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Title: Walter E. Williams --- What's Gone Wrong With Democracy
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Published: Mar 23, 2015
Author: Walter E. Williams
Post Date: 2015-03-23 14:35:49 by tpaine
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Comments: 96
Walter E. Williams What's Gone Wrong With Democracy? The Economist magazine recently published "What's gone wrong with Democracy ... and what can be done to revive it?" The suggestion is that democracy is some kind of ideal for organizing human conduct. That's a popular misconception. The ideal way to organize human conduct is to create a system that maximizes personal liberty for all. Liberty and democracy are not synonymous and most often are opposites. In Federalist Paper No. 10, James Madison explained, "Measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority." Democracy and majority rule confer an aura of legitimacy and respectability on acts that would otherwise be deemed tyrannical. Let's look at majority rule, as a decision-making tool, and ask ourselves how many of our life choices we would like settled by majority rule. Would you want the kind of car you own to be decided through a democratic process, or would you prefer purchasing any car you please? Ask that same question about decisions such as where you shall live, what clothes you purchase, what food you eat, what entertainment you enjoy and what wines you drink. I'm sure that if anyone suggested that these choices be subject to a democratic process, we would deem it tyranny. Our Founders saw democracy as a variant of tyranny. At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said, "...that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy." John Adams said, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Alexander Hamilton said, "We are now forming a Republican form of government. Real Liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of dictatorship." By the way, the word democracy appears in none of our founding documents. The Founders of our nation recognized that we need government, but because the essence of government is force, and force is evil, government should be as small as possible. The Founders intended for us to have a limited republican form of government where human rights precede government and there is rule of law. Citizens, as well as government officials, are accountable to the same laws. Government intervenes in civil society only to protect its citizens against force and fraud, but does not intervene in the cases of peaceable, voluntary exchange. By contrast, in a democracy, the majority rules either directly or through its elected representatives. The law is whatever the government deems it to be. Rights may be granted or taken away. Alert to the dangers of majority rule, the Constitution's framers inserted several anti-majority rules. In order to amend the Constitution, it requires a two-thirds vote of both houses, or two-thirds of state legislatures to propose an amendment, and it requires three-fourths of state legislatures for ratification. Election of the president is not done by a majority popular vote, but by the Electoral College. Part of the reason for having two houses of Congress is that it places an obstacle to majority rule. Fifty-one senators can block the wishes of 435 representatives and 49 senators. The Constitution gives the president a veto to thwart the power of 535 members of Congress. It takes two-thirds of both houses of Congress to override the president's veto. If you don't have time to examine our founding documents, just ask yourself: Does our pledge of allegiance to the flag read to the democracy, or to the republic, for which it stands? Or, did Julia Ward Howe make a mistake in titling her Civil War song "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? Should it have been "The Battle Hymn of the Democracy"? Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University. To find out more about Walter E. Williams and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com. COPYRIGHT 2015 CREATORS.COM
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#28. To: sneakypete (#26)
And lock the rest of us below their decks if TSHTF. Iceberg? Those are soooo 1890s!
Yeah. The Founders would be spinning in their graves to see how public referendums are being used to write statewide criminal laws (eg., marijuana). --- misterwhite Yeah, it's even more 'really strange' to see misterwhite/robertpaulsen pretending to disapprove of public referendum/majority rule being used to write statewide anti-gun laws.
Neither democracy or oligarchy have ever existed in the USA, Why bother? -- They're all convinced of their oligarchy type powers, -- when in reality, if they ever seriously tried to exercise them, they would be (figuratively speaking) shot down. -- Ahem....
Proud sponsors of the American Dream. Last I heard none of the above have been bound in stocks for tomato pasting in response to their colorful SOX violations.
Meanwhile, collective human nature does what it has been doing throughout its collectively organized and indoctrinated history: ================================ Afghan woman Farkhunda lynched in Kabul 'for speaking out' Farkhunda, 28, was beaten, hit by bats, stamped on, driven over, and her body dragged by a car before being set on fire. A policeman who witnessed the incident on Thursday told AP news agency that Farkhunda was arguing with a local mullah. Her father said she had complained about women being encouraged to waste money on the amulets peddled by the mullahs at the shrine. "Based on their lies, people decided Farkhunda was not a Muslim and beat her to death," ================================ Ain't the organized religious (soon to be state-established, AGAIN) mob just awesome? TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS governments are ins... err... umm --- I forget, how does that go again?
