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Title: European Union Fails–Nationalism Surging, Multiculturalism Dying
Source: VDare
URL Source: http://www.vdare.com/articles/is-the-european-union-dying
Published: Mar 13, 2015
Author: Pat Buchanan
Post Date: 2015-03-13 10:25:44 by nativist nationalist
Keywords: None
Views: 12297
Comments: 73

As the European Coal and Steel Community of Jean Monnet evolved into the EU, we were told a “United States of Europe” was at hand, modeled on the USA. And other countries and continents will inevitably follow Europe’s example.

There will be a North American Union of the U.S., Canada and Mexico, and a Latin America Union of the Mercosur trade partnership.

In an essay, “The E.U. Experiment Has Failed,” Bruce Thornton of Hoover Institution makes the case that the verdict is in, the dream is dead, the EU is unraveling, One Europe is finished.

Consider, first, economics. In 2013, Europe grew by 1 percent compared to the U.S.’s 2.2 percent. In December, unemployment in Europe was 11.4 percent. In the U.S., 5.6 percent. Americans are alarmed by the lowest labor force participation rate since Reagan, 62.7 percent. In Europe, in 2013, it was 57.5 percent.

Europeans may wail over German-imposed “austerity,” but the government share of Europe’s GDP has gone from 45 percent in 2008 to 49 percent today. In Greece, it is 59 percent.

Most critical is the demographic crisis. For a nation to survive, its women must produce on average 2.1 children. Europe has not seen that high a fertility rate in 40 years. Today, it is down to 1.6 children.

Europeans are an aging, shrinking, disappearing, dying race.

And the places of Europe’s unborn are being filled by growing “concentrations of unassimilated and disaffected Muslim immigrants, segregated in neighborhoods like the banlieues of Paris or the satellite ‘dish cities’ of Amsterdam.

“Shut out from labor markets, plied with generous social welfare payments and allowed to cultivate beliefs and cultural practices inimical to democracy, many of these immigrants despise their new homes, and find the religious commitment and certainty of radical Islam an attractive alternative.”

“Some turn to terrorism,” like the French-Algerian brothers who carried out the slaughter at the magazine Charlie Hebdo.

“Such violence,” writes Thornton, “along with cultural practices like honor killings, forced marriages and polygamy … are stoking a political backlash against Muslims.”

Populist parties are surging–the U.K. Independence Party in Britain, the National Front in France, and now the “Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the Occident,” PEGIDA, in Germany, These parties will soon be strong enough to enter governments, impose restrictions on immigration and demand assimilation.

Then the cultural conflicts may turn violent.

A fundamental question has troubled European unification since the Treaty of Rome in 1957, writes Thornton: “What comprises the collective beliefs of and values that can form the foundations of a genuine European-wide community? What is it that all Europeans believe?

“Europe and its nations were forged in the matrix of ideas, ideals, and beliefs of Christianity, which gives divine sanction to notions like human rights, the sanctity of the individual, political freedom and equality. Today across Europe Christian belief is a shadow of its former self.

“Fewer and fewer Europeans regularly go to Church. … It is common for many European cathedrals to have more tourists during a service than parishioners. … This process of secularization–already well advanced in 1887 when Nietzsche famously said, ‘God is no more than a faded word today, not even a concept’–is nearly complete today, leaving Europe without its historical principle of unity.”

Political religions–communism, fascism, Nazism–are substitute gods that failed. “Nor has secular social democracy … provided people with a transcendent principle that justifies sacrifice for the greater good, or even gives people a reason to reproduce.

“A shared commitment to leisure, a short workweek, and a generous social safety net is nothing worth killing or dying for.”

And who will die for Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea?

Pacifism beckons. Every major European nation in NATO–Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland–will see defense spending in 2015 below 2 percent of GDP.

The idea of One Europe has depended on “the denigration of patriotism and national pride,” writes Thornton, “Yet all peoples are the products of a particular culture, language, mores, traditions, histories, landscapes. … That sense of belonging to a community defined by a shared identity cannot be created by a single currency.”

Christianity gave Europe its faith, identity, purpose and will to conquer and convert the world. Christianity created Europe. And the death of Christianity leaves the continent with no unifying principle save a watery commitment to democracy and La Dolce Vita.

