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Title: Why Won't Rand Paul and Chris Christie Take a Position on Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/ ... -indiana-religious-freedom-law
Published: Apr 2, 2015
Author: Danny Vinik
Post Date: 2015-04-02 07:30:35 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 6243
Comments: 46

Nearly a week since Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), igniting a nationwide debate about whether the controversial law invites discrimination based on sexual orientation, most potential Republican presidential candidates have taken the opportunity to bolster their conservative credentials.

"Governor Pence has done the right thing," said former Florida Governor Jeb Bush on Monday.

“I want to commend Governor Mike Pence for his support of religious freedom, especially in the face of fierce opposition,” Texas Senator Ted Cruz said in a written statement. “Governor Pence is holding the line to protect religious liberty in the Hoosier State. Indiana is giving voice to millions of courageous conservatives across this country who are deeply concerned about the ongoing attacks upon our personal liberties. I’m proud to stand with Mike, and I urge Americans to do the same."

Ben Carson, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, Florida Senator Marco Rubio, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum, former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, and former Texas Governor Rick Perry all expressed their support for Pence and Indiana's RFRA law. (Meanwhile, Democrats Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley have come out against it.)

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But two likely 2016 candidates have been notably absent from this debate: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and Kentucky Senator Rand Paul. What do they think about the law, and why have they been so quiet on the issue?

Samantha Smith, the communications director for Christie’s Leadership Matters for America PAC, did not return a request for comment on Wednesday morning. (I'll update this if I hear back.) Christie’s past statements offer little light on where he will fall on the issue, but he has been shifting to the right on social issues in advance of the Republican primary. On Tuesday, he announced his support for a 20-week abortion ban. Given Christie’s shaky position within the party, and the fact that the rest of the field supports Indiana’s law, it would be very surprising if he joined with liberals in opposing it.

As for Paul, Sergio Gor, the communications director of RandPAC, wrote in an email, “The Senator is out of pocket with family this week and has not weighed in at this time.”

It makes sense that Paul is unplugging with his family this week: He's expected to announce his presidential bid on April 7, the beginning of a long, grueling journey—and a victory would mean that these are his last moments of real privacy for a very long time. Could anyone blame him if he wanted to spend a few quiet days with his family? I couldn’t.

But it also seems a bit convenient that Paul is entirely unreachable while the controversy swirls. If his campaign launch is just six days away, surely Paul and his staff are in close communication. How long does it take to send a tweet or tell your staff to craft a statement?

It will be interesting to see how Paul reacts to the law—as he'll be forced to do, probably no later than April 7—in light of his libertarian credentials. If he stuck true to them, not only would he support the law but also support the right of Indiana’s businesses to discriminate against LGBT people, something that the rest of the Republican field opposes. (They just disagree with liberals about whether Indiana’s law would allow discrimination.)

But if recent history is any guide, don’t expect Paul to stick true to his libertarian roots. Almost whenever he has faced a choice between traditional libertarian positions and mainstream Republican positions, he has chosen the latter in hope of winning the GOP nomination. Just recently, for instance, he called for more defense spending after saying for years that the military was bloated and needed further cuts.

In fact, Paul has already reversed himself on whether private businesses should be allowed to exclude people from their establishments for any reason. “I think it’s a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant,” he told the Louisville Courier-Journal in 2010. “But, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership.” He continued, “In a free society, we will tolerate boorish people, who have abhorrent behavior, but if we're civilized people, we publicly criticize that, and don't belong to those groups, or don't associate with those people.” Just a few years later, as that position became controversial, Paul (dishonestly) said that he never held the libertarian position to begin with.

So while it is taking a while for Paul to give his position, it isn’t hard to deduce where he’ll eventually fall. Maybe he’s just waiting until the spotlight on Indiana dies down a bit, so that his libertarian supporters are less aware when he adopts the party line. But if that's his plan, it's not very presidential.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 25.

#2. To: A K A Stone (#0)

In fact, Paul has already reversed himself on whether private businesses should be allowed to exclude people from their establishments for any reason.

I agree with Paul. People cannot exclude people from their business establishments for any reason.

They can't exclude people just because those people are black.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02   7:32:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13, Vicomte13, Too Conservative, Redleghunter (#2)

They can't exclude people just because those people are black.

and that's a strawman. No law in the country allows any business to discriminate because of race. A business would not be able to exclude service to gays either under the terms of the state and Federal laws . What they would be allowed to do is to use their religious conscious and not be a part,or provide service to a 'relgious ' ceremony they find objectionable .

This is such a phony issue . Most Christian businesses would never even inquire about their customer's personal lives . They just don't want to be associated with a ceremony they find religiously objectionable(freedom of association is also a 1st amendment right) . I don't see gays (except the gay Mafia )making a big outcry because a fundamental Christian won't provide services to their "wedding" . Even when a caterer ,bakery ,florist ,band ,dj etc refuses ,do you think they would find any difficulty finding an alternative ? And for that matter ,why would you trust eating something from someone who doesn't want to bake or cook for you ? It's nuts. You have Corporate American businesses like Apple making a grandstand on the issue while setting up shop in Saudi Arabia . Hello ! What happens to gays there ? All these other companies that are racing to be the most pc did not say a thing when 19 other states passes similar laws .

