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Title: Ukraine Announces a Growing List of Casualties From Debaltseve Retreat
Source:
nytimes.com
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/w ... impose-ukraine-cease-fire.html
Published: Feb 19, 2015
Author: DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and ANDREW E. KRAME
Post Date: 2015-02-19 23:12:18 by Pericles
Keywords: Ukraine
Views: 11749
Comments: 33
MOSCOW — The Ukrainian military on Thursday said that the casualties in Debaltseve were substantially worse than initially announced...snip.... In the city of Artemivsk, where Ukrainian soldiers gathered after their retreat from Debaltseve, the harrowing human toll from the recent days of fighting was on vivid display. Many soldiers were in a demoralized and drunken state. Shellshocked soldiers from the battle in Debaltseve wandered the streets through the day Wednesday, before beginning to drink heavily. By Wednesday evening, gunshots were ringing out on the central square. One man stood, swaying, on the sidewalk mumbling to himself. Soldiers who had escaped from Debaltseve after weeks of shelling were commandeering taxi cabs without payment. It was not clear that all of them had been given places to sleep, and one group stood silently, shivering on a street outside the Hotel Ukraine. And at Biblios, an upscale restaurant in Artemivsk, soldiers staggered about in the dining room, ordering brandy for which they had no money to pay, and then firing shots into the ceiling as other guests quietly fled the premises. ...snip... Highlighting its control over Debaltseve, Russia said on Thursday that it was sending a convoy of humanitarian aid to the town.
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#1. To: TooConservative, A Pole, Vicomte13 (#0)
The Kiev kids who bought the Bandera quasi Nazi fantasies BS paid dearly for it and were used by the West as cannon fodder to bring about its plans in the Ukraine against Russia. The west knew this route was about to happen which is why we saw the DC foreign policy establishment go ballistic and bellicose on American TV - same thing happened when Syria's Assad govt turned the tables on the so called Free Syrian Army - then you saw McCain call for bombing. The more the west. Obama got to pretend he won in Ukraine for a few weeks but the events on the ground show that Putin is in control of the situation and in the stronger position.
I'm wondering about the present composition of the Uke military. We know the regular Uke army at the beginning of the conflict generally refused to attack their fellow-citizens with lethal force. So they called out the neo-Nazi "volunteer battalions" from the Lviv oblast. And it was the neo-Nazi element that really perpetrated the massacres of civilians in east Ukraine. As they pressed eastward and most of the civilian population fled, there was a rotation of Russian officers who just happened to choose to spend a week or two of vacation time in eastern Ukraine. The results were dramatic. The regular Uke army units that hadn't massacred were spared but they wiped out every neo-Nazi they could find and took no prisoners. Now it seems the Russians are no longer vacationing and the rebels are more standalone. In the meantime, Kiev has implemented a draft and eligible men have fled the draft, something that Western media never reports. Apparently draft-dodging is rampant in Ukraine with some areas having more than half the men fled or in hiding. You know, Transnistria is lovely in the spring if you happen to live in Odessa. : ) I wonder how many of the neo-Nazis in the "volunteer battalions" have survived and just how many of the new recruits to the regular Uke army are willing to fire on fellow-citizens, via artillery or house-to-house fighting. Reporting was too inconsistent to get a lot of facts six months ago. Now it is even harder to get good reporting on Ukraine. Apparently, the facts on the ground no longer matter much to anyone.
I don't think the Uke military proper is involved in this fight excpet maybe as logistics? Artillery? I don't even hear the airforce being used by Kiev.
There's a lot of action but little reliable reporting. Apparently the Uke military is reeling after this recent defeat. NATO will try to prop them up with training missions, perhaps some more advanced weapons.
It is a little rich that the media no longer has to exaggerate about rampaging Cossacks because some actual Cossacks have gotten involved in the recent fighting. I think a lot of people forget that this part of Ukraine was a Cossack homeland for centuries. AP: Key Ukraine town under rebel control, separatists celebrate That is the edited title. Earlier, the DDG search engine indexed it as "Debaltseve under rebel control, Cossack fighters celebrate". LOL. To those who know a little history, this does undermine the West's narratives of a supposed large-scale Russian invasion. If the rebel troops are Cossacks, then they're locals, not Russians. I do think it is obvious that there is some Russian presence, probably providing technical support and key operations posts needed to run an effective Soviet-era military which is about the best either side in Ukraine can muster.
