservative, tpaine (#2)

I see no possible application of the Florida Stand Your Ground law in Reeves. As you observe, Zimmerman was a straight up case of self-defense.

The 2014 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.013 Home protection; use or threatened use of deadly force; presumption of
fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of
death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or
threatening to use defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in
the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and
forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person
had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from
the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason
to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was
occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened has the
right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle,
such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for
protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no
contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is
otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person
against whom the defensive force is used or threatened; or
(c) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force is engaged in a
criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to
further a criminal activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened is a law
enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to
enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her
official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with
any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or
reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was
a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is attacked in his or her dwelling, residence, or vehicle has
no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and use or
threaten to use force, including deadly force, if he or she uses or threatens to
use force in accordance with s. 776.012(1) or (2) or s. 776.031(1) or (2).
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the
intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any
attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent,
mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed
to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or
permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is
designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27; s. 4, ch. 2014-195.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-04-02   18:43:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: nolu chan, CZ82, TooConservative, y'all (#6)

From the article: ---

How are guns supposed to deter criminals if gun owners are legally hindered from wielding their weapons?

The author apparently believes that citizens can be hindered, constitutionally, from using weapons for protection. -- Not true. -- The bearing of arms shall not be infringed.

Stand Your Ground removes these legal barriers so that people can better protect themselves.

SYG laws remove unconstitutional barriers.

But this also has social consequences. Thanks to Stand Your Ground, citizens must now fear their armed neighbors in addition to prospective criminals.

Sheer hype. Concealed carry experience shows no such 'fear'.

What if someone who spies you walking down the street thinks you look suspicious? What if you become a target for would-be George Zimmermans? Or what if the man you argue with, or potentially insult or offend, even unintentionally, is armed and irascible—and the argument escalates?

What if? -- When someone misuses their right to carry arms, they become criminals. What else?

tpaine  posted on  2015-04-02   19:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tpaine, CZ82, TooConservative (#7) (Edited)

The Zimmerman case showed that Stand Your Ground was not needed and that Florida's law on self-defense was more than adequate.

While the State bore the ultimate burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, defendant laid upon himself a requisite of producing evidence of the additional facts necessary for his defense of justification. But, with these additional facts, did he also incur a “burden of proof” identical to the State’s? That is, did he have to prove the additional facts for self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt? Or was he instead bound by some lesser standard—say, the greater weight of the evidence? Indeed, how about something even less onerous than that? Was he merely obligated to lay the additional facts before the jury, without any burden as to the strength of their probative value—other than they might be true?

The answer is this. No, he did not have to prove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. He did not have to prove even that his additional facts were more likely true than not. The real nature of his burden concerning his defense of justification is that his evidence of additional facts need merely leave the jury with a reasonable doubt about whether he was justified in using deadly force. Hence, if he wanted his self-defense to be considered, it was necessary to present evidence that his justification might be true. It would then be up to the jury to decide whether his evidence produced a reasonable doubt about his claim of self-defense.

Murray v. State of Florida, District Court of Appeal, Fourth District, State of Florida, Case 4D05-3691 (13 Sep 2006).

- - - - -

When self-defense is asserted, the defendant has the burden of producing enough evidence to establish a prima facie case demonstrating the justifiable use of force. Montijo v. State, 61 So. 3d 424, 427 (Fla. 5th DCA 2011); Fields v. State, 988 So. 2d 1185, 1188 (Fla. 5th DCA 2008); see Murray v. State, 937 So. 2d 277, 282 (Fla. 4th DCA 2006) (holding that law does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable). Once the defendant makes a prima facie showing of self-defense, the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense. Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188. The burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, including the burden of proving that the defendant did not act in self-defense, never shifts from the State to the defendant. Montijo, 61 So. 3d at 427; Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188; see Monsansky v. State, 33 So. 3d 756 (Fla. 1st DCA 2010) (explaining that defendant has burden to present sufficient evidence that he acted in self-defense in order to be entitled to jury instruction on issue, but presentation of such evidence does not change elements of offense at issue; rather, it merely requires state to present evidence that establishes beyond reasonable doubt that defendant did not act in self-defense); Murray, 937 So. 2d at 279 (explaining that defendant in trial for aggravated battery was not required to prove self-defense claim beyond reasonable doubt or by preponderance of evidence; rather, self-defense evidence needed merely leave jury with reasonable doubt about whether he was justified in using deadly force).

Fallwell v. State of Florida, District Court of Appeal, Fifth District, State of Florida, Case 5D10-2011 (27 Apr 2011).

- - - - -

Re the initial burden on the defendant when asserting self-defense.

The defendant has the burden of presenting sufficient evidence that he acted in self-defense in order to be entitled to a jury instruction on the issue. But the presentation of such evidence does not change the elements of the offense at issue; rather, it merely requires the state to present evidence that establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.

Mosansky v. State of Florida, District Court of Appeal, First District, State of Florida, Case 1D09-3312, (20 Apr 2010).

nolu chan  posted on  2015-04-03   22:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: nolu chan (#8)

Nice summary with bolding. Probably as clear as the instructions the judge gave the Zimmerman jury for their deliberations.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-04   8:15:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: tpaine (#7)

The author apparently believes that citizens can be hindered, constitutionally, from using weapons for protection. -- Not true. -- The bearing of arms shall not be infringed.

I think the author is making a set of DNC talking points for liberals/Lefties to use in trying to hold the anti-gun line in debates as the CCW/RKBA revolution sweeps over their states.

I don't actually see much in the article that is going to sway the courts or the public. The article is mostly an erudite sermon, preached to the faithful.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-04   8:18:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: nolu chan, TooConservative, y'all (#8)

The Zimmerman case showed that Stand Your Ground was not needed and that Florida's law on self-defense was more than adequate.

The author apparently believes that citizens can be hindered, constitutionally, from using weapons for protection. -- Not true. -- The bearing of arms shall not be infringed.

Stand Your Ground laws remove these unconstitutional, supposedly 'legal' barriers, if, (big IF) they're needed..

Thanks for your replies....

tpaine  posted on  2015-04-04   8:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tpaine (#11)

Stand Your Ground laws remove these unconstitutional, supposedly 'legal' barriers, if, (big IF) they're needed..

I'd say SYG protects you after using your gun.

Having the right to carry or even own a gun is another issue.

NRA should be working to harmonize the SYG and RKBA laws among the States so true reciprocity becomes more possible, at least in gun-friendly Red states.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-04   8:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: tpaine, TooConservative (#11)

The author apparently believes that citizens can be hindered, constitutionally, from using weapons for protection.

The SYG law essentially codifies the castle doctrine which applies to protecting oneself in one's home. There is no duty to retreat as is required in some jurisdictions.

The self-defense law in Florida is very protective all by itself.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-04-05   0:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: tpaine (#0)

How Gun Rights Harm the Rule of Law

More likely, they hobble the obstructive gyrations and intricacies of lawyers and judges.

rlk  posted on  2015-04-05   2:30:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com