Art. 1, Sec. 2, Cl. 3: The slaves were considered persons. The interest held in a slave was legaly considered a property interest, but that did not transform slaves into non-persons. They were each counted as one complete person in the census. By unanimous agreement of the States, for representation purposes in the Congress, only 60% of the aggregate of such persons was counted.
And women.
Well,a few of them were shot down,but it had nothing to do with a free America. BTW,just because something isn't official that doesn't mean it isn't real.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
And women. Thanks. I didn't know that. Do you have any links? I don't doubt your accuracy,but would like to be able to refer others to links when I repeat that and they start demanding proof.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
http://www.kon.org/urc/v4/tikhomirova.html There was an effort after the War of Independence was won to disenfranchise Blacks and Indians. You had blacks and Indians that were free men owning slaves and plantations and then the laws changed and attitudes changed.
They're all convinced of their oligarchy type powers, -- when in reality, if they ever seriously tried to exercise them, they would be (figuratively speaking) shot down. -- Ahem.... Yep, that's the Warren Commission line, but I'm not so sure.. You're telling me?
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=36575&Disp=11#C11 In general, see this thread where "the people" and suffrage were extensively discussed. As regards a constitutional textbook definition of "the people," see: [Italics in original, boldface and underline added.] Thomas M Cooley, LL.D.; The General Principles of Constitutional Law in the United States of America; Boston; Little Brown, and Company; 1880; pages 267-268. The Constitution did not guarantee anyone the right to vote. That is up to the states. States constitutionally created statutes restricting who could vote, and they constitutionally restricted women after the Constitution was adopted and after women had already voted. Also, the Constitution affirmatively stated the requirements to be President. It did not prohibit women from running for President. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belva_Ann_Lockwood Lockwood graduated from law school in Washington, D.C. and became one of the first female lawyers in the United States. In 1879, she successfully petitioned Congress to be allowed to practice before the United States Supreme Court, becoming the first woman attorney given this privilege. Lockwood ran for president in 1884 and 1888 on the ticket of the National Equal Rights Party and was the first woman to appear on official ballots.[2] http://www.greatwomen.org/women-of-the-hall/search-the-hall/details/2/98-Lockwood http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=36575&Disp=43#C43 I started to quote the original constitutions of the states regarding who were citizens. http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=36575&Disp=46#C46 Documenting the early voting of women in New Jersey. Their vote in NJ was revoked in the 1800's. For example: http://www.ushistoryscene.com/uncategorized/njsuffrage/ [...] Female voters in New Jersey celebrated their political rights. Federalist pamphleteer William Griffith estimated the number of unmarried women and widows to be greater than 10,000, a substantial figure, and those eligible voted in great numbers. ((Klinghoffer and Elkins, 177.)) [...] Female voters echoed Wollstonecraft’s sentiments in the 1800 presidential race between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, when nearly every woman eligible to vote, no matter her race or class, participated in the New Jersey election. ((Bushnell, Horace. “The Report of History.” In Women’s Suffrage; Reform Against Nature. New York: Charles Scribner and Company, 1869. 111)) http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=36575&Disp=78#C78 Any inhabitant of full age with fifty pounds proclamation money, resident twelve months, had the right to vote per the state constitution. As noted previously, women voted there for over thirty years, including before, during, and after 1792. http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=36575&Disp=83#C83 [...] VIII. That all freemen, of the age of twenty-one years, who have been inhabitants of any one county within the State twelve months immediately preceeding the day of any election, and shall have paid public taxes, shall be entitled to vote for members of the House of Commons for the county in which he resides. State v Manuel, 4 Devereux and Battle 20, 25 (1838), Gaston, J. [...] The Constitution extended the elective franchise to every freeman who had arrived at the age of twenty-one and paid a public tax, and it is a matter of universal notoriety that, under it, free persons, without regard to color, claimed and exercised the franchise until it was taken from free men of color a few years since by our amended Constitution." More state constitutions follow.
Today's society is better than the society of the Founders. Yes, I'll tell you that. Oh, and the Founders recognized that the slaves were people and property. That's why they included them in the census. They were not blind. They were evil, raging hypocrites.