I decided to just post the AP story about the happy Cossacks. It has quite a bit of info about the battle for the town and rail head.
I saw that. The problem I have is the western media reports as if everyone is Ukrainian or that Russians live inside a Ukrainian homeland as a minority - like Hungarians living in the Ukraine. Their really is no true monolithic Ukrainian ethnic identity. The Ukraine just is the name of the geography between the empires of the Russians, Ottomans, Austro-Hungarians and Baltic- Poles. That is what Ukraine means = borderland in rough English translation. The Bandera's are one of these 19th century groups and mindests that try to link to some fabled past but try and take the ethnic populations living inside the borders and force them to become this new standardized ethnicity. Many Europeans in that part of the world are guilty of it, Greeks did it to the Vlachs, etc. That is what these modern Banderistas want to do to all the Slavs inside of Ukraine and force them into a template.
Actually, they want to kill or expel the Russian minority in the east. They also want to knock off Russia's regime, much as they attempted to do so in Belarus some years back, one of the failed Soros colour revolutions. People don't seem to realize how many of these phony "revolutions" have been staged or attempted over the decades since the Cold War ended. I saw a bit of FNC's coverage of the anniversary of the Maidan massacre. They tried to hype it but it was clear there were less than 200 total people present to commemorate Maidan only a year later. Then they tried to cover the return of the defeated troops returning from Debaltsevo as receiving a "hero's welcome" but there were maybe 20 people total. It was kinda laughable.
Based on the Freeper Banderistas they have made statements that the Russians forced many Ukes to speak Russian or become Russian so these populations need to be - for lack of a betetr term - re-educated back to being Ukes - or expelled because they are invaders.
There was a widespread Soviet effort to promote Russification of the provinces like the Baltics and Ukraine during the Stalin era. Then after Khruschev was premier, he had a de-Russification policy. So there has been a history of forcing people to speak Russian and then trying to force the Russians to speak the local dialect. This goes back to before WW II. The region also has a sad history of population transfers and the expulsion of entire ethnic groups. Like the Circassians of Sochi who were expelled en masse by the tsar. Of particular note is that it is large Cossack militias that have maintained order there against the Chechen/Dagestani/Inguish threat. Just as Cossacks are now taking the helm in eastern Ukraine. Just like Cossacks always kept order on Russia's frontiers in the tsarist era. This use of Cossacks as a Russian security measure is far from a new thing.
Korenizatsiya (Russian: коренизация) sometimes also called korenization, meaning "nativization" or "indigenization", literally "putting down roots", was the early Soviet nationalities policy promoted mostly in the 1920s but with a continuing legacy in later years. The primary policy consisted of promoting representatives of titular nations of Soviet republics [...] Not only was the local cadre of the titular nations to be promoted at all levels but the ethnic Russians who served in the local governments were encouraged (or required) to learn the local culture. In most cases korenizatsiya was preceded by the delimitation of nationality-based borders for administrative and political units within the Soviet Union. [...] In 1923 at the 12th Party Congress, Stalin identified two threats to the success of the party's "nationalities policy": Great Power Chauvinism (Russian chauvinism) and local nationalism.[5] However, he described the former as the greater danger: [The] Great-Russian chauvinist spirit, which is becoming stronger and stronger owing to the N.E.P., . . . [finds] expression in an arrogantly disdainful and heartlessly bureaucratic attitude on the part of Russian Soviet officials towards the needs and requirements of the national republics. The multi-national Soviet state can become really durable, and the co-operation of the peoples within it really fraternal, only if these survivals are vigorously and irrevocably eradicated from the practice of our state institutions. Hence, the first immediate task of our Party is vigorously to combat the survivals of Great-Russian chauvinism. [...] And in the very large Ukrainian Republic, the program of Ukrainianization led to a profound shift of the language of instruction in schools to Ukrainian [...]
I kinda doubt it was such a profound shift. It's a stretch to consider Ukrainian as much more than a Russian dialect.
