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Title: European Union Fails–Nationalism Surging, Multiculturalism Dying
Source: VDare
URL Source: http://www.vdare.com/articles/is-the-european-union-dying
Published: Mar 13, 2015
Author: Pat Buchanan
Post Date: 2015-03-13 10:25:44 by nativist nationalist
Keywords: None
Views: 12208
Comments: 73

As the European Coal and Steel Community of Jean Monnet evolved into the EU, we were told a “United States of Europe” was at hand, modeled on the USA. And other countries and continents will inevitably follow Europe’s example.

There will be a North American Union of the U.S., Canada and Mexico, and a Latin America Union of the Mercosur trade partnership.

In an essay, “The E.U. Experiment Has Failed,” Bruce Thornton of Hoover Institution makes the case that the verdict is in, the dream is dead, the EU is unraveling, One Europe is finished.

Consider, first, economics. In 2013, Europe grew by 1 percent compared to the U.S.’s 2.2 percent. In December, unemployment in Europe was 11.4 percent. In the U.S., 5.6 percent. Americans are alarmed by the lowest labor force participation rate since Reagan, 62.7 percent. In Europe, in 2013, it was 57.5 percent.

Europeans may wail over German-imposed “austerity,” but the government share of Europe’s GDP has gone from 45 percent in 2008 to 49 percent today. In Greece, it is 59 percent.

Most critical is the demographic crisis. For a nation to survive, its women must produce on average 2.1 children. Europe has not seen that high a fertility rate in 40 years. Today, it is down to 1.6 children.

Europeans are an aging, shrinking, disappearing, dying race.

And the places of Europe’s unborn are being filled by growing “concentrations of unassimilated and disaffected Muslim immigrants, segregated in neighborhoods like the banlieues of Paris or the satellite ‘dish cities’ of Amsterdam.

“Shut out from labor markets, plied with generous social welfare payments and allowed to cultivate beliefs and cultural practices inimical to democracy, many of these immigrants despise their new homes, and find the religious commitment and certainty of radical Islam an attractive alternative.”

“Some turn to terrorism,” like the French-Algerian brothers who carried out the slaughter at the magazine Charlie Hebdo.

“Such violence,” writes Thornton, “along with cultural practices like honor killings, forced marriages and polygamy … are stoking a political backlash against Muslims.”

Populist parties are surging–the U.K. Independence Party in Britain, the National Front in France, and now the “Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the Occident,” PEGIDA, in Germany, These parties will soon be strong enough to enter governments, impose restrictions on immigration and demand assimilation.

Then the cultural conflicts may turn violent.

A fundamental question has troubled European unification since the Treaty of Rome in 1957, writes Thornton: “What comprises the collective beliefs of and values that can form the foundations of a genuine European-wide community? What is it that all Europeans believe?

“Europe and its nations were forged in the matrix of ideas, ideals, and beliefs of Christianity, which gives divine sanction to notions like human rights, the sanctity of the individual, political freedom and equality. Today across Europe Christian belief is a shadow of its former self.

“Fewer and fewer Europeans regularly go to Church. … It is common for many European cathedrals to have more tourists during a service than parishioners. … This process of secularization–already well advanced in 1887 when Nietzsche famously said, ‘God is no more than a faded word today, not even a concept’–is nearly complete today, leaving Europe without its historical principle of unity.”

Political religions–communism, fascism, Nazism–are substitute gods that failed. “Nor has secular social democracy … provided people with a transcendent principle that justifies sacrifice for the greater good, or even gives people a reason to reproduce.

“A shared commitment to leisure, a short workweek, and a generous social safety net is nothing worth killing or dying for.”

And who will die for Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea?

Pacifism beckons. Every major European nation in NATO–Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland–will see defense spending in 2015 below 2 percent of GDP.

The idea of One Europe has depended on “the denigration of patriotism and national pride,” writes Thornton, “Yet all peoples are the products of a particular culture, language, mores, traditions, histories, landscapes. … That sense of belonging to a community defined by a shared identity cannot be created by a single currency.”

Christianity gave Europe its faith, identity, purpose and will to conquer and convert the world. Christianity created Europe. And the death of Christianity leaves the continent with no unifying principle save a watery commitment to democracy and La Dolce Vita.

From Marine Le Pen’s France to Putin’s Russia, nationalism and patriotism are surging across Europe because peoples, deprived of or disbelieving in the old faith, want a new faith to give meaning, purpose, vitality to their lives, something to live for, fight for, die for.

Countless millions of Muslims have found in their old faith their new faith. And the descendants of fallen-away European Christians of the 19th and 20th centuries are finding their new faith in old tribal and national identities.

Less and less does multiculturalism look like the wave of the future.

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#1. To: nativist nationalist (#0) (Edited)

Western Civilization committed suicide.

By abandoning Christian beliefs about sex and turning full throttle to birth control in order to permit near-universal pre-marital sex, Americans and Europeans killed the perceived need for marriage.

By turning to abortion as the safety net to catch the unwanted pregnancies that result when birth control failed, the Westerners accelerated the birth rate collapse.

Now, sex, childbearing and marriage are completely decoupled. Men and women don't marry, and don't have kids.

This is not a European thing - it's in the US and Canada too. The whole white world is dying out, because the whites have abandoned God and marriage and childbearing for material wealth and sexual pleasure.

Nor is there any willingness to go back.

Which means that Europe will be populated by Middle Easterners (who seem likely to remain Islamic), and the US and Canada will be populated by Latinos, while Australia is populated by Indonesians and Malay.

A whole culture, the White culture, is fatally addicted to sexual sin. And it is dying out everywhere as the direct result. The wages of sin is death.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   11:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: nativist nationalist (#0)

For a nation to survive, its women must produce on average 2.1 children. Europe has not seen that high a fertility rate in 40 years. Today, it is down to 1.6 children.

Europeans are an aging, shrinking, disappearing, dying race.

The only practical solution to that problem is to shut down cheap immigrant labor,deport the ones already there,and thereby create enough job openings that wages rise and one partner in a marriage can afford to stay home and take care of the children.

This,of course,means putting all the femi-nazi's in higher education out to pasture. Maybe even working in the fields like a male field hand to prove their equality. Do this and then start spreading the message that motherhood and fathehood are noble career fields that are morally fulfilling and of equal value to the nation as any other career.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if it is the mother or the father that stays home,but children damn sure need one of them there to make sure they go off to school,and to be home to greet them when they get home from school so they can monitor their activities and let the kids know there is somebody that cares and is watching them. Day cares do NOT provide the psychological of an actual parent the child knows they can go to 24/7 for comfort or help.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   14:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

By abandoning Christian beliefs about sex and turning full throttle to birth control in order to permit near-universal pre-marital sex,

HorseHillary!