When a quarter of your population are slaves, you are not a free country. Words mean things, and the word "free" doesn't include slavery. Redefining people as not people doesn't help the case. It's just pathetic and dishonest. The slavers among the Founding Fathers were evil, hypocritical, murderous, traitorous bastards. Revolting to establish the principle that "All men are created equal" and really DOING IT may, MAY justify killing the King]s officers and renouncing allegiance to your country. But proclaiming it, murdering your countrymen, and then simply gaining the power for yourself, and leaving a quarter of the population in chains makes you a murderous treasonous hypocrite, a viper. Nothing more. Nothing good. Nothing I'm going to praise. John Adams. HE was praiseworthy. He was also the minority position. The power and wealth was elsewhere, and they became the leaders. They murdered the officers, replaced the King with themselves, and kept a quarter of the population in chains. Vile hypocrites, murderous villains and traitors. They deserved to swing on a rope, not win. But the Almighty has his own purposes.
Don't tell me,tell the Pope.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
What does the Pope have to do with the Founding Fathers?
What does the Pope have to do with the Founding Fathers? Nothing,but Popes have had a lot to do with slavery.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
They sure did. Also war and torture. We face it squarely, acknowledge the evil, and fix it. Would that Americans were as honest with themselves as Catholics are.
Thank you for admitting that Catholics aren't Americans.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
It wasn't for the census. It was for the determination of the number of representatives sent to Congress. Each state was allowed one representative for 30,000 citizens. The south, with a large number of slaves, wanted larger representation. So they were allowed to count each slave as 3/5 of a free person.
I was only referring to the voting process. That when voters were limited to those with the most to lose, it was a fairer system. Today's average voter is ignorant of the issues, easily fooled by propaganda, is voting on a single issue, and is heavily influenced by political correctness. 47% of them pay no federal income tax, yet vote in the federal election for people who promise them all kinds of goodies paid for by someone else. I'd like to see voting in the federal election limited to those who a) could answer the questions in the U.S. Citizenship Test and b) pay federal income taxes. State office and local elections -- that's up to each state. I don't care.
Only for the apportionment of representatives and direct taxes. And, technically, they were "other persons". They had no more rights than a table or chair.
Oh, but we are. And we're winning.
Nope. It concentrates political power in the hands of people who already have money and property. But men who don't have property are still subject to the law in their bodies, lives and limbs. They have as important a stake as anybody else. One adult, one vote is the only acceptable way. Most people merely want security: stable housing, food, clothing, medical care if they need it, and education for their children. Most are content with that. If they cannot get that, then they will vote to use the power of the state to get it from those who are concentrating so much money that it prevents those things. That's the way it is, and that's the way it ought to be. The problem with democracy is that people will vote themselves sexual license that will end up destroying the birth rate and killing off the society.
Which is why that system and its culture had to be destroyed. If it would not peaceful cede it power and stop committing evil, it had to be uprooted by force. And it was.
The plan was to free the slaves and deport them to Liberia, an idea Lincoln supported. He died before he had a chance to implement it.
misterwhite ---- And, technically, they were "other persons". They had no more rights than a table or chair. Vicomte13 --- Which is why that system and its culture had to be destroyed. If it would not peaceful cede it power and stop committing evil, it had to be uprooted by force. And it was. To reiterate, Walter Williams points remain unrefuted: ---- -- "Our Founders saw democracy as a variant of tyranny. At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said, "...that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy." John Adams said, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Alexander Hamilton said, "We are now forming a Republican form of government. Real Liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of dictatorship."
And, technically, they were "other persons". They had no more rights than a table or chair. According the the U.S. Constitution, the slaves were counted as people. In the census, each was counted as 100% of a person. Representation was provided to the slave states based on 60% of the slave persons counted in the census. Technically, they were persons. Free persons were persons. Women were persons. Poor persons were persons. Indentured servants were persons. Indians not taxed were persons. All other persons were persons. That latter persons were slaves but the Framers artfully dodged using the word slave. Art. 1, Sec. 2. Cl. 3: Art. 1, Sec. 9, Cl. 1: [protected from high taxation on slave persons] Art. 1, Sec. 9, Cl. 4: [each slave person counted as one person] Art. 4, Sec. 2, Cl. 3: [Fugitive slave clause re enslaved persons] The misterwhite defense: "But your Honor, the clause does not apply to me. It only applies to persons and I am not a person." Art. 5:
-- "Our Founders saw democracy as a variant of tyranny. At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said, "...that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy." John Adams said, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Alexander Hamilton said, "We are now forming a Republican form of government. Real Liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of dictatorship." Refuted? No. However, what the Founders set up, their Republic, WAS a horrendous tyranny. When a quarter of the population of a country are chained slaves, that country is a monstrous joke of a nation, hideously evil and worthy of destruction, not something to be PROUD of.
