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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 7, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-02-07 16:29:11 by BobCeleste Keywords: None Views: 55261 Comments: 95 What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? You decide: Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:11&12. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 92. #8. To: BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh, wmfights (#0) BobCeleste Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament so he does not command anything for us to do. And vengeance will be for the Lord. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-08   19:37:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: Pericles, BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh, (#8) Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament so he does not command anything for us to do. And vengeance will be for the Lord. My thought about abortion is that as Christians we should oppose it. We should always strive to help and protect the weakest among us and no one is weaker and more defenseless than the unborn. I certainly agree with you that vengeance will be for the LORD. I see nothing in Scripture that tells me we will be going to some place for punishment because we didn't act. This line of thinking diminishes Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. wmfights  posted on  2015-02-09   13:27:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: wmfights, BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh (#63) What I am saying is the old Holy Roller arguments don't work. You think Biblical talk will disway any abortions? Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   22:35:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: Pericles (#77) What I am saying is the old Holy Roller arguments don't work. You think Biblical talk will disway any abortions? Sure they do. It is called pointing out error using God's Word. Sure those who reject God and His Holiness don't care and that is why we have on demand abortion in most Western nations. However when supposed Christians preach or teach the Bible is silent on abortion, they must be corrected. redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   0:14:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: redleghunter (#79) There are two parallel threads going on here. One is a dispute as to whether the Scriptures prohibit abortion. The answer to that is obvious. They prohibit abortion, and they also prohibit locking men in cages and burning them alive. And yet neither the words "You shall not commit abortion" nor the words "You shall not lock men in cages and burn them alive" appear anywhere in Scripture. They don't need to: you shall not kill covers the waterfront. The other discussion has to do with intervention to prevent harm. If you see an old lady being beaten by a young punk, and you are armed and strong, do you have the right to intervene? Do you have the moral obligation to intervene? If you DON'T intervene, have you sinned? Once you've answered that question, then change the scenario: The old lady is being beaten by three strong punks, and you are armed and strong. Same questions. Now change the question again: The old lady is being beaten by three strong punks who ARE armed, and you are NOT armed. What are your obligations? If a child is cowering in a corner and a man is moving in to beat him, what are your intervention rights and obligations? Do they change if you are armed or not? (In other words, does your own self- preservation have ANY bearing on your moral obligations under the divine law?) Do they change if the man moving in to beat (and maybe kill - you have no real way of knowing that beforehand) is his father? Our religion tells us that the baby in the womb is no different from the old lady or the child cowering in the corner. You are armed and strong, and the doctor is not. You know that it's happening. Your answer to the question about the old lady or the boy should, logically, be the same as your answer to this one. But is it? One key difference is that if you intervene to save the lady, you will be thanked by the law. If you intervene to save the boy from a killing, you will be thanked, but if you intervene to save the boy from discipline by his father you will be sued and you may lose. If you intervene to prevent the abortion, you will be going to jail for a long time, affecting the lives of your own family (not to mention yourself). If you kill the abortion doctor, you will be put to death in some states, or spend life in prison without parole in others. And so the matter of what your obligations are when the intervention includes your own self-destruction and death. That second question is interesting. There is no clear Scriptural answer. God did not give an exact template for dealing with this sort of evil. You have to reason it out, and whichever way you go, there is Scripture that will tell you you're wrong. My answer is: don't kill except in self-defense of hearth and home, or of things happening right before my eyes. That I suspect a man is beating his wife or child does not give me the right to go hide in his house to catch him and stop him. If he beats her on the street, I can intervene, but intervention may include getting the authorities (after all, SHE could have always gone to the authorities - SHE is not helpless, so I am not morally obligated to destroy MYSELF because SHE has refused to act in her own behalf in the past leading up to this. When it comes to a little child, it is more pathetic and may require intervention, but it's a judgment call. Words? No. Spanking? No. Violent beating? Yes. But what if it's behind closed doors? If I hear screaming, I can go pound on the door, perhaps, but it's usually still better to call the police, because people sometimes scream in anger or despair, not actual pain, and if I go charging in there, where I have no right to be, and I'm wrong, I'm going to jail. I can decide that something is my business, but my judgment will itself be judged by others who have numbers and guns, and if they don't agree with my judgment, my life is destroyed. Obviously if God firmly speaks to me and tells me to do something, I have to do it, but that is unlikely to be the case. It is more likely that I will just be hearing the yelling and having to decide based on imperfect information. And in that case, I think the right answer is to call the authorities who are empowered to enter and handle these things. If I hear what sound like death screams, perhaps I grab a weapon and bang on the door - but if they stop (because they're not REALLY death screams) and there's a through-the-door