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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 7, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-02-07 16:29:11 by BobCeleste Keywords: None Views: 55288 Comments: 95 What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? You decide: Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:11&12. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-48) not displayed.       .       .       . #49. To: Pericles (#36) I am against abortions but your arguments are failures. Your kind of reasoning has not ended abortions at all is what I am getting at. If you can't show it in the Bible (you can clearly show where being gay is wrong for example) unless you are a Biblical scholar then no one will take it as authoritative. You need to up your game. You still have not shown me how Leviticus 20:1-5 is not, when you understand the word "Seed" talking about abortion. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:59:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: redleghunter (#45) Thank you. Now it is 9:AM so I shall start to type out the thought. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   11:02:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: Vicomte13 (#24) Because I don't see what "Protest-ants" is trying to get at? Me thinks thou protest too much. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-02-09   11:24:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#21) "True, the Protest-ants call them [Catholics] that." Clever! "Protest-Ants" = Small Yuk-yuk. In between washing dishes and serving food, will you be performing your schtick all week? Liberator  posted on  2015-02-09   11:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: redleghunter, Pericles, GarySpFc (#46) That was Sola Scriptura. Where did you think the church fathers gained their understanding on the prohibition of abortion? Pope Francis?? Liberator  posted on  2015-02-09   11:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, liberator (#46) (Edited) Where did you think the church fathers gained their understanding on the prohibition of abortion? Abortion was already seen as a bad thing to be avoided per the Hypoccratic Oath to Apollo. In fact I use dthis to shut up a self professed "Pagan" woman in civics class in college who was arguing she was for abortion and not beholden to Christian values as a pagan. When I mentioned the Oath she looked dumbfounded. I think she replied that maybe it was created after the Christians took over and I told her nope - pretades Jesus by about 600 years and they probably never heard of the Jews of their God when it was created. She then mentioned something about a male dominated world back the and she sat down and refused to continue the conversation. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   11:32:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: BobCeleste (#40) How would you separate the executioner from those who stand by and allow it to happen without interfering? Jesus was innocent. Many bystanders, such as John and the two Marys, knew it. Ten of the other Apostles and many disciples knew it. He was tortured to death slowly in public, an innocent man, and he had at least 13 people who knew it. Were they supposed to come up Golgotha and attack the Roman guards? They could have. Should they have? The result would have been their deaths also, and probably the deaths of some of the guards. When Saul went persecuting Christians, were Christians supposed to lie in wait and kill that bastard? Were they? When Stephen was stoned, were the Christians supposed to surge forth and start murdering the Sanhedrin? Had they, maybe that murderous bastard Saul of Tarsus would have been killed early and not been allowed to go on his tear of evil. God did eventually knock him off his horse and close his eyes, but really, wouldn't it have been justice to put a knife through that blackguard's heart BEFORE he got the chance to convert, to kill the murderer once and for all and be rid of him. The world didn't NEED Paul, after all. Had be been justly slaughtered for the murderous servant of Hell that he was before his conversion, God would have just chosen somebody else. Right? Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   11:41:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: SOSO (#51) Me thinks thou protest too much. Do you dislike Protestants qua Protestants? I don't. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   11:54:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: A K A Stone (#47) Doesn't it say God isn't willing that any should perish? Yes, but Jesus also says people who are clearly dead are alive. Meaning that Jesus speaks of the spiritual life, not the physical life. Jesus speaks of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Moses as alive. But the bones of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses are all mouldering in the grave. Was Jesus lying, then, when he said that God is the God of the living, and presented them as alive? No. He was speaking of the spiritual life. The Devil tempts men to commit sin, and thereby incur the death sentence, but it is God who authorizes the execution. God does not WANT anybody to perish. He does not WANT anybody to sin. But they do sin nevertheless, and God does not change his opinion: you sin, you die. Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things." You are the one who is confused. Somebody told you God can't do evil. But God himself told you from his own mouth that he CREATES evil. Of course he does. SATAN didn't unleash the Flood that killed everything in the world. God did. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   12:00:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: Vicomte13 (#56) Do you dislike Protestants qua Protestants? I don't. I generally prefer to live and let live.......until I am attacked. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-02-09   12:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Vicomte13 (#55) Were they supposed to come up Golgotha and attack the Roman guards? No, for the Lord had already covered that in Matthew 26:51 thru 54. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   12:28:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: SOSO (#58) I generally prefer to live and let live.......until I am attacked. Me too. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   13:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: BobCeleste (#59) No, for the Lord had already covered that in Matthew 26:51 thru 54. Were they supposed to attack when Stephen was being dragged out and stoned? Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   13:13:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: BobCeleste (#39) Gary, I have heard the same thing numerous times by women who have multiple abortions, men who have brought their daughters, wife or girl friend for an abortion, and most of all from those sick, vicious, hell bent that do abortions. Bob, I agree abortion is murder, but the word itself is not in the Bible. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-09   13:16:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: Pericles, BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh, (#8) Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament so he does not command anything for us to do. And vengeance will be for the Lord. My thought about abortion is that as Christians we should oppose it. We should always strive to help and protect the weakest among us and no one is weaker and more defenseless than the unborn. I certainly agree with you that vengeance will be for the LORD. I see nothing in Scripture that tells me we will be going to some place for punishment because we didn't act. This line of thinking diminishes Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. wmfights  posted on  2015-02-09   13:27:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Liberator (#53) Me: Where did you think the church fathers gained their understanding on the prohibition of abortion? You: Pope Francis?? LOL. Where's the latest Pope Frank I publicity disaster posted? Oh only have to go to TOS to pull one down:) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   13:37:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, Vicomte13 (#54) Abortion was already seen as a bad thing to be avoided per the Hypoccratic Oath to Apollo. In fact I use dthis to shut up a self professed "Pagan" woman in civics class in college who was arguing she was for abortion and not beholden to Christian values as a pagan. So the church fathers, as in for example Irenaeus, 'knew' abortion was murder because of the testimony of the heathen pagans of their age, and not because of their exhaustive studies of TaNaKh and B'riyt HaHhadashah? "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   13:42:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: redleghunter (#65) So the church fathers, as in for example Irenaeus, 'knew' abortion was murder because of the testimony of the heathen pagans of their age, and not because of their exhaustive studies of TaNaKh and B'riyt HaHhadashah? St Paul said the Athenians worshiped God without knowing who he was. The Greek phiolosphy and logic and the Hebrew spiritualism came together in the New Testament and completed each other. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   14:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#66) The Greek phiolosphy and logic and the Hebrew spiritualism came together in the New Testament and completed each other. I think the pagan syncretism came a bit later. But no, Christianity is not based on a syncretism of Greek philosophy and Hebrew 'spiritualism.' It's a good try but no. Maybe when the church fell into pagan syncretism later on but not the NT times. All the apostles were very Hebrew. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   14:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#67) (Edited) I think the pagan syncretism came a bit later. But no, Christianity is not based on a syncretism of Greek philosophy and Hebrew 'spiritualism.' I did not implay syncretism at all. Only that the Greeks using their philosophy discerned some of God's truths. See the Jewish Philo of Alexandria. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   15:04:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: Pericles (#68) I did not implay syncretism at all. Only that the Greeks using their philosophy discerned some of God's truths. See the Jewish Philo of Alexandria. Total nonsense! Greek philosophers had absolutely nothing to do with writing the New Testament. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-09   16:17:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: Vicomte13 (#61) Let's get refocused. Here is the original post: What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? You decide: Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:11&12. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   16:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: GarySpFC, Vicomte13 (#69) Total nonsense! Greek philosophers had absolutely nothing to do with writing the New Testament. The Greek Fathers were Greek philosophers before their conversions. They converted because Greek philosphies matched the New Testament. You sound like Tertullian who stated "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" and was rebuked for it and the Islamic scholar Al-Ghazali in "his 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology. The encounter with skepticism led al-Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present Will of God. The Incoherence also marked a turning point in Islamic philosophy in its vehement rejections of Aristotle and Plato. The book took aim at the falasifa, a loosely defined group of Islamic philosophers from the 8th through the 11th centuries (most notable among them Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew intellectually upon the Ancient Greeks." Al-Ghazali's renounciation of Hellenistic philosophy doomed Islam to a backwardness it never recovered from. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   17:03:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: BobCeleste (#70) (Edited) Let's get refocused. Here is the original post: What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? God commands everybody: doctor, mother, bystander, to not kill anybody. God commands people who shed blood to have their blood shed, after a legal process. God commands people not to take revenge into their own hands. God permits people to arm themselves for self-defense and to defend others. So, in the case of the baby about to be killed, you have two choices: (1) You can verbally object to the evil laws of the land, pray for the baby's spirit, but not strike violently at the people doing it. If you take this route, you will neither be condemned by the laws of the country OR condemned by the laws of God, for God did not command pro-active violence that will result in your own immediate destruction or death. That is one thing lacking in the Scriptures: Jesus suggested peaceful cooperation with morally repulsive authorities, keeping the mind focused on God. He didn't say whether this was to preserve the life of the oppressed one, or to prevent the oppressed one from committing violence. He merely gave the example. (2) You can take justice into your own hands and kill the doctor. You can't kill the mother without killing the child. Now you have a set of questions that Scripture doesn't answer for you very well. You have killed. You have shed blood. You've cast the first stone, and taken a life to - temporarily - save a life. Have you saved a life? Perhaps. More probably the abortion will take place anyway. You will be punished, and in a state where there is the death penalty, you may be put to death for first degree murder. You're a murderer who has executed judgment without a process. And Jesus will be the judge. Given what Jesus did, and what the Apostles did - how they went to their deaths. Given that the Christians did not murder Paul when he was out there tracking them down and murdering him, but instead submitted to the maltreatment, one might worry. On the other hand, if the child were visible, and men were coming to kill it, and you killed them, that would be justifiable. But in that case, the law would not cage you or kill you. Still, if men of overwhelming force were going to kill an innocent and you did not go in and sacrifice your own life in a blaze of hopeless resistance, God would not condemn you for that. That is clear enough from the behavior of prophets and oppressed people all across the Biblical timeline. So, the crux of your question is two-fold: if you murder abortion doctors, will you be thrown into the fire as a murderer at final judgment? The answer to that probably depends on your mental state and reasons. Maybe yes, maybe no. The Scriptures point both way. If you do NOT murder the abortion doctor, and instead pray and remain meek, will you be thrown into the fire at final judgment? And the answer to that is that you will certainly not be thrown into the fire for that. God never commands any Christian to actively pick up the sword to go out to kill. He permits carrying a sword for defense. He does not command Christians to attack. A comparable situation was the death of Terri Schiavo. Were Terry Schiavo's parents, or any other person, authorized by God to begin to murder the police guarding Schiavo, the medical staff who refused to feed her, the judge who pronounced her death sentence, or the husband who sought her death? You tell me what you think. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   17:16:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#68) I did not implay syncretism at all. Only that the Greeks using their philosophy discerned some of God's truths. See the Jewish Philo of Alexandria. Only if you see the Gnostic movements and docetism as "discerning 'truths'." Gnosticism ORIGINS Some German scholars, such as R. Reitzenstein, W. Bousset and R. Bultmann, have strongly supported the concept of pre-Christian Gnosticism. The sophisticated second-century religio-philosophical systems did not get that way overnight, since it would appear that a certain amount of lead time is required for their development. Those scholars believe that gnosticism is of Iranian origin. This hypothesis has been abandoned; the alleged Iranian mystery of the "saved savior" has been disproved. At present, many scholars are inclined to believe that gnosticism is built upon Hellenistic-Jewish foundations and can be traced to centers like Alexandria, which had a large Jewish population. Polemics in the writings of the Jewish philosopher Philo, who himself was an opponent of local heresies, make it clear that he knew Jewish groups that had already formulated certain basic elements of gnosticism, though a consistent system did not yet exist in pre-Christian times. http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex/I-Intro/chapter4.html "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   17:26:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: Pericles (#71) The Greek Fathers were Greek philosophers before their conversions. They converted because Greek philosphies matched the New Testament. You clearly don't know the first thing about the New Testament or its history. Furthermore, you are denying the work and role of the Holy Spirit in the conversion process. You sound like Tertullian who stated "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" and was rebuked for it and the Islamic scholar Al-Ghazali in "his 