That idiot Governor in Connecticut ,Dan Malloy ,got all sanctimonious . I guess he never read his own state's law ,which if anything is more restrictive than Indiana's .

Christie and Paul should listen to this from Ted Cruz . This is how to respond. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFbWTt6JyEc#t=148

tomder55  posted on  2015-04-02   9:25:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: tomder55 (#10)

Amen.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-02   9:51:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: redleghunter, tomder55 (#11)

I agree completely that businesses should not have to perform services that are against the deeply-held religious beliefs of their owners. It's the same thing with conscientious objection in the military.

Obviously Churches should not be required to rent out halls for gay weddings, and bakers shouldn't have to bake cakes with two grooms in the frosting.

But bakers cannot refuse to bake cakes for a black groom and a white bride. Because history.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02   11:01:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Vicomte13 (#16)

I agree completely that businesses should not have to perform services that are against the deeply-held religious beliefs of their owners. It's the same thing with conscientious objection in the military.

Obviously Churches should not be required to rent out halls for gay weddings, and bakers shouldn't have to bake cakes with two grooms in the frosting.

But bakers cannot refuse to bake cakes for a black groom and a white bride. Because history.

and that's why the 'civil right's ' angle is flawed in this debate . It is not about color . As they say ,it's settled law that there cannot be discrimination due to race.

I wonder if those opposed to this law would be cool with a gay baker refusing to bake a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church anti-gay gathering ?

tomder55  posted on  2015-04-02   12:31:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 25.

#27. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#25)

I did not see your response #17 before the above reply. Well done ! I see your point .

tomder55  posted on  2015-04-02 12:44:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: tomder55 (#25)

and that's why the 'civil right's ' angle is flawed in this debate .

The civil rights angle is why the other guys win in the end.

The civil rights angle is why Christians will be forced to serve gays.

Gays are a minority that has been discriminated against, and they click right in as a perfect substitute for "blacks" in all of the 14th Amendment jurisprudence.

The civil rights angle, the 14th Amendment, is WHY the Federal courts, and state courts too, are mowing down state constitutions all over the country. The 14th Amendment trumps state constitutions, and trump economic rights. Equal protection under the law trumps EVERYTHING, and those who wield it are predestined to win any fight that is fought on that ground.

Which is why those who care about religious freedom need to NOT fight on THAT ground. That's why they need to take the FIRST Amendment, religious rights, and put them against the 14th, to force a compromise line.

That is where the battle has to be fought. In fact, that is the only POSSIBLE avenue of victory.

Assertions that business owners have transcendent rights to do as they please are stupid. They have no such rights. THey once did, but they lost them all with Heart of Atlanta. If something is a civil rights/equal protection matter, then economic interests are subordinated to it. Period.

You realize that, which is why you want to fight the law on religious grounds/First Amendment grounds. And you're right. Those ARE the grounds to fight.

I'm not arguing with you. The people I'm arguing with are the conservatives who are shooting into a circle by proclaiming the sanctity of rights that DO NOT EXIST. Namely, the alleged "right" of business owners to serve or not serve whomever they please, for whatever reason or no reason, because they are business owners and it's their business.

This right does not exist anywhere in America. It ceased to exist because of the Civil Rights wars, and Heart of Atlanta put a stake through its heart.

There is no absolute right to participate in the stream of commerce. The stream of commerce is a regulated space, and the Federal government sets the rules for participation.

Lots of conservatives don't like that. I don't particularly like it either. But that IS the way it is, and the REASON it is that way - the reason the country is structured the way it is with an overmighty federal government, is BECAUSE of slavery, and BECAUSE OF the oppression of blacks. The ONLY WAY to break the power of the states and individuals to oppress them was to massively expand federal power, use guns, and then keep expending it until virtually everything was regulated specifically to punish and publicly destroy anybody who doesn't treat blacks as equals. That's the way it is. And that's WHY.

A million people died in that fight, and the victors haven't forgotten that any more than the defeated have.

In THIS fight, that gays have latched onto the rights structure erected to ensure equality for blacks, and that structure is SO POWERFUL that it cannot be beaten with anything other than something that people hold AS dear. The Ninth and Tenth Amendments, for example, will not defeat the 14th, because there is no history of those Amendments having aroused such passion or moving so many people.

Only the First Amendment can stand as something that has equal power both in the general public mind AND in the mind of the LEFT and the CENTER as the Fourteenth. The Courts will respect and listen to a First Amendment argument. No court in America is ever going to disregard the 14th Amendment in favor of the Ninth, or the Tenth, or the Second. The 14th Amendment was the vehicle for obtaining freedom and a government structure, and it is central to our legal structure. Only the First has equal power.

Which is why the argument to limit the reach of the 14th Amendment cannot be won except on 1st Amendment grounds, and then only partially.