From Marine Le Pen’s France to Putin’s Russia, nationalism and patriotism are surging across Europe because peoples, deprived of or disbelieving in the old faith, want a new faith to give meaning, purpose, vitality to their lives, something to live for, fight for, die for.

Countless millions of Muslims have found in their old faith their new faith. And the descendants of fallen-away European Christians of the 19th and 20th centuries are finding their new faith in old tribal and national identities.

Less and less does multiculturalism look like the wave of the future.

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#16. To: Vicomte13, A Pole, Pericles (#14)

If the US left Europe, Portions of the Ukraine would be rapidly reassimilated into Russia, and that would be that.

And northwest Ukraine would rejoin southern Poland.

The weaker border countries (the Balts) would stop being antagonistic to the Russians and would be "Finlandized". The Poles would be pointlessly antagonistic, and damage their economy and hold back their own progress by maintain an excessively large and pointless military.

I think the Poles would rapidly read the tea leaves. Their bellicosity is directly due to how much they think they can hide behind NATO's (America's) skirts.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-13   20:59:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#12)

Curious, then, that the greatest source of immigration to early America was Protestant English and Protestant Scots and Protestant Irish.

What's curious about it? They wanted to get away from the freaking Catholics.

The Catholic Irish came next, to get away from the English Protestant boot on their neck.

No,to get away from starvation. Unfortunately,they brought their evil religion with them when they came.

The English and Scots were migrating from PROTESTANT countries, not Catholic.

Yeah,cause neither England nor Scotland had ever been Catholic countries,huh?

It was the Catholics that poisoned the Christian well,and nobody else. Not saying any of the other Christian cults were totally blameless,but they were more in the line of occasional troublesome children compared to the Jeffrey Domer that was and is the Catholic Church.

The only thing that keeps the Catholic Church from being the most evil organization in all of history was the emergence of Islam,and even they were only marginally more evil from a historical viewpoint.

You hate the Catholic Church with such a blind rage that you have made up a whole alternate history which is nothing but utter bullshit.

While you are a practicing Catholic propagandist and therefore an established expert on bullshit,you are wrong about this and it is YOU that is promoting alternative history.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-13   21:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: nativist nationalist (#0)

Political religions–communism, fascism, Nazism–are substitute gods that failed. “Nor has secular social democracy … provided people with a transcendent principle that justifies sacrifice for the greater good, or even gives people a reason to reproduce.

“A shared commitment to leisure, a short workweek, and a generous social safety net is nothing worth killing or dying for.”

And who will die for Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea?

Pacifism beckons. Every major European nation in NATO–Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland–will see defense spending in 2015 below 2 percent of GDP.

Pat Buchanan hits another homerun based on the contents of this brilliant article!

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   21:14:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: buckeroo (#18)

Hey bucky! I haven't seen you in two months of Sundays.

Best wishes.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-13   21:57:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Western Civilization committed suicide.

By abandoning Christian beliefs about sex and turning full throttle to birth control in order to permit near-universal pre-marital sex, Americans and Europeans killed the perceived need for marriage.

You postulate a perspective and support it. Congratulations! But you fail to perform root cause analysis in a meaningful way. Generally, you claim the issues are fundamentally rooted in human sexual adventure but limited to or based on contemporary techniques of sexual contraception.

My perspective is that changes in all social, economic and cultural (including religious activities) occured with the US manufactured atomic bomb that precipitated the end of WW2. The later social frenzy about the end of mankind due to REAL (not apparent) activities for complete annihilation of mankind created a vast divide about the purpose of mankind for social views of individual + self identifiacation. You might say, individualism slipped a notch; awareness of "religion" slipped several notches; while sensual pleasures was buoyed into infinites notches on an imaginative, social yardstick concerning the phenomenal changes to ourselves and about ourselves. You suggest "SEX" was a driving force and continuing dynamic whereas I suggest the "ATOMIC BOMB" created the social changes about modern sexual activities that have you worried about a weak argument.

To put a comment clearly to you, you are "off base" and not even close to understanding the root cause of change either in Europe or the USA.

By turning to abortion as the safety net to catch the unwanted pregnancies that result when birth control failed, the Westerners accelerated the birth rate collapse.