The biggest effect of birth control is it loosened the death grip the Catholic Church had on society,and that was one of the best things that ever happened to mankind.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   14:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: nativist nationalist, redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#0)

Pacifism beckons. Every major European nation in NATO–Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland–will see defense spending in 2015 below 2 percent of GDP.

I read today that Britain, following Greece's example, will meet its 2% NATO defense spending obligation by choosing to count military pensions as defense spending. Some creative accounting there.

Putin and ISIS will be shaking in their boots at the thought of the Brits unleashing their pensions on the battlefield.

Dissolve NATO now. It's a bad joke, thoroughly rotten.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-13   14:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: TooConservative (#4)

Dissolve NATO now. It's a bad joke, thoroughly rotten.

Western European NATO nations do provide a good amount of AF assets and logistics to the alliance. Ground troops? The Brits are the only ones I would trust to be able to guard a flank.

Other than that they send a bunch of higher up staff officers to fill a command post to give it an 'alliance air." The US and Brit officers end up doing all the staff work with the NATO higher ups as figure heads.

Other than a few other 'specialized areas' of expertise (like the Italians with law enforcement training and experience with national criminal elements) not much added.

The US needs NATO to justify POEs and PODs and expeditionary launch sites.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-13   15:33:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: TooConservative (#5)

Western European NATO nations do provide a good amount of AF assets and logistics to the alliance. Ground troops? The Brits are the only ones I would trust to be able to guard a flank.

Other than that they send a bunch of higher up staff officers to fill a command post to give it an 'alliance air." The US and Brit officers end up doing all the staff work with the NATO higher ups as figure heads.

Other than a few other 'specialized areas' of expertise (like the Italians with law enforcement training and experience with national criminal elements) not much added.

The US needs NATO to justify POEs and PODs and expeditionary launch sites.

Not to mention the Ally nations in NATO need to send a memo to their officers about bathing every so often and of the invention of underarm deoderant.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-13   15:34:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: sneakypete (#3) (Edited)

The biggest effect of birth control is it loosened the death grip the Catholic Church had on society

The Catholic Church? The Catholic Church has never had a "death grip" on THIS society. We Catholics have never even been a quarter of the population.

In 1948, 22% of the US population identified itself as Catholic. In 2011, 23% did.

Catholics never had a grip on this society at all! We have always been massively outnumbered, and the Protestants historically used to hate our guts. They actively sought to suppress us and even oppress us at various points, all the way back to English settlement.

The notion that Catholics ever had a "death grip" on this overwhelmingly Protestant society is idiotic. We've never even been the majority in one single STATE, let alone more than about a fifth of the population anywhere.

Your rabid hatred of Catholics and ascribing of vast powers to us, given our small numbers in your society, sounds like 1930s Germans blaming all of their cultural stupidity and military failures on the Jews.

However, this IS all changing. Because, you see senor, thanks to this birth control you love, "the most wonderful thing ever to happen", your white American women stopped having babies. And then your courts imposed abortion as goalie for the failures of contraception. And that tore a 50 million man hole in your demographics.

Now, because you Protestants have always believed in the "Elect", and always believed yourself to BE "The Elect", you've always looked down on poor people and manual labor, and you've consistently refused to pay a living wage.

The demographic effect of the birth control and abortion you love is to tear a manpower hole, which inevitably, through the law of supply and demand, would have driven up the wages of working Americans to a high level.

But you Proddies never want to pay mere common folk anything like living wages. So what did you do? You opened the border to Mexicans, and you shipped manufacturing off to China. That way you didn't have to pay the wages that your killing off of your own people's future inevitably would have driven upward.

In this, you succeeded gloriously. The white middle and working class has been impoverished and driven into instability, and they have few babies. The Mexicans are burgeoning because you've imported them for that cheap labor. The Chinese are paid enough by America every year to build a new aircraft carrier or a bevy of submarines every year, year after year.

You've weakened your demographics and your nation because you just hate paying poorer people better wages, and because you want sex without consequences.

So now your FUTURE is Catholic, Mexican Catholic. And ain't that a bitch. Ha!

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   15:46:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7) (Edited)

The biggest effect of birth control is it loosened the death grip the Catholic Church had on society

The Catholic Church? The Catholic Church has never had a "death grip" on THIS society. We Catholics have never even been a quarter of the population.

Uhhhhh,the thread is about Europe.

Are you seriously trying to claim the Cahtolic Church has never had a death grip on European society and cultures?

One of the prime reasons so many Europeans wanted to come to America was they were tired of having the Pope's foot on their necks.

Your rabid hatred of Catholics and ascribing of vast powers to us, given our small numbers in your society, sounds like 1930s Germans blaming all of their cultural stupidity and military failures on the Jews.

"weeze vic-tums! Vic-tums I tells ya!"

The truth is the Catholic Church historically has had a lot more in common with the Nazi's than the Jews,and no amount of spinning on your part can change that.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   18:39:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: redleghunter (#5) (Edited)

The US needs NATO to justify POEs and PODs and expeditionary launch sites.

It isn't worth it unless you think the Bear is going to rampage through Europe.

Which it won't because it can't hold off its southern Muslim flank and occupy Europe at the same time. Not enough Russians to go around even if Russian civvies were interested in mass conscription. And in a few years, Europe will be no more than another Muslim front for Russia to face.

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose. It actually seems to weaken Europe's ability to have a military worth talking about.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-13   19:43:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: sneakypete (#8)

Are you seriously trying to claim the Cahtolic Church has never had a death grip on European society and cultures?

A "death grip"? No. The Catholic Church has been the most civilizing influence in human history. It has saved more lives, and souls, than any other human organization.

Certainly it had greater influence, back in the day.

Certainly there were terrible abuses of power, and there were a lot of really corrupt and shitty Popes and bishops. Humans are fallible, even in the Church

The history is marred, to be sure, but it has on balance been overwhelmingly good.

The Church used to be the most authoritative force in Europe, of that there is no doubt. But that was a life grip, not a death grip.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   19:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: TooConservative (#9)

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose.

It enriches US defense contractors through transfer payments...from the taxpayers' pockets into theirs.

That is the purpose of our presence in Europe, and given that purpose, its mission has been incredibly successful.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   19:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: sneakypete (#8)

One of the prime reasons so many Europeans wanted to come to America was they were tired of having the Pope's foot on their necks.

Curious, then, that the greatest source of immigration to early America was Protestant English and Protestant Scots and Protestant Irish. The Catholic Irish came next, to get away from the English Protestant boot on their neck.

The English and Scots were migrating from PROTESTANT countries, not Catholic.

The Dutch who settled New York were PROTESTANTS, from a PROTESTANT country, not Catholics.

Then the Germans, who settled everywhere and who are both Protestant AND Catholic.

The French, sitting in their Catholic country, didn't immigrate much.

Much later came the Italians, and they came in the age of the secular Italian Republic, when the Pope was a prisoner in the Vatican and there was no Catholic "boot on the neck" of anybody.