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology. The encounter with skepticism led al-Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present Will of God. Tertullian despised Greek philosophy. Your sentence regarding Tertullian is totally incoherent as to who rebuked him and the connection between the two. BTW, I have a large Islamic library, including the Life and Teaching of Al- Ghazali. No connection between the two exists in his book. The Incoherence also marked a turning point in Islamic philosophy in its vehement rejections of Aristotle and Plato. The book took aim at the falasifa, a loosely defined group of Islamic philosophers from the 8th through the 11th centuries (most notable among them Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew intellectually upon the Ancient Greeks." This had nothing to do with the New Testament. Al-Ghazali's renounciation of Hellenistic philosophy doomed Islam to a backwardness it never recovered from. These subjects are toptally divorced from each other. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-09   19:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: GarySpFC (#74) (Edited) You clearly don't know the first thing about the New Testament or its history. Furthermore, you are denying the work and role of the Holy Spirit in the conversion process. And you deny God is rational and created an orderly rational universe. Your view of God is Al-Ghazalian aka Islamic. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   22:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#73) Only if you see the Gnostic movements and docetism as "discerning 'truths'." Gnosticism was a subversion of Hellenistic thought and Philo agreed. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   22:33:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: wmfights, BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh (#63) What I am saying is the old Holy Roller arguments don't work. You think Biblical talk will disway any abortions? Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   22:35:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: Pericles (#76) Gnosticism was a subversion of Hellenistic thought and Philo agreed. And Alexandria was a hotbed of heretical doctrines very early on. Seems more than Hellenistic thought was soiled. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   0:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: Pericles (#77) What I am saying is the old Holy Roller arguments don't work. You think Biblical talk will disway any abortions? Sure they do. It is called pointing out error using God's Word. Sure those who reject God and His Holiness don't care and that is why we have on demand abortion in most Western nations. However when supposed Christians preach or teach the Bible is silent on abortion, they must be corrected. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   0:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: redleghunter (#79) There are two parallel threads going on here. One is a dispute as to whether the Scriptures prohibit abortion. The answer to that is obvious. They prohibit abortion, and they also prohibit locking men in cages and burning them alive. And yet neither the words "You shall not commit abortion" nor the words "You shall not lock men in cages and burn them alive" appear anywhere in Scripture. They don't need to: you shall not kill covers the waterfront. The other discussion has to do with intervention to prevent harm. If you see an old lady being beaten by a young punk, and you are armed and strong, do you have the right to intervene? Do you have the moral obligation to intervene? If you DON'T intervene, have you sinned? Once you've answered that question, then change the scenario: The old lady is being beaten by three strong punks, and you are armed and strong. Same questions. Now change the question again: The old lady is being beaten by three strong punks who ARE armed, and you are NOT armed. What are your obligations? If a child is cowering in a corner and a man is moving in to beat him, what are your intervention rights and obligations? Do they change if you are armed or not? (In other words, does your own self- preservation have ANY bearing on your moral obligations under the divine law?) Do they change if the man moving in to beat (and maybe kill - you have no real way of knowing that beforehand) is his father? Our religion tells us that the baby in the womb is no different from the old lady or the child cowering in the corner. You are armed and strong, and the doctor is not. You know that it's happening. Your answer to the question about the old lady or the boy should, logically, be the same as your answer to this one. But is it? One key difference is that if you intervene to save the lady, you will be thanked by the law. If you intervene to save the boy from a killing, you will be thanked, but if you intervene to save the boy from discipline by his father you will be sued and you may lose. If you intervene to prevent the abortion, you will be going to jail for a long time, affecting the lives of your own family (not to mention yourself). If you kill the abortion doctor, you will be put to death in some states, or spend life in prison without parole in others. And so the matter of what your obligations are when the intervention includes your own self-destruction and death. That second question is interesting. There is no clear Scriptural answer. God did not give an exact template for dealing with this sort of evil. You have to reason it out, and whichever way you go, there is Scripture that will tell you you're wrong. My answer is: don't kill except in self-defense of hearth and home, or of things happening right before my eyes. That I suspect a man is beating his wife or child does not give me the right to go hide in his house to catch him and stop him. If he beats her on the street, I