You address symptoms of the social phenomena and not any root cause.

Now, sex, childbearing and marriage are completely decoupled. Men and women don't marry, and don't have kids.

This phenomena between men and women hasn't occured NOW; it has always BEEN, in all of mankind's history no matter the culture or geography around the world. It seems you cannot address the reasons for the social change about marriage or children in the highly accelerated social environment from 1945 to now; the phenomenal growth curve is non-linear all around the world.

This is not a European thing - it's in the US and Canada too. The whole white world is dying out, because the whites have abandoned God and marriage and childbearing for material wealth and sexual pleasure.

Nope. There is a decline of child bearing in western nations but it is not predicated on your apparent reasoning.

Nor is there any willingness to go back.

Nope. Not necessarily true. Mankind has developed an enigma for itself. We are killing ourselves by phenomenal technical capabilities beyond even our own control; a basic conceptual development is simple to understand: why have children if war around the world is continuing and we face the brink of diesasters with every day news broadcasts reaffirming these marvels? Isn't the simple solution to migrate from a mythical God to a nice, benevolent government that gives social relief?

Which means that Europe will be populated by Middle Easterners (who seem likely to remain Islamic), and the US and Canada will be populated by Latinos, while Australia is populated by Indonesians and Malay.

You remind me of someone that doesn't understand the difference between cancer and a minor skin infection, very similar to US politics.

A whole culture, the White culture, is fatally addicted to sexual sin. And it is dying out everywhere as the direct result. The wages of sin is death.

Do you read what you (personally) author? Oh .... the irony.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: TooConservative (#4)

Putin and ISIS will be shaking in their boots at the thought of the Brits unleashing their pensions on the battlefield.

That is one HELL of a phunney remarck.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:34:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

The notion that Catholics ever had a "death grip" on this overwhelmingly Protestant society is idiotic.

Man, you are almost replete with total lafter tonite. Of course, I must confess that you are unknowing about the thirty years' war; ever read about that little war? A minor detail in history, correct?

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

The Church used to be the most authoritative force in Europe, of that there is no doubt. But that was a life grip, not a death grip.

Your fine and Holy Catholic Church caused the backlash of the Protestant divide. Of course, Martin Luther died, so you can't ask him a question about the sexual perversion the Catholic religion commonly imposed on the common man.

Let us turn to some Gregorian Chants for you as as direct Catholic Priests were responsible for the deaths of thousands of little children, women and men during their personal lusts. I can't find any at the moment.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#15)

Vicomte13: The Catholic Church has been the most civilizing influence in human history.

sneakypete: ROFLMAO!

I wanted to add a blurb but found myself considering that not much more can be said but a laff or two.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   22:56:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: TooConservative (#16)

I think the Poles would rapidly read the tea leaves. Their bellicosity is directly due to how much they think they can hide behind NATO's (America's) skirts.

Excellent analysis. However, I want to say that the amount of absorption is directly linked to America's USD vs. Euro. America is truly KING for the day over global money markets.

Take a cruize and enjoy yourself while saving the contents of your bank account; you deserve a family treat based on political position about the international economies.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   23:08:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Fred Mertz (#19)

Heya, Fred!

Lots of good things are still happening in my life and I continuously shall hope the same for yourself. I read your posts from time to time so, I know you are alive & kickin'. I just checked some Internet posts from 1998-1999 that you and I exchanged from several channels such as FR; some are captured on my servers from my ol' days of running bots.

Somehow, we are abandoned but not forgotten! "Vigilance" is not about agreement about phenomena surrounding our lives but the dynamics of changing the world for the good characteristics that we individually know or even consider. Never acquiesce!

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-13   23:23:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: TooConservative (#9)

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose. It actually seems to weaken Europe's ability to have a military worth talking about.

I don't entirely agree. Some of our most critical logistical support centers are in Europe. Thus my comment about POEs and PODs.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-14   0:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#14)

Instructive post.

A Pole  posted on  2015-03-14   4:38:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: redleghunter (#27) (Edited)

Some of our most critical logistical support centers are in Europe.

They're very pricey outposts. We could do the same much cheaper elsewhere.