It will never be the case that a for-profit business chain is going to be able to discriminate against gays. Holiday Inn is not going to be able to claim a "religious exemption" from renting out halls to gay wedding parties EVEN IF the shares are bought out by a consortium of Baptists and they have a shareholder vote to establish that the company's values are such that they don't rent to gays. That interest, of passive shareholders in a company, is too attenuated to overcome a 14th Amendment equal protection argument.

But the First Amendment CAN overcome the requirement that a devout couple who run a bed and breakfast have to cater overnight in their house to a gay couple.

However, the general claim that it's THEIR house and THEIR business, and they don't have to accept those clients - THAT is a guaranteed fail. It's their house, but they have put it in the stream of commerce to make money, and they are only permitted to make money in commerce if they obey all of the government rules. They don't have the right to open their house as a B&B and earn money from it if they do not obey all the rules. Those rules include equal rights and equal protection. So, if they government says they have to take gays, they either take gays or are put out of business. 14th Amendment logic.

Only the First: these are religious people, it's their HOUSE, it's TOO MUCH of an imposition on them, for they will feel intense personal anguish - THAT argument CAN prevail, because of the power of the First Amendment.

But it can never prevail for a large corporation because the shareholders have a religious sense. They are too far from direct contact for their ownership rights to trump the 14th.

That's how the courts would come out, if pressed to it.

But if conservatives refuse to focus on the religious aspect, and instead take their stand, as they have on this site, on absolute liberty of business owners. And then start trashing folks like me as socialists, fascists and statists because we say, truly, that dog don't hunt. Well, then conservatives are buying themselves another Appomattox moment.

That battle cannot be won, because of history.

And that's the battle that most people here seem to want to fight. YOU don't. YOU see it. But THEY do not see it. THEY think I'm their enemy because I tell them truly that they are not the absolute ruler of the businesses they own - because they are not and never will be - and because I tell them, again truly, that the REASON that businessmen lost their sovereignty over their businesses is because they chose to discriminate against blacks.

When they then start mocking blacks and civil rights and all of that, they reveal themselves as neo-Confederates. And guess what: if the religious freedom argument is co-opted by neo-Confederates, it is LOST, and the order will come down for bakers to make cakes for gays, and eventually, for Catholic hospitals to perform abortions.

The fight has to be fought properly, and our own allies are choosing to fight it on grounds that are obnoxious.

Now, it is true, I am a statist, not a Republican conservative. And the bulk of Americans are statists: they will never tolerate dismantling Social Security or Unemployment insuranace or Medicare.

But as a statist who is a Catholic, I DO see that true religion has to trump the state on core moral matters (as long as the religion is Christian, or the tenets of the non-Christian religion comport with something that is acceptable to Christianity). (In other words, no, the state cannot force Catholic hospitals to perform abortions, but yes, the state can punish drug use in religious rituals, and can limit marriage to one woman, not four.) This is because the Divine State trumps the Civil State.

But if I don't hear RELIGIOUS arguments for protecting Christian business owners, but hear neo-Confederate arguments about the absolute sovereignty of business owners to discriminate against whomever they place - AND THAT IS WHAT I AM MOSTLY HEARING ON THIS SITE - well, then I will side with the gays. The 14th Amendment is important. Christianity is MORE important, but "Business owners have absolute rights' is not a Christian argument. Christ never gave people absolute rights to do ANYTHING. It's a neo-Confederate argument, and if they rise up again, they have to be put down again.

Individuals are not sovereign. They have rights under God that trump the state's authority, yes, but those rights are clearly identifiable in the Christian religion, and absolute right to discriminate in business ain't one of them.

Mostly, my continuous argumentation on this subject is due to frustration and rising anger at the neo-Confederates. Do people not see and understand that THOSE tired old stupid arguments always lose? Do they WANT to lose, again? They always lose. They lose because nobody in his right mind really thinks that anybody can ever have the right to do just whatever the hell he wants, wherever, because it's HIS...whatever - house, land, business.

People who can do whatever, head straight to intolerable evils, and people with common sense won't stand for it.

It is not common sensical for gays to be able to impose involuntary servitude in catering to them from Christians. That's bad. But the antidote is: It's a violation of the Freedom of Religion clause of the First Amendment. THAT can win.

That's it's a violation of the principle that all business owners are sovereigns who have the plenary right to decide whom to serve or not, at all times without limit. That's just trying to go back to the plantation, and plantations are museums, like the Louvre and Versailles. The age of masters and lords of the manor is over. It's not going to be permitted to spring up again. Because it's bad.

I wish people would SEE THAT. It's important SO THAT we can avoid the collision between the government and the Catholic Church over abortion in Catholic hospitals. That is really what is at stake at the bottom of this. If bakers have to bake cakes for gays, irrespective of their religious objections, then Catholic hospitals are going to be told they have to perform abortions. And then I am going to have to uphold my allegiance to the Church over my allegiance to the government. And many Catholics will do otherwise, and darkness will fall again.

That's the ultimate battle. I'd prefer to defeat the charge before it gets anywhere near to that.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02 14:34:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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