Deportation to Liberia was physically impossible as was explained to Lincoln. The plan was Central and South America and the islands.
--- What the Founders set up, our Republic, IS a tremendous success. despite the fact that a quarter of the population of a country were chained slaves, freed after nearly 80 years of a 'war on slavery'... Our country is something to be PROUD of. Your attitude towards our country is disgraceful.
Deportation to Liberia was physically impossible as was explained to Lincoln. The plan was Central and South America and the islands. The plan was wicked. Civil war was a better option.
Deportation to Liberia was the initial plan. Many changes to that plan were made. The POINT is, deportation was part of emancipation.
Winning what? I realize the Holy Mother Church is an administrative arm of "Worldwide Government,Inc",but I would hardly call that winning.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
-- "Our Founders saw democracy as a variant of tyranny. At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said, "...that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy." John Adams said, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Alexander Hamilton said, "We are now forming a Republican form of government. Real Liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of dictatorship." Excellent distillation of the Founders' concerns of a pure "Democracy."
So when the U.S. Constitution stated, "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen", they were including slaves?
He's steamed because they didn't allow the Catholic Church to be a co-governing branch of government,with the right to hold trials and punish non-believers.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
My attitude is just. The country's history is what is disgraceful. The Catholic Church also has a disgraceful past. But guess what? Catholics man up about it, are honest about it, admit the sins, and have fixed it. We don't DEFEND the evils of the past, we call them evil, and we call the men who committed them erroneous and sinful. What is disgraceful is to look at a treasonous asshat like George Washington, standing there priggishly "for liberty", shooting down his own British countrymen to obtain this liberty, whingeing that slaves the British freed had to be RETURNED at the end of the war, and then holding slaves until the day he died, thereby making a joke out of any claim he fought for human liberty. He committed murder and treason in his own quest for personal power. He attained it: he died the wealthiest man in America, with a plantation still full of slaves. Flaming hypocrite. Were we speaking of a Pope, the execrations would be hurled, and rightly too. It is no different when we speak of a man who went out and killed thousands of people for "The proposition that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty..." I hold Washington to the same standard that people (including me) hold the Popes of old. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. What those Popes and Washington did was disgraceful. It is not disgraceful to call them out on it. We had to have a Civil War and a million dead BECAUSE the Founders were greedy, weak men with feet of clay, hypocrites, who were willing to commit treason and kill their own countrymen in order to gain power, but who were not willing to strip down some of their own personal wealth in order to live up to what they declared. And as a direct result of their fecklessness and the crappy and incomplete system they erected, it all fell into civil war two generations later with a million dead, and then apartheid for a century after that. We're STILL dealing with the overhang of their hypocrisy. The Revolution, given its justification, was THE moment to wipe the slate of slavery clean and do it right. The French, after all, freed THEIR slaves (and their Jews) in THEIR Revolution. We could have also, but the slavers who commanded the Revolution here did not. They betrayed their own principles and left us a freakish Frankenstein of a system, towering in its evil and hypocrisy, that could not survive scrutiny on its own principles, and that DID NOT. I am not disgraceful for telling the truth. Washington was disgraceful for having fought a revolution for freedom but then being a petty, greedy little asshole of a man - the wealthiest man in America could not bring himself to part with ownership of his slaves BECAUSE HE WAS A SMALL SPIRITED GREEDY LITTLE MAN. The system that he and his comparably hobbled and morally crippled co- conspirators, Jefferson and the Rutledge and the other rich Southern slavers who won the revolution and were the nations leaders after the war - this system collapsed of its own illogic. An "empire of freedom" with a quarter of the population chained slaves? What a joke! What a FOUL DISGRACE OF A LAND. IT NEEDED to be destroyed, and it WAS, in Civil War. Civil War was not necessary. Had the greedy little killers Washington and Jefferson and Rutledge been big men - had they been as BIG as hero-worshipping Americans make them out to be, then these shitstains of men would have taken the hit in their personal wealth and FREED THEIR OWN SLAVES in order to LIVE UP TO the principles for which they DECLARED THE RIGHT TO KILL MEN! BUT THEY DID NOT! Which means they were, IN FACT, the petty little men that I call them. The country they ripped away, so they could rule it themselves, like local Mafiosi holding men in chains, was such a ramshackle, crappy structure, so riddled with the incongruities that THEY LEFT THERE (because they were GREEDY and SMALL and would not free their