You hate the Catholic Church with such a blind rage that you have made up a whole alternate history which is nothing but utter bullshit.

There is no substantial portion of the population of the United States or Canada that came to either place fleeing the Pope or Catholicism.

The Puritans who came to New England were fleeing an oppressive PROTESANT government. The only substantial Catholic presence in America before the Irish Catholic fled Protestant tyranny in Ireland were the French, and they came over AS Catholics, to a very Catholic, monarchical France, New France, and were stubbornly and tenaciously Catholic long after English conquest. In fact, the English crown was forced to concede their religion to them as the PRICE of holding onto them at all. That's what the Quebec Act of 1774 was all about: you stay peaceably within the British Empire, and we'll respect your religious traditions and leave you alone and not permit the discriminatory Protestant anti-Catholic laws of the British Empire to apply in Quebec. The Catholic French accepted that deal, and stayed with the British even when the Americans declared their independence.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   19:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

It enriches US defense contractors through transfer payments...from the taxpayers' pockets into theirs.

That is the purpose of our presence in Europe, and given that purpose, its mission has been incredibly successful.

Successful, maybe. It has mostly weakened Europe as anything more than a producer of consumer goods and an increasingly class-based social system with limited chances for advancement.

Certainly it hasn't been wise. It increases public debt to no purpose and dilutes our military strength.

The EU keeps stringing us along. We need to give them an ultimatum: "If you want a NATO, do the spending and recruit the necessary manpower. Otherwise, so long, Pierre."

"Keep the Russians out and the Americans in" is no longer a sound basis for any alliance with the EU countries.

We need to demand that NATO countries make the sacrifices needed to bring forces back to the levels we saw at the end of the Cold War. Otherwise, we should just dump NATO completely.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-13   20:09:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: TooConservative (#13)

We need to demand that NATO countries make the sacrifices needed to bring forces back to the levels we saw at the end of the Cold War. Otherwise, we should just dump NATO completely.

The NATO countries won't.

They won't because, in some cases (Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal) they can't financially.

In Germany's case, they can't because of ghosts and demons.

In France's and Britain's case, they don't need to: nuclear weapons safeguard them.

The only difference is that the French know they don't need to, and so spend their military money on things explicitly designed to maintain their power over their former colonies. France's military is mostly deployable and maritime, and is built for neo-colonial work. The force-de-frappe is what would stop the Soviets from crossing the Rhine. (Diplomacy and weakness is what would stop the Russians from ever GETTING TO the Rhine.)

The British try harder to be America's poodle, and manage to convince some portion of their population that Britain is "significant" and that NATO is really something to worry about. But the British are alone in this.

The French and British are the only two INTERNATIONAL powers (besides the USA) in NATO, and if the British are sometimes blind as to the real lack of threat, the French aren't. The other Europeans also don't really perceive a threat, but even if they did are too small or poor or...emotionally crippled (Germany)...to do anything about it.

Truth is, in a shooting war the way you stop Russians (or Americans) is with nuclear weapons, not conventional forces.

France knows that conventional forces are to keep firm control of African and Pacific Ocean oil fields and nickel mines, not to defend NATO.

The British don't know much, which is why they're such a lost child.

The Americans know that NATO is the only justification for America to continue to pretend to itself that it's "defending" anything, and thus NEEDS the huge international imperial establishment. Lots of Americans, including those high up, have persuaded themselves that this is true, but it's really just self- interest and hubris talking. The British have played along with it for so long that they do it atavistically, out of habit. The rest of Europe doesn't matter, except for France, and France knows that the Russian threat...to France...is completely nonexistent.

If the US left Europe, Portions of the Ukraine would be rapidly reassimilated into Russia, and that would be that.

The weaker border countries (the Balts) would stop being antagonistic to the Russians and would be "Finlandized". The Poles would be pointlessly antagonistic, and damage their economy and hold back their own progress by maintain an excessively large and pointless military.

The Germans would continue to die out in their existential despair.

And the French would go on maintaining their overseas neo-colonial empire.

That's the best answer for America, because we're broke. Unfortunately the massive loss of prestige and perception of power would be too great for most American decision-makers to stand. So instead we're going to sit in Europe spending billions "defending" nothing, because no threat exists.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-13   20:23:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Vicomte13, *Humor* (#10)

The Catholic Church has been the most civilizing influence in human history.

ROFLMAO!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   20:52:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13, A Pole, Pericles (#14)

If the US left Europe, Portions of the Ukraine would be rapidly reassimilated into Russia, and that would be that.

And northwest Ukraine would rejoin southern Poland.

The weaker border countries (the Balts) would stop being antagonistic to the Russians and would be "Finlandized". The Poles would be pointlessly antagonistic, and damage their economy and hold back their own progress by maintain an excessively large and pointless military.

I think the Poles would rapidly read the tea leaves. Their bellicosity is directly due to how much they think they can hide behind NATO's (America's) skirts.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-13   20:59:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#12)

Curious, then, that the greatest source of immigration to early America was Protestant English and Protestant Scots and Protestant Irish.

What's curious about it? They wanted to get away from the freaking Catholics.

The Catholic Irish came next, to get away from the English Protestant boot on their neck.

No,to get away from starvation. Unfortunately,they brought their evil religion with them when they came.

The English and Scots were migrating from PROTESTANT countries, not Catholic.

Yeah,cause neither England nor Scotland had ever been Catholic countries,huh?

It was the Catholics that poisoned the Christian well,and nobody else. Not saying any of the other Christian cults were totally blameless,but they were more in the line of occasional troublesome children compared to the Jeffrey Domer that was and is the Catholic Church.

The only thing that keeps the Catholic Church from being the most evil organization in all of history was the emergence of Islam,and even they were only marginally more evil from a historical viewpoint.

You hate the Catholic Church with such a blind rage that you have made up a whole alternate history which is nothing but utter bullshit.

While you are a practicing Catholic propagandist and therefore an established expert on bullshit,you are wrong about this and it is YOU that is promoting alternative history.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   21:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: nativist nationalist (#0)

Political religions–communism, fascism, Nazism–are substitute gods that failed. “Nor has secular social democracy … provided people with a transcendent principle that justifies sacrifice for the greater good, or even gives people a reason to reproduce.

“A shared commitment to leisure, a short workweek, and a generous social safety net is nothing worth killing or dying for.”

And who will die for Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea?

Pacifism beckons. Every major European nation in NATO–Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland–will see defense spending in 2015 below 2 percent of GDP.

Pat Buchanan hits another homerun based on the contents of this brilliant article!

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   21:14:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: buckeroo (#18)

Hey bucky! I haven't seen you in two months of Sundays.

Best wishes.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-13   21:57:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Western Civilization committed suicide.

By abandoning Christian beliefs about sex and turning full throttle to birth control in order to permit near-universal pre-marital sex, Americans and Europeans killed the perceived need for marriage.

