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Title: W.Va. Senate OKs bill to allow concealed carry without permit
Source:
The Charleston Gazette
URL Source: http://www.wvgazette.com/article/20150227/GZ01/150229285
Published: Mar 3, 2015
Author: Eric Eyre
Post Date: 2015-03-03 18:58:33 by Hondo68
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Keywords: inherent right, God given CCW, natural rights
Views: 32007
Comments: 113
Senators approved a bill Friday that could make West Virginia the sixth state to allow residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit. After reading aloud from the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, senators voted 32-2 for a bill (SB347) that allows people 18 and older to tote concealed guns. “The bill eliminates the crime of carrying a concealed weapon in West Virginia,” said Sen. Charles Trump, R-Morgan. The legislation next goes to the House of Delegates. Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming are the only states that allow residents to carry a hidden gun without a permit. West Virginia already allows open carry of a handgun without a permit. West Virginia law enforcement officials have expressed concern about the bill. They said the legislation could put officers more at risk. They also noted that the weapons-permit fees generate funds for sheriff’s departments across the state. Last year, the permits raised $3.4 million for the departments. However, senators who supported the bill kept coming back to the Second Amendment. “This is a United States constitutional right,” said Robert Karnes, R-Upshur. “The Second Amendment recognizes this inherent right.” Sens. Corey Palumbo, D-Kanawha, and Ron Miller, D-Greenbrier, voted against the bill. Sen. Mike Romano, D-Harrison, supported the concealed-carry permit repeal, but first offered what he called “common-sense” revisions that his colleagues ultimately rejected. Romano wanted to require that residents be at least 21 years old before they could carry a handgun without a permit. “To carry a .357 Magnum, we really should require them to be 21 years of age,” Romano said. But other senators said a 21-and-up age limit was “arbitrary.” “At the age of 18, we’re talking about parents of small children,” Karnes said. “And we’re going to say an 18-year-old who is able to enter into the contract of marriage, to have children, is not responsible enough to defend the family that he has?” Romano also wanted to require people to take a handgun safety course before they could carry a concealed weapon. Karnes argued that the training requirement was a “backdoor licensing scheme,” and senators voted down the amendment. Romano later voted for the bill that didn’t include any of his suggested changes. “I concluded long ago that the permitting process through the sheriff’s department is simply a hurdle for law-abiding citizens who carry a gun,” Romano said. “Criminals will carry a gun regardless of the process.”
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#29. To: Fred Mertz (#25)
Thanks Fred
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
I aim to please. Would you please aim.
I laugh at you all the time, grandi... You're a funny guy, in every way..
Good, in every way. A sense of humor is important.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
You were in the Navy,so your fingerprints are already on file. You have nothing to lose.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
No, they aren't.
Yeah,they are. Everybody in the military that had a security clearance has their fingerprints on file. Maybe even those who didn't have security clearances,for all I know. I had a Secret clearance when I was a Private E-2 because I was trained to work with cryptographic machines and code pads,and everybody in SF has a Secret or Top Secret security clearance. It's a basic requirement. I may be wrong,but I THINK I have read that the military now even keeps DNA samples from all service members in order to make their remains identifiable if needed in the future. Or are you trying to tell us that you were a Naval officer without a security clearance? Or that security clearances weren't a requirement for Naval officers?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I have no idea of what you are talking about.
I have no idea of what you are talking about. Didn't you say you were a Naval officer that served aboard ships?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Never.
