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Bang / Guns
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Title: Police say Obama bullet ban isn't needed, AR-15 round isn't a threat
Source: Washington Examiner
URL Source: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p ... -isnt-a-threat/article/2560964
Published: Mar 3, 2015
Author: Paul Bedard
Post Date: 2015-03-05 04:07:45 by Tooconservative
Ping List: *Bang List*     Subscribe to *Bang List*
Keywords: AR-15
Views: 3122
Comments: 18

A top police representative on Tuesday said that there is no history of criminals using a round popular among AR-15 rifle shooters against officers, undermining the Obama administration's argument for banning the 5.56 M855 "lightgreen tip."

"Any ammunition is of concern to police in the wrong hands, but this specific round has historically not posed a law enforcement problem," said James Pasco, executive director of the Washington office of the Fraternal Order of Police, the world's largest organization of sworn law enforcement officers, with more than 325,000 members.

He told Secrets that the round used mostly for target practice "is not typically used against law enforcement."

While he said that he is "not finding fault" with the surprise move last month by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to classify the round as "armor piercing" and then ban it, Pasco added, "While this round will penetrate soft body armor, it has not historically posed a threat to law enforcement."

That view not only counters BATFE's reason for proposing the ban, it also challenges the White House endorsement of the ban. Spokesman Josh Earnest said Monday, "we are looking at additional ways to protect our brave men and women in law enforcement and believe that this process is valuable for that reason alone. This seems to be an area where everyone should agree that if there are armor-piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement at considerably more risk."

The administration's effort is under fire on Capitol Hill where 55 percent of all House members have signed a letter challenging BATFE's proposal.

Led by House Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Bob Goodlatte and the National Rifle Association, 235 members have signed the letter. The signatures came in at a record pace since Goodlatte's team and the NRA have been circulating it for just three business days.

A similar effort is moving quickly through the Senate, led by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Sen. Chuck Grassley.

As with most rounds used in rifles, the 5.56 M855 will shoot through soft body armor, but was granted an exemption to longstanding police protection legislation because it isn't used by criminals who typically use smaller pistols.

BATFE said that with the popularity of AR-style pistols growing, the weapon poses a new threat to police. But foes of the bullet ban say that criminals are unlikely to spend the $1,000 or more to by one and also that at about 20 inches long, it isn't considered a concealed weapon.

Many gun enthusiasts believe that the proposed bullet ban, up for public comment, is a backdoor bid to cut the popularity of the AR-15, the nation's most popular gun, one critics call an "assault weapon" and a target of liberals and President Obama.

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#1. To: TooConservative (#0)

BATFE said that with the popularity of AR-style pistols growing,

Oh,yeah. There will probably be a couple of dozen sold this year,up from the 15 or 20 that were sold last year. Mostly bought by rich wannabe Rambo's who have never been in combat and who will never be in combat,that keep it locked in their gun safes and only take it out to show to people.

These things are very expensive oddities that collectors are attracted to,not criminals,who generally buy the cheapest stolen weapons they can find.

Too big to be a practical pistol,and too small to be a practical rifle in a world where M-4 clones are readily available and cheaper than they are,they will remain a collectors oddity.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-05   6:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: sneakypete (#1)

Oh,yeah. There will probably be a couple of dozen sold this year,up from the 15 or 20 that were sold last year. Mostly bought by rich wannabe Rambo's who have never been in combat and who will never be in combat,that keep it locked in their gun safes and only take it out to show to people.

I read somewhere that the smallest of these handguns has an 11" barrel. So they're all close to 20" guns.

The average person would look at that as something much more than a handgun, less than a rifle. And it is a pricey gun for collectors.

I'd guess the chances of a cop running into a crook with one of these huge handguns is far less than the chance of encountering someone with a sawed-off shotgun that could fire large slugs.

