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Computers-Hacking
See other Computers-Hacking Articles

Title: Booting from flash drive (Win 7 - XP)
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://ChuckW
Published: Mar 2, 2015
Author: Chuck_Wagon
Post Date: 2015-03-02 15:53:26 by Chuck_Wagon
Keywords: None
Views: 29680
Comments: 123

Just suppose that I wanted to create a machine that would
boot from a USB flash drive - a relatively big flash drive -
32gb to 64gb - or whatever is required.
And I wanted this thing to boot either Win7 or XP.
Anybody here have any experience with such an experience?

FYI - I am planning to create this thing on a new Zotac
'ZBox' with a Celeron processor and 4GB of memory (which I
have - the memory - not the Zbox).

So what I'm basically trying to do is create a 'disk-less'
computer. Shouldn't be fraught with problems - Eh?

Thanks for any help / insight!

ZBOX 1320-U:

(1 image)

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: Chuck_Wagon (#0) (Edited)

You likely be better off with smaller notebook 2.5" flash drive that is designed for use as a system drive. Typically these have RAM for caching data and eliminating a lot of disk rewrites (that would shorten a USB flash drive's lifetime). And they have a true disk interface. USB just isn't as good.

USB is also potentially a source for unstoppable computer viruses to hide out.

Look at Amazon and you'll find 32GB Crucial solid-state drives with 3Gbps SATA interface for $38 or instead choose a 128GB Seagate drive with 6Gbps SATA3 interface for under $60 (I'd urge you to consider this one as it is a reputable drive with a good record, very fast, and will work quite well with these Zotac units you're considering and it is four times bigger with a better interface for only twice the price).

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-02   17:54:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Chuck_Wagon (#0)

Have you tried WinToUSB?

Otherwise, you can burn an iso to a usb drive if you have a bootable cd of windows.

cranky  posted on  2015-03-02   18:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Chuck_Wagon (#0)

And I wanted this thing to boot either Win7 or XP.
Anybody here have any experience with such an experience?

No, I don't know anything about how to do that with Windows.
I assume that Microsoft's obsession with copyright protection would make that pretty difficult.
But I haven't really used Windows much since they dropped support for Win 98, so what do I know?

But as a more constructive suggestion, I have used UNetbootin to create bootable Live USB drives to install Linux on a hard drive (instead of burning installation CDs or DVDs)

On the other hand, Google turns up quite a few alternative approaches that don't look too difficult.

Article I, Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-02   18:31:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: TooConservative, Chuck_Wagon (#1)

You likely be better off with smaller notebook 2.5" flash drive that is designed for use as a system drive

I agree. USB thumbdrives are great for portability, and using "your computer" on different actual machines (like a repair technician might do.) But USB drives are also very slow compared to an internal drive.

I just received a ZBOX 1320-U with 4Gb of RAM on Saturday and put a Western Digital 320 Gb SATA II drive in it that I bought last year for $45. Today it's only $30 + shipping, and the newer/faster SATA III is $39 & FREE SHIPPING.

Working great with mint linux installed. But running off the USB (thumb drive and external dvd) is noticeablly slower than the internal hard drive.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-02   19:00:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Willie Green, Chuck_Wagon (#4)

Working great with mint linux installed. But running off the USB (thumb drive and external dvd) is noticeablly slower than the internal hard drive.

USB3, just as with USB2, does not actually maintain the advertised maximum speed of the interface in sustained data transfers.

IOW, even if the interface is rated at the same speed, SATA or Firewire always beat USB2 or USB3 at the same rated speeds. A USB3 flash drive running at 5Gbps is much slower than any common SATA3 6Gbps solid-state drive.

Using USB flash drives as a system drive only makes sense for portability between various computers. Since these are bookshelf computers to begin with, the portability can't be much of an issue. And the drive controller on a hard drive is just much better than a USB flash drive and has RAM cache that really helps the speed and reduces the rewrites.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-02   19:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Chuck_Wagon (#0)

Just suppose that I wanted to create a machine that would boot from a USB flash drive - a relatively big flash drive - 32gb to 64gb - or whatever is required. And I wanted this thing to boot either Win7 or XP.

Forget it.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-03-02   21:26:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Willie Green, TooConservative, Pridie.Nones, cranky (#4)

...noticeablly slower...