conversation, I wait until the proper authorities arise. If I deputize myself and I'm wrong, I'm destroyed, for nothing. With an abortion clinic, there's no doubt what is going on in there: babies are being murdered. Does that mean that I can go and commit a murder myself? If I don't KILL the abortion doctor, he will murder others. If I simply break in, I will be arrested and immolate my own life by going to jail, but I won't actually STOP anything, merely delay it. Nowhere does God require us to sacrifice our lives to make a beau geste. There's also no doubt what's going on in prison: a certain number of those men are innocent and their lives are being taken by a brutal and uncaring state. In China and Iran and Saudi Arabia and North Korea, people who are innocent of anything that I would call a crime are facing torture and death. Because I am reasonably sure that some of the men that prison guards are guarding are in truth kidnapped slaves, innocent men, do I have the right to attack the prison to kill the guards? I don't think I do. The way I read Scripture, I do not have the right to kill. Even carrying a sword for self-defense. Yes, Christ authorized it, but the hope there is that just by HAVING the weapon and displaying it, that those who might attack are dissuaded. If they are not, I may have to use it to defend myself, and to defend others right around me. But does that mean that God commissioned me to go marching into pagan places and use that sword proactively to stop them from doing things that are mortal sins? The jihadis think so, and Allah told them to do it. I don't read YHWH or Jesus ever having said that to Jews or Christians, though. I think that this is one of the terrible evils of the world, but that killing is not, after all, the worst evil. Blaspheming the holy spirit is. Killing, even being a serial killer and mass murderer is bad, but it is forgivable. Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul, was a serial killer. He hounded people across the Middle East, dragged them back, procured their deaths and was very satisfied with himself for doing so, a real blackguard. But he was forgiven by God. I do not read that God gave people the right to kill bad people. I read in Scripture only that God commands the execution, after due process, of KILLERS. Elijah excoriated King Ahab for being a Molechite, for idolatry, for murder and other sins. But he didn't set upon the King and strangle him. Nor did he call down fire from Heaven to burn the King alive as he did the priests of Ba'al. If I went and killed abortion doctors, I would know that I was doing it based on a justification that I had ginned up in my head. I talk to God, after all, and God has never told me to do any such thing. He has told me to mourn the children, hate the evil, and to leave vengeance up to him. I think that is the right answer. That's really where the provocative question that lead off the thread is leading. Without asking point blank, it is asking if we have the moral obligation and the right under God to attack and kill abortion providers. And the answer to that is I do not think we have the right to kill. They don't, and we don't. They'll be dead soon enough, and they'll each be thrown into Gehenna, to pay a debt. Murder is a pretty bad debt. Mass murder, the serial killing of infants, I doubt that ends well for the killers. So, do I have to destroy my life here and now in a futile gesture against one of them? No. There is no moral obligation to commit suicide. There is a moral obligation not to. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-10   9:03:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#80) Elijah excoriated King Ahab for being a Molechite, for idolatry, for murder and other sins. But he didn't set upon the King and strangle him. Nor did he call down fire from Heaven to burn the King alive as he did the priests of Ba'al. A good example. Elijah, by God's sovereign design, had a different mission. He was a prophet. As we know Ahab dies later and eventually his entire house is judged by God using the sword of Jehu. But as the example of the Good Samaritan. If we have the ability to help those in need we do so. Not because a law of some sort says so, but because we love Christ and want to be like Him. redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   12:00:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: redleghunter (#84) But as the example of the Good Samaritan. If we have the ability to help those in need we do so. Not because a law of some sort says so, but because we love Christ and want to be like Him. Yes, if we have the ability to HELP. But where is the example from Jesus of the man who HELPS by KILLING SOMEBODY? That's the problem. How can we save a particular unborn facing abortion? We only have one choice: We can physically attack the clinic to stop the procedure. Will this actually save unborn? Probably not. We'll be arrested and then imprisoned, if we're not killed, and the mother will simply reschedule the murder of her child. Bob has spoken of using words of Scripture, and that's about what we're left with, I think. The question of the thread, to my perspective, is when we can proactively draw the sword to go and kill somebody else to stop him from doing something evil. A straight read of Scripture doesn't answer it. "Don't shed blood", "Don't kill", "Don't murder" are pretty categorical. The only clear exception is in execution of judgment, but the judgment process that is depicted, for the Jews anyway, is a careful judicial process requiring multiple witnesses. In God's own state, murderers to unwitnessed murders got away with it, and God's judgment would prevail. Also, the Jews were given the Urim and Thummim to consult God on matters where they had no clear answer. We do not have direct oracles, and without a direct and unmistakeable physics-breaking miracle or two, as tests, I would not trust any spirit that told me to go kill somebody. I would argue Scripture with that spirit and demand to be shown why it was ok, and be shown miracles of the nature that proved I was speaking with God and not some demon. Killing people is a fatal thing: murderers are thrown into the Lake of Fire - Jesus said so twice on the last page of Scripture, in his final words. We have to take that seriously. I cannot read the Scripture and take an admonition to help people so far as to say that that extends to pro-actively killing people for doing evil things, to protect other people from those evils. After all, that would justify pre-emptively killing anybody who leads other people into mortal sin, since physical murder is no worse than pornea: Both get the spirit thrown into the lake of fire. So, one man can justify himself in killing