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Title: From Atheism to Christianity: a Personal Journey
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp ... hristianity-a-personal-journey
Published: Feb 16, 2015
Author: Philip Vander Elst
Post Date: 2015-02-16 15:25:07 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 15705
Comments: 56

Do you find it difficult to believe in God or accept the claims of Christianity? I did, when I was an atheist, but I changed my mind, and my reasons for doing so may be of interest to you in your own personal journey and attempts to make sense of life.

I am a freelance writer and lecturer. Since graduating from Oxford in 1973, with a degree in politics and philosophy, I have spent most of my professional life in politics and journalism, loving, as I do, the world of books, ideas and debate. Two questions in particular have always interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

Growing up in a non-Christian family with intellectually gifted but unbelieving parents, I used to think that belief in God and the supernatural had been discredited by the advance of science, and was incompatible with liberty. Religious faith seemed to me to involve the blind worship of a cosmic dictator, and the abandonment of reason in favour of ‘revelation’. Why, in any case, should I take religion seriously, I thought, when the existence of evil and suffering clearly discredited the Christian claim that our world owed its existence to a benevolent Creator?

My scepticism and hostility towards Christianity, which developed in my teens under the influence of thinkers like Ayn Rand and Bertrand Russell, grew even stronger while I was at Oxford. Then, at the age of 24, I met my future wife, who turned out to be a Christian. Shocked by the discovery that this highly intelligent and beautiful woman was ‘one of them’, I determined to find out whether there was any good evidence for the existence of God and the truthfulness of Christianity, making it quite clear from the outset, however, that I was not prepared to become a believer just to cement our relationship!

I started to read C.S. Lewis, whose Chronicles of Narnia I had enjoyed as a child. I did so for three reasons. First because he had himself been an atheist, and might therefore be able to answer my many questions and objections. Secondly, because I respected his intellect. Here was a man who had graduated from Oxford with Triple First Class Honours in Classics, Philosophy and English, and had then become one of the greatest British academics of his generation. If he could have made the journey from atheism to Christianity, perhaps I was mistaken in thinking that you had to bury your brain in order to believe in God. Furthermore, and this was my third reason for studying his writings, you couldn’t accuse C.S. Lewis of being glib or shallow about suffering. Having lost his mother at the age of 10, been unhappy at school, and then gone on to experience the horrors of trench warfare during the First World War, he was obviously only too aware of the problem of evil. His discussion of these issues would surely, I thought, be illuminating.

This proved indeed to be the case. As I read Lewis’s three most important books, Mere Christianity, Miracles and The Problem of Pain, I found myself not only following in the footsteps of a person who had wrestled with all the issues that were troubling me; I was also discovering intelligent and convincing answers to all my doubts.

C.S. Lewis’ Illuminating Insights about the Problem of Evil

Since my own father had died when I was only 17, I found what Lewis had to say about the problem of evil particularly pertinent. As he rightly points out, we cannot complain about the existence of evil and suffering, and use that as an argument against the existence and goodness of God, unless we first believe that the standard of right and wrong by which we judge and condemn our world is an objective one. Our sense of justice and fairness has to be a true insight into reality, before we can we be justified in getting angry and indignant about all the pain and injustice we see around us. But if this is the case, what explains the existence within us of this inner moral code or compass? According to atheism, human beings and all their thinking processes are simply the accidental by-products of the mindless movement of atoms within an undesigned, random, and purposeless universe. How then can we attach any ultimate meaning or truth to our thoughts and feelings, including our sense of justice? They have, on this view, no more validity or significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.

But if, on the other hand, we refuse to accept this conclusion, insisting, for example, that it is always and objectively true that you should love your neighbour and you shouldn’t torture children, we are led away from atheism. The presence within us of an objective moral law ‘written on our hearts’ points instead to the existence of an eternal Goodness and Intelligence which created us and our universe, enables us to think, and is the eternal source of our best and deepest values. In other words, Lewis argues, atheism cuts its own throat philosophically, because it discredits all human reasoning, including the arguments for atheism. “If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.” (Mere Christianity). Only by acknowledging that there is a God, he concludes, can we hope to make sense of human existence, the world we inhabit, and, paradoxically, the problem of evil.

But if God is goodness personified and therefore, as our Creator, the divine source of all that is good, true and beautiful, why is there so much evil and suffering? What has gone wrong? The Christian answer to that question, Lewis argues, is that our world has been damaged by rebellion against God. An originally good creation has been spoiled.

If you find this hard to believe, consider the evidence. Look at all the many examples there are of benevolent and intricate design in Nature: the nest-building instincts of birds, the incredibly complex structure of the human brain, the navigational systems of bats and whales, the biological software of DNA in every cell of our bodies, sexual reproduction, etc. All this exists side by side with harmful viruses, disease and death. Can its obvious implications be ignored? Consider, too, the significance of the fact that human beings possess an inner moral code they cannot get rid of yet seem unable to obey. Does all this not suggest some process of deterioration from hopeful beginnings? Is it not also significant that many ancient peoples and cultures, including the Chinese, have some tradition of a lost Paradise in the dim and distant past?

A Convincing Explanation of the Origin of Evil

Speaking for myself, I find this evidence convincing, but what has really persuaded me of the truthfulness of the Christian explanation of the origin of evil and suffering, is its inherent philosophical credibility. As C.S. Lewis points out, true love is a voluntary union of free individuals giving themselves to each other for their mutual delight and for the mutual enjoyment of life and all its blessings. Consequently, when God created the first human beings, He gave them the gift of free will. He did so in order that they and all their descendants might share His life, His love, His joy and His beauty, with Him and with each other. As part of this gift of free will, God also gave human beings creativity and intelligence in order that they might be good stewards of the world in which he had placed them, sharing its joys and adding to its wonders and beauty. But the problem with free will is that it can be corrupted and misused. Our inner freedom to relate to God and other people in harmony and love, can be turned on its head. We can choose, instead, to reject our Creator and live only for ourselves. And that, sadly, is what has happened to the human race. It is what lies behind the famous biblical story of the ‘Fall of Man’ in the Garden of Eden: our ancestors disobeyed God, with deadly consequences for themselves and posterity.

For the reasons I have already mentioned, I have no doubt that the ‘Fall of Man’ was a real historical event, but what gives the whole story its ‘ring of truth’ is its totally convincing picture of the disastrous consequences of turning away from God. A creature rebelling against its Creator, Lewis argues, is like a plant refusing to grow towards the sunlight. It results in a broken relationship which separates that creature from the eternal source of all life, love, truth and well-being, including its own. It was therefore inevitable that when the human race separated itself from God through that original act of disobedience long ago, hatred, disease and death came into the world. Some creationist scientists and theologians believe that the ‘Fall of Man’ damaged the whole of God’s originally perfect creation (as described in the book of Genesis), introducing death and disorder into the animal kingdom and the natural world. Others argue that even before the ‘Fall of Man’ the natural environment had already been damaged by rebellion against God in the angelic realm. But whatever you may think about all this, one thing seems crystal clear and made perfect sense to me: separation from our Creator is inevitably self-destructive.

It is inevitably self-destructive not only because it results in death, but also because it is destructive of freedom. Apart from God, we lack the inner strength to resist the downward pull of our fallen natures. Without His help, we cannot overcome all the temptations we face to give in to our lowest impulses and pursue our own interests at the expense of others. And if, in addition, this diminution of our inner freedom is accompanied, as in so many lives, by positive disbelief in God, a new danger arises. We lose our sense of accountability and belief in moral absolutes because we no longer believe that there is a Divine Judge to whom we are ultimately responsible. That is one of the reasons why militantly atheistic socialist regimes have produced the bloodiest tyrannies in history, slaughtering 100 million people in internal repression during the 20th century. It also helps to explain the growth of crime, delinquency and sexual immorality in post- Christian secularised Western societies.