...forget it..

The only reason I am considering this bootable USB
option is the problem of installing a 2.5 inch
drive in a little bookshelf case.

I have a little problem - my right hand and arm are
mostly paralyzed - which makes working on itsy bitsy,
teeny, tiny things like SATA connectors difficult
for me to do. So I was thinking: "If I can..." -
I'm sure y'all get the general idea I was getting at.
'Ease of assembly' was what I was aiming for.

See, last time I had to do something like this, Staples
charged me $40 bucks. Which isn't really that much,
but it annoys me to pay that to do something as simple
as install a hard drive. I have a friend who is competent
enough to do it, but I don't want to keep annoying him
with my problems. I have another friend who used to run
his own computer/electronics repair shop - but he and
wife and kids moved to West Virginia.

So if I'm going to pack all of the parts into a box and ship
it to WV with a note and cash for return shipping, and
annoy HIM, I might as well grab my wallet and drive 2 miles
to Staples...

Thanks for your help folks!

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-03   12:37:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Chuck_Wagon (#7)

You need more friends. I hate asking for favors too, but when I do they are cheerfully honored.

What you are asking for is a very small favor. And YouTube will likely show your friend exactly how to do it. I learn lots of useful things from YouTube videos.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-03   12:46:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Chuck_Wagon, all (#0)

SSD drives are the way to go, and some are fairly in-expensive.

I built a desktop computer last year, and put my OS on a SSD. It boots up in seconds.

Shortly prior to that I purchased a Samsung NPSeries 9 Ultrabook, with a 128 GB SSD for a hard drive. I've owned lots of laptops, but none compared to this one. I did finally run out of disc space, and so I'm going to have to sell and replace it.

I ordered another Samsung Ultrabook, with 256 GB SSD (NP940X3G-K04US. I'm sold on SSD's.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-03-03   13:02:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Fred Mertz, Chuck_Wagon (#8)

The only reason I am considering this bootable USB option is the problem of installing a 2.5 inch drive in a little bookshelf case.

And YouTube will likely show your friend exactly how to do it.

Actually, I found installing the 2 sticks of RAM to be more difficult than slipping in the hard drive. But this YouTube shows the hard drive being inserted, so you can judge for yourself: Zotac ZBOX BI320 Mini-PC Overview - Newegg TV

And here is another YouTube that shows both the hard drive and RAM being installed on an older model: Zotac ZBOX HD-ID11 - How to Upgrade (The only difference is the newer model takes 2 sticks of RAM instead of just one.)

I haven't tried this one-handed, but assuming that you still have fairly normal dexterity in your left arm, I don't think this should be too difficult for you to accomplish on your own. It's not like older desktops with 5¼" floppy or CD drives or 3½" hard drives with those ribbon connectors and power connectors that can be such a pain in the butt, even with two good hands. These newer 2½" drives that they use in laptops really just slip in a slot quite easily.

But watch the videos and judge for yourself. The most difficult part is getting it (and the RAM) lined up with the connector at the right angle to slip them in place.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-03   14:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Chuck_Wagon (#7)

See, last time I had to do something like this, Staples charged me $40 bucks.

A five minute job.

Surely you could hire a neighborhood kid to do this for you. If you can handle opening and closing the case yourself, it's a two-minute job.

Watch Willie's vids. A lot of laptops and tiny PCs with 2.5" drives are built so that the drive is almost self-guiding into a groove and onto the SATA data/power connectors. It is much much easier than messing around with IDE cables and power cords.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-03   15:33:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: TooConservative (#11)

Surely you could hire a neighborhood kid to do this for you.

I pay 'friends for favors' with beer.

My neighbor won't take any money, but he will take a bottle of Canadian Mist. He's helped me more than a few times over the past twenty years.

My friend's wife needed a ride to the tavern last week while he was working on getting his car's starter working. She wanted to buy me six beers (a bucket). One was sufficient for me. That's how we roll.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-03   15:39:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Fred Mertz (#12)

I pay 'friends for favors' with beer.

That works too.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-03   15:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: TooConservative, Fred Mertz (#11)

Try doing it with one hand.
A pain in the zorch - trust me.
Many things are.
Try changing a tire one-handed. Ehhh.....