Not sure about military, but almost all cops are finger printed. I wasn't in 1994 but my department started fingerprinting just after I was hired.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
They started collecting DNA samples about 18-20 years ago.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
So what would you think of a mandatory one time class that would teach you how to carry and use a handgun responsibly? Especially the legal aspects of your actions if you have to use it. There are some people out there who have no clue whatsoever and would be more dangerous to innocents than to bad guys.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
I don't mind the idea... I'm concerned in two areas over the idea. 1) Can we trust any government, Fed, State or local, that hosts such a training, to not track or compile personal info from class applicants, for the purpose of knowing who is armed with handguns? 2) Who pays for the training, and I don't want another government agency responsible for the task or an existing growing bigger to handle the task. If those can be solved, great idea. I've seen some pretty poor firearm handling skills in my time.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
There are some people out there who have no clue whatsoever and would be more dangerous to innocents than to bad guys. I think everyone if they have one brain cell, should take a certified NRA safety and shooting class. It's just responsible gun ownership and citizenship. Did I say mandatory? No! Just responsible. Especially for those who have not handled guns in their civilian, military or law enforcement lives. Nothing worse than some idiot who just got a 'new toy' going around like John Wayne.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
would be more dangerous to innocents than to bad guys Registration leads to confiscation. History has proven that governments are the most dangerous.
A classic. LOL.
Many states have training for all young people getting hunting licenses. Like between ages 10 to 30. Above 30, they don't have to take the class. To actually hunt, a 10yo has to be accompanied by a trained hunter who is certified and is at least 18yo and he can only take out one apprentice hunter at a time. I find this a little restrictive but most states that go in this direction have very few complaints. Often, these classes are conducted by local sheriffs or deputies for free or for a modest fee. Some states have the same kind of system for bow certification and apprentice hunting for young bow hunters. I recall a friend of mine and how he bragged that his daughter out-scored and out-shot the dozen 10yo boys that she took the class with. But then, I also recalled her at age seven walking around in her little purple eyeglasses with her favorite dolly in one hand and her .22 rifle in the other, out to hunt with her dad. Couldn't have been any cuter.
We need more young ladies like!
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Sorry about that. I thought you were a veteran.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Wouldn't they pretty much have to have your fingerprints on file so they could eliminate them at crime scenes? I honestly don't have a clue why anybody would worry about the government having their fingerprints on file unless they are or plan on being career criminals. It ain't like cops stop you on the street at random and take your fingerprints to see if you are who you say you are.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I remember that one from years ago. Got to give the foot shot guy credit for maintaining his composure. LOL
LOL! Why don't you just go ahead and show up at my door with a wheelchair and attendants to take me to the "home"? Geeze! Some people really know how to rub it in.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
It has been MY experience that these people are afraid of guns,realize they know nothing about how to handle these dangerous instruments,and look up people like me who are more experienced with them for training and advise. Sadly,they usually don't listen to my advise about what to buy and carry because they always want to have what the cops and action star tv and movie guys carry. Had one woman in her late 50's who had never shot or even held a handgun before insist on buying a 1911A1 because that is what I was carrying,and there wasn't a thing in the world I could say to her to convince her that wasn't a "beginner's gun". Other than that they do listen about safe handling.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
No. They are governments,and governments are bureaucracies that love paperwork and records like the Pope loves God. They just can't help themselves. Why not let gun shops offer firearms training,and insist any records they keep be kept private without individual warrants? Even if they aren't interested themselves,they definitely have a customer base they can tap into that would be willing to take on part-time jobs teaching firearms safety and shooting.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The only time a department would require fingerprints or DNA from an officer, is if they contaminated a scene while investigating it. They do fingerprints now for new hires for crime checks. To make sure a new hire doesn't have a print that matches a hit on a nationwide data base.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
Not a bad idea
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
You aint that old yet pete, as stubborn as you are you'll live to be at least 90! BTW you're only as old as you act. The one question I have is do they keep these DNA samples forever or do they get rid of them after you get out or retire? And if they do keep them can the government use them against you in any criminal case they may bring against you? Cause at the time they were taken they were "not voluntarily" taken?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
When I find someone who wants to learn to shoot and buy a handgun I tell them the first thing they need to do is learn to shoot with a .22 (especially women). Hopefully they know someone that has one they can use to learn with but if not then go to the local gun shops and find something that fits their hand really well, is comfortable. Once they have done that then some gun shops that have ranges will let you take that weapon for a "test ride" for a nominal fee. After they have learned how to shoot then repeat the gun shop process to find the weapon they want in the physical size and caliber they want. I've taught I don't know how many women to shoot and this seems to work the best. Most women are naturally afraid of weapons and if you take one out to shoot with a .38 or a 9MM they first time around you usually do nothing but reinforce to them "WHY" they are afraid of weapons, that's why I start with the .22. This way they "usually" find out that shooting is fun and or more willing to progress to the larger calibers, big enough for CCW.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
You should assume they'll keep them forever. If nothing else, some bureaucrat in charge of the Pentagon's Department Of DNA Records will argue that it's valuable scientific information and represents valuable government research materials. And request more funding to handle storing and filing the info. I'm only half-kidding here.
