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Title: Why Won't Rand Paul and Chris Christie Take a Position on Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/ ... -indiana-religious-freedom-law
Published: Apr 2, 2015
Author: Danny Vinik
Post Date: 2015-04-02 07:30:35 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 6302
Comments: 46

Nearly a week since Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), igniting a nationwide debate about whether the controversial law invites discrimination based on sexual orientation, most potential Republican presidential candidates have taken the opportunity to bolster their conservative credentials.

"Governor Pence has done the right thing," said former Florida Governor Jeb Bush on Monday.

“I want to commend Governor Mike Pence for his support of religious freedom, especially in the face of fierce opposition,” Texas Senator Ted Cruz said in a written statement. “Governor Pence is holding the line to protect religious liberty in the Hoosier State. Indiana is giving voice to millions of courageous conservatives across this country who are deeply concerned about the ongoing attacks upon our personal liberties. I’m proud to stand with Mike, and I urge Americans to do the same."

Ben Carson, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, Florida Senator Marco Rubio, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum, former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, and former Texas Governor Rick Perry all expressed their support for Pence and Indiana's RFRA law. (Meanwhile, Democrats Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley have come out against it.)

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But two likely 2016 candidates have been notably absent from this debate: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and Kentucky Senator Rand Paul. What do they think about the law, and why have they been so quiet on the issue?

Samantha Smith, the communications director for Christie’s Leadership Matters for America PAC, did not return a request for comment on Wednesday morning. (I'll update this if I hear back.) Christie’s past statements offer little light on where he will fall on the issue, but he has been shifting to the right on social issues in advance of the Republican primary. On Tuesday, he announced his support for a 20-week abortion ban. Given Christie’s shaky position within the party, and the fact that the rest of the field supports Indiana’s law, it would be very surprising if he joined with liberals in opposing it.

As for Paul, Sergio Gor, the communications director of RandPAC, wrote in an email, “The Senator is out of pocket with family this week and has not weighed in at this time.”

It makes sense that Paul is unplugging with his family this week: He's expected to announce his presidential bid on April 7, the beginning of a long, grueling journey—and a victory would mean that these are his last moments of real privacy for a very long time. Could anyone blame him if he wanted to spend a few quiet days with his family? I couldn’t.

But it also seems a bit convenient that Paul is entirely unreachable while the controversy swirls. If his campaign launch is just six days away, surely Paul and his staff are in close communication. How long does it take to send a tweet or tell your staff to craft a statement?

It will be interesting to see how Paul reacts to the law—as he'll be forced to do, probably no later than April 7—in light of his libertarian credentials. If he stuck true to them, not only would he support the law but also support the right of Indiana’s businesses to discriminate against LGBT people, something that the rest of the Republican field opposes. (They just disagree with liberals about whether Indiana’s law would allow discrimination.)

But if recent history is any guide, don’t expect Paul to stick true to his libertarian roots. Almost whenever he has faced a choice between traditional libertarian positions and mainstream Republican positions, he has chosen the latter in hope of winning the GOP nomination. Just recently, for instance, he called for more defense spending after saying for years that the military was bloated and needed further cuts.

In fact, Paul has already reversed himself on whether private businesses should be allowed to exclude people from their establishments for any reason. “I think it’s a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant,” he told the Louisville Courier-Journal in 2010. “But, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership.” He continued, “In a free society, we will tolerate boorish people, who have abhorrent behavior, but if we're civilized people, we publicly criticize that, and don't belong to those groups, or don't associate with those people.” Just a few years later, as that position became controversial, Paul (dishonestly) said that he never held the libertarian position to begin with.

So while it is taking a while for Paul to give his position, it isn’t hard to deduce where he’ll eventually fall. Maybe he’s just waiting until the spotlight on Indiana dies down a bit, so that his libertarian supporters are less aware when he adopts the party line. But if that's his plan, it's not very presidential.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 17.

#2. To: A K A Stone (#0)

In fact, Paul has already reversed himself on whether private businesses should be allowed to exclude people from their establishments for any reason.