They seem to be trying to scare everyone that cops will walk up to car windows at a traffic stop and they'll get blown away by one of these rare guns. The FOP isn't convinced. I think FOP also doesn't want to get blamed for this gungrab when they think it is useless. FOP is not entirely opposed to gungrabs but they aren't signing on for such a dumb gungrab.

I've read several of these articles about these guns and the ammo. AFAIK, there isn't a single cop in America has been shot by or shot at or even threatened with one of these rare uber-handguns.

Obviously, it's all a ploy to shut off the supply of cheap military surplus ammo which helps to make the AR-15 the most popular rifle in the country.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   7:12:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: TooConservative (#2)

They seem to be trying to scare everyone that cops will walk up to car windows at a traffic stop and they'll get blown away by one of these rare guns.

True,and at the same time they are trying to convince the cops that the citizens are out to kill them when they knock on a door or make a traffic stop.

One of the worlds greatest ironies is that chaos is almost always a carefully scripted and controlled creation. It doesn't happen by itself.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-05   7:33:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: TooConservative (#0)

"Pasco added, "While this round will penetrate soft body armor, it has not historically posed a threat to law enforcement."

Won't a plain old .223 FMJ round penetrate soft body armor?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-05   9:34:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: misterwhite, sneakypete (#4)

Won't a plain old .223 FMJ round penetrate soft body armor?

Maybe. The newer soft armor can stop them, I think.

But these surplus military rounds have steel tips so they do have more penetrating power and (supposedly) can puncture all the soft armor on the market. Anyway, that's the gist of what I've read on this ammo issue.

pete can probably correct me if I've misunderstood something about the ammo type.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   9:38:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: TooConservative (#5)

"But these surplus military rounds have steel tips so they do have more penetrating power and (supposedly) can puncture all the soft armor on the market."

If these M855 rounds are banned because they can penetrate soft body armor, I'm saying the .223 FMJ could be next since it also penetrates soft body armor.

Once the precedent is set ...

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-05   9:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: TooConservative (#5)

Won't a plain old .223 FMJ round penetrate soft body armor?

Maybe. The newer soft armor can stop them, I think.

I have never tried it and don't know anyone that has,but IIRC,standard military ammo is supposed to be able to penetrate a helmet at 100 yards,so my best guess is anybody wearing soft armor that is shot with one from 15 feet is in a heap of trouble.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-05   10:12:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: TooConservative, misterwhite, sneakypete (#5)

Won't a plain old .223 FMJ round penetrate soft body armor?

Yes. Every rifle cartridge will penetrate soft body armor including .22 mag

Ive done actual testing.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-05   10:13:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: misterwhite (#6)

Once the precedent is set ..

Which is what the legal terrorists are ALWAYS looking for.

The camels nose under the tent always leads to the whole damn camel ending up in there.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-03-05   10:14:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: GrandIsland, misterwhite, sneakypete (#8) (Edited)

    Won't a plain old .223 FMJ round penetrate soft body armor?

Yes. Every rifle cartridge will penetrate soft body armor including .22 mag

You tested on recent designs of quality armor? The quality of soft armor is greatly improved over the last decade.

I thought this was the crux of the entire AmmoGate, that these 5.56 NATO rounds with steel tips would penetrate all the soft armor whereas a standard .223 round might penetrate most soft armor available to police forces.

But maybe I've misunderstood something. It certainly is possible as I am no gun expert and don't own a gun using this caliber.

I see this article from 2011 that supports G.I.'s point that this 5.56 ammo is not armor-piercing and that the BATFE had actually taken it off the list of officially designated armor-piercing ammos.

First it is armor piercing. Then it wasn't armor piercing. Now it has started piercing armor again. It's kind unpredictable. Or the BATFE is. One or the other.

This ammo needs to make up its mind.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   10:38:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GrandIsland (#8)

The same writer at ItsTactical.com weighed in with a 2015 update on what the feds do and do not consider to constitute an armor-piercing bullet. He includes the .22, as you do, and mentions when it is and is not considered an AP bullet.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   10:49:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: TooConservative (#10)

"First it is armor piercing. Then it wasn't armor piercing. Now it has started piercing armor again. It's kind unpredictable. Or the BATFE is. One or the other."