You postulate a perspective and support it. Congratulations! But you fail to perform root cause analysis in a meaningful way. Generally, you claim the issues are fundamentally rooted in human sexual adventure but limited to or based on contemporary techniques of sexual contraception.

My perspective is that changes in all social, economic and cultural (including religious activities) occured with the US manufactured atomic bomb that precipitated the end of WW2. The later social frenzy about the end of mankind due to REAL (not apparent) activities for complete annihilation of mankind created a vast divide about the purpose of mankind for social views of individual + self identifiacation. You might say, individualism slipped a notch; awareness of "religion" slipped several notches; while sensual pleasures was buoyed into infinites notches on an imaginative, social yardstick concerning the phenomenal changes to ourselves and about ourselves. You suggest "SEX" was a driving force and continuing dynamic whereas I suggest the "ATOMIC BOMB" created the social changes about modern sexual activities that have you worried about a weak argument.

To put a comment clearly to you, you are "off base" and not even close to understanding the root cause of change either in Europe or the USA.

By turning to abortion as the safety net to catch the unwanted pregnancies that result when birth control failed, the Westerners accelerated the birth rate collapse.

You address symptoms of the social phenomena and not any root cause.

Now, sex, childbearing and marriage are completely decoupled. Men and women don't marry, and don't have kids.

This phenomena between men and women hasn't occured NOW; it has always BEEN, in all of mankind's history no matter the culture or geography around the world. It seems you cannot address the reasons for the social change about marriage or children in the highly accelerated social environment from 1945 to now; the phenomenal growth curve is non-linear all around the world.

This is not a European thing - it's in the US and Canada too. The whole white world is dying out, because the whites have abandoned God and marriage and childbearing for material wealth and sexual pleasure.

Nope. There is a decline of child bearing in western nations but it is not predicated on your apparent reasoning.

Nor is there any willingness to go back.

Nope. Not necessarily true. Mankind has developed an enigma for itself. We are killing ourselves by phenomenal technical capabilities beyond even our own control; a basic conceptual development is simple to understand: why have children if war around the world is continuing and we face the brink of diesasters with every day news broadcasts reaffirming these marvels? Isn't the simple solution to migrate from a mythical God to a nice, benevolent government that gives social relief?

Which means that Europe will be populated by Middle Easterners (who seem likely to remain Islamic), and the US and Canada will be populated by Latinos, while Australia is populated by Indonesians and Malay.

You remind me of someone that doesn't understand the difference between cancer and a minor skin infection, very similar to US politics.

A whole culture, the White culture, is fatally addicted to sexual sin. And it is dying out everywhere as the direct result. The wages of sin is death.

Do you read what you (personally) author? Oh .... the irony.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: TooConservative (#4)

Putin and ISIS will be shaking in their boots at the thought of the Brits unleashing their pensions on the battlefield.

That is one HELL of a phunney remarck.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:34:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

The notion that Catholics ever had a "death grip" on this overwhelmingly Protestant society is idiotic.

Man, you are almost replete with total lafter tonite. Of course, I must confess that you are unknowing about the thirty years' war; ever read about that little war? A minor detail in history, correct?

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

The Church used to be the most authoritative force in Europe, of that there is no doubt. But that was a life grip, not a death grip.

Your fine and Holy Catholic Church caused the backlash of the Protestant divide. Of course, Martin Luther died, so you can't ask him a question about the sexual perversion the Catholic religion commonly imposed on the common man.

Let us turn to some Gregorian Chants for you as as direct Catholic Priests were responsible for the deaths of thousands of little children, women and men during their personal lusts. I can't find any at the moment.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#15)

Vicomte13: The Catholic Church has been the most civilizing influence in human history.

sneakypete: ROFLMAO!

I wanted to add a blurb but found myself considering that not much more can be said but a laff or two.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:56:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: TooConservative (#16)

I think the Poles would rapidly read the tea leaves. Their bellicosity is directly due to how much they think they can hide behind NATO's (America's) skirts.

Excellent analysis. However, I want to say that the amount of absorption is directly linked to America's USD vs. Euro. America is truly KING for the day over global money markets.

Take a cruize and enjoy yourself while saving the contents of your bank account; you deserve a family treat based on political position about the international economies.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   23:08:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Fred Mertz (#19)

Heya, Fred!

Lots of good things are still happening in my life and I continuously shall hope the same for yourself. I read your posts from time to time so, I know you are alive & kickin'. I just checked some Internet posts from 1998-1999 that you and I exchanged from several channels such as FR; some are captured on my servers from my ol' days of running bots.

Somehow, we are abandoned but not forgotten! "Vigilance" is not about agreement about phenomena surrounding our lives but the dynamics of changing the world for the good characteristics that we individually know or even consider. Never acquiesce!

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   23:23:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: TooConservative (#9)

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose. It actually seems to weaken Europe's ability to have a military worth talking about.

I don't entirely agree. Some of our most critical logistical support centers are in Europe. Thus my comment about POEs and PODs.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-14   0:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#14)

Instructive post.

A Pole  posted on  2015-03-14   4:38:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: redleghunter (#27) (Edited)

Some of our most critical logistical support centers are in Europe.

They're very pricey outposts. We could do the same much cheaper elsewhere.

We just like lording it over the European provinces. As to the EU contributing to our defense capabilities, they're far more trouble and expense than they're worth.

The EU militaries are mostly useful for parading down boulevards on holidays to impress the crowds so they feel relevant. About as phony as the British royal family but much more expensive.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-14   6:43:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: buckeroo (#23)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago. I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

I don't really wonder. But it would be interesting to see you twist around trying to distinguish the two cases.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:39:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: buckeroo (#22)

The 30 Years War? Yes indeed, a tragic disaster, brought about by violent, unyielding men on both sides of the religious divide.

That was twice as far back in history as American slavery. So if it's ok to hate the Catholics for the Thirty Years War, so very long ago, I presume you think that Blacks are justified for hating the South for things that happened 150 years ago, yes?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: buckeroo (#20)

You think the atomic bomb, all by itself, a technical change, is the cause of the collapse of Christian morality in the world?

You have a lot of faith in technology, buckeroo.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago. I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

Bloody Mary had my 15th great-grandfather beheaded and quartered, but I don't hate her. As a matter of fact I hope she repented before her death.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-03-14   10:21:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago.

My sense of outright indignation about the Catholic church is not limited to about 600 years ago. My contempt extends all the way back to the origins of Christian theology as organized by the Catholic religion, about 2K years ago. So, you are short sighted to say the least.

I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

I could care less; your question is not relevent to the discussion.

I don't really wonder. But it would be interesting to see you twist around trying to distinguish the two cases.

You wonder and then proclaim you don't wonder; chatting about "twisting around." My, my my.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:02:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

The 30 Years War? Yes indeed, a tragic disaster, brought about by violent, unyielding men on both sides of the religious divide.