I agree with Paul. People cannot exclude people from their business establishments for any reason.

They can't exclude people just because those people are black.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02   7:32:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13, Vicomte13, Too Conservative, Redleghunter (#2)

They can't exclude people just because those people are black.

and that's a strawman. No law in the country allows any business to discriminate because of race. A business would not be able to exclude service to gays either under the terms of the state and Federal laws . What they would be allowed to do is to use their religious conscious and not be a part,or provide service to a 'relgious ' ceremony they find objectionable .

This is such a phony issue . Most Christian businesses would never even inquire about their customer's personal lives . They just don't want to be associated with a ceremony they find religiously objectionable(freedom of association is also a 1st amendment right) . I don't see gays (except the gay Mafia )making a big outcry because a fundamental Christian won't provide services to their "wedding" . Even when a caterer ,bakery ,florist ,band ,dj etc refuses ,do you think they would find any difficulty finding an alternative ? And for that matter ,why would you trust eating something from someone who doesn't want to bake or cook for you ? It's nuts. You have Corporate American businesses like Apple making a grandstand on the issue while setting up shop in Saudi Arabia . Hello ! What happens to gays there ? All these other companies that are racing to be the most pc did not say a thing when 19 other states passes similar laws .

That idiot Governor in Connecticut ,Dan Malloy ,got all sanctimonious . I guess he never read his own state's law ,which if anything is more restrictive than Indiana's .

Christie and Paul should listen to this from Ted Cruz . This is how to respond. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFbWTt6JyEc#t=148

tomder55  posted on  2015-04-02   9:25:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tomder55 (#10) (Edited)

and that's a strawman...This is such a phony issue

It is neither a straw man nor a phony issue. The issue that CAUSED businesses to lose their absolute right to determine their customers was black exclusion, not 100 years ago, but within our lifetimes.

So, if folks like you would say "Businesses can exclude whomever they please, EXCEPT Blacks of course, because of the history of civil rights", then I'd say fine. But ignoring the historical issue and demanding the removal of the concessions for black equality won by oceans of blood won't work.

Businesses should be able to refuse to perform services for customers, but not to black customers. Because history.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02   10:22:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#12) (Edited)

Businesses should be able to refuse to perform services for customers, but not to black customers. Because history.

Businesses cannot use race as a criteria for denying service PERIOD . Jim Crow laws were always unconstitutional after the 14th Amendment despite the flawed Plessy decision.

But this is not an issue of race . It IS an issue of religious freedom.

tomder55  posted on  2015-04-02   10:48:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: tomder55, redleghunter (#14)

Jim Crow laws were always unconstitutional after the 14th Amendment despite the flawed Plessy decision.

But this is not an issue of race . It IS an issue of religious freedom.

The issue in the public eye right now, yes.

But remember, the gays are pressing this as an extension of 14th Amendment jurisprudence, and they're winning in almost all of the courts everywhere.

And IF the gay marriage/gay rights issue is "just like the blacks", then they win.

Highlighting religion is the way that the issue can be made NOT just like the blacks, for there is no defensible Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other real religion argument against equality for blacks, but there IS a bar in virtually all traditional religions against homosexual activity.

So, one can legitimately claim that performing services for gay marriage really IS offensive to the legitimate moral sense of a legitimate religion. One never could claim a true religious basis for objecting to black equality.

That's why religion is a winner on this argument.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE ARGUMENT THAT PEOPLE ON THIS WEBSITE HAVE BEEN HAVING WITH ME.

No, THEY have taken a very strong, belligerent "Business owners have the right to exclude service to WHOMEVER they please, for ANY reason or for NO reason."

And I cannot accept that argument. It isn't LEGALLY true, of course, but beyond that, it is not morally right either. And the REASON that Business owners CANNOT HAVE plenary liberty is BECAUSE this "liberty" was, IN FACT, historically used explicitly to oppress blacks.

So, on the issue before the public, I agree completely with you on the religious exemption issue, and I think that's the way to fight it.