Beats me,but since it is the government we are talking about and they employ whole hordes of people to maintain and shuffle records,my guess would be "you bet your bippy!" Bureaucracies have to have records ripped from their cold,dead fingers. It's the nature of the beast. And if they do keep them can the government use them against you in any criminal case they may bring against you? I am not a lawyur and don't even play one on teebee,but my best guess would be "Hell YEAH!" when it comes to federal cases. Non-federal criminal cases would probably require a warrant. Cause at the time they were taken they were "not voluntarily" taken? They WERE voluntarily taken. These people enlisted,and voluntarily signed a contract that had collecting DNA as a part of the deal.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I always carried a variety of handguns and calibers to these classes so they could see what fit their hand the best,felt the best,fit in their purses the best,and were the most comfortable for them to shoot. Frankly,I always started out with a 30's S&W 22 caliber Kit Gun. This later became known as the K-22 and was built on the full-sized 38 Special frame. With that weight,the adjustable sights,and the 6 inch barrel,recoil and noise was never a problem for any of them with the 22. Then I went up to a PPK or Beretta .380,a P-35 Browning in 9mm,a Khar-9 pocket pistol,38 Special,357 Magnum,44 Special,and my custom combat commander 45 acp that I built myself. Even though I ALWAYS insisted they understand that a double action revolver was safer for novices to carry or use for home defense,I thought they needed to see and understand the mechanical complications of auto-loaders. That way when I pointed out to them that revolvers didn't have safeties to remember to take off before firing,and that you could tell if one was loaded or not by glancing at it without having to leverage anything,it made sense to them. Or to most of them,anyway. The granny that ended up buying the full-sized 1911A1 wanted to learn to shoot and buy a guy that she could keep in her apron pocket while she was running her retail shop. She obviously needed something small and lightweight,so I tried to talk her into a hammerless 38 Special,or one with a hammer shroud so she could have the gun in her hand if someone made her suspiscious without having to take it out of her apron and pointing it at them,and if push came to shove,she could shoot it right through the apron pocket without having a jam from the slide grabbing the apron cloth when it went back. It didn't make a nickel's worth of difference to her. She still bought the 1911A1. About 2 years later she called me about 2 AM one morning and whispered to me that her husgand was working out of town,she was all alone in the house,and she thought somebody had broken into her house downstairs. She wanted to know how to load her 1911A1 because DESPITE my repeating over and over that a unloaded gun is nothing but an expensive club,she was afraid of leaving it loaded in her dresser drawer. I guess she thought it would open the drawer one night all by itself and go on a killing spree. Anyhow,I told her how to load it and then called her local police chief (a friend of mine and her husbands) and asked him to send somebody around to CAREFULLY check on her because she was scared and had a loaded gun. Maybe 15 yeas has passed since then,and AFAIK she still has that 1911A1 and still doesn't have a 38 revolver. You can lead a horse to water........
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You can bet money on it,and in this case he would be right. I have no doubt at all that in the near future deceased homeless people as well as murder and accident victims will be identified by the DNA samples they gave in the military. And request more funding to handle storing and filing the info. The most accurate statement anyone has ever written. Rates right up there with "The sun will rise in the east."
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The DoD established a program to take samples in 1991. "As of December 2002, the Repository, now known as the “Armed Forces Repository of Specimen Samples for the Identification of Remains,” contained the DNA of approximately 3.2 million service members." They get everybody on entry these days.