slaves), that it fell apart "Four score and five" years later. Nobody spares the corrupt, evil, contemptible Renaissance popes. They did great evil when they were SUPPOSED to be stewards of Good, stewards of God. Nobody gives them any quarter, and they don't deserve any. The Declaration of Independence is a great document that declares lofty morals, indeed, perhaps the ONLY moral principles on which murderous rebellion CAN be justified. But then the drafters and ratifiers of the document DID NOT DO THAT. ALL they did was manage, with the help of the Kingdoms of France, Spain and Holland, to replace British rule with home rule. They didn't treat men as equal, ever, even during the Revolution. They didn't MEAN it. They merely SAID it as a pretext to cover over what was simply treason and insurrection. The slaves remained chained. America wasn't a free country, even colorably, until 1865. And 1865 happened because of another war, not because the SYSTEM that the Founders made worked. It didn't work. The central corruption was there for the world to see, and could not be hidden. The American Republic, with slavery, was a public disgrace from its declaration UNTIL the slaves were freed in 1865. THEN it had at least a CHANCE of being something worthy of praise. Before that? Pfffft. You say my attitude is disgraceful. But I say the country itself was disgraceful until slavery ended, and the Founders were a disgrace. And I'm right. Now you're going to bellow like idolators whose sacred cows have been gored. I'm burning idols that need to be burnt. Americans do not spare their criticism of the Popes of old, or the cardinals of the present, for the monstrous sins of the past or the pedophilia of the present. And they SHOULDN'T! For those men are goddamned disgraces in the Church of God, sullying that which was founded by Christ. I don't apologize for them. I criticize them too. And I apply the same unsparing truth and clarity to the United States, a far lesser thing of lesser importance than the Church of God and Jesus Christ.
We are winning control of the United States, its laws and institutions. You say we're not Americans. We are. And since our arrival in force, we've been changing America for the better in countless ways. We will continue to do so.
The deportation plan did not work well but Lincoln worked on it throughout the Civil War. Lincoln's goal, repeated over and over in his own words, was to produce an all White America. The time Lincoln met with the first delegation of Blacks invited to the White House is oft mentioned. Less often mentioned is what Lincoln said to the delegation. They were not wildly enthusiastic. Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865.: Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 5, pp. 370-71 Address on Colonization to a Deputation of Negroes [1] This afternoon the President of the United States gave audience to a Committee of colored men at the White House. They were introduced [371] by the Rev. J. Mitchell, Commissioner of Emigration. * * * The President—Perhaps you have long been free, or all your lives. Your race are suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong [372] inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoy. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent, not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of ours. Go where you are treated the best, and the ban is still upon you. I do not propose to discuss this, but to present it as a fact with which we have to deal. I cannot alter it if I would. It is a fact, about which we all think and feel alike, I and you. We look to our condition, owing to the existence of the two races on this continent. I need not recount to you the effects upon white men, growing out of the institution of Slavery. I believe in its general evil effects on the white race. See our present condition—the country engaged in war!—our white men cutting one another's throats, none knowing how far it will extend; and then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or the other. Nevertheless, I repeat, without the institution of Slavery and the colored race as a basis, the war could not have an existence. It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated. I know that there are free men among you, who even if they could better their condition are not as much inclined to go out of the country as those, who being slaves could obtain their freedom on this condition. I suppose one of the principal difficulties in the way of colonization is that the free colored man cannot see that his comfort would be advanced by it. You may believe you can live in Washington or elsewhere in the United States the remainder of your life [as easily], perhaps more so than you can in any foreign country, and hence you may come to the conclusion that you have nothing to do with the idea of going to a foreign country. This is (I speak in no unkind sense) an extremely selfish view of the case. * * * The first group of Blacks to visit the White House were shown in by the Rev. James Mitchell who provided his own sales pitch in addition to having Lincoln telling them that their belief that they could live anywhere in the U.S. was an extremely selfish view. Mitchell was a longtime friend of Lincoln from the American Colonization Society, of which Lincoln had been an official in Illinois. Mitchell wrote a long letter to Lincoln and was hired as Lincoln's Commissioner of Emigration. Black Emigration. The letter written by Mitchell was provided to the Government Printing Office and published as a pamphlet (at taxpayer expense). Mitchell makes David Duke look like a moderate.