can intervene, but intervention may include getting the authorities (after all, SHE could have always gone to the authorities - SHE is not helpless, so I am not morally obligated to destroy MYSELF because SHE has refused to act in her own behalf in the past leading up to this. When it comes to a little child, it is more pathetic and may require intervention, but it's a judgment call. Words? No. Spanking? No. Violent beating? Yes. But what if it's behind closed doors? If I hear screaming, I can go pound on the door, perhaps, but it's usually still better to call the police, because people sometimes scream in anger or despair, not actual pain, and if I go charging in there, where I have no right to be, and I'm wrong, I'm going to jail. I can decide that something is my business, but my judgment will itself be judged by others who have numbers and guns, and if they don't agree with my judgment, my life is destroyed. Obviously if God firmly speaks to me and tells me to do something, I have to do it, but that is unlikely to be the case. It is more likely that I will just be hearing the yelling and having to decide based on imperfect information. And in that case, I think the right answer is to call the authorities who are empowered to enter and handle these things. If I hear what sound like death screams, perhaps I grab a weapon and bang on the door - but if they stop (because they're not REALLY death screams) and there's a through-the-door conversation, I wait until the proper authorities arise. If I deputize myself and I'm wrong, I'm destroyed, for nothing. With an abortion clinic, there's no doubt what is going on in there: babies are being murdered. Does that mean that I can go and commit a murder myself? If I don't KILL the abortion doctor, he will murder others. If I simply break in, I will be arrested and immolate my own life by going to jail, but I won't actually STOP anything, merely delay it. Nowhere does God require us to sacrifice our lives to make a beau geste. There's also no doubt what's going on in prison: a certain number of those men are innocent and their lives are being taken by a brutal and uncaring state. In China and Iran and Saudi Arabia and North Korea, people who are innocent of anything that I would call a crime are facing torture and death. Because I am reasonably sure that some of the men that prison guards are guarding are in truth kidnapped slaves, innocent men, do I have the right to attack the prison to kill the guards? I don't think I do. The way I read Scripture, I do not have the right to kill. Even carrying a sword for self-defense. Yes, Christ authorized it, but the hope there is that just by HAVING the weapon and displaying it, that those who might attack are dissuaded. If they are not, I may have to use it to defend myself, and to defend others right around me. But does that mean that God commissioned me to go marching into pagan places and use that sword proactively to stop them from doing things that are mortal sins? The jihadis think so, and Allah told them to do it. I don't read YHWH or Jesus ever having said that to Jews or Christians, though. I think that this is one of the terrible evils of the world, but that killing is not, after all, the worst evil. Blaspheming the holy spirit is. Killing, even being a serial killer and mass murderer is bad, but it is forgivable. Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul, was a serial killer. He hounded people across the Middle East, dragged them back, procured their deaths and was very satisfied with himself for doing so, a real blackguard. But he was forgiven by God. I do not read that God gave people the right to kill bad people. I read in Scripture only that God commands the execution, after due process, of KILLERS. Elijah excoriated King Ahab for being a Molechite, for idolatry, for murder and other sins. But he didn't set upon the King and strangle him. Nor did he call down fire from Heaven to burn the King alive as he did the priests of Ba'al. If I went and killed abortion doctors, I would know that I was doing it based on a justification that I had ginned up in my head. I talk to God, after all, and God has never told me to do any such thing. He has told me to mourn the children, hate the evil, and to leave vengeance up to him. I think that is the right answer. That's really where the provocative question that lead off the thread is leading. Without asking point blank, it is asking if we have the moral obligation and the right under God to attack and kill abortion providers. And the answer to that is I do not think we have the right to kill. They don't, and we don't. They'll be dead soon enough, and they'll each be thrown into Gehenna, to pay a debt. Murder is a pretty bad debt. Mass murder, the serial killing of infants, I doubt that ends well for the killers. So, do I have to destroy my life here and now in a futile gesture against one of them? No. There is no moral obligation to commit suicide. There is a moral obligation not to. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-10   9:03:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: Vicomte13 (#80) The answer to that is obvious. They prohibit abortion It is not obvious. I know of several debates in colleges where the pro abortion side said - and they said it to Protestants so maybe that is where the abti- abortion side got tripped up - they asked the anti abortionist where does the bible say abortion is wrong? They want a prohibition like that for gays, eating shellfish, etc. We need arguments rooted in logic as well as in faith. We need Athens and Jersualem to end abortions or to be more realistic - minimize them. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-10   10:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: Pericles (#77) You think Biblical talk will disway any abortions? YES, not only do I think it, I know it. Have you never been at an abortion mill where Christians spoke to troubled females about to enter and slaughter their kid? Any who have know that it is only Scripture that works arguing doesn't, not even asking the question, "What did the baby do that was so bad you're going to have little him or her killed?" What have you used, if not Scripture, to change a woman from murdering her baby? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-10   10:31:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: Pericles (#81) It is not obvious. I know of several debates in colleges where the pro abortion side said - and they said it to Protestants so maybe that is where the abti- abortion side got tripped up - they asked the anti abortionist where does the bible say abortion is wrong? They want a prohibition like that for gays, eating shellfish, etc. We need arguments rooted in logic as well as in faith. We need Athens and Jersualem to end abortions or to be more realistic - minimize them. I really disagree with you here on the most profound level. To my reading of Scripture, it is absolutely clear. Life begins at conception. It begins at begetting. That is clear in Scripture. It's not a conjecture. God knows the man in the womb. That's clear in Scripture too. That's not conjecture. God commands men not to kill other men. That's clear in Scripture. It's not conjecture. And Jesus says that murderers are cast into the lake of fire. To me, it's an iron bridge, one girder linked to the next. I don't see how any reasonable person who reads it can see it any differently, to be honest. God never commanded men not to torture other men to death with electricity. He never prohibited plunging people we hate into sulfuric acid. God never prohibited rounding up people and suffocating them in gas chambers. He never prohibited the lining up and guillotining of one's adversaries. God did not prohibit men from killing men by going through a laundry list, he simply flat out prohibited it. HOWEVER a man kills a man, if he does it intentionally and not in repayment of a killing, it's murder. So, the Scripture very clearly dates human life from conception: the begetting by the father, and it very clearly prohibits men from killing other men. And THEREFORE it prohibits street murders, and Auschwitz, and abortion. It's straight linear logic. Do not kill means don't kill in ANY circumstance, unless EXPLICITLY AUTHORIZED (which, for anybody but Hebrews in Israel, was only for the shedding of blood - CHRISTIANS are just plain murderers when they executed people for witchcraft, idolatry, devil worship, adultery, treason, are anything but MURDER). It's crystal clear to me from the text. Let me use an exact parallel: God did not explicitly prohibit women from having sex with other women. Also, God forbade men from lying with other men as with women (sodomy), but he never explicitly forbade men from giving each other handjobs. He never forbade orgies of oral sex between whatever sex. What he forbade was "porneia", which obviously covers all of those things - just as obviously as "don't kill other men" covers abortion. If I took your view, abortion isn't mentioned, and neither are many homosexual acts as long as there is no anal intercourse. But I can't take that view, because if I tried to I would be being dishonest. "Don't kill" self-evidently covers abortion, just as "porneia" self-evidently covers ALL of the various forms of unmarried sex. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-10   10:35:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#80) Elijah excoriated King Ahab for being a Molechite, for idolatry, for murder and other sins. But he didn't set upon the King and strangle him. Nor did he call down fire from Heaven to burn the King alive as he did the priests of Ba'al. A good example. Elijah, by God's sovereign design, had a different mission. He was a prophet. As we know Ahab dies later and eventually his entire house is judged by God using the sword of Jehu. But as the example of the Good Samaritan. If we have the ability to help those in need we do so. Not because a law of some sort says so, but because we love Christ and want to be like Him. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   12:00:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: redleghunter (#84) But as the example of the Good Samaritan. If we have the ability to help those in need we do so. Not because a law of some sort says so, but because we love Christ and want to be like Him. Yes, if we have the ability to HELP. But where is the example from Jesus of the man who HELPS by KILLING SOMEBODY? That's the problem. How can we save a particular unborn facing abortion? We only have one choice: We can physically attack the clinic to stop the procedure. Will this actually save unborn? Probably not. We'll be arrested and then imprisoned, if we're not killed, and the mother will simply reschedule the murder of her child. Bob has spoken of using words of Scripture, and that's about what we're left with, I think. The question of the thread, to my perspective, is when we can proactively draw the sword to go and kill somebody else to stop him from doing something evil. A straight read of Scripture doesn't answer it. "Don't shed blood", "Don't kill", "Don't murder" are pretty categorical. The only clear exception is in execution of judgment, but the judgment process that is depicted, for the Jews anyway, is a careful judicial process requiring multiple witnesses. In God's own state, murderers to unwitnessed murders got away with it, and God's judgment would prevail. Also, the Jews were given the Urim and Thummim to consult God on matters where they had no clear answer. We do not have direct oracles, and without a direct and unmistakeable physics-breaking miracle or two, as tests, I would not trust any spirit that told me to go kill somebody. I would argue Scripture with that spirit and demand