We just like lording it over the European provinces. As to the EU contributing to our defense capabilities, they're far more trouble and expense than they're worth.

The EU militaries are mostly useful for parading down boulevards on holidays to impress the crowds so they feel relevant. About as phony as the British royal family but much more expensive.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-14   6:43:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: buckeroo (#23)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago. I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

I don't really wonder. But it would be interesting to see you twist around trying to distinguish the two cases.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:39:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: buckeroo (#22)

The 30 Years War? Yes indeed, a tragic disaster, brought about by violent, unyielding men on both sides of the religious divide.

That was twice as far back in history as American slavery. So if it's ok to hate the Catholics for the Thirty Years War, so very long ago, I presume you think that Blacks are justified for hating the South for things that happened 150 years ago, yes?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: buckeroo (#20)

You think the atomic bomb, all by itself, a technical change, is the cause of the collapse of Christian morality in the world?

You have a lot of faith in technology, buckeroo.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   8:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago. I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

Bloody Mary had my 15th great-grandfather beheaded and quartered, but I don't hate her. As a matter of fact I hope she repented before her death.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-03-14   10:21:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago.

My sense of outright indignation about the Catholic church is not limited to about 600 years ago. My contempt extends all the way back to the origins of Christian theology as organized by the Catholic religion, about 2K years ago. So, you are short sighted to say the least.

I wonder if you're sympathetic to blacks for having comparable hatred of many American institutions for things that happened here fifty years ago.

I could care less; your question is not relevent to the discussion.

I don't really wonder. But it would be interesting to see you twist around trying to distinguish the two cases.

You wonder and then proclaim you don't wonder; chatting about "twisting around." My, my my.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:02:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

The 30 Years War? Yes indeed, a tragic disaster, brought about by violent, unyielding men on both sides of the religious divide.

Religious divide? What was the mandate that Martin Luther declared concerning the Catholic religion? He stated the abosolute truth when he found representatives of the "church" fucking women at any time they pleased, drinking liquer at all times of the day and stealing money from the common people.

And you adhere to a well-documented tradition of bullshit?

That was twice as far back in history as American slavery. So if it's ok to hate the Catholics for the Thirty Years War, so very long ago, I presume you think that Blacks are justified for hating the South for things that happened 150 years ago, yes?

Nope. Catholic doctrines and influences extend all the way back to creation of the DARK AGES of mankind; just a couple of centuries after Jesus Christ died.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

You think the atomic bomb, all by itself, a technical change, is the cause of the collapse of Christian morality in the world?

No question about it. The world changed dramatically after the results of mass weaponry held in the hands of a few men at a time of world war. Of course, the prayers to God have been almost zero ever since.

You have a lot of faith in technology, buckeroo.

More than some traditional, religious freakoizoid show masked in massive death around the world provided by a tyrantical church centered in Rome.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-14   15:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: TooConservative (#4)

Dissolve NATO now. It's a bad joke, thoroughly rotten.

It was a failure in 1961 when using the criteria Eisenhower gave in 1951, when he stated that if American troops were in Europe in ten years time then NATO would have been a failure. And that was a half century ago!

NATO has gone from a waste of resources to being an actual liability to the United States. Our European "allies" dragged us into the Balkans and helped to sour our relationship with Russia, to the benefit of China. And their intervention Libya opened up a can of worms.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:46:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: TooConservative (#9)

Our presence in Europe serves no purpose. It actually seems to weaken Europe's ability to have a military worth talking about.

Very true. We are to good of an ally, and we end up with allies that are not worth having.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#12)

The Puritans who came to New England were fleeing an oppressive PROTESANT government.

The Puritans were just as tyrannical, witness Cromwell, and Roger Williams had to flee their religious haven. The English upper class created a society that offered nothing for the vast majority other than a miserable subsistence. And the Church of England was one of their instruments, they drove a lot of the Scots-Irish to American shores. Cornwallis once observed during our revolutionary war that what he really had on his hands was a Presbyterian insurrection in the Piedmont.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   15:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#14)

The Germans would continue to die out in their existential despair.

