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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In International News See other International News Articles Title: Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France (Terrorism?) Source: nytimes.com/ URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/w ... 6E65&gwt=pay&assetType=nyt_now Published: Mar 25, 2015 Author: NICOLA CLARK and DAN BILEFSKY Post Date: 2015-03-25 19:53:14 by Pericles Keywords: None Views: 12940 Comments: 57 Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before France Crash By NICOLA CLARK and DAN BILEFSKY 21 minutes ago As officials struggled to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed, an investigator said evidence indicated that one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in. Click for Full Text! Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: Pericles (#0) mobile.nytimes.com Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France PARIS — As officials struggled Wednesday to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed in relatively clear skies, an investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in. A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter. “The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.” He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.” While the audio seemed to give some insight into the circumstances leading up to the Germanwings crash, it also left many questions unanswered. "We don’t know yet the reason why one of the guys went out,” said the official, who requested anonymity because the investigation is continuing. "But what is sure is that at the very end of the flight, the other pilot is alone and does not open the door." The data from the voice recorder seems only to deepen the mystery surrounding the crash and provides no indication of the condition or activity of the pilot who remained in the cockpit. The descent from 38,000 feet over about 10 minutes was alarming but still gradual enough to indicate that the twin-engine Airbus A320 had not been damaged catastrophically . At no point during the descent was there any communication from the cockpit to air traffic controllers or any other signal of an emergency. When the plane plowed into craggy mountains northeast of Nice, it was traveling with enough speed that it was all but pulverized, killing the 144 passengers and crew of six and leaving behind almost no apparent clues about what caused the crash. The French aviation authorities have made public very little, officially, about the nature of the information that has been recovered from the audio recording, and it was not clear whether it was partial or complete. France’s Bureau of Investigations and Analyses confirmed only that human voices and other cockpit sounds had been detected and would be subjected to detailed analysis. Asked about the new evidence revealed in the cockpit recordings, Martine del Bono, a bureau spokeswoman, declined to comment. "Our teams continue to work on analyzing the CVR,” she said, referring to the cockpit voice recorder. "As soon as we have accurate information we intend to hold a press conference.” Meanwhile, prosecutors in Marseille, who have been charged with a separate criminal inquiry into the crash, could not immediately be reached for comment. Brice Robin, the Marseille prosecutor, was due to meet Thursday morning with the families of the crash victims. Video | Investigator: Audio Retrieved From Plane Rémi Jouty, director of France’s Bureau of Investigation and Analysis, confirmed that audio of voices had been recovered from the black box in the crash of the Germanwings plane in the French Alps. At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact. The flight’s trajectory ahead of the crash also left many unanswered questions. Rémi Jouty, the director of the French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis, said at a news conference that the plane took off at around 10 a.m. local time from Barcelona and that the last message sent from the pilot to air traffic controllers had been at 10:30 a.m., which indicated that the plane was proceeding on course. But minutes later, the plane inexplicably began to descend, Mr. Jouty said. At 10:40 and 47 seconds, the plane reported its last radar position, at an altitude of 6,175 feet. “The radar could follow the plane until the point of impact,” he said. Mr. Jouty said the plane slammed into a mountainside and disintegrated, scattering debris over a wide area, and making it difficult to analyze what had happened. It often takes months or even years to determine the causes of plane crashes, but a little more than a year after the disappearance of a Malaysian airlines jetliner that has never been found, the loss of the Germanwings flight is shaping up to be particularly perplexing to investigators. One of the main questions outstanding is why the pilots did not communicate with air traffic controllers as the plane began its unusual descent, suggesting that either the pilots or the plane’s automated systems may have been trying to maintain control of the aircraft as it lost altitude. Among the theories that have been put forward by air safety analysts not involved in the investigation is the possibility that the pilots could have been incapacitated by a sudden event such as a fire or a drop in cabin pressure. A senior French official involved in the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that the lack of communication from the pilots during the plane’s descent was disturbing, and that the possibility that their silence was deliberate could not be ruled out. “I don’t like it,” said the French official, who cautioned that his initial analysis was based on the very limited information currently available. “To me, it seems very weird: this very long descent at normal speed without any communications, though the weather was absolutely clear.” This official said that the lack of communication suggested that the pilots might have been incapacitated as a result of an onboard failure such as a loss of cabin pressure, which could have deprived the crew members of oxygen. While all pilots are equipped with emergency oxygen masks, the pilots would first have to be aware that a depressurization had occurred, the official said. “If for any reason they don’t detect the problem in time, they would black out,” the official said. “So far, we don’t have any evidence that points clearly to a technical explanation,” the official said. “So we have to consider the possibility of deliberate human responsibility.” Mr. Jouty said it was far too early in the investigation to speculate about possible causes. “At this moment I have no beginning of a scenario,” Mr. Jouty said. However, he said there was not yet any evidence available that would support either a theory of a depressurization or of a midair explosion Speaking on the French radio station RTL, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Wednesday morning that terrorism was not a likely “hypothesis at the moment,” but that no theories had been definitively