Religious divide? What was the mandate that Martin Luther declared concerning the Catholic religion? He stated the abosolute truth when he found representatives of the "church" fucking women at any time they pleased, drinking liquer at all times of the day and stealing money from the common people.

And you adhere to a well-documented tradition of bullshit?

That was twice as far back in history as American slavery. So if it's ok to hate the Catholics for the Thirty Years War, so very long ago, I presume you think that Blacks are justified for hating the South for things that happened 150 years ago, yes?

Nope. Catholic doctrines and influences extend all the way back to creation of the DARK AGES of mankind; just a couple of centuries after Jesus Christ died.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

You think the atomic bomb, all by itself, a technical change, is the cause of the collapse of Christian morality in the world?

No question about it. The world changed dramatically after the results of mass weaponry held in the hands of a few men at a time of world war. Of course, the prayers to God have been almost zero ever since.

You have a lot of faith in technology, buckeroo.

More than some traditional, religious freakoizoid show masked in massive death around the world provided by a tyrantical church centered in Rome.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: TooConservative (#4)

Dissolve NATO now. It's a bad joke, thoroughly rotten.

It was a failure in 1961 when using the criteria Eisenhower gave in 1951, when he stated that if American troops were in Europe in ten years time then NATO would have been a failure. And that was a half century ago!

NATO has gone from a waste of resources to being an actual liability to the United States. Our European "allies" dragged us into the Balkans and helped to sour our relationship with Russia, to the benefit of China. And their intervention Libya opened up a can of worms.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:46:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: TooConservative (#9)

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose. It actually seems to weaken Europe's ability to have a military worth talking about.

Very true. We are to good of an ally, and we end up with allies that are not worth having.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#12)

The Puritans who came to New England were fleeing an oppressive PROTESANT government.

The Puritans were just as tyrannical, witness Cromwell, and Roger Williams had to flee their religious haven. The English upper class created a society that offered nothing for the vast majority other than a miserable subsistence. And the Church of England was one of their instruments, they drove a lot of the Scots-Irish to American shores. Cornwallis once observed during our revolutionary war that what he really had on his hands was a Presbyterian insurrection in the Piedmont.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#14)

The Germans would continue to die out in their existential despair.

Germany is the wild card. I recall an economist who famously observed that unsustainable trends tend not to be sustained in the long term. A hundred years ago China was counted as being down and out. Our absence from NATO might be just the thing to help them recover their national spirit.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   16:03:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: buckeroo (#18)

Pat Buchanan hits another homerun based on the contents of this brilliant article!

He did. To bad he was not elected in 2000, he was the best guy on the ballot.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   16:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: redleghunter (#5)

The US needs NATO to justify POEs and PODs...

What are POEs and PODs?

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   18:34:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: nativist nationalist (#42)

Ports of entry

Ports of departure

An "A" before it would be air and and "S" by sea.

APOE APOD SPOD SPOE

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-14   19:23:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: nativist nationalist (#40)

Germany is more of a dead duck than a wild card. A fertility rate of 1.4 - worst in Europe, and one of the very worst in the world. They're dying out and being replaced by Turks.

Germany is, all in all, a pretty wretched model.

The Germans have a fetish for the "Rule of Law", to the point that they over regulate everything. They have no sense of humor about it, and insist on rigid adherence to the law (other countries have a lot of law and rules, but are more "supple" about really enforcing everything to its ridiculous extreme, but the Germans have no "off switch" and no common-sense override when it comes to their concept of the rigid rule of law. Think of those American schools that suspend Kindergartners for going "bang" with their fingers, or for chewing their cheese sandwich "into the shape of a gun", and now make that a whole country's legal system about everything, and you have Germany.) It's a miserable way to exist, and the Germans are incapable of getting out of their own way. They've ALWAYS been this way, but before the pill it wasn't killing them. Now, though, it is. Now, their drive for wealth and achievement is very uniform, it is uniformly unattainable at the levels they want it, and therefore, lock-step, they all postpone childbirth, all don't get married…and are all vanishing as a race.

Germany is aging and not reproducing. The wild card is that Germany's economy cannot continue to grow, and must shrink and slowly die unless the Germans import millions. They are: Turks, but the people they're importing don't have German notions of law, and never will, so the Germans hate that and resist the immigration…ineffectually because they can't band together AGAINST any group of people, given their famously successful history of doing that.

Germany is a nation without a future and without hope.

The countries in Europe with the brightest future (and it's not all that bright) are the ones that have the best birth rates. France and Sweden. They have the best birth rates because they massively subsidize child-rearing. Of course a lot of those births are foreign or immigrants, but the native birth rate is higher there too. France and Sweden are not at replacement rate in that regard, but they're closer than anywhere else.

Obviously there is no way in hell for the British to do anything like this: the British will accept confiscatory taxes (they already pay them) but they WON'T accept broad aid to families. It's too…COMMON, too…SOFT on people, and the British really hate people down the social scale from themselves.

The Italians, Spanish, Portuguese and Greeks cannot do anything like this, because they don't have the economic strength to be able to sustain it. The Scandinavians can, and the Dutch and Flemish, and they might.

The Germans…well, the Germans COULD do it. Germans don't have the utter contempt for people beneath them that British do, so the Germans COULD start financing childbirth and childrearing like Scandinavians and French do. But it would cost them very dearly, and it would tug down individual prosperity. And let's face it, if you're living in a miserable place like Germany, with miserable Germans as neighbors…one giant Homeowners Association of a country…it's really HARD to turn away from greed and obsession with the things they're already obsessed with.

I doubt they will.

So, I'd say that Western Europe will end up, over time, being more and more Scandinavian and French, simply because the Scandinavians and French already HAVE invested vast sums in developing vast programs to increase the fertility rate, and they already HAVE had success, so much so that France will be the most populous country in Europe again, surpassing Germany in a couple of decades.

Now, because of the incentives, the elevated birth rates in France and Sweden are not mostly all Arabs the way that they mostly are in places like Germany, Italy and Britain.

If Europe has a future as EUROPE, that future is going to come primarily out of France, with an assist from Scandinavia (led by Sweden, but with good coordination from the Danes, Norwegians and Finns), and with an eastern pole in Poland. Russia is a wild card, and depends on whether the Russians rise into a state that actually supports its people, or sinks into crony capitalism and oppression. Jury's still out on that, but Russia's birth rate is still below replacement (and is most heavily driven by non-ethnic Russians).

Demography is destiny. The demographic tides in Europe are running with the Muslims. Among the native Europeans, the French are doing the best, followed by the Swedes. Finland, Denmark, Norway and Ireland and doing better than average. Everywhere else - and especially Germany and Spain - are swirling down the demographic death spiral towards the drain.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: nativist nationalist (#39)

Yep. What you wrote about English immigration is true. The English and Scottish and Irish immigrants to America did not in ANY case EVER come due to Catholic oppression. Not one. Because England was Protestant long before the English started colonizing America. The whole meme up this thread of people fleeing Europe to America to escape Catholic oppression is stupidity incarnate.