If the human race has cut itself off from God through sin, what has been God’s response? Has he abandoned us, and all His creation, to corruption and death? On the contrary. The whole of the rest of the Bible after the third chapter of Genesis describes God’s rescue plan. And at the heart of that rescue plan is the greatest and most extraordinary event in history: the incredible but true story of God coming down into our world to live and walk among us as a human being – as a first century Jewish carpenter from Nazareth, called Jesus.

Before I started reading C.S. Lewis, I dismissed this whole idea as an absurd fable. Even if Jesus had really existed, how could one believe that he had performed all those miracles recorded of Him in the New Testament? Hadn’t the advance of science revealed that our universe is a beautifully ordered cosmos governed by physical laws which cannot be broken, but which can be described in the precise language of mathematics? Didn’t the laws of physics and chemistry rule out the possibility of a man walking on water or rising from the dead, as Jesus was said to have done? And how could one believe that Jesus had once turned several jars of water into wine at a wedding feast, or fed five thousand people with only five loaves of bread and two fish? You could only believe such stories, I thought, if you were scientifically illiterate, as everyone clearly was in ancient times. Furthermore, I asked myself, how on earth could Jesus’ death on a Roman cross ‘save’ us from our sins and reconcile us to God? No-one had ever explained this mystery to me!

Re-examining My Objections to the Supernatural and Miracles

Once again, however, Lewis’s writings forced me to re-examine my objections to Christianity and the historical claims about Jesus on which it is based. As he points out in his brilliant book, Miracles, you cannot rule out the supernatural on scientific grounds without first begging the question of God’s existence. Atheism denies the supernatural by definition, but if atheism is false and God exists, who is to say that God is not able to intervene in His creation? If a human author can change the ending of one of her plays or novels at the stroke of a keyboard, then surely the Creator in whose image we are made can alter the natural environment, reverse the progression of a disease, or conquer death in ways we consider ‘miraculous’.

In any case, argues Lewis, the whole idea that it is somehow unscientific to believe in God and therefore in the possibility of miracles, is both historically and philosophically mistaken. Modern science owes its very origin to monotheistic religion. To quote Lewis: “Men became scientific because they expected law in nature and they expected law in nature because they believed in a lawgiver.” (Miracles). That is why most of the great founding fathers of modern science believed in God and were Christians who took the Bible seriously. To mention just a few of them and the scientific disciplines they helped to establish, they include: Galileo and Kepler (astronomy), Pascal (hydrostatics), Boyle (chemistry), Newton (calculus), Linnaeus (systematic biology), Faraday (electromagnetics), Cuvier (comparative anatomy), Kelvin (thermodynamics), Lister (antiseptic surgery), and Mendel (genetics). All these men believed in an ordered universe and in the possibility of discovering how it functioned because they were convinced that the evidence of intelligent design in Nature indicated the existence of an Intelligent Creator. As Kepler put it, writing in the 17th century: “The chief aim of all investigations of the external world should be to discover the rational order which has been imposed on it by God, and which he revealed to us in the language of mathematics.”

Lewis not only persuaded me that there is no reason to disbelieve in miracles and the supernatural on scientific grounds; he also pointed out the absurdity of attributing all belief in miracles to ignorance of the natural laws revealed by science. Jesus’ contemporaries in first century Palestine may have lacked the knowledge of modern physicists, but they were perfectly well aware that His virgin birth or His instantaneous healing of lepers were events which went against the normal course of nature, otherwise they would never have regarded them as miracles. Joseph, as we are told in Matthew’s Gospel, was resolved to break off his engagement to Mary precisely because he knew as well as you and I do that women don’t usually become pregnant without first having had sex with a man! Similarly, as we are told in John’s Gospel, ‘Doubting Thomas’ refused at first to believe the report of the other disciples that Jesus had risen from the grave, since he knew as well as any modern atheist that the victims of a Roman crucifixion did not normally return from the dead. It is therefore irrational to dismiss all reports of miracles as the unreliable testimony of credulous witnesses. You must examine the evidence for them with an open mind.

If, responding to this challenge, we look with an open mind at the accounts in the New Testament of the miracles of Jesus, Lewis argues, we are brought face to face with an interesting and significant fact. Instead of finding there the stuff of fairy tales – talking animals or frogs turning into princes – we are confronted with something much more rational and believable. What we see in most of Jesus’ miracles is what God does in the natural world, as its Creator, but localised and speeded up. Thus every year, for example, tiny seedlings of grain created by God grow into vast harvest fields of wheat and thousands of loaves of bread. The same process of multiplication took place in Jesus’ feeding of the five thousand, but localised and speeded up. Similarly, God is always turning water into wine by the action of sunlight and rain on the fruit of the vine, and by the involvement of human beings in all the stages of winemaking. At the wedding feast in Cana (recorded in John’s Gospel), Jesus, as God the Creator Incarnate, also turns water into wine, but here again the conversion process is localised and speeded up. Exactly the same parallels apply to Jesus’ miracles of healing. Human beings created by God are constantly recovering from illnesses and diseases through the medical stimulation of their bodies’ God-given immune systems. So when Jesus healed lepers with a touch of His hand or a word of command, we again see God the Healer at work, but localised and speeded up, as man to man in ancient Palestine. In other words, says Lewis, the purpose of Jesus’ miracles was not just to show God’s love for humanity but to reveal to the people around Him (and to us) the presence among them of their Creator and Saviour.

In addition to convincing me of the inherent reasonableness of the New Testament record of Jesus’ miracles, Lewis’s writings also helped me to understand why the Christian concept of God as a union of three persons within one Godhead (the ‘Trinity’) made sense, and why ‘God the Son’, the second person of that ‘Trinity’, had to come down into our world as Jesus, to ‘die for our sins’ and conquer death on our behalf.

As Lewis explains in his most readable book, Mere Christianity, God is Love personified since, as our Creator, He is the divine source and origin of all human (and animal) love. But since love involves relationships between people, we should not be altogether surprised to discover that God in His own Being is a loving union of three distinct persons – described in the New Testament as ‘Father’, ‘Son’, and ‘Holy Spirit’. It is of course true that this revelation may at first appear startling and strange, but it does not seem unreasonable once you think about it. The same thing applies to the apparently perplexing and contradictory notion of unity in diversity. How can God be a union of ‘three-in-one’? Well, says Lewis, what appears to be an impossibility in our dimension of being is not necessarily an impossibility in God’s dimension of Being. To use his very helpful analogy, you can’t picture a union of six separate squares in a two dimensional world, but you can picture a cube in a three dimensional world. So just as a cube is one body made up of six separate squares, so God is one Being made up of three separate persons. Again, this revelation may come as a shock, but it does not seem unreasonable. And this, argues Lewis, is another reason why Christianity has that strange ‘ring of truth’. It gives us information about God which no-one would ever have thought of making up, yet still manages to make some kind of sense. It involves a mystery about God which goes beyond our human understanding but not against it, which is surely what we ought to expect if there is a God.

I must emphasise, at this point, that the Christian concept of the Trinitarian nature of God is not something that Christian theologians simply invented many decades after Jesus’ death and resurrection. It emerged quickly and naturally as Jesus’ first disciples and followers came to understand the logical implications of His life and teachings, and reflected on what He Himself had said about His relationship and union with His ‘Father’. And since love was and is at the heart of that relationship, and explains why God created the universe and gave us the gift of life, it also tells us why His rescue plan for the human race necessitated His arrival in our world as a human being, and His cruel death under Pontius Pilate.