Germany is the wild card. I recall an economist who famously observed that unsustainable trends tend not to be sustained in the long term. A hundred years ago China was counted as being down and out. Our absence from NATO might be just the thing to help them recover their national spirit.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   16:03:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: buckeroo (#18)

Pat Buchanan hits another homerun based on the contents of this brilliant article!

He did. To bad he was not elected in 2000, he was the best guy on the ballot.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   16:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: redleghunter (#5)

The US needs NATO to justify POEs and PODs...

What are POEs and PODs?

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-14   18:34:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: nativist nationalist (#42)

Ports of entry

Ports of departure

An "A" before it would be air and and "S" by sea.

APOE APOD SPOD SPOE

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-14   19:23:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: nativist nationalist (#40)

Germany is more of a dead duck than a wild card. A fertility rate of 1.4 - worst in Europe, and one of the very worst in the world. They're dying out and being replaced by Turks.

Germany is, all in all, a pretty wretched model.

The Germans have a fetish for the "Rule of Law", to the point that they over regulate everything. They have no sense of humor about it, and insist on rigid adherence to the law (other countries have a lot of law and rules, but are more "supple" about really enforcing everything to its ridiculous extreme, but the Germans have no "off switch" and no common-sense override when it comes to their concept of the rigid rule of law. Think of those American schools that suspend Kindergartners for going "bang" with their fingers, or for chewing their cheese sandwich "into the shape of a gun", and now make that a whole country's legal system about everything, and you have Germany.) It's a miserable way to exist, and the Germans are incapable of getting out of their own way. They've ALWAYS been this way, but before the pill it wasn't killing them. Now, though, it is. Now, their drive for wealth and achievement is very uniform, it is uniformly unattainable at the levels they want it, and therefore, lock-step, they all postpone childbirth, all don't get married…and are all vanishing as a race.

Germany is aging and not reproducing. The wild card is that Germany's economy cannot continue to grow, and must shrink and slowly die unless the Germans import millions. They are: Turks, but the people they're importing don't have German notions of law, and never will, so the Germans hate that and resist the immigration…ineffectually because they can't band together AGAINST any group of people, given their famously successful history of doing that.

Germany is a nation without a future and without hope.

The countries in Europe with the brightest future (and it's not all that bright) are the ones that have the best birth rates. France and Sweden. They have the best birth rates because they massively subsidize child-rearing. Of course a lot of those births are foreign or immigrants, but the native birth rate is higher there too. France and Sweden are not at replacement rate in that regard, but they're closer than anywhere else.

Obviously there is no way in hell for the British to do anything like this: the British will accept confiscatory taxes (they already pay them) but they WON'T accept broad aid to families. It's too…COMMON, too…SOFT on people, and the British really hate people down the social scale from themselves.

The Italians, Spanish, Portuguese and Greeks cannot do anything like this, because they don't have the economic strength to be able to sustain it. The Scandinavians can, and the Dutch and Flemish, and they might.

The Germans…well, the Germans COULD do it. Germans don't have the utter contempt for people beneath them that British do, so the Germans COULD start financing childbirth and childrearing like Scandinavians and French do. But it would cost them very dearly, and it would tug down individual prosperity. And let's face it, if you're living in a miserable place like Germany, with miserable Germans as neighbors…one giant Homeowners Association of a country…it's really HARD to turn away from greed and obsession with the things they're already obsessed with.

I doubt they will.

So, I'd say that Western Europe will end up, over time, being more and more Scandinavian and French, simply because the Scandinavians and French already HAVE invested vast sums in developing vast programs to increase the fertility rate, and they already HAVE had success, so much so that France will be the most populous country in Europe again, surpassing Germany in a couple of decades.

Now, because of the incentives, the elevated birth rates in France and Sweden are not mostly all Arabs the way that they mostly are in places like Germany, Italy and Britain.

If Europe has a future as EUROPE, that future is going to come primarily out of France, with an assist from Scandinavia (led by Sweden, but with good coordination from the Danes, Norwegians and Finns), and with an eastern pole in Poland. Russia is a wild card, and depends on whether the Russians rise into a state that actually supports its people, or sinks into crony capitalism and oppression. Jury's still out on that, but Russia's birth rate is still below replacement (and is most heavily driven by non-ethnic Russians).