BUT, the black issue is NOT a strawman, because there are a large number of conservatives (and a very large number on this site) who DO NOT RECOGNIZE the 14th Amendment limitation on business owners discretion.

Some HAVE argued that the 14th Amendment applies to government, not individuals, and that INDIVIDUAL business owners have the absolute right to refuse to serve ANYBODY. They won't write "including blacks", but that's what "anybody" means.

And I am calling out this particular "libertarian" stance, because it is DISASTROUS. It is disastrous because it guarantees failure.

American businesses, PARTICULARLY in the Southern, politically conservative regions of the country, collectively used their private offices to refuse to hire blacks or to serve them.

They did it. And to stop that, specific legislation was passed and enforced that said that no, private business owners DO NOT have the right, in their own private businesses, to refuse to serve or hire blacks. It's illegal. The Supreme Court hung this on the Commerce Clause SO THAT private activity could be FULLY regulated.

That's all within yours and my lifetime.

So when some conservative who has taken the "plenary rights" position, right here on this board, to me directly, then says "tough shit about the Blacks - slavery ended in 1865", well, that's what I'm talking about. That dog don't hunt. And it don't hunt for the REASON I am keying upon.

Businessmen's rights to do as they please were severely curtailed BECAUSE OF the oppression of the blacks.

To continue to argue that they have the right to do as they please, and screw the blacks anyway because of 1865, well, that sounds to me like a Rebel Yell. It sounds to me like a stealth way to regain lost ground.

And I'd rather bakers go out of business than concede one inch to the Confederates on black rights, ever. That war was fought and lost twice, and if every argument is moved to THAT battlefield, then it's going to be lost again.

In short: if you want to win on religious rights, then you cannot take the position that business owners have the right to do as they please.

No, they don't. They LOST those rights because of the Civil War - their slaves were taken, and because of the Civil Rights movement - their right to exclude blacks was taken.

And that PRECEDENT having been set, the same laws CAN be used to impose gays on them.

If you want to fight THAT abomination, and I do, then concede that business owners' rights ARE limited by law, and that the law, and not their liberty, decides who they have to serve.

That takes the Blacks and segregation and the Civil War off the table.

The PRESUMPTION is that they have to serve whoever comes in the door...which means that hotel chains can't be demanding marriage licenses to rent rooms to couples also, and have to rent to gays.

If there's to be an EXCEPTION to the: open your doors, serve everybody, then it has to be based on SOMETHING. And that something is religion. That's good.

To argue that business owners have plenary rights because it's their business means you lose. It's false. They lost those rights in the Civil War and 1964 and afterwards. They're never getting those rights back BECAUSE OF the Civil War and 1964.

So if we stay on the battleground of reality, then there's plenty of allies to the idea that businesses CAN refuse to do what their owners religions oppose. No religion permits discrimination again Blacks or Hispanics, so THAT issue is defused. The issue is narrowed to a battlefield, and the battle can be won.

"Business owners uber alles" is "The South will rise again". Which means "And the South will be put down yet again." We've seen this movie before. The Stars and Bars lose every single time.

And if they are raised on this issue, subtly, by asserting business rights that do not in fact exist anymore (BECAUSE OF the Civil War and Segregation), then the South loses again, and bakers will end up baking cakes for gays even it morally repels them...and Catholic hospitals will provide abortions or close their doors.

The fight has to be fought on the correct turf, and plenary business owners right is an imaginary turf.

Lots of people HERE take that stance. It is a prescription for sure defeat. That's why I fight the way I fight: I am facing down unreality.

You seem realistic. And we seem to be allies on the ISSUE, so we shouldn't fight.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-02   11:24:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 17.

#20. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

So, one can legitimately claim that performing services for gay marriage really IS offensive to the legitimate moral sense of a legitimate religion. One never could claim a true religious basis for objecting to black equality.

That's why religion is a winner on this argument.

Thank you for clarifying. You are having three different discussions here and somehow some of us are talking past each other.

I agree with your statements quoted above.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-02 11:50:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 17.

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