We are Alienated From Our Creator

As Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity, the difficulty we face as fallen human beings, whether we realise it or not, is that we are alienated from our Creator because the moral imperfection we have inherited from our rebellious ancestors – our wrong thoughts and motives, as well as our bad behaviour – inevitably separates us from God. This may seem unjust, extreme, and hard to believe, since we are accustomed to being a mixture of good and bad (‘nobody’s perfect!’ we say), and cannot, in our fallen state, altogether help being imperfect. But the problem is that our Creator God is not only Love, but Goodness and Justice personified, and therefore infinitely ‘holy’ – to use the language of the Bible. This means that He cannot overlook our moral failings and be united to us in love, since His perfect character is repelled by our sinfulness. His justice demands that the human race should bear the full destructive consequences of turning away from Him and flouting His will. We personally may not have rebelled against God at the dawn of history, but like all human beings since that time, we have been morally and spiritually damaged by the severance of that spiritual umbilical cord between God and Man which used to exist in the Garden of Eden. God’s love and goodness and joy can no longer flow unimpeded through us, because our human nature has been corrupted and we have become broken vessels that cannot retain the water of divine life. That is to look at our situation from God’s point of view. If we examine it from our own human perspective, the problem doesn’t get any easier. In order to be reconciled to God, the debt owed to Him by our wrong-doing must be paid, but we are morally and spiritually bankrupt. Reconciliation with God also requires perfect repentance, but it takes a good person to repent since repentance involves not only eating humble pie and saying sorry to God, but also surrendering our lives to Him. If we want to reconnect with our Creator, we must abandon our self-centredness, but the problem is that the worse we are, and the prouder we are, the harder it is for us to do this.

Given this dilemma, what did God have to do to resolve it? How could He reconcile His justice with His mercy? How could He save the human beings He had created in love from the consequences they had brought upon themselves by the misuse of their free will? How, in other words, could God save us from death and separation from Him in eternity? And let’s be clear what this involves, however upsetting it may be. To be separated from God in eternity, means to be consciously and forever separated from the source of all life, all love, all joy, all truth, and all beauty. That is an indescribably terrible fate, about which Jesus spoke with real horror in the Gospels, but it is what we all risk if we refuse to accept God’s rescue plan for ourselves. So what, then, is God’s rescue plan? How can we be reconnected with our Creator?

According to Lewis, God could only save us by becoming a human being and dying on our behalf, because only in this way could He enable us to go through that process of dying to self without which true repentance and reconnection with Him is impossible. Just as we are enabled to think because God created our minds and nurtures our intelligence, so, argues Lewis, we can now repent of our sins and give ourselves to God, because the capacity to die to self is now part of God’s divine nature in Jesus, and can therefore be communicated to us through our union with Him. Our ability, if we choose, to be reunited with God, was also won for us by Jesus because, as Man, and therefore our representative, His death on the cross paid the debt owed to God’s justice by human sin. Like a judge who imposes a fine on his guilty son and then takes off his judge’s robe and pays that fine himself, so Jesus, God the Son Incarnate, suffered the penalty of sin in our place. But since He was and is divine as well as human, He overcame death and rose from the grave on our behalf, having torn down the barrier separating fallen human beings from their Creator. That is the meaning of the Atonement and the Resurrection.

Evidence for the Truthfulness of the New Testament

Persuaded by Lewis of the reasonableness of the Christian message, I then examined the evidence for the historical truthfulness of the Gospel records in the New Testament. And once again closer scrutiny of the facts forced me to abandon my old prejudices against Christianity. The first thing I noticed was the internal evidence for the truthfulness of the Gospel accounts. Far from being self-serving propaganda, the Gospels faithfully record the weaknesses and failings of Jesus’ disciples, including their frequent inability to understand what He is talking about. Peter, to cite the most famous example, refuses to believe Jesus when He warns him of His impending arrest and execution, and is firmly rebuked for it. Later, at the Last Supper, he swears he will never abandon Jesus even if all the other disciples do, but then goes on to do precisely that, denying all connection with Him in the courtyard of the High Priest’s house after Jesus’ arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. The other disciples are revealed in a similarly poor light. On one occasion they are shown quarrelling about who amongst them will occupy the highest positions in Jesus’ Messianic Kingdom. At other times they, like Peter, are shown to be either unwilling or unable to accept Jesus’ teaching that He, the Messiah, must suffer and die “as a ransom for many”. Not surprisingly, they too abandon Jesus at the moment of supreme crisis in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Even more significantly, all the disciples are taken by surprise by the Resurrection, despite having been told in advance by Jesus, before His arrest, that He would come back from the dead. Indeed, this very fact, mirrored in their slowness to accept the testimony of their women and the evidence of their own eyes, offers powerful support both for the truthfulness and reliability of the Gospels as a whole, and for the reality of the Resurrection. And this brings me, finally, to the two most compelling and convincing reasons for believing in the truth of the Christian message and the story on which it is based: the undeniable fact of the Empty Tomb, and the subsequent careers and martyrdoms of Jesus’ closest followers.

As Frank Morison (originally a sceptic) argued long ago in his illuminating book, Who Moved The Stone? none of Jesus’ enemies and opponents of the newborn Christian Church could deny the disappearance of Jesus’ body from the tomb in which He had been buried by Joseph of Arimathea. Despite having every religious and political incentive to do so, neither the Jewish religious authorities who condemned Him, nor the Romans who crucified Him, were able to produce Jesus’ body, and by doing so, give the lie to the preaching of His resurrection by the disciples. If they had done so, Christianity would have been snuffed out instantly. But they didn’t because they couldn’t.

Secondly, only the fact of the Resurrection and the disciples’ encounter with the Risen Jesus can adequately explain the change that took place in them, and their subsequent careers. Having been a frightened, broken- hearted, and demoralised group of men, they emerged from hiding and became a band of joyful and heroic missionaries, boldly and fearlessly proclaiming the Christian gospel, in the teeth of persecution and suffering. What is more, all of them except John eventually suffered painful martyrdom for doing so. Three of them, including Peter, were crucified; two were stoned to death; another two were beheaded; Thomas was killed with arrows in India; Philip was hanged on a pillar in Phrygia; another disciple was beaten to death, and Bartholomew (Nathaniel) was skinned alive in Armenia. Is it likely, if the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body (as their enemies alleged), that they would have endured all this for something they knew to be a lie? Is it, in any case, psychologically credible to believe that these men, emotionally shattered by Jesus’ arrest and crucifixion, would have had the will, motivation, strength, or courage to attempt to snatch away His dead body from under the noses of the soldiers guarding His tomb?

My former scepticism about the Resurrection was further challenged by the undeniable and highly significant fact that St. Paul, the great ‘Apostle to the Gentiles’, had originally been the fiercest opponent and persecutor of the Early Church. Here was a man who had been passionately convinced that the Christian claims about Jesus were dangerous blasphemy, and that those who believed them deserved imprisonment, beatings and death. Then, suddenly, this same man changed a hundred and eighty degrees and became the greatest and most widely travelled evangelist of the fledgling Christian Church, a transformation, moreover, which began during an anti-Christian heresy- hunting missionary journey! What else, other than his encounter with the Risen Jesus on the road to Damascus, could possibly explain Paul’s dramatic conversion? This conclusion is further reinforced by the telling references in one of Paul’s pastoral letters to the many different witnesses to whom Jesus appeared after His resurrection, most of whom, Paul declared, were still alive at the time he was writing (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-10). Would he have dared to say all this, implicitly challenging sceptics to interrogate these living witnesses, if Jesus had not risen from the dead? And would he, like the other apostles, have endured beatings, imprisonment, stoning by hostile crowds and eventual beheading, for a message he knew to be false?