Ukrainian was developed into literary language in Lvov area under Austrian rule in XIX century (the city Lvov was mainly Polish at that time). This area was joined to Ukraine by Stalin after WWII, until that time it was a part of Poland since XIV century (ruled by Austria in XIX century). The large area around Kiev uses a transitory dialect called Surzhyk but as it is considered low class, most people declare Russian or Ukrainian (depending who is asking) as their first language. South and East are Russian speaking (joined to Ukraine by Lenin in 1920s)
To my non Slav ears Ukrainian and Russian sounds almost identical except for last names. How different are they? Is it the difference between how English is spoken in Jamaica vs England (where there are also wide differences), Or English from Alabama vs Manchester English? Or is it the difference between Spanish and Portuguese?
My wife is half Russian and half Ukrainian, and she said the posts on this board are nonsense.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
They can understand each other. Vocabulary is somehow different.
Closer than that but not as close as British English vs. American English.
If she doesn't know about the attempted coup against Belarus (which resulted in a closing of that society to the West), then she isn't very well informed. Maybe she doesn't keep track of Soros and his various plots.
If she doesn't know about the attempted coup against Belarus (which resulted in a closing of that society to the West), then she isn't very well informed. Maybe she doesn't keep track of Soros and his various plots. It is in our imagination that we see Western Ukes in neonazi gear being the storm troopers for the western created color revolution - no different that the west using jihadists at first to be the storm troopers on the Arab spring.
That can be tricky. In English "mad" means crazy but in American English it mostly means "angry". For example "The Americans are mad" can mean in Anglo English that the Americans are insane and in American English it means the Americans are angry. Most Americans and Brits get the difference but if one side did not know the difference it may sound odd when a sentence is spoken - odder if accents change the way the same words are pronounced to the point it sounds like a different language. So you can see how nationalists can use that make the local dialect a language separate from the language of the bigger 'oppressive' culture next door.
Of course, there are still many minorities in Ukraine speaking various dialects. South of Donetsk, they still have Greeks speaking their own language. Around 100,000 of those as I recall.
Seems Greeks settled where the best parts worth fighting over are now. Crimea for example. I keep seeing "Grek" as a combat name in Ukraine dispatches.
Her heart and family is with Russia, but we expected your arrogant response. And we are very aware of the situation in Belarus. We have close friends from there.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
They originally settled there. Catherine the Great moved them northeast to just south of Donetsk and they stayed there since for the most part.
Stalin also moved Greeks to Central Asia as well as Jews and Germans and others.
True. I am not fluent in Russian or Ukrainian, but my impression is different. Literary Ukrainian was being developed at the end of XIX century by intellectuals like poet Shevchenko who knew Russian well. They did not crate such linguistic traps like "mad/crazy/angry". Such traps develop inadvertently as a result of isolation and distance. Such traps would inhibit the adoption of the new form of the language. So they rather promoted Polish words (which were already common in local dialects), different conjugation of the verbs (already present locally). The project was to make written language clearly distinct but not unintelligible. Similar efforts are being made by Croatians who share language with the Serbs but want to deny it. Or Webster did so when he tried to differentiate American spelling. Of course differences English/American or Serb/Croat differences are minute. Russian/Ukrainian are very significant.
There has only been any real divergence in the last 150 years. And other minority dialects and usages are still present. There is no general linguistic purity you would find in other established languages. Like Russian or Polish or French or German. I'm not sure how significant the differences are. Some dialects in different regions of Mexico are no more compatible than Ukrainian and Russian. Certainly this is true of the Spanish spoken as you move south through Central America. Yet we do call their language Spanish. Because it is. Local vernacular and the literary pursuits of a small minority class only count for so much.
Greeks are the oldest ethnic group in the Ukraine. They came there in the eight century before Christ and lived mostly along the coasts in large affluent cities. The plains to the north were sparsely populated and subject to frequent invasions of migrating tribes from Eurasian steppes. From 800 BC on: It was in Greek Crimea where the first Christian ruler of Russia was baptized by the Greeks in the tenth century:
So he could marry a princess of Byzantium to extend his rule into the old Greek empire. And to add to his harem of hundreds of wives.
He dismissed his wives
And George Washington chopped down a cherry tree.