abortionists to save the babies, and another man can justify himself in slaughtering prostitutes because they commit pornea and thereby damn not just themselves but their sex partners. Anybody dealing drugs is marketing pharmakon, and that leads to the destruction of souls. Therefore, one does a favor to all those who would be corrupted by slaughtering all drug dealers. And then we come to false or erroneous religions. After all, physical death, such as suffered by the baby, is MERELY physical death. The baby has no personal sins and will be acceptable to God. But consider the clergy of false religions: Imams and Mullahs, Hindu priests AND RABBIS. Let us not forget that RABBIS ALSO deny the divinity of Christ, and that without Christ, there is no salvation. Religious leaders, by teaching false doctrines, lead people away from God by the millions, and in the ultimate, potentially idolatrous sense. THEREFORE, if we can do a kindness by saving babies' lives, temporarily, by killing the abortion doctor, how much greater service will we do by silencing all tongues that teach falsehoods and prevent people from finding Jesus Christ. We would be doing a kindness by slaughtering all rabbis, and all imams, and all Hindu priests, and all people who preach anything other than Christ, who teach anything other than Christ. We would be purging the Devil's own teaching from the earth and saving people from Hell. That would be a greater kindness, certainly, than saving one baby. Billions of souls saved, at the mere cost of a few million rabbis, imams and pagan priests. And that's called jihad. And it is not in the Scripture. You should be a good Samaritan. That means helping people. It doesn't mean drawing the sword and hacking your way through the evil people, for all have sinned, and therefore all are evil. Live by the sword, die by the sword - Jesus Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-10   13:13:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: Vicomte13 (#85) I have to say Christians are doing everything within the context of the Good Samaritan. They are protesting abortion; they are using whatever political pressure they have to oppose abortion; they are adopting unwanted babies and setting up pregnancy crisis centers to offering options other than abortion. I see these efforts as keeping with the Commands of Christ and the practice of the NT church. So yes, in principle I agree with you. We know of no armed Christian assaults to free other Christians being fed to wild animals in Rome and other cities. Our mission as Christians is an evangelical mission. The Gospel. Christ commanded the Gospel as our marching orders. However, I personally would risk life and limb to protect innocent or defenseless life. There is a way to do so without slashing with a sword or shooting a gun. The history of Christians standing against evil is long. It is a standing and courage not wrought of ourselves but from Christ. Bottom line, as God Wills no me, not us. redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   13:45:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#86) (Edited) So yes, in principle I agree with you. We know of no armed Christian assaults to free other Christians being fed to wild animals in Rome and other cities. Our mission as Christians is an evangelical mission. The Gospel. Christ commanded the Gospel as our marching orders. However, I personally would risk life and limb to protect innocent or defenseless life. There is a way to do so without slashing with a sword or shooting a gun. The history of Christians standing against evil is long. It is a standing and courage not wrought of ourselves but from Christ. Bottom line, as God Wills no me, not us. What right wingers like you say is so topsy turvey in their thinking. There are many that would probably take up arms or risk their lives to save a baby from being aborted but when I ask them are they willing to create a govt funded form of welfare for babies from conception till they are 18 years old - free health care, free day care, free pre K, subsidies to moms, clothing allowances everything possible to make the mother want to birth her baby - if she does not want to keep it - free federal adoptions - end overseas adoptions by the way - the anti-abortion right wing reacts in horror. I think such an approach would end a great many abortions - abortion would be legal but no reason to do it. It is just wrong headed American conservative thinking that keeps doing the same thing since the late 70s. Either that is a sign of insanity on the right or its a way the GOP grifts religous folks on a flashpoint wedge issue to keep them voting and donating to the GOP while the GOP does nothing to end abortion. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-10   15:31:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: Pericles, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, liberator (#88) I think such an approach would end a great many abortions - abortion would be legal but no reason to do it. Abortions in the West have nothing to do with finding a place for an unwanted child who is born. It has everything to do with promiscuity, convenience and career. Not many women who do not want a child will wait the 9 months to birth the child. They do not want to be bothered by pregnancy. redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-10   16:28:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, liberator (#90) I think such an approach would end a great many abortions - abortion would be legal but no reason to do it. Abortions in the West have nothing to do with finding a place for an unwanted child who is born. It has everything to do with promiscuity, convenience and career. Not many women who do not want a child will wait the 9 months to birth the child. They do not want to be bothered by pregnancy. I rather women be sluts then abort their babies. You want your cake and to eat it too. If the child to be is taken care of even the slutiest of sluts will not abort her child. Those that don't use protection - which should be encouraged to be used. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-10   22:18:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 92. #94. To: Pericles (#92) I rather women be sluts then abort their babies. You want your cake and to eat it too. If the child to be is taken care of even the slutiest of sluts will not abort her child. Those that don't use protection - which should be encouraged to be used. Without accelerants there is no fire. redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-11 01:36:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 92. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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