The more I thought about all these points, the more convinced I became that the internal evidence for the reliability of the Gospels and the New Testament as a whole was overwhelming. Apart from any other consideration, the picture of Jesus they presented was so vivid and compelling. In its pages you see Him challenging the powerful, comforting the poor, exposing hypocrites, and healing the sick and the broken-hearted. He treats women as equals and shows tenderness to children. Even more strikingly, when Jesus speaks of His divine status (“He who has seen Me, has seen the Father”), He doesn’t convey any impression of madness or megalomania. Instead, His words seem to carry authority, and His enemies are never able to out-argue or outwit Him. In fact, they do not even deny the reality of His miracles, merely attributing them to sorcery! If God ever did come down into our world and live and walk among us as a human being, I thought, then surely Jesus was that Man.

Finally, the last nail was hammered into the coffin of my former atheism by the realisation that there was very good external evidence for the authenticity and truthfulness of the Gospels. There are first of all significant corroborating references to Jesus’ existence and execution in the writings of Roman historians like Tacitus and Suetonius, as well as in those of the first century historian, Thallus. There is similarly corroborating evidence about some of the details of Jesus’ life and death in other non-Christian sources like the Jewish Talmud. To quote one of these, the first century Jewish historian, Josephus, writing in about AD 93: “At this time [the time of Pilate] there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” (Antiquities of the Jews)

In addition to all this, the manuscript evidence for the authenticity and reliability of the Gospel texts is earlier and more plentiful than that for any other document of ancient times. In particular, the historical reliability of Luke’s Gospel and its sequel, the Acts of the Apostles, which is full of explicit political, legal, medical, cultural and topographical details, is confirmed by a lot of archaeological evidence as well as by plentiful documentary evidence from non-Christian sources. According, for instance, to classical scholar and historian, Colin Hemer, in his study, The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History, 84 separate facts in the last sixteen chapters of the Acts of the Apostles have been confirmed by archaeological and historical research.

So, confronted by all these facts and arguments – philosophical, scientific, and historical – I surrendered my sword of unbelief to God, and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my life during the hot, dry summer of 1976. In the years that have followed, I have never regretted that decision, despite many ups and downs and trials of my faith. Through prayer, worship, and the company of other Christians, I feel I have begun to know Jesus personally and to understand something of the breadth and height and depth of His love for me and for all His creation. If, therefore, my journey from atheism to faith has helped in any way to persuade you of the truth of Christianity, I can only hope and pray that you too will experience the joy of reconnecting with your Creator by asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your own life. He longs for you and is only waiting for you to make the first move.

On the other hand, if you are still unconvinced by my testimony but are willing to explore these issues further, I invite you to read I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek, (Crossway, USA, 2004). It is a very readable yet scholarly book which sets out, in massive and very interesting detail, the philosophical and scientific evidence for the existence of God, as well as the historical and archaeological evidence for the reliability and truthfulness of the New Testament. Get hold of it and see whether it can resolve your doubts or answer your objections and questions.

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#1. To: A K A Stone, Y'ALL (#0)

From Christianity to Agnosticism, A Personal Journey

Author: tpaine

I am a retired building contractor, and have been a doubting thomas since my early teens. Since graduating from school in 1954 and joining the army in 1955, and getting out in 1958 with a degree as an airborne grunt, I have spent most of my professional life pounding nails, but loving, as I do, the world of books, ideas and debate.

Two questions in particular have always mildly interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

Growing up in a family with intellectually gifted but unbelieving father, and a very religious Catholic mother, by the time I was 12 years old, or so, I began to doubt what my mother, and what my confirmation priest (at 14 or so) were trying to tell me.

By the time I entered the army, I too "began to think that belief in God and the supernatural had been discredited by the advance of science, and was incompatible with liberty."

"Religious faith seemed to me to involve the blind worship of a cosmic dictator, and the abandonment of reason in favour of ‘revelation’. Why, in any case, should I take religion seriously, I thought, when the existence of evil and suffering clearly discredited the Christian claim that our world owed its existence to a benevolent Creator?"

" My scepticism and hostility towards Christianity, which developed in my teens under the influence of thinkers like Ayn Rand," --- John W Campbell, Robert Heinlein and Arthur Clarke grew even stronger while I was in the Army..

Nothing since then has changed my mind. I still doubt the existence of a physical god, and a heaven or hell. I simply have no clue who or what created the universe. -- I'm agnostic..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-16   18:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: tpaine, A K A Stone, Y'ALL (#1)

From Christianity to Agnosticism, A Personal Journey

Author: tpaine

I am a retired building contractor, and have been a doubting thomas since my early teens. Since graduating from school in 1954 and joining the army in 1955, and getting out in 1958 with a degree as an airborne grunt, I have spent most of my professional life pounding nails, but loving, as I do, the world of books, ideas and debate.

Two questions in particular have always mildly interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

Growing up in a family with intellectually gifted but unbelieving...

From Atheism to Christianity: a Personal Journey

Author: Philip Vander Elst

I am a freelance writer and lecturer. Since graduating from Oxford in 1973, with a degree in politics and philosophy, I have spent most of my professional life in politics and journalism, loving, as I do, the world of books, ideas and debate.

Two questions in particular have always interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

Growing up in a non-Christian family with intellectually gifted but unbelieving …

Source: http://www.bethinking.org/is- christianity-true/from-atheism-to-christianity-a-personal-journey

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-16   19:43:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: tpaine (#1)

Egad... we are twins in this subject.

Raised a catholic

Always skeptical.... after 20 years of law enforcement (and other life experiences)... kinda sealed the deal for me. I place all my faith in Glock.

Now... on an odd note, just a few short months ago, I witnessed something absolutely unexplainable... and that causes my doubts to have doubts.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-16   20:14:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone, Redleghunter (#0)

Do you find it difficult to believe in God or accept the claims of Christianity? I did, when I was an atheist, but I changed my mind, and my reasons for doing so may be of interest to you in your own personal journey and attempts to make sense of life.

I am a freelance writer and lecturer. Since graduating from Oxford in 1973, with a degree in politics and philosophy, I have spent most of my professional life in politics and journalism, loving, as I do, the world of books, ideas and debate. Two questions in particular have always interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

This is great, God bless you A K A Stone,

Bob

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-16   20:16:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: tpaine, GarySpFc (#1)

Would you describe your journey as starting out raised Christian but yet originally a skeptic?

Or were you devout in Christian ministry and evangelism and then turned to skepticism?

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-16   20:28:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BobCeleste, GarySpFc, A K A Stone, liberator (#4)

Yes a powerful testimony. I have to admit it has been years since picking up a CS Lewis tome. Will add to my yearly reading list.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-16   20:33:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: redleghunter, Garyspfc (#5)

Would you describe your journey as starting out raised Christian but yet originally a skeptic?

Or were you devout in Christian ministry and evangelism and then turned to skepticism?

Some people lose faith because they have been taught that evolution is true. Since they believe evolution is true. That has the effect of them not believing in the Bible. Because they can't both be true. Unless you pretend that Genesis says something other then what it plainly and clearly says.

So the answer to the problem is to destroy evolution. That is the belief in it. When you destroy peoples belief in the lie of evolution. Then they will have ground that is tilled and ready to receive the seed.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   20:42:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tpaine, GrandIsland, sneakypete (#7)

Does what I say above apply to you? Does the belief of evolution play a role in whether you believe or not?

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   20:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: tpaine (#1)

Furthermore, it is self-evident to everyone that doing good is the responsibility of all free moral agents,

Two questions in particular They have always mildly interested me. Is there a God? And, if there is, what is the connection between God and freedom?