That's not to say that the Catholic Church wasn't pretty abusive and terrible in the 1500s. It certainly was.

But the first English settlement in America was Roanoke, and IT failed and disappeared BECAUSE the English didn't resupply it…because the year after it was founded the Spanish Armada came and England was cut off. So even THEN the English were already Protestant.

The Puritans and Presbyterians and Quakers fled to America because they were persecuted by PROTESTANTS in England. The Cavaliers came to Virginia because they were the defeated Church of England types when Cromwell's Puritans took over.

The handful of Catholics who came to America from Britain THEMSELVES came to America (to Maryland, and then later, here and there) specifically to escape PROTESTANT oppression of Catholics in Britain. The most Catholic element among the English Americans at the time of the Revolution were the Highland Scots. Highlanders way out in the islands and fringes of Scotland had remained Catholic while the rest of the Scots went Presbyterian, and the Scots Presbyterians hated the Highlander Catholics just like they hated the Irish, and oppressed them. Highlander Catholics fled to America and settled hither and yon.

After the American Revolution, the Highlander Scottish Catholics in America were the most likely to emigrate from America to settle in Canada, because Canada was French Catholic.

Of course the folks raging against Catholicism up this thread don't know any of the actual history, and don't care. They hate. And they will go on hating.

What is it that Taylor Swift swings? "Well the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate…baby I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake it off!" And yes, I think a retort from Taylor Swift is about the level of discourse that such crap deserves.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: buckeroo (#35)

Catholic doctrines and influences extend all the way back to creation of the DARK AGES of mankind; just a couple of centuries after Jesus Christ died.

You don't know your history.

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

When Rome fell to the Barbarians, the Dark Ages of the 500s and 600s were due to the overrun of civilization by pagans who destroyed everything.

Civilization recovered because the Catholic Church, alone - there was no other organization left - preserved the writings of the Roman Empire, and very gradually converted the barbarians.

The Dark Ages were not an age of FAITH, they were an age of the destruction of civilization by violent pagans. The Dark Ages were ENDED by the Catholic Church.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:37:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#17)

Lets see now Protestants were pushing for religious freedom and the Catholics were repressing them for wanting it, hmmmmmmmm.....

That kinda explains the angst between them doesn't it.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-03-15   9:29:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago.

550 years ago?

Ever heard of a little place called "Ireland"?

"Maryknollers?"

"Liberation Theology"

Encouraging illegal aliens from 3rd World Countries to come to the US because they are Catholic,and the Catholic Church getting hundreds of millions from the US government for providing social services to them that the Church should already be providing due to their tax-exempt charity status?

More immediate and importantly,the Liberation Theology branch encouraging communist revolutionaries from the 3rd World to immigrate to America,and providing them with help every step of the way?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:17:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: buckeroo, Vicomte13 (#34)

You wonder and then proclaim you don't wonder; chatting about "twisting around." My, my my.

Jesuit,either real or wannabe.

I had a friend that grew up in Europe and was mindwashed every day from birth until he was 18 by the local priest,not to mention beaten and molested. He was still a devout Catholic when I met him 30 years ago,but he hated Priests. For some odd reason he made an exception for a Jesuit that used to come by to visit.

Now he is in his 50's and no longer someone I am comfortable being around. Without coming out and saying so,he now firmly believes he is a lost knight of the Templars,and even has a shrine to them in his house,complete with shields and swords. He tried to tell me he did it to please his daughters,who were both born in the US from a US mother over 20 years ago,have never lived in Europe,haven't even lived with him since they were toddlers,and who are not at all religious.

And he was a big,scary guy prone to violence before this.

Can you say "Koo Koo Coca Puffs"?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:26:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: nativist nationalist (#39)

The Puritans were just as tyrannical,

No doubt about them being psycho aholes,but they weren't as bad as the Catholics. I don't recall them ever sentencing non-believers to be boiled to death in pots of flaming oil.

True,under Puritan rule you had to at least pretend you were a True Believer in "The Prince of Peace" (ROFLMAO!)in order to do business or be accepted,but as long as you kept quiet about your beliefs you were usually safe.

And to be fair,America was a big new country,and anytime you felt threatened by the Puritans,you could just pick up and move out of their reach. That wasn't really an option in Europe.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:33:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: nativist nationalist (#40)

Our absence from NATO might be just the thing to help them recover their national spirit.

Which is probably the prime reason we are still pushing NATO.

Winston Churchill once observed that "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat!"

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#45)

The whole meme up this thread of people fleeing Europe to America to escape Catholic oppression is stupidity incarnate.

WOW! I had no idea that Europe was compromised of England,Ireland,and Scotland!

HOONEW?

Thanks for the edmuncation!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Vicomte13 (#46)

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

Only because the Catholic Church hates competition,and because the "games" didn't include torture.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:42:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: CZ82 (#47) (Edited)

That kinda explains the angst between them doesn't it.

Yup,and it was based on greed and power. The Catholics then,like the Catholics of today,wanted to maintain a Catholic majority so the Vatican could keep dipping their beaks into the public treasury,and so they had enough political influence to be above the law.

Anybody that thinks the Catholic Church really and truly loves the typical illiterate and superstitious 3rd world cretins that breed like rabbits and live like wild animals in cardboard huts has a head at least a quart low.

What they see are more members pushing their agenda,and more money coming in from scared people trying to buy their way into heaven.

BTW,it has to be said that Martin Luther was one of the greatest men,biggest hero,and greatest humanitarian of all time. He did more to free people than anyone else in history.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13 (#46)

You don't know your history.

So, lets read your continuing historic and savvy post

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

First and foremost, all you are suggesting is the Catholic Church continued the Roman Empire's selfish, greedy narcissism through replacement of an old regime with another. The Romans were benevolent in many ways with the common people; the Catholics completely hid the Vulgate from the people as they did not educate the people. What brought on the barbarism (hence, the DARK AGES) in Europe was the early spread of Catholicism which did not educate the people (commonly known as "serfs") about the world around themselves; the people only had "Latin" from which to know or understand Jesus, but it was based on the hidden Vulgate which was in Latin.

When Rome fell to the Barbarians, the Dark Ages of the 500s and 600s were due to the overrun of civilization by pagans who destroyed everything.

Baa. It was the Catholic Church not educating the people as I already discussed. People are prime targets for outside hostile forces based on lack of knowledge; the Church facilitated that failure mode with glee.

Civilization recovered because the Catholic Church, alone - there was no other organization left - preserved the writings of the Roman Empire, and very gradually converted the barbarians.

HAHAHA! Civilization recovered about 1000 AD from the terror of Cathocism by an upsetting outside influence. It was the plague that Marco Polo and others brought back and destroyed upto 60% of Europe's populatin. This devasting disease stopped the continuing Crusades and wiped out most of the Catholic clergy.