Similar argument to "assault weapons" versus "assault-style weapons". Gun grabbers intentionally confuse the two.

Here, it's "armor piercing" versus "soft-body-armor piercing". Those are two different types of ammunition. When I think "armor piercing" I think of a projectile capable of penetrating steel, not a bullet-proof vest.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-05   11:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: sneakypete (#7)

" IIRC,standard military ammo is supposed to be able to penetrate a helmet at 100 yards, "

That is my memory as well.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-03-05   12:31:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: TooConservative (#10) (Edited)

You tested on recent designs of quality armor? The quality of soft armor is greatly improved over the last decade.

I was allowed to test the latest and best technology from 6 years prior.

Most ballistic vest manufactures recommend that a ballistic vest be taken out of service after 6 years. Studies show that moisture breaks down the ballistic fibers effectiveness. Sweating by an officer was thought to degrade the vest. Most departments (responsible ones) buy their officers new vests every 6 years or so.

I was allowed to test the outdated vests. I tested 6 year old PACA level IIIA vests without trauma plates.

I even have mine in my basement, older than 6 years old, with a trauma plate and carrier.

I found that after 6 years, not one vest failed against a handgun round it was supposed to defeat. So in my opinion, they don't degrade with age. That's why I kept mine at retirement.

There is a huge difference between rifle and pistol rounds in regards to penetration. The biggest factor IMHO is not what the bullet is made out of, but the speed of the projectile.

Any copper jacketed LEAD bullet, pushed in the upper 2000 - 3000 plus feet per second range will penetrate any level IIIA, soft body armor vest. The bullet does not need a steel or tungsten core... to defeat balistic fiber.

Now, in all honesty, I've never tested vests with steel core handgun rounds. So I couldn't tell you how a steel core projectile at 1100-1400 fps would perform. I do not know if a 1300 fps steel core pistol round will penetrate like a 2700 fps copper jacked lead RIFLE projectile. I'd be interested to know that data.

Notable rounds I tested:

I own a S&W 500. I load a hollow point Speer Gold Dot bullet. I shot a vest twice. One failed to penetrate and one did go through one panel. I have the projectiles, I can photo them and someone else can post if the wanna see the expanded bullets.

I could never get any .44 caliber reload to penetrate a vest panel. Not hard cast lead (practice ammo) or 240 grain hollow point (my hunting loads)

Of the times I tested .12 gauge lead rifled slugs... none penetrated all the way through but the trauma to the vest panel was significant.

A sabot .12 gauge will penetrate a vest panel.

.22 Mag will defeat a level IIIA vest... narrow bullet moving fast is a bad combination for balistic fiber.

Regardless of my tests, soft body armor is only designed to defeat PISTOL or HANDGUN ammo. Banning a rifle cartridge because it will defeat a level IIIA vest, if it were shot from a pistol, is IGNORANT.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-05   13:51:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: GrandIsland (#14)

A sabot .12 gauge will penetrate a vest panel.

.22 Mag will defeat a level IIIA vest... narrow bullet moving fast is a bad combination for balistic fiber.

Interesting test results overall.

Regardless of my tests, soft body armor is only designed to defeat PISTOL or HANDGUN ammo. Banning a rifle cartridge because it will defeat a level IIIA vest, if it were shot from a pistol, is IGNORANT.

If my aunt had balls, ...

    : )

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   14:36:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: TooConservative (#15)

If my aunt had balls, ...

She'd be my very strange UNCLE. lol

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-05   14:39:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GrandIsland (#16)

I'm not sure how I summoned that odd little joke to argue my point but it seemed to fit. Maybe I'm going senile.     : )

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   14:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: TooConservative (#0)

Thanks. Heard about this on one of the FNC shows last night.

"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-05   17:15:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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