Your worldview is clearly fixed at this time, and I seriously doubt if you are open to changing your mind regardless of the truth.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-16   20:46:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: A K A Stone (#8)

Does the belief of evolution play a role in whether you believe or not?

No. I believe in evolution. I feel there is too much scientific evidence to state otherwise... however one can't rule out that a higher power, such as God, still created evolution.

I realize the passage in the bible that says God made man in his image, states to the contrary... but that could be a typo... since God never wrote the bible.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-16   21:01:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GrandIsland (#10)

No. I believe in evolution.

since God never wrote the bible.

May I be so bold to say that if your faith wasn't short circuited by a belief in evolution. You might have a different view on that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   21:06:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: GrandIsland (#10)

Yes, yes, all that evidence.

http://www.evidenceforjesuschrist.org/Pages/creationism-id/Darwinism%20Mountian%20of%20Evidence%20Valley%20of%20Death.htm

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-16   21:17:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: GrandIsland (#10)

I feel there is too much scientific evidence to state otherwise...

Can you give 3 or so examples?

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   21:18:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: GrandIsland, ALL (#10)

Several mountains of evidence for you.

From Darwin to Hitler, from Darwin to Marx, from Darwin to Stalin, from Darwin to Columbine, from Darwin to eugenics, from Darwin to euthanasia, from Darwin to infanticide . . . . The connections are undeniable except to those who resolutely oppose truth for fear of the obvious. To those who hate truth and love naturalistic Darwinism, denying the obvious implications of their chosen theory must be a learned adaptation, no doubt necessary to survive in the harsh environment of materialistic science, where on the topic of origins Darwinism and reality rarely coincide. Beyond feeding the mountain of theoretical puffery animating just-so meta-narratives, however, Darwin's theory fuels ideas that clash with reality in every area of life, from ethics to politics to religion, where at each turn the Darwin-inspired unnatural election of natural selection as a guiding light wreaks havoc and wrecks lives. Why can't we ask, "Is it true?"

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-16   21:28:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#13)

Can you give 3 or so examples?

"Scientists have discovered a wealth of evidence concerning human evolution, and this evidence comes in many forms. Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred in brain and body size, locomotion, diet, and other aspects regarding the way of life of early human species over the past 6 million years. Millions of stone tools, figurines and paintings, footprints, and other traces of human behavior in the prehistoric record tell about where and how early humans lived and when certain technological innovations were invented. Study of human genetics show how closely related we are to other primates – in fact, how connected we are with all other organisms – and can indicate the prehistoric migrations of our species, Homo sapiens, all over the world. Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains, which contributes to the big picture of when different milestones in becoming human evolved."

The tracking of human remains, via DNA and carbon dating... also the finding of species that are found land locked on an island that are indigenous to only that island, have adapted to the conditions of that island... and scientific evidence shows that the island was connected to another part of land and the species closely related to the island species are related by DNA but lack the adaptation of the island species. Causes me to believe that all life, can evolve and adapt to survive.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-16   21:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: GrandIsland (#15)

Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains

carbon dating...

You realize that how they date these things isn't very scientific? That it is circular reasoning.

This is cut and paste but they can explain it better then I can.

So, how did evolutionists construct their alleged time frames?

“In about 1830, Charles Lyell, Paul Deshayes, and Heinrich George Bronn independently developed a biostratigraphic technique [Geologic Time Column or Geologic Time Scale] for dating Cenozoic deposits based on relative proportions of living and extinct species of fossil mollusks. Strangely, little effort has been made to test this assumption. This failure leaves the method vulnerable to circularity.”

Stanley, Steven M., Warron O. Addicott, and Kiyotaka Chinzei, “Lyellian Curves in Paleontology: Possibilities and Limitations,” Geology, vol. 8 (September 1980), p. 422 [Emphasis added]

Evolutionists live and die by eight words: “Give me enough time and anything can happen.” This is a false statement. It is not true, as anyone who thinks about it will agree; but it is what they want to believe. Every time that we have discovered a new scientific law, every time that we have come to understand a new principle, every time that we have found new physical evidence that evolution is not true, evolutionists will respond with their mantra: “Give me enough time and anything can happen.”

Note that evolutionists do not, and did not; use any modern dating technology, such as Carbon-14, Uranium decaying into Lead, etc., to determine these ages for the earth. This is for two reasons. First, they invented the millions and billions of years that they talk about prior to any of these technologies coming into existence. Second, they know that none of these techniques work. They all start with five fatal assumptions and Carbon-14 starts with seven false assumptions. Obviously, if you derive a date using techniques that start with five or seven false assumptions, your determined age will be false. Honest evolutionists admit that this is true.

“Apart from very ‘modern’ examples, which are really archaeology, I can think of no cases of radioactive decay being used to date fossils.”

Agar, Derek V., “Fossil Frustrations,” New Scientist, vol. 100 (November 10, 1983), p. 425. [Emphasis added]

“Radiometric dating would not have been feasible if the Geologic Column had not been erected first.”

O’Rourke, J. E., “Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 54 [Emphasis added]

The layers of sedimentary rock that do exist in the ground are not found in the youngest to oldest order that they are shown in secular science textbooks. Nowhere does such a column of layers exist except in the textbook. Honest evolutionists agree with this statement.

“If there were a column of sediments … Unfortunately no such column exists.”

Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Earth Science 1989, p. 326 [Emphasis added]

Evolutionists rearrange the layers, found all around the world, into a column that would support their view if it were true. Such a column does not exist in nature. It only exists in the textbooks and in the minds of those who believe it.

If no such column exists, and no modern technology works to yield reliable ages for the sedimentary rock layers found in the ground, how do evolutionists determine the supposed ages that they so delightfully publish for consumption by a gullible public?

Simple! They us a form of false circular reasoning! They determine the age of the rock layers by the fossils that they contain, and then they turn around and determine the ages assigned to the fossils by the ages of the rock layers that they were found in. The fossils that are used to determine the age of the rock layers are called “Index” or “Key” fossils. When you find these specific fossils, then you supposedly know the age of the rock; and once you know the age of the rock, you automatically know the age of the fossil!

It’s so simple! If you do not believe me, then consider what prominent evolutionists have been writing in the secular school textbooks.

In the same textbook it says this:

“Scientists use index fossils to determine the age of rock layers.” [You date the rocks by using the fossils.] Glenco, Earth Science, 1999, p. 331

“The geologic time scale is divided up into subunits based on geologic events and the appearance and disappearance of types of organisms.” [You date the fossils by using the rocks.] Glenco, Earth Science, 1999, p. 358

In another secular school science textbook we find these two statements on opposing pages:

“Fossils in the lower layers of sedimentary rock are older than those found in the upper layers. Often, the layers of rock can be dated by types of fossils they contain.”

[You date the rocks by knowing the age of the fossils that they contain.]

Glenco, Biology, 1994, p. 306 [Emphasis added]

“Scientists have determined the relative times of appearance and disappearance of many kinds of organisms from the locations of their fossils in sedimentary rock layers.”

[You date the fossils by knowing the ages of the rocks that they are found in.]

Glenco, Biology, 1994, p. 307 [Emphasis added]

The use of circular reasoning by evolutionists to date rocks by fossils and fossils by rocks has been often called into question by non-evolutionists.

“Are the authorities maintaining, on the one hand, that evolution is documented by geology and, on the other hand, that geology is documented by evolution? Isn’t this a circular argument?"

Larry Azar, “Biologists, Help!” Bioscience, vol. 28, November 1978, p. 714 [Emphasis added]

Scientists have been well aware of the evolutionists’ problem of curricular reasoning in deriving the ages for fossils and rocks for over 50 years.