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-03   16:11:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Chuck_Wagon (#14)

Don't do it yourself, you g**damned retard. Get help from a friend or neighbor or kid.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, since you don't listen very well.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-03   16:18:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Chuck_Wagon, TooConservative, Fred Mertz (#14)

Try doing it with one hand.
A pain in the zorch - trust me.

Don't do it yourself, you g**damned retard.

Well they lopped-off my left leg above-the-knee a-year-ago-Christmas, so I'm not as unsympathetic to your plight as Fred. But seeing as I actually have a Z-Box, I decided to conduct an experiment and accept your challenge.

And I am quite pleased to report: Success!!!

Using ONLY my left hand (and I'm right-handed):

  • I opened the case of my Z-Box.
  • I removed the hard drive
  • I reinstalled the hard drive
  • I removed 1 stick of RAM
  • I decided removing the 2nd stick of RAM was unnecessary and wouldn't prove anything
  • I replaced the 1st stick of RAM
  • I closed the cover on my Z-Box and plugged everything back together.

Yeah, it is a bit more awkward than using two hands (especially since my left hand is all thumbs.) Nevertheless, the whole experiment didn't take me much more than 10~15 minutes, if that much.

But in the end, you'll have to judge for yourself whether you think you're up to it or not... Just don't go spending $40 for somebody to do it for you... it's waaaaaaay too easy... I'd say $5 max... or just buy him a beer...

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-03   18:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Chuck_Wagon (#0)

So what I'm basically trying to do is create a 'disk-less' computer.

Why?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-03   18:49:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Willie Green (#16)

Nice post.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-03   18:50:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Willie Green (#16)

Okay.

Sorry about your leg.

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-03   19:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Chuck_Wagon (#19)

Thanks... it definitely slows me down a bit, but it's not as bad as I would have imagined... and hopefully I'll get approval for a prosthesis after my cardiologist gets a couple more tests done,

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-03   20:50:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Fred Mertz (#15)

I couldn't resist, since you don't listen very well.

I take after my Mom.
YOU get her to listen to my investment advice.
It's utterly impossible.

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-03   20:55:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Willie Green (#20)

Yeah - I have a MOFO brace on my lower right leg -
and braces on my right arm (Which I no longer wear).
Work out 3 times a week at the gym.
The exercises no longer seem to help a Lot.
But the leg presses got me out of the wheelchair.
So that's definitely something, eh?
So on I go.

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-03   21:11:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Willie Green (#16) (Edited)

And I am quite pleased to report: Success!!!

Good job. Thanks for the inspiration in your experiment.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-03-03   21:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Chuck_Wagon (#21)

YOU get her to listen to my investment advice.

It's how our aging parents get even with us for being rotten all those times when we were kids.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   2:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Chuck_Wagon, Fred Mertz (#22)

But the leg presses got me out of the wheelchair.
So that's definitely something, eh?

Yeah... being in a wheelchair isn't much fun, but I don't complain about it since I'm actually much better off physically than many others. For instance, I can pretty easily stand up and hop around on one leg using my walker (I call it my hopper.) I suppose I could use crutches if I wanted, but I don't trust them. The walker has more stability when I plant it solidly on the ground to help me hop.
So that's how I get myself to the grocery store:

  • I wheel myself out to the car & open the trunk.
  • I get my walker out of the trunk and unfold it.
  • I stand-up and then sit on the lip of the trunk
  • I fold up the wheel chair and stash it in the trunk
  • I stand up, close the trunk & use the walker to hop to the driver's door.
  • I open the door, plop my butt in the driver's seat, fold-up the walker & stash it in the back seat.
  • Drive whereever I want (Thank goodness for automatic transmissions) & then reverse the process to get back in my chair.

Self-serve gas stations are a pain in the patoot, but I manage. At other stores, I can push around a full-size shopping cart if I have to, but I prefer the smaller carts or hand-baskets if they have them. And inside the grocery store, it's pretty easy for me to lock my wheels and stand up to get something off the top shelf... or to get my wallet out of my hip pocket at the check-out line.

So all-in-all, I have nothing to complain about... I get along very well... Just hoping a prosthetic leg will help get me accomplish things a little quicker... believe me, although I can do it, pumping gas is REALLY tedious right now...