Demography is destiny. The demographic tides in Europe are running with the Muslims. Among the native Europeans, the French are doing the best, followed by the Swedes. Finland, Denmark, Norway and Ireland and doing better than average. Everywhere else - and especially Germany and Spain - are swirling down the demographic death spiral towards the drain.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: nativist nationalist (#39)

Yep. What you wrote about English immigration is true. The English and Scottish and Irish immigrants to America did not in ANY case EVER come due to Catholic oppression. Not one. Because England was Protestant long before the English started colonizing America. The whole meme up this thread of people fleeing Europe to America to escape Catholic oppression is stupidity incarnate.

That's not to say that the Catholic Church wasn't pretty abusive and terrible in the 1500s. It certainly was.

But the first English settlement in America was Roanoke, and IT failed and disappeared BECAUSE the English didn't resupply it…because the year after it was founded the Spanish Armada came and England was cut off. So even THEN the English were already Protestant.

The Puritans and Presbyterians and Quakers fled to America because they were persecuted by PROTESTANTS in England. The Cavaliers came to Virginia because they were the defeated Church of England types when Cromwell's Puritans took over.

The handful of Catholics who came to America from Britain THEMSELVES came to America (to Maryland, and then later, here and there) specifically to escape PROTESTANT oppression of Catholics in Britain. The most Catholic element among the English Americans at the time of the Revolution were the Highland Scots. Highlanders way out in the islands and fringes of Scotland had remained Catholic while the rest of the Scots went Presbyterian, and the Scots Presbyterians hated the Highlander Catholics just like they hated the Irish, and oppressed them. Highlander Catholics fled to America and settled hither and yon.

After the American Revolution, the Highlander Scottish Catholics in America were the most likely to emigrate from America to settle in Canada, because Canada was French Catholic.

Of course the folks raging against Catholicism up this thread don't know any of the actual history, and don't care. They hate. And they will go on hating.

What is it that Taylor Swift swings? "Well the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate…baby I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake it off!" And yes, I think a retort from Taylor Swift is about the level of discourse that such crap deserves.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: buckeroo (#35)

Catholic doctrines and influences extend all the way back to creation of the DARK AGES of mankind; just a couple of centuries after Jesus Christ died.

You don't know your history.

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

When Rome fell to the Barbarians, the Dark Ages of the 500s and 600s were due to the overrun of civilization by pagans who destroyed everything.

Civilization recovered because the Catholic Church, alone - there was no other organization left - preserved the writings of the Roman Empire, and very gradually converted the barbarians.

The Dark Ages were not an age of FAITH, they were an age of the destruction of civilization by violent pagans. The Dark Ages were ENDED by the Catholic Church.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-14   22:37:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#17)

Lets see now Protestants were pushing for religious freedom and the Catholics were repressing them for wanting it, hmmmmmmmm.....

That kinda explains the angst between them doesn't it.

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-03-15   9:29:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

I see that you share the fairly common theme of hatred of the Catholic Church for things that happened five hundred and fifty years ago.

550 years ago?

Ever heard of a little place called "Ireland"?

"Maryknollers?"

"Liberation Theology"

Encouraging illegal aliens from 3rd World Countries to come to the US because they are Catholic,and the Catholic Church getting hundreds of millions from the US government for providing social services to them that the Church should already be providing due to their tax-exempt charity status?

More immediate and importantly,the Liberation Theology branch encouraging communist revolutionaries from the 3rd World to immigrate to America,and providing them with help every step of the way?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:17:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: buckeroo, Vicomte13 (#34)

You wonder and then proclaim you don't wonder; chatting about "twisting around." My, my my.

Jesuit,either real or wannabe.

I had a friend that grew up in Europe and was mindwashed every day from birth until he was 18 by the local priest,not to mention beaten and molested. He was still a devout Catholic when I met him 30 years ago,but he hated Priests. For some odd reason he made an exception for a Jesuit that used to come by to visit.

Now he is in his 50's and no longer someone I am comfortable being around. Without coming out and saying so,he now firmly believes he is a lost knight of the Templars,and even has a shrine to them in his house,complete with shields and swords. He tried to tell me he did it to please his daughters,who were both born in the US from a US mother over 20 years ago,have never lived in Europe,haven't even lived with him since they were toddlers,and who are not at all religious.