“It cannot be denied that from a strictly philosophical standpoint geologists are here arguing in a circle. The succession of organisms has been determined by a study of their remains embedded in the rocks, and the relative ages of the rocks are determined by the remains of organisms that they contain.”

Rastall, R. H., “Geology,” Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 10 (1949), p. 168 [Emphasis added]

Even some of the most devout and well known evolutionists are honest when confronting this problem. The highly respected coauthor of the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria, Dr. Niles Eldredge, Curator, Division of Paleontology, American Museum of Natural History, New York City, since 1969, has written that the fossils cannot be used to date the rocks that they are found in. One reason for this is that we now know that all animal and plant kinds are found all the way “back” to the beginning of Cambrian layers. There is no gradual ascension of life forms in the rock layers. There is no “Tree of Life” to be found in the ground.

“Paleontologists ever since Darwin have been searching (largely in vain) for the sequences of insensibly graded series of fossils that would stand as examples of the sort of wholesale transformation of species that Darwin envisioned as the natural product of the evolutionary process. Few saw any reason to demur - though it is a startling fact that, ... most species remain recognizably themselves, virtually unchanged throughout their occurrence in geological sediments of various ages.”

Eldredge, Niles, “Progress in Evolution?” New Scientist, vol. 110 (June 5, 1986), p. 55 [Emphasis added]

Ten years after Dr. Eldredge coauthored the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria with the late Marxist Dr. Stephen J. Gould of Harvard; he was reconsidering his position and wrote:

“Paleontologists cannot operate this way. There is no way simply to look at a fossil and say how old it is unless you know the age of the rocks it comes from. And this poses something of a problem: if we date the rocks by their fossils, how can we then turn around and talk about patterns of evolutionary change through time in the fossil record?”

Eldredge, Niles, Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985), p. 52 [Emphasis added]

Evolutionists do not use any form of modern technology to determine of the age of sedimentary rock layers. This may be confirmed by simply quoting the noted Canadian geologist, and past President of the Canadian Geological Society, Dr. Derek Agar:

“Ever since William [“Fossil”] Smith [1769-1839] at the beginning of the 19th century, fossils have been and still are the best and most accurate method of dating and correlating the rocks in which they occur. Apart from very ‘modern’ examples, which are really archaeology, I can think of no cases of radioactive decay being used to date fossils.”

Agar, Derek V., “Fossil Frustrations,” New Scientist, vol. 100 (November 10, 1983), p. 425 [Emphasis added]

One honest evolutionary believing geologist admits to all the problems and he tells us how evolutionists may overcome all these objections to their use of circular reasoning in determining the ages for the sedimentary layers and fossils that are in the ground. He presents his solution for all to see in the prestigious magazine, The American Journal of Science.

“The intelligent layman has long suspected circular reasoning in the use of rocks to date fossils and fossils to date rocks. The geologist has never bothered to think of a good reply, feeling the explanations are not worth the trouble as long as the work brings results.”

O’Rourke, J. E., “Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 51 [Emphasis added]

Are you intelligent lay people? Then you have long suspected this problem - right? He goes on to say:

“The rocks do date the fossils, but the fossils date the rocks more accurately. Stratigraphy cannot avoid this kind of reasoning if it insists on using only temporal concepts, because circularity is inherent in the derivation of time scales.”

O’Rourke, J. E., “Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 53 [Emphasis added]

(You have got to love that sentence which is made up of pure pschobabble.)

“Radiometric dating would not have been feasible if the Geologic Column had not been erected first.”

O’Rourke, J. E., “Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 54 [Emphasis added]

What are his final solutions?

“The charge of circular reasoning in stratigraphy [the study of layers in the ground] can be handled in several ways. [1] It can be ignored, as not the proper concern of the public. [2] It can be denied, by calling down the Law of Evolution. [3] It can be admitted, as a common practice … [4] or it can be avoided, by pragmatic reasoning.”

O’Rourke, J. E., “Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy,” American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 54 [Emphasis added]

What were his final solutions?

First, the public should not be concerned about this problem even though it does exist.

Second, there is no such thing as “The Law of Evolution.” That is just his tongue-in-cheek way of saying that they know the problem is real, but if you believe hard enough everything will be okay.

Third, just be honest and admit it all, but hope no one is really paying attention to what you are saying.

Fourth, pragmatic reasoning may be used to justify anything that you want to believe. How often have we all wanted to avoid a problem in our lives by using pragmatic reasoning? Haven’t you wanted to avoid that traffic ticket by pragmatic reasoning? Haven’t you wanted to avoid the next mortgage payment by pragmatic reasoning?

- See more at: http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp? id=42#sthash.efL9Cwv1.dpuf

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   21:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GrandIsland (#16)

“Fossils in the lower layers of sedimentary rock are older than those found in the upper layers. Often, the layers of rock can be dated by types of fossils they contain.”

Something to consider.

Maybe the layers of sedimentary rock are there because of the flood in the Bible. If there really was a flood as the Bible says. Then you would expect to find billions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. That is what you see. Evolutionists just using circular reasoning and declaring that certain layers mean certain numbers of years isn't very scientific.

Ever been to the Badlands? Ever notice that there are parallel lines that look like the shore line receding.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-16   21:40:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: A K A Stone (#16) (Edited)

You realize that how they date these things isn't very scientific? That it is circular reasoning.

I realize that. But the writings in the bible are even less scientific.

To be religious, to truly believe... you must have faith in a higher power. I just can't muster up enough faith to achieve that ability.

I do however believe there very well could be a higher power and I'm completely wrong. I believe in your constitutional right to be able to follow and spread that faith. I totally respect all religious people, regardless of their religion as long as their religion doesn't preach harming others that doesn't believe that religion.

I would never tell you Stone, that you are a fool for worshiping a higher power. I simply don't have the physical evidence to state that to you or any other religious person of faith, that your ideals are false. All I ever ask, is that my lack of faith be respected in the same way... for if I'm wrong, it's only I that will suffer.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-16   21:44:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: GrandIsland, liberator, GarySpFc, Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#15)

Adaptation is observable. What the theory of evolution lacks is evidence of macro evolution. Meaning there is a lack of transitional forms. A bird is a bird and a mammal a mammal.

All the missing links have been frauds.

The scientific method requires observation. We cannot observe the transitional forms. There are none. The theory is that they must be there.

So we observe certain birds on a remote island all adapt and their beaks change. Then go back to normal. They are still birds.

Evolution would be convincing if we found a transitional form, which for example, had both lungs and gills; feet and fins at the same time. That is the key "missing link" of evolution.

It is bad logic and science to conclude birds adapting to their environment is akin to a sea mammal becoming a land walker. Philosophically, the question, also, would be "for what purpose?"

Which transports us to the ultimate question: Can we truly believe something comes from nothing? Evolution forces one to come to this most illogical and unobserved conclusion.

When some atheists are presented with this dilemma they tend to expound on aliens seeding Earth with life. Still ultimately does not address the something from nothing issue.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-16   22:13:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: redleghunter (#19) (Edited)

is bad logic and science to conclude birds adapting to their environment is akin to a sea mammal becoming a land walker. Philosophically, the question, also, would be "for what purpose?"

But it's enough for me to conclude that, it is possible that modern day man evolved from the earliest forms of man. Quite possibly still evolving. Getting smaller, smarter, less hairy, weaker... and live longer.

I still believe the possibility that a God created it all... or maybe not.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-16   22:50:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A K A Stone (#7)

Some people lose faith because they have been taught that evolution is true.

HorseHillary! Faith is about faith,and evolution is about science. Faith is emotion,and science is provable fact.