And if they do keep them can the government use them against you in any criminal case they may bring against you? Cause at the time they were taken they were "not voluntarily" taken? http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-10/subtitle-a/part-ii/chapter-80/section-1565a/ Title 10 - Armed Forces Subtitle A - General Military Law (§§ 101 - 2925) Part II - PERSONNEL (§§ 501 - 1805) Chapter 80 - MISCELLANEOUS INVESTIGATION REQUIREMENTS AND OTHER DUTIES (§§ 1561 - 1567a) Section 1565a - DNA samples maintained for identification of human remains: use for law enforcement purposes MISCELLANEOUS INVESTIGATION REQUIREMENTS AND OTHER DUTIES - 10 U.S.C. § 1565a (2012) §1565a. DNA samples maintained for identification of human remains: use for law enforcement purposes (a) Compliance with Court Order.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), if a valid order of a Federal court (or military judge) so requires, an element of the Department of Defense that maintains a repository of DNA samples for the purpose of identification of human remains shall make available, for the purpose specified in subsection (b), such DNA samples on such terms and conditions as such court (or military judge) directs. (2) A DNA sample with respect to an individual shall be provided under paragraph (1) in a manner that does not compromise the ability of the Department of Defense to maintain a sample with respect to that individual for the purpose of identification of human remains. (b) Covered Purpose.—The purpose referred to in subsection (a) is the purpose of an investigation or prosecution of a felony, or any sexual offense, for which no other source of DNA information is reasonably available. (c) Definition.—In this section, the term “DNA sample” has the meaning given such term in section 1565(c) of this title. (Added Pub. L. 107–314, div. A, title X, §1063(a), Dec. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 2653.)
Sound to me like, in practice, the Pentagon would have a lot of discretion in allowing their samples to be used for civilian police investigations.
Thanks for the definitive answer to the question.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Leave the training in the hands of the Certified CCW trainers which in my area are just normal run of the mill citizens, not a government agency. They would keep track of your training, issue you a certificate of completion for you to have and the only way those records would only be available to the authorities is if you are arrested/convicted of a weapons related incident and they would be used for acquitting/sentencing purposes. Sound feasible or am I overlooking something?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
The person who wants to carry the weapon, somewhere around $75 - 125 which is the current typical cost for CCW training. For those who are proficient they could demonstrate that at the beginning of the class, and would only have to sit thru the lectures and be charged less. If you are a beginner then you have to go thru both the lectures and safety training and pay the full fee.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
As they do with our finger prints on file. All but a few MOSs require a security clearance. Thus finger prints are provided. That gets stored in the national database. Why you see all those CSI or NCIS shows have someone say "let me check the military and federal worker database." That I believe is pretty accurate.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Some manufacturers now make .22 caliber versions of larger caliber weapons like 1911s, Sig Sauers and a few others. Or they make what they call a .22 adapter kit and you use the same frame for both/multiple calibers. Makes learning to shoot and practicing with multiple calibers seamless with less transition between the two cause they "feel" the same, which basically they are. And can also save you a bit of money to boot.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
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#30. To: GrandIsland (#29)
Thanks Fred
#31. To: GrandIsland (#28)
Where is your sense of humor?
#32. To: tpaine (#31)
I laugh at you all the time, grandi... You're a funny guy, in every way
#33. To: TooConservative (#7)
Fingerprinted like some criminal? No thanks.
#34. To: sneakypete (#33)
#35. To: TooConservative (#34)
No, they aren't.
#36. To: sneakypete (#35)
Or are you trying to tell us that you were a Naval officer without a security clearance? Or that security clearances weren't a requirement for Naval officers?
#37. To: TooConservative (#36)
Or are you trying to tell us that you were a Naval officer without a security clearance? Or that security clearances weren't a requirement for Naval officers?
#38. To: sneakypete (#37)
#39. To: sneakypete (#35)
Everybody in the military that had a security clearance has their fingerprints on file. Maybe even those who didn't have security clearances,for all I know.
#40. To: sneakypete (#35)
I may be wrong,but I THINK I have read that the military now even keeps DNA samples from all service members in order to make their remains identifiable if needed in the future.
#41. To: hondo68, GrandIsland, tpaine, redleghunter (#0)
Senators approved a bill Friday that could make West Virginia the sixth state to allow residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit.