They were not including anybody. They were excluding certain classes of people. Who was included was a matter of STATE law. Slaves were persons.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThey would call themselves "steamships"
#29. To: misterwhite, spinning his approval of majority rule (#18)
Vicomte13 (#10) -- "He spends a lot of time telling us how much the Founders detested democracy."
#30. To: sneakypete (#24)
Really? Have you ever tried to explain that to the Bushes,the Kennedys,the Gores,the Roosevelts,etc,etc,etc?
#31. To: tpaine (#30)
(Edited)
They're all convinced of their oligarchy type powers, -- when in reality...
#32. To: Vicomte13 (#10)
(Edited)
Nothing works for very long.
#33. To: misterwhite, Vicomte13 (#17)
"Population" refers to people. Slaves weren't people.
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
#34. To: sneakypete (#27)
There were free blacks,browns,and yellows that owned property and had voting rights in the 1700's.
#35. To: tpaine (#30)
(Edited)
Why bother? -- They're all convinced of their oligarchy type powers, -- when in reality, if they ever seriously tried to exercise them, they would be (figuratively speaking) shot down. -- Ahem....
#36. To: nolu chan (#34)
There were free blacks,browns,and yellows that owned property and had voting rights in the 1700's.
#37. To: sneakypete, nolu chan (#36)
(Edited)
he number of free black slaveholders would start to rise again only after legislation in 1782 allowed emancipation by deed or will. According to Schwarz (1987), legal and political conditions changed dramatically by 1806, making it necessary for many free blacks to hold slaves to assure their own continued residence in Virginia. Anxious over the increasing presence of unenslaved and harder to control blacks, legislators decided that future beneficiaries of emancipation would have to leave the commonwealth within twelve months of their change of status or else be reenslaved and sold for the benefit of the poor whites. This forced the former slaves to acquire new skills for doing business on their own, which obliged some of them to buy a work force in the form of slaves (Schwarz, 1987). After 1832, blacks could acquire no more slaves except spouses, children or those gained by descent. The Code of 1849 added parents to these exceptions, but in 1858, "acting in an atmosphere of sectional crisis and perhaps emboldened by the United States Supreme Court's pronouncement against black citizenship in Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857), the legislature took away what little security free blacks might hope to give to relatives in the future" (Schwarz, 1987, p. 332). Thus black Virginians could no longer buy family members. These changes occurred throughout the United States with some differences by state.
#38. To: sneakypete (#35)
Well,a few of them were shot down,but it had nothing to do with a free America.
BTW,just because something isn't official that doesn't mean it isn't real.
#39. To: sneakypete (#36)
Do you have any links? I don't doubt your accuracy,but would like to be able to refer others to links when I repeat that and they start demanding proof.
The People. — When the term the people is made use of in constitutional law or discussions, it is often the case that those only are intended who have a share in the government through being clothed with the elective franchise. Thus, the people elect delegates to a constitutional convention, and determine by their votes whether the completed work of the convention shall or shall not be adopted; the people choose the officers under the constitution, and so on. For these and similar purposes the electors, though constituting but a small minority of the whole body of the community, nevertheless act for all, and, as being for the time the representatives of sovereignty, they are considered and spoken of as the sovereign people. But in all the enumerations and guaranties of rights the whole people are intended, because the rights of all are equal, and are meant to be equally protected. In this case, therefore, the right to assemble is preserved to all the people, and not merely to the electors, or to any other class or classes of the people.