Nobody ever lost their faith because of evolution.

SOME people accept evolution as part of God's overall plan and keep their religious faith.

Since they believe evolution is true. That has the effect of them not believing in the Bible. Because they can't both be true. Unless you pretend that Genesis says something other then what it plainly and clearly says.

So the answer to the problem is to destroy evolution. That is the belief in it. When you destroy peoples belief in the lie of evolution. Then they will have ground that is tilled and ready to receive the seed.

A long-winded way of saying you want America and the world to be a Christian Dictatorship,with everyone mind-washed and no criticism of Christianity is ever heard.

You have a lot in common with the radical Muslims,but will never admit it.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-17   8:01:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: A K A Stone (#8)

Does the belief of evolution play a role in whether you believe or not?

No.

And for the record,I would not say I "believe" in evolution at the level you are assuming. I believe it to be the most likely explanation,but can't certify every aspect of evolutionary claims as being absolutely factual.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-17   8:03:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: GrandIsland (#10)

God never wrote the bible.

Amazing how many fundies overlook that little factoid,ain't it?

The Bible was written by his PR people,and we ALL know PR people would never lie,right?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-17   8:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: sneakypete (#21)

Horsepete. You lost your faith because you believe in the fairy tale of evolution.

You believe something that there is zero proof for. Evilution is your religion. It isn't science.

Unlesss you can tell me how the human brain evolved.

Or how the first person got pregnant.

Evolution is a theory only morons believe.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-17   8:14:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: sneakypete (#22)

Does the belief of evolution play a role in whether you believe or not? No.

Pete you are not being honest with yourself. I don't understand why you have to lie to yourself. I guess you just remain WILLINGLY ignorant. Come on Pete open up your eyes.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-17   8:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: A K A Stone (#24)

Horsepete. You lost your faith because you believe in the fairy tale of evolution.

You believe something that there is zero proof for.

You are the one that believes in magic,miracles,and holy spooks,not me.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-17   11:29:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A K A Stone (#25)

Pete you are not being honest with yourself.

I make a real effort to be honest with both myself and with everyone else.

Your problem is you ask me questions,don't like the answer,and then get mad because you didn't like the answer.

If you don't want to know what I think,maybe you should quit asking me?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-17   11:31:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: sneakypete (#21)

HorseHillary! Faith is about faith,and evolution is about science. Faith is emotion,and science is provable fact.

Nobody ever lost their faith because of evolution.

SOME people accept evolution as part of God's overall plan and keep their religious faith.

Horse Hockey! Faith is NOT emotion, nor is it a leap into the dark. Faith is an action, or a readiness to act, based on the confidence one has in the object of their belief.

When you went to Airborne school the training taught you to have confidence that your parachute would open, and transport you safely to the ground. You believed the parachute would open the first time you went on the plane, because of all the repetition you went through. The confidence you had in the parachute led you to make the first jump. That was faith. Yes, there was a lot of emotion, but that was not the faith element.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-17   12:19:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A K A Stone (#11)

May I be so bold to say that if your faith wasn't short circuited by a belief in evolution. You might have a different view on that.

There maybe a little truth in that. Not entirely sure. For me, the theory of evolution has little to do with the proof or lack of proof of a God. There is no reason not to assume (for me, anyway) that everything science theorizes on, wasn't caused and created by God.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-17   12:20:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: GarySpFC (#28)

When you went to Airborne school the training taught you to have confidence that your parachute would open, and transport you safely to the ground. You believed the parachute would open the first time you went on the plane, because of all the repetition you went through. The confidence you had in the parachute led you to make the first jump. That was faith. Yes, there was a lot of emotion, but that was not the faith element.

I understand that need for faith. Without it, nobody would jump out of the plane. However, if it never crosses your mind that there is a possibility your shoot wouldn't open... you were just fooling yourself. lol

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-17   12:25:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: sneakypete, ALL (#27) (Edited)

In 1999 or 2000 I was asked by Linda Holloway, then Chairwoman, of the Kansas School Board to testify before the board during the Kansas Evolution controversy. As I mentioned previously there were reporters from around the world attending, and I would put the number to be at least 1,000. I was the only one testifying against the Darwinists, and the odds were stacked against me 9 to 1.

Evolution, God and Atheism

I would like to say statements to the effect that one can believe in evolution and God's hand working in creation displays an ignorance of Darwin's belief system and what is being taught.

Firstly, if one believes God is using the evolutionary process in creation, then they would use the term "Divine selection," and not "natural selection" as favored by the evolutionists. Evolutionists are very clear that natural selection is an unsupervised, impersonal, and purposelessprocess. In 1995, the official Position Statement of the American National Association of Biology Teachers (NABT) accurately states the general understanding of major science organizations and educators:

"The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable, and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies and changing environments."

Or in the words of the famous evolutionist, George Gaylord Simpson, "Man is the result of a purposeless, and natural process that did not have him in mind." I have to ask:

How do they know the process was impersonal?
How do they know the process was unsupervised?
How do they know the process is purposeless?
How do they know the process is mindless?

​Their statements are problematic in that they are unscientific. It cannot be proven that evolutionary processes are "impersonal" or that humans were "not in mind." Science cannot demonstrate these assumptions either way--and that's the problem with their position. They become proponents of a religion of atheistic naturalism; I say religion because their conclusion is NOT science, it is faith. Clearly, their definition is diametrically opposed to any concept of a personal Creator being involved in either a creation or evolutionary process.

​In 1997, theologians Alvin Plantinga and Huston Smith notified NABT that their official position statement was really an implied atheism and went beyond what the scientific evidence for the theory could show. NABT discussed the objection for all of five minutes and voted to continue their position statement.

Later, NABT removed "impersonal" and "unsupervised" from the language after the evolutionist spokesperson Eugenie Scott informed NABT the definition would give Phillip Johnson ammunition in his fight against their position. They still continue to teach evolution is an unsupervised, impersonal, purposeless, and mindless process. Any teacher denying that is either fired or transferred to teaching another subject.

Secondly, in his response to Asa Gray, Darwin specifically stated evolution excludes design. In the view of the great Princeton theologian Charles Hodge, however (as well as every mainstream Christian theologian before the Twentieth Century), excluding design is tantamount to excluding God. Design implies a Designer, God. When one excludes the Designer they have embraced atheism.

Darwin's response to Gray is at the end of his 1868 book, "The Variation of Plants and Animals Under Domestication." Darwin concluded his book with a lengthy refutation of Gray's position. Using the metaphor of a house built by an architect utilizing uncut fragments of stone, Darwin explained that "the fragments of stone, though indispensable to the architect, bear to the edifice built by him the same relation which the fluctuating variations of each organic being bear to the varied and admirable structures ultimately acquired by its modified descendants." The shape of each fragment "may be called accidental, but this is not strictly correct; for the shape of each depends on a long sequence of events, all obeying natural laws." Nevertheless, "in regard to the use to which the fragments may be put, their shape may be strictly said to be accidental." In Darwin's metaphor, of course, the architect is natural selection. Darwin continued:

"Can it be reasonably maintained that the Creator intentionally ordered, if we use the words in any ordinary sense, that certain fragments of rock should assume certain shapes so that the builder might erect his edifice? If the various laws which have determined the shape of each fragment were not predeter-mined for the builder's sake, can it with any greater probability be maintained that He specially ordained for the sake of the breeder each of the innumerable variations in our domestic animals and plants; - many of these variations being of no service to man, and not beneficial, far more often injurious, to the creatures themselves? Did He ordain that the crop and tail-feathers of the pigeon should vary in order that the fancier might make his grotesque pouter and fantail breeds? Did He cause the frame and mental qualities of the dog to vary in order that a breed might be formed of indomitable ferocity, with jaws fitted to pin down the bull for man's brutal sport? But if we give up the principle in one case - if we do not admit that the variations of the primeval dog were intentionally guided in order that the greyhound, for instance, that perfect image of symmetry and vigor, might be formed - no shadow of reason can be assigned for the belief that variations, alike in nature and the result of the same general laws, which have been the groundwork through natural selection of the formation of the most perfectly adapted animals in the world, man included, were intentionally and specially guided."