to be shown why it was ok, and be shown miracles of the nature that proved I was speaking with God and not some demon. Killing people is a fatal thing: murderers are thrown into the Lake of Fire - Jesus said so twice on the last page of Scripture, in his final words. We have to take that seriously. I cannot read the Scripture and take an admonition to help people so far as to say that that extends to pro-actively killing people for doing evil things, to protect other people from those evils. After all, that would justify pre-emptively killing anybody who leads other people into mortal sin, since physical murder is no worse than pornea: Both get the spirit thrown into the lake of fire. So, one man can justify himself in killing abortionists to save the babies, and another man can justify himself in slaughtering prostitutes because they commit pornea and thereby damn not just themselves but their sex partners. Anybody dealing drugs is marketing pharmakon, and that leads to the destruction of souls. Therefore, one does a favor to all those who would be corrupted by slaughtering all drug dealers. And then we come to false or erroneous religions. After all, physical death, such as suffered by the baby, is MERELY physical death. The baby has no personal sins and will be acceptable to God. But consider the clergy of false religions: Imams and Mullahs, Hindu priests AND RABBIS. Let us not forget that RABBIS ALSO deny the divinity of Christ, and that without Christ, there is no salvation. Religious leaders, by teaching false doctrines, lead people away from God by the millions, and in the ultimate, potentially idolatrous sense. THEREFORE, if we can do a kindness by saving babies' lives, temporarily, by killing the abortion doctor, how much greater service will we do by silencing all tongues that teach falsehoods and prevent people from finding Jesus Christ. We would be doing a kindness by slaughtering all rabbis, and all imams, and all Hindu priests, and all people who preach anything other than Christ, who teach anything other than Christ. We would be purging the Devil's own teaching from the earth and saving people from Hell. That would be a greater kindness, certainly, than saving one baby. Billions of souls saved, at the mere cost of a few million rabbis, imams and pagan priests. And that's called jihad. And it is not in the Scripture. You should be a good Samaritan. That means helping people. It doesn't mean drawing the sword and hacking your way through the evil people, for all have sinned, and therefore all are evil. Live by the sword, die by the sword - Jesus Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-10   13:13:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: Vicomte13 (#85) I have to say Christians are doing everything within the context of the Good Samaritan. They are protesting abortion; they are using whatever political pressure they have to oppose abortion; they are adopting unwanted babies and setting up pregnancy crisis centers to offering options other than abortion. I see these efforts as keeping with the Commands of Christ and the practice of the NT church. So yes, in principle I agree with you. We know of no armed Christian assaults to free other Christians being fed to wild animals in Rome and other cities. Our mission as Christians is an evangelical mission. The Gospel. Christ commanded the Gospel as our marching orders. However, I personally would risk life and limb to protect innocent or defenseless life. There is a way to do so without slashing with a sword or shooting a gun. The history of Christians standing against evil is long. It is a standing and courage not wrought of ourselves but from Christ. Bottom line, as God Wills no me, not us. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   13:45:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: Vicomte13 (#83) To my reading of Scripture, it is absolutely clear. Because you are Catholic. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-10   15:26:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#86) (Edited) So yes, in principle I agree with you. We know of no armed Christian assaults to free other Christians being fed to wild animals in Rome and other cities. Our mission as Christians is an evangelical mission. The Gospel. Christ commanded the Gospel as our marching orders. However, I personally would risk life and limb to protect innocent or defenseless life. There is a way to do so without slashing with a sword or shooting a gun. The history of Christians standing against evil is long. It is a standing and courage not wrought of ourselves but from Christ. Bottom line, as God Wills no me, not us. What right wingers like you say is so topsy turvey in their thinking. There are many that would probably take up arms or risk their lives to save a baby from being aborted but when I ask them are they willing to create a govt funded form of welfare for babies from conception till they are 18 years old - free health care, free day care, free pre K, subsidies to moms, clothing allowances everything possible to make the mother want to birth her baby - if she does not want to keep it - free federal adoptions - end overseas adoptions by the way - the anti-abortion right wing reacts in horror. I think such an approach would end a great many abortions - abortion would be legal but no reason to do it. It is just wrong headed American conservative thinking that keeps doing the same thing since the late 70s. Either that is a sign of insanity on the right or its a way the GOP grifts religous folks on a flashpoint wedge issue to keep them voting and donating to the GOP while the GOP does nothing to end abortion. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-10   15:31:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (89 - 95) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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