And George Washington chopped down a cherry tree. So do you believe that St Vladimir continued to perform pagan rites and to pray to pagan gods? Or that he did not believe in anything beside XX century style atheism and XIX century materialism? No, he was a man of his time and gods or God were as real for him as quarks are elemental particles to you. Although you cannot see them either. Or if you are more willing to accept a mercenary motivation, perhaps he wanted to dismiss his multiple wives? You know, at that times princes married for political reasons and Christian baptism was a perfect excuse. Is it more plausible for you?
Nope.
#2. To: Pericles (#1)
The Kiev kids who bought the Bandera quasi Nazi fantasies BS paid dearly for it and were used by the West as cannon fodder to bring about its plans in the Ukraine against Russia.
#3. To: TooConservative (#2)
I'm wondering about the present composition of the Uke military.
#4. To: Pericles (#3)
I don't think the Uke military proper is involved in this fight excpet maybe as logistics? Artillery? I don't even hear the airforce being used by Kiev.
#5. To: Pericles (#3)
#6. To: Pericles (#3)
#7. To: TooConservative (#6)
I decided to just post the AP story about the happy Cossacks. It has quite a bit of info about the battle for the town and rail head.
#8. To: Pericles (#7)
(Edited)
That is what these modern Banderistas want to do to all the Slavs inside of Ukraine and force them into a template.
#9. To: TooConservative (#8)
Actually, they want to kill or expel the Russian minority in the east. They also want to knock off Russia's regime, much as they attempted to do so in Belarus some years back, one of the failed Soros colour revolutions.
#10. To: Pericles (#9)
Based on the Freeper Banderistas they have made statements that the Russians forced many Ukes to speak Russian or become Russian so these populations need to be - for lack of a better term - re-educated back to being Ukes - or expelled because they are invaders.
#11. To: TooConservative (#10)
There was a widespread Soviet effort to promote Russification of the provinces like the Baltics and Ukraine during the Stalin era. Then after Khruschev was premier, he had a de-Russification policy. So there has been a history of forcing people to speak Russian and then trying to force the Russians to speak the local dialect. This goes back to before WW II.
#12. To: A Pole (#11)
And in the very large Ukrainian Republic, the program of Ukrainianization led to a profound shift of the language of instruction in schools to Ukrainian
#13. To: TooConservative (#12)
(Edited)
It's a stretch to consider Ukrainian as much more than a Russian dialect.
#14. To: A Pole, TooConservative (#13)
#15. To: TooConservative (#8)
Actually, they want to kill or expel the Russian minority in the east. They also want to knock off Russia's regime, much as they attempted to do so in Belarus some years back, one of the failed Soros colour revolutions.
#16. To: Pericles (#14)
#17. To: Pericles (#14)
Or is it the difference between Spanish and Portuguese?
#18. To: GarySpFC (#15)
My wife is half Russian and half Ukrainian, and she said the posts on this board are nonsense.
#19. To: TooConservative, GarySpFC (#18)
My wife is half Russian and half Ukrainian, and she said the posts on this board are nonsense.
#20. To: A Pole, TooConservative (#16)
They can understand each other. Vocabulary is somehow different.
#21. To: Pericles (#20)
#22. To: TooConservative (#21)
(Edited)
#23. To: Pericles (#19)
It is in our imagination that we see Western Ukes in neonazi gear being the storm troopers for the western created color revolution - no different that the west using jihadists at first to be the storm troopers on the Arab spring.
#24. To: Pericles (#22)
Seems Greeks settled where the best parts worth fighting over are now. Crimea for example.
#25. To: TooConservative (#24)
(Edited)
They originally settled there. Catherine the Great moved them northeast to just south of Donetsk and they stayed there since for the most part.
#26. To: Pericles, TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#20)
That can be tricky. In English "mad" means crazy but in American English it mostly means "angry".
#27. To: A Pole (#26)
(Edited)
#28. To: Pericles (#22)
Seems Greeks settled where the best parts worth fighting over are now.
#29. To: A Pole (#28)
It was in Greek Crimea where the first Christian ruler of Russia was baptized by the Greeks in the tenth century:
#30. To: TooConservative (#29)
#31. To: A Pole (#30)
He dismissed his wives
#32. To: TooConservative (#31)
He dismissed his wives
#33. To: A Pole (#32)
Is it more plausible for you?
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