Americans fought and died for religious liberty, and the right to educate their children in the religion of their choice. Please answer why evolutionists arrogantly DEMAND the right to indoctrinate OUR children into THEIR religion?

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-17   12:30:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: GarySpFC (#31)

Please answer why evolutionists arrogantly DEMAND the right to indoctrinate OUR children into THEIR relig

Because they are humans, with all the faults and weaknesses that come along with that.

Same as the Christians who try to (and love to) use the authority of government to force their way on non-believers.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-02-17   12:38:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: GrandIsland (#30)

I understand that need for faith. Without it, nobody would jump out of the plane. However, if it never crosses your mind that there is a possibility your shoot wouldn't open... you were just fooling yourself. lol

Do you have faith your car will get you to work? Maybe you are fooling yourself.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-17   12:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: GarySpFC (#33)

Do you have faith your car will get you to work? Maybe you are fooling yourself.

It's a 2013 with only 30,000 miles. I'm reasonably sure it will take me anywhere I need to go. But I don't believe that anyone time I drive it, it won't break down.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-17   12:42:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Biff Tannen (#32)

Same as the Christians who try to (and love to) use the authority of government to force their way on non-believers.

We don't! Freedom respects the right to examine all relevant views.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-17   12:44:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: GarySpFC (#35)

I never accused all Christians.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-02-17   12:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: GrandIsland (#29)

There maybe a little truth in that. Not entirely sure. For me, the theory of evolution has little to do with the proof or lack of proof of a God. There is no reason not to assume (for me, anyway) that everything science theorizes on, wasn't caused and created by God.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

You are obviously entitled to your opinion.

How about this. Do you think that in order to make the Bible fit with evolution you have to NOT take some verses for what they say. And PRETEND or Stretch the meaning to mean something else. In so doing you are also telling yourself that the Bible isn't accurate because it doesn't line up with evolution.

Regardless of your opinion. I think you are a reasonable person. Contrary to all this canary talk.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-17   14:08:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Biff Tannen (#32)

Because they are humans, with all the faults and weaknesses that come along with that.

Same as the Christians who try to (and love to) use the authority of government to force their way on non-believers.

So you are saying that evolutionists like Christians both believe they are right.

Well Christians are and evolutionists aren't. What I said is true. But for arguments sake. You can consider it this way. "What if christians area ctually right'?

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-17   14:11:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: GarySpFC, liberator, BobCeleste, Don, A K A Stone (#28)

Horse Hockey! Faith is NOT emotion, nor is it a leap into the dark. Faith is an action, or a readiness to act, based on the confidence one has in the object of their belief.

When you went to Airborne school the training taught you to have confidence that your parachute would open, and transport you safely to the ground. You believed the parachute would open the first time you went on the plane, because of all the repetition you went through. The confidence you had in the parachute led you to make the first jump. That was faith. Yes, there was a lot of emotion, but that was not the faith element.

LOL indeed. It also helped the Airborne School Baptist Chaplain was the first out the door on my first jump:)

I once alluded to a Francis Schaeffer parable on faith. I found it:

“Faith” Versus Faith.

One must analyze the word faith and see that it can mean two completely opposite things.

Suppose we are climbing in the Alps and are very high on the bare rock, and suddenly the fog shuts down. The guide turns to us and says that the ice is forming and that there is no hope; before morning we will all freeze to death here on the shoulder of the mountain. Simply to keep warm the guide keeps us moving in the dense fog further out on the shoulder until none of us have any idea where we are. After an hour or so, someone says to the guide, “Suppose I dropped and hit a ledge ten feet down in the fog. What would happen then?” The guide would say that you might make it until the morning and thus live. So, with absolutely no knowledge or any reason to support his action, one of the group hangs and drops into the fog. This would be one kind of faith, a leap of faith.

Suppose, however, after we have worked out on the shoulder in the midst of the fog and the growing ice on the rock, we had stopped and we heard a voice which said, “You cannot see me, but I know exactly where you are from your voices. I am on another ridge. I have lived in these mountains, man and boy, for over sixty years and I know every foot of them. I assure you that ten feet below you there is a ledge. If you hang and drop, you can make it through the night and I will get you in the morning.”

I would not hang and drop at once, but would ask questions to try to ascertain if the man knew what he was talking about and if he was not my enemy. In the Alps, for example, I would ask him his name. If the name he gave me was the name of a family from that part of the mountains, it would count a great deal to me. In the Swiss Alps there are certain family names that indicate mountain families of that area. In my desperate situation, even though time would be running out, I would ask him what to me would be the adequate and sufficient questions, and when I became convinced by his answers, then I would hang and drop.

This is faith, but obviously it has no relationship to the other use of the word. As a matter of fact, if one of these is called faith, the other should not be designated by the same word. The historic Christian faith is not a leap of faith in the post-Kierkegaardian sense because He is not silent, and I am invited to ask the adequate and sufficient questions, not only in regard to details, but also in regard to the existence of the universe and its complexity and in regard to the existence of man. I am invited to ask adequate and sufficient questions and then believe Him and bow before Him metaphysically in knowing that I exist because He made man, and bow before Him morally as needing His provision for me in the substitutionary, propitiatory death of Christ.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-17   14:26:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: A K A Stone (#37) (Edited)

1) How about this. Do you think that in order to make the Bible fit with evolution you have to NOT take some verses for what they say. And PRETEND or Stretch the meaning to mean something else. In so doing you are also telling yourself that the Bible isn't accurate because it doesn't line up with evolution.

2) Regardless of your opinion. I think you are a reasonable person. Contrary to all this canary talk.

1) I've never read the bible in its entirety. Only parts. Probably less than 20%. In all honesty, my disbelief is probably based more on my ignorance of what's in the bible. I have a general knowledge of the book, but not any intimate details. What I've ever read or learned of the theory of evolution, it's always seemed rather logical. Like I've said, I have not enough facts to know beyond a reasonable doubt, how we've became to be.

If I were to tell you what I believe the most, it would be this, I guess...

I'm thinking its logical and reasonable to believe there must be a creator or God. Something had to start life and matter.... but I've always had a hard time believing that living beings (that wrote the bible) wrote anything but their interpretation of who and what the creator or God is. Thus I have a hard time placing "faith" in any book documenting a particular religions beliefs. With that said, you can see how I could easily rationalize that evolution could be a scientific fact, and a creator or God started it all and set the evolution in motion.

2) Thanks. I think given my resume coming in the LF front door, you've displayed a great deal of reasonableness, allowing me to post here.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-17   14:33:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: GarySpFC (#31)

"Can it be reasonably maintained that the Creator intentionally ordered, if we use the words in any ordinary sense, that certain fragments of rock should assume certain shapes so that the builder might erect his edifice? If the various laws which have determined the shape of each fragment were not predeter-mined for the builder's sake, can it with any greater probability be maintained that He specially ordained for the sake of the breeder each of the innumerable variations in our domestic animals and plants; - many of these variations being of no service to man, and not beneficial, far more often injurious, to the creatures themselves?

So Obola had in mind Darwin's words when he said:

"You didn't build that...someone else did."

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-17   14:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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