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-04   8:03:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Willie Green (#25)

...being in a wheelchair isn't much fun...

Nope, it ain't.
I was in one for 22 months. Then I stood up.

Good luck to you!

I still use these for grocery and other shopping:

Can't decide which I prefer: The Amigo, or the Smart Cart... LOL

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   8:38:01 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Chuck_Wagon (#26)

The Amigo, or the Smart Cart... LOL

I've never seen the luxury model with the fancy armrests...
But then, I only use those things when I go shopping with someone else who can bring them out to the car for me to use. I rarely find one out in the parking lot that I can get to by myself, and once I get my own chair out of the trunk, it just isn't worth switching to the electric chair inside the store. Besides, if I do that, then what am I supposed to do with my own chair while I shop? Just leave it there where someone else might think that it belongs to the store & start using it?

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-04   9:06:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: TooConservative (#24)

...how our aging parents get even with us for being rotten...

Hey, I was a GREAT kid. With the possible exception of
when I was a teenager. And we won't discuss that one
time when my mother had to pick me up at the police
station. It was a big MISUNDERSTANG - but no one listened...

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   9:10:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Chuck_Wagon (#28) (Edited)

Obviously you were beyond suspicion. It's so unfair.

So are you going to follow Willy's advice and install your own 2.5" hard drive? It was the point of the thread.

I like for how-to threads to resolve themselves into action.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   9:15:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: sneakypete, Chuck_Wagon (#29)

I like for how-to threads to resolve themselves into action.

So did you find ever someone to trench that Ethernet cable out to your shop for Roku streaming there? I kinda wondered if the ground got too frozen for that to be a winter project.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   9:20:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Willie Green (#27)

Just leave it there(?)

Shoprite (grocery store) has a policy that a bagger or
someone has to accompany 'riding cart' riders
out to their cars (then they ride the cart back) or at
least out to the front vestibule place (where all the
regular shopping carts are) in order to make sure that
it is plugged in for recharge.

I choose the 'vestibule' option, park the cart, and then
set out with my quad cane:

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   9:24:04 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: TooConservative (#29)

I like for how-to threads to resolve themselves into action.

First I'm going to find my set of jewelers screwdrivers
(I'm pretty sure I know where they are) - then when
I take delivery on the bookshelf PC I shall place it
on the workbench and see if I can do the task at hand
myself. (Installing the internal drive, I mean.)

If yes - I shall proceed to do it. If no I will take the
mess to Staples and spend $40.

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   9:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: TooConservative, Chuck_Wagon (#29)

I like for how-to threads to resolve themselves into action.

The Z-Box with 4 Gb RAM, a 2½" hard drive and 64-bit Linux Mint 17.1 "Rebecca" Xfce Edition is working great for me. That's what I'm using right now.
Of course, you're welcome to use Windows or whatever other Linux distribution you choose. I just hope I convinced you that installing an internal drive isn't too difficult. Using a USB drive is OK for installing Windows or Linux TO the internal drive, but they're much too slow for normal every day use. You'll be much happier with the internal 2½" drive.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-04   9:35:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Chuck_Wagon (#32)

First I'm going to find my set of jewelers screwdrivers

Unnecessary...
There are only 3 knurled thumb screws to remove: 2 on the outside/back of the case and 1 inside the case holding the hard drive in place. Unless they're too tight, you should be able to unscrew them with your fingers. But just in case, they are slotted and you might be able to loosen them using a dime or a "regular" small screwdriver. Jewelers screwdrivers might be a little too small.

DON'T go spending $40 at Staples, for cripesakes. This is pretty easy to do and you'll make me feel bad that I talked you into buying this thing. I'm pretty sure you can do it.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-04   9:51:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Chuck_Wagon (#31)

I choose the 'vestibule' option, park the cart, and then set out with my quad cane:

Yeah, that quad cane looks like it will be useful AFTER I get a prosthetic leg.
But right now, it just wouldn't provide enough support while I hop around on one leg. If I lose my balance, I'm doomed. That's why I use the walker. The walker works for short distances, but even then, I wouldn't trust it all the way from my car to the vestibule of the store.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-04   9:58:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Willie Green (#35)

The walker works...

Not for me.
I've tried them - and you really need two arms
to support yourself on them. My right arm doesn't
have the steadiness nor the strength for it
unfortunately.