#42. To: CZ82 (#41)
So what would you think of a mandatory one time class that would teach you how to carry and use a handgun responsibly? Especially the legal aspects of your actions if you have to use it.
#43. To: CZ82, hondo68, GrandIsland, tpaine (#41)
So what would you think of a mandatory one time class that would teach you how to carry and use a handgun responsibly? Especially the legal aspects of your actions if you have to use it.
#44. To: CZ82 (#41)
what would you think of a mandatory one time class
Highly trained government LEO explains.... The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#45. To: hondo68 (#44)
#46. To: redleghunter, GrandIsland (#43)
(Edited)
I think everyone if they have one brain cell, should take a certified NRA safety and shooting class. It's just responsible gun ownership and citizenship. Did I say mandatory? No! Just responsible. Especially for those who have not handled guns in their civilian, military or law enforcement lives.
#47. To: TooConservative (#46)
But then, I also recalled her at age seven walking around in her little purple eyeglasses with her favorite dolly in one hand and her .22 rifle in the other, out to hunt with her dad. Couldn't have been any cuter.
#48. To: TooConservative (#38)
Never.
#49. To: GrandIsland (#39)
Not sure about military, but almost all cops are finger printed.
#50. To: hondo68 (#44)
#51. To: CZ82 (#40)
They started collecting DNA samples about 18-20 years ago.
#52. To: CZ82 (#41)
There are some people out there who have no clue whatsoever and would be more dangerous to innocents than to bad guys.
#53. To: GrandIsland (#42)
1) Can we trust any government, Fed, State or local, that hosts such a training, to not track or compile personal info from class applicants, for the purpose of knowing who is armed with handguns?
#54. To: sneakypete (#49)
(Edited)
Wouldn't they pretty much have to have your fingerprints on file so they could eliminate them at crime scenes?
#55. To: sneakypete (#53)
Why not let gun shops offer firearms training,and insist any records they keep be kept private without individual warrants? Even if they aren't interested themselves,they definitely have a customer base they can tap into that would be willing to t
#56. To: sneakypete, redleghunter, TooConservative, Nolu Chan (#51)
Geeze! Some people really know how to rub it in.
#57. To: sneakypete (#52)
Sadly,they usually don't listen to my advise about what to buy and carry because they always want to have what the cops and action star tv and movie guys carry. Had one woman in her late 50's who had never shot or even held a handgun before insist on buying a 1911A1 because that is what I was carrying,and there wasn't a thing in the world I could say to her to convince her that wasn't a "beginner's gun".
#58. To: CZ82 (#56)
The one question I have is do they keep these DNA samples forever or do they get rid of them after you get out or retire?
#59. To: CZ82 (#56)
The one question I have is do they keep these DNA samples forever or do they get rid of them after you get out or retire?
#60. To: CZ82 (#57)
When I find someone who wants to learn to shoot and buy a handgun I tell them the first thing they need to do is learn to shoot with a .22 (especially women).
#61. To: TooConservative (#58)
If nothing else, some bureaucrat in charge of the Pentagon's Department Of DNA Records will argue that it's valuable scientific information and represents valuable government research materials.
#62. To: CZ82, sneakypete (#40)
They started collecting DNA samples about 18-20 years ago.
#63. To: CZ82, redleghunter, TooConservative (#56)
The one question I have is do they keep these DNA samples forever or do they get rid of them after you get out or retire?
2012 US Code
#64. To: nolu chan (#63)
#65. To: nolu chan (#62)
#66. To: GrandIsland (#42)
1) Can we trust any government, Fed, State or local, that hosts such a training, to not track or compile personal info from class applicants, for the purpose of knowing who is armed with handguns?
#67. To: GrandIsland (#42)
2) Who pays for the training, and I don't want another government agency responsible for the task or an existing growing bigger to handle the task.
#68. To: TooConservative, Nolu chan, CZ82, sneakypete (#64)
Sound to me like, in practice, the Pentagon would have a lot of discretion in allowing their samples to be used for civilian police investigations.
#69. To: sneakypete (#60)
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