Belva Ann Bennett Lockwood (October 24, 1830 – May 19, 1917) was an American attorney, politician, educator, and author. She was active in working for women's rights. The press of her day referred to her as a "suffragist," someone who believed in women's suffrage or voting rights. Lockwood overcame many social and personal obstacles related to gender restrictions. After college, she became a teacher and principal, working to equalize pay for women in education.[1] She supported the movement for world peace, and was a proponent of temperance.
In 1884 she accepted the nomination of the National Equal Rights Party and ran for president. Although suffrage leaders opposed her candidacy, Lockwood saw it as an entering wedge for women. She polled over 4,000 votes and ran again in 1888.
American women did not receive the right to vote until 1920, right? This is a common misconception. A century and a half before the constitutional amendment granting all U.S. women the right to vote, women in New Jersey participated in elections for over thirty-one years. In 1776, the New Jersey Constitution ruled, “all inhabitants of this colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds…and have resided in the county, in which they claim a vote for twelve months…shall be entitled to vote.” ((Laws of the State of New Jersey. 1821. Reprint, Trenton: The Authority of the Legislature, 1776))
New Jersey Constitution of 1776 (in effect in 1792 and until 1844)
IV. That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large.
North Carolina Constitution, 1776
The Constitution or Form of Government
Slaves, manumitted here, became freemen, and therefore, if born within North Carolina, are citizens of North Carolina, and all free persons born within the State are born citizens of the State.
#40. To: misterwhite (#17)
#41. To: sneakypete (#25)
#42. To: Vicomte13 (#41)
Words mean things, and the word "free" doesn't include slavery.
#43. To: sneakypete (#42)
Don't tell me,tell the Pope.
#44. To: Vicomte13 (#43)
Don't tell me,tell the Pope.
#45. To: sneakypete (#44)
Nothing,but Popes have had a lot to do with slavery.
#46. To: Vicomte13 (#45)
Would that Americans were as honest with themselves as Catholics are.
#47. To: Vicomte13 (#40)
"Oh, and the Founders recognized that the slaves were people and property. That's why they included them in the census."
#48. To: Vicomte13 (#40)
"Today's society is better than the society of the Founders. Yes, I'll tell you that."
#49. To: nolu chan (#33)
"The slaves were considered persons."
#50. To: sneakypete (#46)
Thank you for admitting that Catholics aren't Americans.
#51. To: misterwhite (#48)
(Edited)
That when voters were limited to those with the most to lose, it was a fairer system.
#52. To: misterwhite (#49)
And, technically, they were "other persons". They had no more rights than a table or chair.
#53. To: Vicomte13 (#52)
"Which is why that system and its culture had to be destroyed."
#54. To: Vicomte13, misterwhite, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#52)
(Edited)
Nolu Chan --- "The slaves were considered persons."
#55. To: misterwhite (#49)
Only for the apportionment of representatives and direct taxes.
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.
No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.
No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.
#56. To: tpaine (#54)
To reiterate, Walter Williams points remain unrefuted: ----
#57. To: misterwhite, Vicomte13 (#53)
The plan was to free the slaves and deport them to Liberia, an idea Lincoln supported. He died before he had a chance to implement it.
#58. To: Vicomte13 (#56)
--- what the Founders set up, their Republic, WAS a horrendous tyranny. When a quarter of the population of a country are chained slaves, that country is a monstrous joke of a nation, hideously evil and worthy of destruction, not something to be PROUD of.
#59. To: nolu chan (#57)
#60. To: nolu chan (#57)
"Deportation to Liberia was physically impossible as was explained to Lincoln."
#61. To: Vicomte13 (#50)
Oh, but we are. And we're winning.
#62. To: tpaine (#54)
To reiterate, Walter Williams points remain unrefuted: ----
#63. To: nolu chan (#55)
"Technically, they were persons. Free persons were persons. Women were persons. Poor persons were persons. Indentured servants were persons. Indians not taxed were persons. All other persons were persons."
#64. To: tpaine, Vicomte13 (#58)
Your attitude towards our country is disgraceful.
#65. To: tpaine (#58)
Your attitude towards our country is disgraceful.
#66. To: sneakypete (#61)
Winning what?
#67. To: Vicomte13 (#59)
The plan was wicked. Civil war was a better option.
August 14, 1862
#68. To: misterwhite (#63)
"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen", they were including slaves?
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