And he was a big,scary guy prone to violence before this.

Can you say "Koo Koo Coca Puffs"?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:26:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: nativist nationalist (#39)

The Puritans were just as tyrannical,

No doubt about them being psycho aholes,but they weren't as bad as the Catholics. I don't recall them ever sentencing non-believers to be boiled to death in pots of flaming oil.

True,under Puritan rule you had to at least pretend you were a True Believer in "The Prince of Peace" (ROFLMAO!)in order to do business or be accepted,but as long as you kept quiet about your beliefs you were usually safe.

And to be fair,America was a big new country,and anytime you felt threatened by the Puritans,you could just pick up and move out of their reach. That wasn't really an option in Europe.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:33:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: nativist nationalist (#40)

Our absence from NATO might be just the thing to help them recover their national spirit.

Which is probably the prime reason we are still pushing NATO.

Winston Churchill once observed that "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat!"

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#45)

The whole meme up this thread of people fleeing Europe to America to escape Catholic oppression is stupidity incarnate.

WOW! I had no idea that Europe was compromised of England,Ireland,and Scotland!

HOONEW?

Thanks for the edmuncation!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Vicomte13 (#46)

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

Only because the Catholic Church hates competition,and because the "games" didn't include torture.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:42:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: CZ82 (#47) (Edited)

That kinda explains the angst between them doesn't it.

Yup,and it was based on greed and power. The Catholics then,like the Catholics of today,wanted to maintain a Catholic majority so the Vatican could keep dipping their beaks into the public treasury,and so they had enough political influence to be above the law.

Anybody that thinks the Catholic Church really and truly loves the typical illiterate and superstitious 3rd world cretins that breed like rabbits and live like wild animals in cardboard huts has a head at least a quart low.

What they see are more members pushing their agenda,and more money coming in from scared people trying to buy their way into heaven.

BTW,it has to be said that Martin Luther was one of the greatest men,biggest hero,and greatest humanitarian of all time. He did more to free people than anyone else in history.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-15   14:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13 (#46)

You don't know your history.

So, lets read your continuing historic and savvy post

Three centuries after Jesus died, the Roman Empire itself converted to Catholicism. This proved to be a tremendous boon for millions, because the arenas with their orgies of death and horror were closed.

First and foremost, all you are suggesting is the Catholic Church continued the Roman Empire's selfish, greedy narcissism through replacement of an old regime with another. The Romans were benevolent in many ways with the common people; the Catholics completely hid the Vulgate from the people as they did not educate the people. What brought on the barbarism (hence, the DARK AGES) in Europe was the early spread of Catholicism which did not educate the people (commonly known as "serfs") about the world around themselves; the people only had "Latin" from which to know or understand Jesus, but it was based on the hidden Vulgate which was in Latin.

When Rome fell to the Barbarians, the Dark Ages of the 500s and 600s were due to the overrun of civilization by pagans who destroyed everything.

Baa. It was the Catholic Church not educating the people as I already discussed. People are prime targets for outside hostile forces based on lack of knowledge; the Church facilitated that failure mode with glee.

Civilization recovered because the Catholic Church, alone - there was no other organization left - preserved the writings of the Roman Empire, and very gradually converted the barbarians.

HAHAHA! Civilization recovered about 1000 AD from the terror of Cathocism by an upsetting outside influence. It was the plague that Marco Polo and others brought back and destroyed upto 60% of Europe's populatin. This devasting disease stopped the continuing Crusades and wiped out most of the Catholic clergy.

To fill the void, the Renaissance era sprang into being as people realized they were lied to for about 1000 years; not by pagans or Romans but by the Cstholics.

The Dark Ages were not an age of FAITH, they were an age of the destruction of civilization by violent pagans. The Dark Ages were ENDED by the Catholic Church.

You have your facts all wrong. There is not much sense in discussing this point with you anympore.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-03-15   15:05:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nativist nationalist (#38)

Very true. We are to good of an ally, and we end up with allies that are not worth having.

Yep, a definite echo chamber effect. I've probably posted the exact same thing a dozen times over the years, possibly using the same exact words.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-15   18:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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