To fill the void, the Renaissance era sprang into being as people realized they were lied to for about 1000 years; not by pagans or Romans but by the Cstholics.

The Dark Ages were not an age of FAITH, they were an age of the destruction of civilization by violent pagans. The Dark Ages were ENDED by the Catholic Church.

You have your facts all wrong. There is not much sense in discussing this point with you anympore.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-15   15:05:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nativist nationalist (#38)

Very true. We are to good of an ally, and we end up with allies that are not worth having.

Yep, a definite echo chamber effect. I've probably posted the exact same thing a dozen times over the years, possibly using the same exact words.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-15   18:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: sneakypete (#49)

Now he is in his 50's and no longer someone I am comfortable being around. Without coming out and saying so,he now firmly believes he is a lost knight of the Templars,and even has a shrine to them in his house,complete with shields and swords.

Like that Breivik mass murderer a few years back.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-15   18:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: buckeroo (#55)

ou have your facts all wrong. There is not much sense in discussing this point with you anympore.

It is you who have the facts wrong. I agree that there is no sense in continuing a discussion.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-15   20:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: sneakypete (#51)

Winston Churchill once observed that "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat!"

That isn't was Churchill said. He made the comment about Arabs and islam. He said,"The Arabs, meaning islam, are either at your feet or at your throat!"

rlk  posted on  2015-03-15   20:36:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: sneakypete (#52)

WOW! I had no idea that Europe was compromised of England,Ireland,and Scotland!

HOONEW?

Who came to the English colonies and to early America? The English, Scots and Irish. At the time of the Revolution through the Civil War and afterwards, the country was from the British Isles.

Some of those people did come fleeing religious persecution: Puritans, Presbyterians, Quakers, Anglicans at one point, and Catholics. Nobody from the British Isles ever came to America, either as colonies or afterwards, fleeing Catholic persecution. Catholics came from Ireland here to flee religious persecution by Protestants.

The Spanish who migrated to the Americss were not fleeing Catholic oppression. Neither were the Portuguese. They brought Catholicism with them. Same thing with the French Canadians. The Dutch who came to America were not fleeing Catholic persecution.

Where, in the Americas, are there people who came over here from Europe to flee Catholic persecution? Where are they? From what country? There is maybe one group, from one country, and that's about it. The Germans didn't come to America fleeing Catholic persecution, but German Brethren and Quakers came to have religious freedom from Lutheran oppression. Scandinavians never went anywhere fleeing Catholic oppression. Poles and Russians and Hungarians and Greeks did not come to America to flee Catholic oppression. Neither did Spaniards or Portuguese. Neither did the Dutch. And we've already established that nobody from the British Isles did.

So WHO ever came to ANY of the Americas to flee CATHOLIC oppression? All of the Americas EXCEPT for British and Dutch America WERE Catholic. People did not flee Europe to any of the Spanish, French or Portuguese colonies to flee CATHOLIC oppression. That leaves the Dutch and the English colonies. And the English colonies were filled up with people fleeing PROTESTANT oppression in the British isles. The Dutch didn't come over in any great numbers, but when they did, it was for trade, not to flee religious oppression.

Way up this thread, YOU asserted that people fled Europe to flee Catholic oppression. We've gone through Europe. WHERE? From WHAT country did people flee to the Americas because of CATHOLIC oppression? PROTESTANT oppression? Yes. People fled to America due to PROTESTANT oppression, but Catholic oppression? Nope. There's one exception, a limited number of people DID flee ONE country to America because of Catholic oppression. They didn't come in huge numbers. Besides them, there aren't any others. America filled up in its early days with people from the British Isles fleeing Protestant oppression, not Catholic. The rest of the Americas filled up with Catholics.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-15   20:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: sneakypete (#48)

IRELAND? Holy Mother of God! You're going to invoke IRELAND as an example of CATHOLIC oppression?

IRELAND was a Catholic country, thoroughly so. Scotland went Presybterian, and promptly burnt 20,000 people as witches. Know how many people the Catholic Irish burnt as witches during the same century? Zero. Scotland went Protestant, and Presbyterianism unleashed the bloodthirsty demons in Scotland. Their Catholic cousins were busy minding their own business in Ireland, burning nobody at the stake for anything, while the newly zealous Protestants across the way went nuts and burnt thousands to death over nothing.

Then the Protestants INVADED Ireland and went on a tear of mass murder.

The Irish never converted, and were content to be Catholic. The Protestant King of England unleashed the Scottish Presbyterians on Ireland, and they came over and invaded it to try to slaughter the Catholics like so much Indians and take their land. The Catholics fought back and held off complete conquest, for awhile, but the English came under Cromwell and slaughtered the Catholic Irish into submission.

The Catholic Irish were completely innocent of any crime whatsoever. They did absolutely NOTHING to the Protestants in Scotland or in England. Ever. The Catholics of Ireland were like the Jews, and the English and Scottish Protestants were the invading Nazis. The Scots and English INVADED Ireland, not the other way around, and tried to beat and slaughter the Catholic Irish into submission, and failed.

The blackest annals in Protestant history was the genoicde of the Irish committed first by the Calvinist Presbyterians, then by the Calvinist English Puritans, and the thoroughgoing casual oppression by the Anglicans that followed.

The Irish clung to their faith through centuries of Protestant persecution, and eventually the English gave up and left. The Presbyterians continue to cling to the Northern six counties, where the population demographics have slowly and steadily turned against them.

It's hard for me to believe that, in trying to speak of "Catholic oppression" you should bring up Ireland, the most innocent of any Catholic nation ever, that never did ONE THING to any of its neighbors, and never molested Protestants other than in self-defense when wave after wave of Protestants invaded and tried to perpetrate a bloody GENOCIDE on the Catholics, just for BEING Catholic.

And YOU are the one who invoked IRELAND.

If you want to make Protestants look like Nazis, you could not have picked a single worse example for Protestantism than Ireland where THREE separate strands of Protestantism: Presbyterian, Puritan (both Calvinist) AND traditionalist Anglican engaged in genocide and oppression.

Did you even realize that?

Of course not. You were ignorant of all of it. You just assume "Catholic bad", so you pick the worst case in history of Protestants abusing Catholics who had literally done NOTHING to the Protestants other than EXIST, on another island.

Holy crap! The Protestants in Ireland treating the Irish as badly as the Spanish treated the Incas. And THAT'S the example you pick? IRELAND?

Your hoist on your own petard there, or perhaps joist on your own canard.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-15   20:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: TooConservative (#57)

Now he is in his 50's and no longer someone I am comfortable being around. Without coming out and saying so,he now firmly believes he is a lost knight of the Templars,and even has a shrine to them in his house,complete with shields and swords.

Like that Breivik mass murderer a few years back.

Maybe in some respects,but I am NOT saying I suspect he is a mass murderer,either actual or in the making.