So it's: "Quad Cane Left! Proceed!" for me.

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   10:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Chuck_Wagon, TooConservative (#0)

Just suppose that I wanted to create a machine that would boot from a USB flash drive - a relatively big flash drive - 32gb to 64gb - or whatever is required. And I wanted this thing to boot either Win7 or XP. Anybody here have any experience with such an experience?

I had a 10gig netbook that was obsolete and I use as my bathroom wifi radio now and it ran on Windows XP - but barely. So I bought an Ubuntu loaded thumbdrive and ran it off of that and that was fine for a while until it stopped working and then I got a thumbdrive running Chrome and it works fine most of the time for wireless Pandora or radio.

Pericles  posted on  2015-03-04   10:14:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Pericles (#37)

I used to run Ubuntu on a couple of old Celeron machines.
In fact I think they are still in the basement -
and the may possibly still work!
(Actually ONE of them may still work, the other one
died now that I think of it.)

Chuck_Wagon  posted on  2015-03-04   10:20:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Willie Green (#33) (Edited)

The Z-Box with 4 Gb RAM, a 2½" hard drive and 64-bit Linux Mint 17.1 "Rebecca" Xfce Edition is working great for me.

I'm impressed with these sweet tiny budget boxes. And my last new machine was a Mac Pro workstation, top of the line stuff, 2.6Ghz, lots of RAM. So I am used to being a power user.

It would be great if they could get the price of the i7 quad-core versions of these TinyPCs down under $300.

Zotec also have their Nano models. Small as a USB hub. Too cute.

I'm using an i7 Mac Mini, another tiny device. It has room for a second hard drive, two slots for RAM.

I put 16GB in it (Crucial 16GB kit, DDR3, $135 shipped from Amazon). My Mini never uses swap partition at all. Not even if I use VMWare and run Ubuntu Linux 14, Windows XP or Win7, and Apple's OSX 10.9.5 simultaneously on multiple virtual screens along with several browsers (Firefox, Chrome) with 50 or more browser tabs open at once. It's completely smooth, all the time. Virtually no hesitation at any time.

I like my Mini more than my Mac Pro workstation which I do still have. (It's a total power hog, scandalous really. It makes the meter spin!)

I'm trying to make the point that we can just virtualize these OSes (if we have adequate RAM and multiple cores) and run everything at once very smoothly if we have enough RAM and CPU cores. Years back, adding RAM beyond a certain point (2GB or 4GB) was a waste of time because the apps and OS didn't take advantage of it. That has changed on all platforms and they readily gobble up and use any amount of RAM well.

For serious use, you should have 8GB or 16GB. If running a single OS, 8GB will do well enough for everything but commercial Photoshop or 3ds Studio Max or other similar workstation class apps.

Here's one of those Zotec Nanos ($198.99 shipped):

  • AMD E2-1800 (1.7 GHz) AMD Radeon HD 7340 GPU AMD A68M Chipset

  • 7-in-1 Memory card reader (MMC/SD/SDHC/SDXC/MS/MS Pro/xD) 10/100/1000 Ethernet (RJ45) 4 USB 2.0 ports, 2 USB 3.0 ports

  • Adobe Flash Player 10.1 acceleration Microsoft DirectX 11 compatible OpenGL 3.2 compatible

  • HDMI (1080p w/8-channel audio) DisplayPort HDCP compliant Dual simultaneous displays

  • 1 2.5-inch SATA 6.0 Gb/s (9.5mm height) space 1 204-pin DDR3-1333 SO-DIMM (Up to 8GB) slot

  • Integrated 802.11n Wi-Fi & Bluetooth 3.0

  • OpenCL compatible

  • eSATA connector IR receiver

Isn't that just darling? What a sweet little box.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   10:54:45 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Pericles, Chuck_Wagon (#37)

I had a 10gig netbook that was obsolete and I use as my bathroom wifi radio now and it ran on Windows XP - but barely. So I bought an Ubuntu loaded thumbdrive and ran it off of that and that was fine for a while until it stopped working and then I got a thumbdrive running Chrome and it works fine most of the time for wireless Pandora or radio.

Well, sure but Chuck seems to want Windows and some apps, not just a Chromebook browser setup with a few media extensions.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   10:56:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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