excluded. Mr. Cazeneuve said the size of the area over which debris was scattered suggested that the aircraft had not exploded in the air but rather had disintegrated on impact. Lufthansa, the parent company of Germanwings, has characterized the crash as an accident. The airline has not disclosed the identities of the pilots, except to say that the captain was a 10-year veteran with more than 6,000 hours of flying time in A320s. The French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis, which is leading the technical inquiry into the crash, sent seven investigators to the crash site on Tuesday. They have been joined by their counterparts from Germany, as well as by technical advisers from Airbus and CFM International, the manufacturer of the plane’s engines. Speaking on Europe 1 radio, Jean-Paul Troadec, a former director of the French air accident investigation bureau, said one of the big challenges for investigators would be to protect the debris at the crash site from any inadvertent damage. “We need to ensure that all the evidence is well preserved,” Mr. Troadec said, referring both to the pieces of the plane littered across the steep slopes as well as to the remains of the victims. The identification of the victims will most likely require matching DNA from the remains with samples from relatives. The recovery effort will be a laborious task, given the state of the wreckage, the difficult terrain and the fact that the crash site is so remote that it could be reached only by helicopter. Cabin depressurization, one of the possibilities speculated about on Wednesday, has occurred before, perhaps most notably in the crash of a Cypriot passenger plane in 2005 that killed all 121 people on board as it approached Athens. In that case, Helios Airways Flight 522, a slow loss of pressure rendered both pilots and all the passengers on the Boeing 737 jet unconscious for more than three-quarters of an hour before the aircraft ran out of fuel and slammed into a wooded gorge near the Greek capital. Investigators eventually determined that the primary cause of that crash was a series of human errors, including deficient maintenance checks on the ground and a failure by the pilots to heed emergency warning signals. Notice anything wrong? Send Silk feedback tpaine  posted on  2015-03-25   20:06:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: Pericles (#0) This is on Greta. http://www.tedcruz.org out damned spot  posted on  2015-03-25   20:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: tpaine (#1) Maybe one pilot went to the head and the other one locked the door and had a heart attack or major aneurysm. Ker-splatt. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-25   22:03:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: Pericles (#0) Was the pilot who locked himself in a guy named Mohammed? Come to think of it, I haven't seen the names of either pilot yet. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-25   22:33:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: TooConservative (#3) " the other one locked the door and had a heart attack or " Had his headphones on, grooving to the muslim call to prayer Si vis pacem, para bellum Stoner  posted on  2015-03-25   23:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: TooConservative (#3) Maybe one pilot went to the head and the other one locked the door and had a heart attack or major aneurysm. Ker-splatt. It's a 2 man cockpit crew? No flight engineers for Airbus A320-200? Pericles  posted on  2015-03-26   0:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: Stoner, TooConservative (#5) Looks like it was a depressed/suicidal German co-pilot - no evidence he was a Muslim convert. I am shocked it was a 2 man cockpit and that Europe did not have the occupancy rule. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-26   12:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: Pericles (#7) Looks like it was a depressed/suicidal German co-pilot - no evidence he was a Muslim convert. Stop trying to ruin this for us all.     : ) That said, this has to be such a heartbreaker for the families. An ordinary crash is just an accident, this is a mass murder of helpless people. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-26   13:03:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: TooConservative (#8) (Edited) That said, this has to be such a heartbreaker for the families. An ordinary crash is just an accident, this is a mass murder of helpless people. When people were talking about arming pilots after 9/11 - I pointed out pilots have had many notable cases of being bonkers and causing planes to crash on purpose - this did not sit well with Freepers who were trying to prove some 2nd amend point. This makes me question the need for pilots at all going forward. Last wee, Telsa's Musk stated in the future cars may drive themselves and humans will no longer be allowed to drive a 2 ton death machine that kills over 30K Americans a year and maims and injurs 3 times that many. We need an armed security guard on all planes. It can't add that much to ticket prices. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-26   13:08:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: Pericles (#9) We need an armed security guard on all planes. I'm not sure that would help unless the guard went to the cockpit to guard it when either pilot went to the restroom. Then you have three people with access to the cockpit. I don't look for any great immediate changes. There have been a handful of these incidents over the course of many years. Admittedly, I do still find MH370 very suspicious and one of the more credible explanations is that the pilots intended to kill everyone on the planes and make it hard to find the plane and bodies. So maybe there will be some strengthening of security measures. Given that the pilot in this German flight had tens years in and the suicidal first officer had a few years in, maybe the pilot could be given a passcode to open the door unconditionally (couldn't be blocked from the cockpit). But the five minute delay is designed to cover instances where the pilot or copilot gets taken hostage in the cabin and is forced physically to reveal his passcode. It does seem a little odd that this guy didn't seem to try to hit any ground target. He had to know the black boxes would almost certainly reveal what he had done. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-26   14:17:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: TooConservative (#10) (Edited) We need an emergency overide system on all planes in the coming years where by you break the glass, push the big red button and an autopilot takes over and the plane lands remotely in the nearest reachable airport while alerting authorities if we insist on having human pilots (it can be argued we can switch to autopilot and be safer). This is not scifi technology. This can be done now. This is the 6th time in 20 years a pilot (not counting 9/11) crashed their plane on purpose. That means every 3 years a purposefully crashed passenger plane by its legit pilot is statistically possible - especially as we expand the number of flights and open up the pilot profession to more people and diluting the high mental quality of the pilot pool. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-26   23:10:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Pericles (#11) We need an emergency overide system on all planes in the coming years where by you break the glass, push the big red button and an autopilot takes over and the plane lands remotely in the nearest reachable airport while alerting authorities if we insist on having human pilots (it can be argued we can switch to autopilot and be safer). This is not scifi technology. This can be done now. This is the 6th time in 20 years a pilot (not counting 9/11) crashed their plane on purpose. That means every 3 years a purposefully crashed passenger plane by its legit pilot is statistically possible - especially as we expand the number of flights and open up the pilot profession to more people and diluting the high mental quality of the pilot pool. Even so, consider the enormity of the numbers of flights versus the relative scarcity of your 6 kamikazes over 20 years. Gunnar Garfors: 100,000 Flights a Day, 06/2014 Air Transport Action Group (ATAG) released Aviation Benefits Beyond Borders, a detailed report on the aviation industry, in April 2014. The report shows that there are 37.4 million flights scheduled in 2014! That is up 2.7% from 2013. And it means an average of 102,465 flights per day. The number of daily flights has never before passed 100,000. In 2013 we saw "only" 99,726 flights per day. 102,465 flights sound like a lot, but keep in mind that there are 49,871 routes being served globally. Some are served many times a day, others only once every two weeks or even just a few times a year. There is no sign of a decline in passenger or flight numbers either. Flying in developing markets like China, India, the Middle East and Africa is growing fast. People are making more money and seem willing to spend it on travel. I don't blame them. Given the sheer numbers of flight crews and their increase over the years, we might as well ask how it is so relatively rare to have such problems. Listverse: 10 mysterious plane crashes Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   9:48:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: TooConservative (#10) (Edited) I'm not sure that would help unless the guard went to the cockpit to guard it when either pilot went to the restroom. Then you have three people with access to the cockpit. It's simple... same door. Same strength... but the lock is electrical combination, and uses a secret badge number given to just the pilot and copilot. This would keep towel heads out... and allow the pilot in to kick the dog shit out of (or shoot) the copilot, should the copilot be a selfish suicidal asshole that Hollywood celebrities love to feel sorry for at the Oscars. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-27   9:53:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: GrandIsland, Pericles (#13) It's simple... same door. Same strength... but the lock is electrical combination, and uses a secret badge number given to just the pilot and copilot. This would keep towel heads out... and allow the pilot in to kick the dog shit out of (or shoot) the copilot, should the copilot be a selfish suicidal asshole that Hollywood celebrities love to feel sorry for at the Oscars. I'd say that each pilot should present an encrypted credential to the airliner when they board. It would contain their encrypted password. They would use this while exiting the cockpit and to re-enter it. If only pilot is in the cockpit, any sudden descents (or setting the autopilot of a bad setting like 100ft altitude in the mountains) would unlock the door automatically. The idea being that if the airliner knows there is only one pilot and a sharp descent or other mischief is evident, unlocking the door would be the lesser danger for the aircraft. Some of these big planes can autoland, not all. If there are indications onboard that there is misconduct, maybe you could have a control tower send a signal to autoland. This might go wrong though as pilots are mostly required to deal with the unusual weather and crash avoidance situations that are the main reason to have pilots any more. There are no perfect answers. I do notice that European airlines are now moving to the American policy of requiring two people in the cockpit at all times. No more Lone Rangers in the EU's cockpits, it seems. At least not on passenger flights. We're #1! We're #1! Yay, America. LOL Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   10:07:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: GrandIsland, Pericles (#13) This would keep towel heads out... and allow the pilot in to kick the dog shit out of (or shoot) the copilot, should the copilot be a selfish suicidal asshole From the above Listverse link: Since the 1960s, five flights with the number “191" have ended in fatal crashes, including the worst aircraft disaster in American history: American Airlines Flight 191, which killed 273 people. Most recently, in 2012, JetBlue Airways Flight 191 made headlines after the pilot went crazy during the flight and started ranting about Jesus, terrorists, and 9/11. He was kicked out of the cockpit by the co-pilot and subdued by passengers. Later, he was put in a mental hospital. Puts another spin on cockpit security. If it was easily solved, they would have done it before now. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   10:10:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: TooConservative (#15) If it was easily solved, they would have done it before now. I doubt it. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-27   10:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: TooConservative (#12) Even so, consider the enormity of the numbers of flights versus the relative scarcity of your 6 kamikazes over 20 years. Gunnar Garfors: 100,000 Flights a Day, 06/2014 That just means the victim tallies are low - but the statistics do show it will happen. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   10:50:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: GrandIsland, TooConservative (#14) (Edited) The safeguard in the USA is enough - always have a replacement enter cockpit. I am kind of shocked flight engineers are gone now? It is just pilot and co- pilot. In a few years it will be pilot standby and computers will fly and land plane. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   10:52:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: TooConservative, redleghunter, CZ82, Bob Celeste, Vicomte13, Deckard, Soner, A K A Stone, etal (#15) From the above Listverse link: (snip) Most recently, in 2012, JetBlue Airways Flight 191 made headlines after the pilot went crazy during the flight and started ranting about Jesus, terrorists, and 9/11. Isn't that a supposed typical day at LF?? Is it just me, or was that pilot NOT "crazy," but actually quite sane? Ok...Which one of us was THE pilot at JetBlue?? Heh.... Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   10:53:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: Liberator (#19) Isn't that a supposed typical day at LF?? It would be if the pilot went crazy and was subdued by a passenger who happened to be a cop who pistolwhipped him unconcious and then handcuffed him and shot in the back five times, claiming self-defense. So, no, this incident was not quite up to our usual high LF standards. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   10:56:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: TooConservative (#20) The perp would have had it coming... Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   10:59:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: Pericles, Liberator (#21) Thank goodness Liberator showed up to calm down this thread which had really gotten out of hand.     : ) Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   11:00:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Pericles (#7) (Edited) Looks like it was a depressed/suicidal German co-pilot - no evidence he was a Muslim convert. Maybe he was BOTH. "No evidence"?? That wasn't the case yesterday. What's changed?? (I mean besides the usual and expected denials after the initial facts and revelations were leaked?) This German Muzzie convert and frequent Mosque visitor met ALL the clinical personal profiles and guidelines of a mass murderer, and was...A MUZZIE. I don't care how many media/"official" revisions of the initial reports are now buried, denied, or attributed as "false." Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: TooConservative (#20) It would be if the pilot went crazy and was subdued by a passenger who happened to be a cop who pistolwhipped him unconcious and then handcuffed him and shot in the back five times, claiming self-defense. So, no, this incident was not quite up to our usual high LF standards. I agree. Close, but no cigar. Tempting, but without the additional, obligatory shooting of dog, LF's highest criteria has NOT been met. :-( Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:05:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: TooConservative (#22) Heh... (Is it me, or has the usual insanity been kicked up a notch lately?) Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:06:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Liberator (#19) FWIK, that pilot didn't lock himself in the cockpit and drive the plane into a mountain. "For the Lord is our Judge, The Lord is our Lawgiver, The Lord is our King; He will save us" (Isaiah 33:22) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-27   11:06:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Liberator (#23) Maybe he was BOTH. "No evidence"?? That wasn't the case yesterday. What's changed?? (I mean besides the usual and expected denials after the initial facts and revelations leaked? I have no idea where we have a credible source stating he was a Muslim other than something written on Gatewaypundit as click bait. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   11:06:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: Liberator (#23) "No evidence"?? That wasn't the case yesterday. What's changed?? (I mean besides the usual and expected denials after the initial facts and revelations were leaked?) He had six months off for depression during his State-side training in 2009. His fiancee recently broke up with him. And apparently they found a certificate on his medical condition torn up in his apartment, supposedly taking effect on the day he crashed the plane. The details aren't all in just yet. I haven't seen an iota of Islam around this guy's history. Just some rumors by some of the biggest rumormongers on the internet. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   11:11:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: TooConservative (#28) He had six months off for depression during his State-side training in 2009. His fiancee recently broke up with him. And?? As though depression is rare? As are fiancee break-ups? (was his with a man or woman?) And apparently they found a certificate on his medical condition torn up in his apartment, supposedly taking effect on the day he crashed the plane. The details aren't all in just yet. Very convenient. As a proud LF/LP/FR conspiracist, I'm going to discount and dismiss such "details" as misdirection and disinformation. I haven't seen an iota of Islam around this guy's history. Just some rumors by some of the biggest rumormongers on the internet. With all due respect, this act perpetrated by this guy is a signature of Islamic terrorism and radicalism. In other words, "If it quacks like a duck...." This guy's "history" is already being scrubbed (Facebook: POOF!! GONE!) and massaged by the authoritahs. In its place, a new, improved, exclusive profile and history solely of "dark depression" and a "troubled life." Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:44:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: Pericles (#27) (Edited) I have no idea where we have a credible source stating he was a Muslim other than something written on Gatewaypundit as click bait. Chyeah, "credible." I guess there's also NO "evidence" that Barry Hoosane 0bola isn't a Muslim either. The MSM is owned lock stock and barrel. HELLO. The brains of sooo many Sheeple to shear and manipulate....It's stunning. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:47:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: Liberator (#29) Very convenient. As a proud LF/LP/FR conspiracist, I'm going to discount and dismiss such "details" as misdirection and disinformation. What we know of him so far is coming from French prosecutors in public statements and German criminal investigators speaking off the record. Europe handles these crashes differently. There is a presumption of criminality in accidents. And if the airline is found to be derelict in removing him from service, their executives could face prison for it. This guy's "history" is already being scrubbed (Facebook: POOF!! GONE!) and massaged by the authoritahs. In its place, a new, improved, exclusive profile and history solely of "dark depression" and a "troubled life." Not wanting to ruin your fun but can you marshal even a scrap of actual evidence that he was a Muslim at all? Other than a few rumors on discredited blogs? Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   11:49:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: redleghunter (#26) FWIK, that pilot didn't lock himself in the cockpit and drive the plane into a mountain. You mean the co-pilot, right? So...what's the new narrative? Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: TooConservative (#31) Not wanting to ruin your fun but can you marshal even a scrap of actual evidence that he was a Muslim at all? Other than a few rumors on discredited blogs? You mean leaks and info from secondhand sources don't count because MSNBC/CNN/FOX didn't confirm? You know what I also find fascinating? Just how many conservative blogs and online sources are "discredited"....when the subject matter is Barry 0bola. And just how much collusion and corruption there is within the mainstream media outlets and gubmints. Look -- the French or German authoritahs are NEVER going to reveal the true nature of this case -- that the perp was a Muslim. Now I know and understand you need an "official report" that supports that claim. Politically, it would set off an unprecedented sh*tstorm of violence. THAT is the bottom line. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   11:57:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: TooConservative, all (#31) Another link to ponder (before IT gets removed): http://stthomasaquinasversusnasa.blogspot.com/2015/03/muslim-convert-co-pilot-andreas-gunter.html Make what you will of it. It was said that Lubitz had a Muslim girlfriend. It is unclear if she was still dating Lubitz at the time of the crash. It is unclear if he met the woman through his Muslims friends. One said that Lubitz had broken off the relationship after he pledged to commit Jihad for Allah. We do know that Lubitz trained at the Lufthansa Flight Training School in Bremen, Germany. Bremen is home to the Mosque Masjidu-l-Furqan Mosque: This Mosque was raided by the police in December 2014 BERLIN, Dec 5 (KUNA) — German authorities have closed a mosque in the northern city of Bremen, after it was accused of encouraging youth to join the extremist Islamic State group (known as ISIL), which is carrying out violent killings across Syria and Iraq. In unprecedented circumstances, more than 100 German police personnel carried out a search of Masjidu-l-Furqan and its accompanying cultural office, which had both been under police radar since 2007. The decision comes amid the fight against ISIL ideology, Bremen Interior Secretary Ulrich Maurer said, accusing the mosque’s management of promoting ISIL values and encouraging young Muslims in the city to travel to Syria and Iraq, and join the ranks of the group, along with Al-Nusra Front – another extremist group in Syria. The centre have so far succeeded in inspiring a total eight men, seven women and 11 juveniles to travel to Syria and join ISIL, according to the official. Lubitz did his time in Bremen when the Mosque was under surveillance. During his training Lubitz took a break - a several month break: Carsten Spohr, CEO of Germanwings parent company, said in a press conference today that Lubitz "took a break in his training six years ago. Then he did the tests (technical and psychological) again. And he was deemed 100 percent fit to fly." "I am not able to state the reasons why he took the break for several months [Was it because Lubitz converted to Islam during his break?] Reason that pushed Lubitz over the edge? The raid on the Mosque in Breman this past December? The Police say they found a significant discovery in his home - not a suicide note: Police investigating the Germanwings crash said they had made a 'significant discovery' at the home of co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, who deliberately ploughed the Airbus A320 into the French Alps. Officers refused to reveal details of the potential breakthrough but said it was not a suicide note. Speaking outside the flat on the outskirts of Dusseldorf, police said they had 'found something' that would now be taken for tests, adding it may be a 'clue' as to what happened to the doomed jet. Is the significant discovery something Islamic? Something on his computer? A Koran? Muslim prayer rug? Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   12:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: TooConservative, Liberator (#28) I haven't seen an iota of Islam around this guy's history. Just some rumors by some of the biggest rumormongers on the internet. I agree and I would blame Islam in a heart beat - I am not exactly a defender of their religion and think what the Serbs did to the Muslims was fine and dandy. Not every bad thing on earth is Islam's fault. Sometimes it's just some nut off his meds. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   12:21:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: Pericles (#35) "You shall not bear false witness" is a commandment. Liars are sentenced to the Lake of Fire at the end. I can speculate about Islam like anyone else. In fact, I was "morally certain" of it in the Oklahoma City Bombing, and in those theater killings, and charged out there with accusations, without the facts. And I was wrong. Dead wrong. Both times. I was ready to join a lynch mob and I did make false accusations. I was SO VERY CERTAIN. And I was SO VERY WRONG. From these experiences, I have learned to withhold judgment until I know the facts. If I never have the facts, then I can never judge the case. That's fine. God sees all and knows all. Nobody ever gets away with anything. My saying "I don't know: awaiting developments" does not harm anything and is not wrong: it's honest; it's true. My saying "It's Islam!" is not true. I don't know that. It's not honest. It doesn't matter how "morally certain" I am. I've been morally certain twice before and dead wrong both times. I don't intend to make it a threefer. I don't know. If it was Islam, the National Front in France just picked up some major tailwind. If it was not, then Muslims are getting shit for something a Muslim didn't do, and that's wrong. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-27   12:55:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: Vicomte13, Liberator (#36) It's like the Katyn Forrest massacre of Polish officers by the Soviets. It was blamed on the Germans. The Nazis were bad guys - outright mass murderers - but they did not do that crime in question. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   12:59:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: Liberator (#32) I meant the nut on the Jet Blue flight you referenced. He was raving but did not do something stupid. "For the Lord is our Judge, The Lord is our Lawgiver, The Lord is our King; He will save us" (Isaiah 33:22) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-27   13:10:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: Vicomte13 (#36) "You shall not bear false witness" is a commandment. Liars are sentenced to the Lake of Fire at the end. So according to you, 2+2 = ?? No, your analogy fall flat. I am not knowingly "lying" OR "bearing false witness." Yes, I am speculating, but based on strong circumstantial and initial reports (that you and many other find un-compelling or "official"), including profiling, tendencies, and the chronic lying of so-called "official reports." Till this day, only Muslim pilots plunge airplane into buildings, the sea, and mountains. Ergo, based upon all of the above factors, the odds are overwhelming that the perp is...a Muslim. So -- would you have believed the "official" accounts of the Romans regarding Jesus guilt? Or the Pharisees? Before you lecture me on the Lake of Fire, get the log out of your own eye, Brother. You've recently been indicting EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATOR as derelict in their duty and obligation. That's not only impossible, but technically...a lie. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   13:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#39) "You shall not bear false witness" is a commandment. Liars are sentenced to the Lake of Fire at the end. So according to you, 2+2 = ?? No, your analogy fall flat. I am not knowingly "lying" OR "bearing false witness." Yes, I am speculating, but based on strong circumstantial and initial reports (that you and many other find un-compelling or "official"), including profiling, tendencies, and the chronic lying of so-called "official reports." Till this day, only Muslim pilots plunge airplane into buildings, the sea, and mountains. Ergo, based upon all of the above factors, the odds are overwhelming that the perp is...a Muslim. So -- would you have believed the "official" accounts of the Romans regarding Jesus guilt? Or the Pharisees? Before you lecture me on the Lake of Fire, get the log out of your own eye, Brother. You've recently been indicting EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATOR as derelict in their duty and obligation. That's not only impossible, but technically...a lie. One of the bad things about the internet, Liberator, is that there are a lot of false stuff on there pretending to be news, etc. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   13:29:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: redleghunter (#38) I meant the nut on the Jet Blue flight you referenced. He was raving but did not do something stupid. EXACTAMUNDO. Apparently, some maligning narrator with an obvious agenda have warped compulsion to toss into the same bushel some PO'd guy who was "ranting about Jesus, terrorists, and 9/11" aboard a plane....with actual, murderous terrorists. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   13:30:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#41) Apparently, some maligning narrator with an obvious agenda have warped compulsion to toss into the same bushel some PO'd guy who was "ranting about Jesus, terrorists, and 9/11" aboard a plane....with actual, murderous terrorists. OK, terrorists have a political agenda they are trying to win on via terrorism. Being the victim of a crazy person is terrifying but it is not terrorism. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   13:34:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: Pericles (#40) One of the bad things about the internet, Liberator, is that there are a lot of false stuff on there pretending to be news, etc. And conversely, one of the good things about the internet is completely bypassing the lies and political memes of the MSM. Much of what IS reported on the major Tee-Bee news networks and mainstream media outlets is NOT "news," but propaganda and lies of omission. You mean you don't already know that? In the case of this mass murdering co-pilot, it's not hard to do the math; advancing political agendas, a New World Order, and collecting 30+ pieces of silver are more important than the truth. It's been the case for a long time, whether it's been Jesus Christ or 9/11. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   13:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Pericles, redleghunter (#42) OK, terrorists have a political agenda they are trying to win on via terrorism. Being the victim of a crazy person is terrifying but it is not terrorism. True dat. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   13:41:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: Liberator (#39) No, your analogy fall flat. I am not knowingly "lying" OR "bearing false witness." Maybe YOU'RE not bearing false witness, but if I said "A Muslim did it", I would be. I do not know that a Muslim did it. I have no basis to say that other than suspicion, and that is not good enough for me to make such an accusation. I am very interested to know what his religion was, and what his religious belief set was. I am interested to know details about his ethnicity and his acquaintances. Very, very interested. I will not be surprised to find Islam or atheism there or insane right wing nationalism in there. Not in the least. But that does not allow me to positively assert "He is a Muslim". If I were to do that, I would be bearing false witness, because I don't know it. My purpose in doing it would be to attack Islam for yet another crime against humanity. There are plenty of REAL Muslim abominations. It will not do for me to make up additional ones. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-27   13:41:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: Pericles (#40) One of the bad things about the internet, Liberator, is that there are a lot of false stuff on there pretending to be news, etc. I'm glad you agree with me -- wholeheartedly, and avidly apparently. #5. To: TooConservative, Fred Mertz (#2) (Edited) I think a lot of people did not buy the State Dept/EU narrative on Ukraine - their first reaction is to think that Russia - stumble bums in propaganda - had somehow undermined the American message? - I mean we had those hipster State Dept spokeswomen doing Twitter hastags for the Kiev Nazis and being laughed and clearly that was the KGB doing that? - lol. Either they actually think their message was short circuted by professional trolls (like the State Dept does not have similar services) or this is an excuse to cover the USA ramping up their own propaganda effort as cover. There is a troll gap!!!! Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   12:52:57 ET And...how about those "professional trolls"? Good thing none reside at this forum. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   13:48:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: Liberator (#46) Pericles posted on 2015-03-27 12:52:57 ET And...how about those "professional trolls"? Good thing none reside at this forum. Pro trolls post on newspaper comment sections and forums with lots of clickers. To be a professional troll here is a waste of time and money. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-27   13:57:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: Vicomte13 (#45) (Edited) But that does not allow me to positively assert "He is a Muslim". If I were to do that, I would be bearing false witness, because I don't know it. Don't we positively "know" many things that we've never seen? Would you vouch 100% for you wife or kids or best friend in a court of law -- even though it's impossible to be with them 24/7? Of course you would. Every fiber of my body and mind "knows" he is a Muslim. Call it instinct, a strong gut feeling, profiling, consideration of what evidence and trickled info is available. That said, if it turns out that irrefutable evidence never sees the light of day, it STILL doesn't make me a liar. A liar knowingly promotes a falsehood without regard of any fact. Sometimes we don't need Geraldo, FOX, CNN, or the US State Dept to confirm what appears to be the obvious. I am very interested to know what his religion was, and what his religious belief set was. The officials differ. They claim it's not relevant (for some odd reason.) There are plenty of REAL Muslim abominations. It will not do for me to make up additional ones. The lack of eyewitness account who step forward or discarded or manipulation of evidence as missing burdens of proof only apply in a court of law. I will not be surprised to find Islam or atheism there or insane right wing nationalism in there. Not in the least. Odds: Muslim: 98% Atheist: 1.5% Insane right wing nationalist: .05% So perhaps technically, you're right in your assessment ;-) BUT, understandable given your profession. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   14:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Pericles (#47) Still, I enjoyed your rant against state-sponsored lies and propaganda (in support of political agendas :-) To be a professional troll here is a waste of time and money. At just $.01 per post, somewhere there may just be a very rich ex-poster from LP, smoking cubans and soaking in a hotub in an igloo. Liberator  posted on  2015-03-27   14:06:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: Liberator (#48) Would you vouch 100% for you wife or kids or best friend in a court of law -- even though it's impossible to be with them 24/7? Of course you would. It would depend what I am vouching for. I would vouch for what I know and see. I would say that it would be completely out of character for, say, my wife to have bought and gun and shot somebody through the head. Unless I was being asked about things that maybe WOULD be in character, in which case I would claim things like spousal privilege or use other maneuvers to avoid having to answer the question. I would not outright lie in a court of law, provided I considered the court to be lawful, or even if I did, provided that the range of penalties, etc., was not important enough to matter. Example; I would not lie to a Third Reich traffic court, because even if I was convicted of parking wrong, it'd be a ticket fine, nothing more. Despicable regimes are not despicable in EVERY way. If I were a visitor in North Korea, I would not steal subway rides even if I could. I'd pay for them normally. On the other hand, if I were put under sworn oath in a Third Reich court to denounce my neighbors as Jews, and I knew they WERE Jews but my testimony was needed, I would take the oath, and then I would lie through my teeth in as artful and believable way as possible. I would not allow my honor to be used against be by evil people in such a way to be able to lynch and destroy somebody else whom I knew to be innocent of a crime. I would perjure myself "before God" and assume that in war God has always permitted deceit of the enemy as a tactic. I would assume that God would forgive me for intentionally breaking a commandment in order to save the lives of others, and would not condemn me for being a liar. And if I were wrong, and condemned by Jesus at the end for the lie, I would consider him unjust, because he would be. But he isn't, so in fact I would not worry for a moment about having lied under oath in an evil court ruled by evil killers. I would not, in fact, even feel any particular need to confess it, because I do not consider it a sin to lie to killers who manipulate a system. You can't stick a gun in my face and put me under oath and bind me before heaven to tell you the truth so that you can do more evil. In such a case, God has released me from the obligation to not bear false witness, and I may, in fact, bear as much false witness as a I need to, because this is not really a court, it's the battlefield in a war, and it is licit before God to deceive the enemy on the battlefield. I'd prefer not to have to fight, but if you make me, then you're evil and I don't have to be honest to you on the battlefield. I can deceive you in order to defeat you. In THIS case, though, of the pilot, I'm not under oath. I do not know, and I don't have a way to know. I'm interested in the facts, but I won't prejudge the case. In a regular situation, if my wife or child were, say, accused of drowning a baby and I thought they had actually done it, I would have sought to discern the truth long before, and if I thought they had done it, I wouldn't lie under oath to let them get away with it, no. In other words: it all depends on the situation. There's no "one size fits all answer". The Christians who refused to drink the libation to the Emperor and let their children be torn apart by lions were martyrs, to be sure, and rewarded by God. But the Christians who, faced with that, lied, poured out the libation, saved their families, and then later asked for forgiveness from God were ALSO readmitted to the Church. I would have been one of the latter, if pushed to the wall. I would not let evil people slaughter my family to refuse mouthing words that I didn't believe. I'd mouth their words and lie to them and pretend that the Emperor was God, and it would be a battlefield tactic: deceiving the enemy to live to fight another day. There would be Christians who would condemn me for it. And there would be God who would forgive me for it. And I care what He thinks. Of course if he appeared to me and sent an angel to tell me to tell the truth and cause everybody to be killed, I'd do that. In the absence of a direct order from God to do it, though, I would treat the threat as the battlefield gesture of an enemy, and in war, God permits you to lie to your enemy all the time in order to defeat him. Deception is a legitimate battlefield tactic of the people of God. The Jews used it all the time in the Scripture, and Christians may use it in life and death confrontations with evil people trying to kill them. In the case of peace, though, where nobody is threatening to feed me or my daughter to the lions if I don't pretend to something, then being deceptive is not ok. It's not war, and in peace lying is not a legitimate tactic. I agree that you're not lying when you say that the pilot was a Muslim. You're morally certain of it. I'm not morally certain of it. I've been burnt before when I convinced myself that people I hated were guilty, because it's what they'd do. When they turned out not to have done it, I was abashed. Here, I don't know. And not knowing, I can't say that I do. I don't know, even that the pilot committed murder suicide. He was breathing normally, they say. Perhaps he had a toxic shock or a brain aneuryism and was mentally incapacitated, quiescent, and breathing normally while in fact mentally fogged. I don't know. I'm going to wait and see what comes out. Then I'll decide if I believe it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-27   15:39:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: Vicomte13, Liberator (#45) Maybe YOU'RE not bearing false witness, but if I said "A Muslim did it", I would be. Unless Liberator was the (heretofore) sole unknown survivor of this airliner crash, he isn't any kind of witness either. Unless someone has changed the definition of "witness" and "false witness" recently. We can only gather evidence now. The witnesses are all dead. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   17:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: TooConservative, Liberator (#51) (Edited) Unless Liberator was the (heretofore) sole unknown survivor of this airliner crash, he isn't any kind of witness either. Unless someone has changed the definition of "witness" and "false witness" recently. We can only gather evidence now. The witnesses are all dead. Ok. I'm going to withdraw from this particular discussion, and I have no desire to get into a furrball with either of you gentlemen over this one. I really don't know what happened. It's a puzzle. And I really don't want to fight with either one of you. I kind of hope that the copilot suffered a physical collapse that left him breathing but unresponsive, and that he wasn't a mass murderer. But if that's the case, I really wish that God had not chosen to impose that on him THERE. It's quite a terrible way to teach people that the "security" of a locked cabin door is death for all in a different circumstances. Which is more likely, a medical calamity or a terrorist attack? Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-27   18:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: Vicomte13 (#52) I kind of hope that the copilot suffered a physical collapse that left him breathing but unresponsive, and that he wasn't a mass murderer. He set the autopilot altitude manually for 100 feet in a mountainous region. He overrode the door lock. He was a mass murderer. Which is more likely, a medical calamity or a terrorist attack? Based on evidence we have, he was a mass murderer. A suicide that took 150 others down with him. There are some hints that the evidence seized from his apartment had some bad medical diagnosis, one that would end his flying career or even that he had a fatal illness. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   19:38:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: Vicomte13 (#52) Yahoo News, today: Duesseldorf (Germany) (AFP) - The Germanwings co-pilot who crashed his Airbus into the French Alps, killing all 150 aboard, hid a serious illness from the airline, prosecutors said Friday amid reports he was severely depressed. The black box voice recorder indicates that Andreas Lubitz, 27, locked his captain out of the cockpit on Tuesday and deliberately flew Flight 4U 9525 into a mountainside, French officials say, in what appears to have been a case of suicide and mass murder. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said that all the signs were "pointing towards an act that we can't describe: criminal, crazy, suicidal". German prosecutors revealed that searches of Lubitz's homes netted "medical documents that suggest an existing illness and appropriate medical treatment", including "torn-up and current sick leave notes, among them one covering the day of the crash". They did not specify the illness. But Bild daily earlier reported that Lubitz sought psychiatric help for "a bout of serious depression" in 2009 and was still getting assistance from doctors, quoting documents from Germany's air transport regulator. The paper also cited security sources as saying that Lubitz and his girlfriend were having a "serious crisis in their relationship" that left him distraught. Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said that Lubitz had suspended his pilot training, which began in 2008, "for a certain period", before restarting and qualifying for the Airbus A320 in 2013. According to Bild, those setbacks were linked to "depression and anxiety attacks". His doctor was writing him medical excuses to miss work and he was tearing them up. I think this incident will likely end medical privacy for pilots in Europe. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-27   19:53:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: TooConservative (#54) If true, it should probably end medical privacy for pilots everywhere. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-27   20:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Pericles, Liberator, Vicomte13 (#40) Weekly Standard, not exactly shy to expose any Muslim as a terrorist, debunks the copilot-converted-to-Islam rumors still circulating. The Germanwings Co-pilot’s Non-Existent ‘Muslim Conversion’ Blogs and social media has been abuzz with talk of a supposed “German news report” indicating that Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525, was a Muslim convert. In fact, there is no such report. The rumor that Lubitz converted to Islam got started on the German site Politically Incorrect. In the American blogosphere, Politically Incorrect is being cited as a “German news website.” It is not a news site, however, but rather is an overtly anti-Islamic blog/forum. The confusion apparently arose from the site’s url: www.pi-news.net. Given the orientation of the site and reports that Germanwings 9525 was intentionally crashed by the co-pilot, it is hardly surprising that commentators on Politically Incorrect would speculate about whether Lubitz was a Muslim. Reference was made in particular to a blog post by a site regular named Michael Mannheimer. Mannheimer’s post contains no evidence that Lubitz was a Muslim convert, but just more speculation. Mannheimer’s conjecture is based on such apparently suspicious details as the fact that Lubitz did flight training in Bremen and Bremen is also home to a mosque known for its radicalism. In fairness to Politically Incorrect, it should be noted that several commentators on the site have themselves rejected the speculations in Mannheimer’s post as unfounded, including one who remarked that he “must have been very drunk” when he wrote it. Related American posts have also made reference to newly minted Facebook pages celebrating Lubitz in an Islamist vein. But of obviously greater relevance is Lubitz’s own Facebook page. That page has been taken down, but a Google cache of the entry page (i.e. without timeline entries) is still available here. It contains no trace of any interest in Islam. It does, however, feature the now famous photo of Lubitz posing in front of the Golden State Bridge, as well as a banner photo of New York’s Times Square. Lubitz is known to have done training and travelled in the United States, and it is clear from his Facebook page that he was an admirer of the country. This hardly fits the standard profile of an Islamist – no more so than Lubitz’s evident enthusiasm for techno musicians like the French DJ/producer David Guetta. We will undoubtedly learn more about Lubitz’s life in the days and weeks to come. But the supposed “German news report” does not exist and for the moment, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that he was a Muslim convert. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-28   15:22:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: TooConservative (#56) Is this still a rumour? Pericles  posted on  2015-03-28   17:51:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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