Lots of people have fantasy lives,and very few of them ever harm anyone.

Most of the reason I am no longer comfortable around him has more to do with me than it does him. I am a pretty literal person and you probably shouldn't ask me what I think about something in person unless you are ready to hear it.

I strongly suspect my friend has "gone around the corner" on religion,and I see no reason to antagonize him or start arguments with him over something I care nothing about.

If all you are going to do is piss somebody off,you need to avoid going around them.

If he is happy with his religious fantasy,I am happy for him. I just don't want to be around it.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   22:00:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: rlk (#59) (Edited)

Winston Churchill once observed that "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat!"

That isn't was Churchill said. He made the comment about Arabs and islam. He said,"The Arabs, meaning islam, are either at your feet or at your throat!"

This good enough for you?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Winston+Churchill+%22The+Hun+is+either+at+your+feet+or+at+your+throat!%22+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   22:12:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Vicomte13 (#60)

Who came to the English colonies and to early America?

People from all over Europe.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   22:14:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Vicomte13 (#61)

IRELAND? Holy Mother of God! You're going to invoke IRELAND as an example of CATHOLIC oppression?

Look,Bubba,if you are going to continue to change your arguments by switching centuries from one post to another,you need to notify people so they can follow along.

The discussion had advanced to modern times,which was why I mentioned Ireland,Liberation Theology,etc,etc,etc.

But then again,you knew this before I reminded you,and was just switching centuries to firm up your baseless stand.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   22:17:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Vicomte13, sneakypete (#61)

The Irish never converted, and were content to be Catholic. The Protestant King of England unleashed the Scottish Presbyterians on Ireland, and they came over and invaded it to try to slaughter the Catholics like so much Indians and take their land. The Catholics fought back and held off complete conquest, for awhile, but the English came under Cromwell and slaughtered the Catholic Irish into submission.

The Catholic Irish were completely innocent of any crime whatsoever. They did absolutely NOTHING to the Protestants in Scotland or in England. Ever. The Catholics of Ireland were like the Jews, and the English and Scottish Protestants were the invading Nazis. The Scots and English INVADED Ireland, not the other way around, and tried to beat and slaughter the Catholic Irish into submission, and failed.

Sounds like you think this was done for religious difference reasons instead of political or greed reasons.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-03-16   7:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: CZ82 (#66)

Sounds like you think this was done for religious difference reasons instead of political or greed reasons.

It was. James didn't authorize the Scots to colonize Ireland, which was also part of his Kingdom for reasons of simple greed. He could have authorized them to colonize Northumbria, or Wales. The purpose of the Ulster Plantation was to hammer the Catholics. Yes, that was political, but it was political in the same way that ISIS is political.

Cromwell, when he went on his genocidal tear through Ireland, was never vague about his reasons: he was there slaughtering Catholics because they were Catholics.

And no, the Catholic Irish, never, ever, invaded England, or attacked England, or Scotland. This was one-way abuse, like Nazis on Jews. There were not "two sides to the coin". The English and Scottish Protestants hated the Catholics, Ireland was Catholic and close, so the English and Scottish Protestants invaded Ireland bent on genocide, for religious reasons, because of the religion of the Irish.

That's what happened.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-16   8:55:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: sneakypete (#65)

Modern times? Where are the people in America who came here to flee Catholic persecution in MODERN TIMES, then? They don't exist.

They never existed. The only people who ever fled to America to flee CATHOLIC persecution were the French Huguenots. The rest of the people who came to the Americas either came for greed, opportunity, or to flee Protestant persecution.

That's history, ancient AND modern.

You've set a straw man of the Catholic Church being this monster that drove people out of Europe. It's utter bullshit in EVERY era, modern and age of exploration.

I called you on it, you've been caught flat footed because you've got no facts on your side, so now you're shucking and jiving and resorting to name calling because you were an ignoramus, I schooled you, and you've got nothing left but insults.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-16   8:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: sneakypete (#64)

People from all over Europe.

Not in statistically significant numbers they didn't.

Most American colonists were from the British Isles. Some were from Holland, and some were from Germany.

And what did they all have in common? They were all coming from Protestant countries, and in most cases, they were religious minorities who were abused by the Protestant state religion. The Puritans came to New England to escape the Anglicans. The Anglicans came to Virginia during the Puritan dictatorship of Cromwell. The Catholics fled England to Maryland, to escape persecution. The Quakers were hated and hounded by the Prebyterians and the Anglicans, so they came to America. The Anabaptists and Brethren of Germany were pounded upon by the Lutherans, so they came to America to escape it. The Highland Scots from the fringes came to America because they were Catholic and were treated horribly by the Presbyterian establishment.

The only people who came to America fleeing CATHOLIC oppression were French Huguenots, and they were not numerous.

The Irish Catholics didn't start to come over in significant numbers until the Potato Famine.

The German Catholics and Italians and Hungarians didn't make the move until later in the 19th Century and they were not fleeing Catholic oppression when they did.

Nobody except the Huguenots came to America fleeing Catholic oppression. Ever. Early America filled up with Protestants fleeing Protestant oppression. That's what happened.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-16   9:29:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Vicomte13 (#68)

I called you on it, you've been caught flat footed because you've got no facts on your side, so now you're shucking and jiving and resorting to name calling because you were an ignoramus, I schooled you, and you've got nothing left but insults.

You've only got bullshit and superstition,bubba.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-16   9:45:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Vicomte13 (#69)

Most American colonists were from the British Isles. Some were from Holland, and some were from Germany.

That will come as a major surprise to all the descendants of Eastern Europeans,not to mention the Italians and the Scandinavians.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-16   9:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#49)

Can you say "Koo Koo [4] Coca Puffs"?

The poster, in question, seems to have a problem with history from an objective outlook. The poster exemplifies how empires run the show until they get their pants brought down. I want you and everyone to know, that the Bubonic Plague stopped the Catholic dogma in their fascist tracks around 1000 AD; the Catholc dogma dictated complete obedience to a useless GOD for about 1000 years after the death of Christ.

Hence the later Renaissance Age ...

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-16   22:35:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: buckeroo (#72)

I want you and everyone to know, that the Bubonic Plague stopped the Catholic dogma in their fascist tracks around 1000 AD; the Catholc dogma dictated complete obedience to a useless GOD for about 1000 years after the death of Christ.

NOTHING hit the Catholic control as hard as Martin Luther,and other Catholic priests that were disgusted and filled with contempt for the "Holy Mother Church" and the professional criminals that ran it.

When the very people that are the foundations a structure rests on start pulling away from it and encouraging everyone else to pull away from it because it is rotten from top to bottom,that structure is coming down.

The Catholic Church only continues to exist today because of the superstitious fear of it's followers. They fear their "kind and loving God" will torture them for all of eternity if they don't kiss priestly ass. It has nothing to do with kindness or love,only fear.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-17   8:08:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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