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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 7, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-02-07 16:29:11 by BobCeleste Keywords: None Views: 55227 Comments: 95 What does God command regarding the baby about to be aborted? Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? You decide: Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:11&12. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: BobCeleste (#0) " Does God command us to stand around and do nothing or does He command us to rescue the baby by what ever means we need to use? " A very troubling question, that many wrestle with. I look forward to reading the responses. Si vis pacem, para bellum Stoner  posted on  2015-02-07   17:48:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: BobCeleste (#0) Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:11&12. Sobering. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-07   19:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: BobCeleste (#0) The same thing regarding the innocent man about to be put to death: don't kill them, and if you do, their blood shall be upon your head. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-07   20:29:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: Vicomte13 (#3) The same thing regarding the innocent man about to be put to death: don't kill them, and if you do, their blood shall be upon your head. He's asking about witnesses to an innocent's murder, not the executioner. kenh  posted on  2015-02-07   23:18:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: kenh (#4) (Edited) He's asking about witnesses to an innocent's murder, not the executioner. Put in other terms, he's asking if the United States, today, should attack North Korea, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia as these nations murder innocents as a matter of course all the time. Looking backward in history, he is asking if the United States should have gone to war with Germany immediately in 1939, the instant they attacked Poland, and should we have gone to war with Japan in 1934, when they attacked China. Should the US Cavalry have ridden out onto the Plains and slaughtered American settlers, as they were provoking wars with and killing Indians by coming there. By extension, then, should those who know that a man in state prison who is about to be executed is innocent storm the prison and shoot the executioners? Or, more directly to the underlying intent of the question: do we have the right to violently attack abortion providers to prevent abortions, which are murders of the innocent? I provide all of the parallels because they ARE parallel. North Korea kills lots of innocent people and we know it. So does China. Should we, then - MAY we - spontaneously attack them. The resurgent wave of jihadism in Islam thinks so. Islamic jihadis believe that they, each being instruments of God, have the right, and even the duty, to violently attack whatever is wrong, as they define wrong. Violent attack to stop something inevitably involves killing, and so Muslims kill in order to attack something they believe is ungodly. The question, then, is whether Christians have the same right. The answer to that question is difficult, because different people assign different final authority to different places. Jews, for example, would answer "No", because any infliction of death by the Jewish faithful would require a full formal trial that respects all of the procedures. This is the Jewish rabbinical interpretation of the Torah. So, while Jews would be justified, by their religion, to intervene to stop a street crime, they would not be justified in attacking people doing something legal even if they thought it was immoral. The great Jewish prophets such as Jeremiah and Jonah and Amos railed against evil practices, offensive to God, and they did so inspired by the Holy Spirit. But they did so using WORDS, or symbolic acts. What they did NOT do was violently physically attack the people doing the wrong. King Ahab passed his children through the fires of Molech. Elijah and Elisha excoriated him, but they didn't directly seek to kill him, or call for a revolt. Of course, Jews are not Christians, and Jews don't have Jesus or Paul or the other Apostles to guide them. So just because the Jews' interpretation of their law would NOT justify attacking abortion clinics doesn't mean that that is the right answer for Christians. With Christians, the answer may depend on where Christians believe the final authority to answer such questions reposes. Obviously all Christians believe that it ultimately reposes on God, so the question really is "To whom does God reveal the answer to questions like this." In a formal sense, most Christians think that God has invested the Church with those answers and with the authority to pronounce them. So, that settles it for the 80% of the Christian world who are Catholics, the 10% who are Orthodox and the 5% who are Anglican/Episcopalan. All of those traditionalists, which is 95% of the world's Christians by numbers, think that God vested the Church with the authority to answer such questions, and the Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican Communion Churches all definitively answer NO. No, a man does not have the right, on his own, to go attack abortion clinics or prisons, or states. Men are bound to respect the laws. If the laws are evil, then men must not obey those particular laws. This does not, however, justify a proactively aggressive attack on the state or on people doing something, however odious, that is legal under the laws of the state. Looking at the other 5% of Christians (who form a majority in the United States), several others such as the Presbyterians, Methodists and Mormons think likewise when it comes to the Church having the authority to decide these things. Their concepts of what the Church IS differ from Catholic/Protestant/Anglican traditionalists, but their conclusion about what the Church DOES is not. And so we are left with those few percentage of Christians who do NOT believe that the Church is vested with the authority to answer such things for individuals, or those who DO, but whose Churches are small and are filled with people who are ready to attack. In the latter case, people who believe Church decides, and Church has told them to attack, they certainly feel justified in attacking. However, no such Church claims the authority to institutionally speak for God that that Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican Churches do, so even in those cases the individual Christian would have to satisfy himself that what God himself said (or is believed to have inspired) in the Bible (or elsewhere, if they believe in direct ongoing revelation) authorized the attack. And there, there is a problem, because different people who read the Bible well and thoroughly focus on different things they find there. Here is what I believe is the BEST read. In Genesis, whatever laws God may have formally given to Adam and Eve, the only ones that are formally written down are to reproduce, to eat the fruit of the garden (then, after the fall, to eat the herb of the field and bread gained by the sweat of the brow), and to not eat of a particular tree. They ate of it so they were expelled. God didn't discuss murder with them and hadn't given a law against it, at least not that's in the text, when Cain slew Abel. God did not put Cain to death for this. Rather, he marked him, and doomed him to wander. Although God did not prohibit killing in the text, it's clear that it disturbed him greatly, for in the text leading up to the Flood, we are told that the world was filled with violence, and that God repents of having made men and resolves to destroy it, by Flood. So, the Flood happened because of violence. Note that it wasn't until AFTER the Flood that God gave men animal flesh to eat. But immediately after that he warns them not to eat flesh with life's blood in it. This has been interpreted ritualistically as "pour out the blood", and indeed God does say just that to the Jews, but the text here in the Hebrew seems to speak of flesh that is still alive: don't tear parts off of living animals to eat them, don't eat flesh that is still alive. Kill it first. Immediately after that God gives the general law against killing man. He says that whoever (man or beast) sheds man's blood, by man his blood must be shed. So, God puts an onus upon man to repay bloodshed with bloodshed. And that's where the law for mankind in general ends until Jesus. The rest of the Old Testament speaks of God's specific contracts with one specific man and his family, and then with the nation he set up. For that nation, Israel, he made all sorts of laws. But those laws were for that people in that land, a land that God was ruling DIRECTLY as King. God didn't give the laws of Israel to all of mankind. The laws for all of mankind were given to Noah, and there are not many of them. The law about killing is simply: don't. Don't, but if somebody does, shed his blood in return. The Jews were given many laws. Picking and choosing among them to decide which of them applies too everybody is a sterile exercise: NONE of them do. It was a contract: DO ALL THIS, and you get a stable farm in Israel. That's it. And it was only for the circumcised descendants of Abraham,. Isaac and Jacob and their adoptees. Nothing more. Trying to pick through the New Testament ends up being shunted back to references in the Old Testament a lot, which would seem to bring those provisions forward, but Jesus generally made the law as he intended it pretty clear. To know what WE are bound to, all we need to do is read Jesus. It's particularly important to read the last page of the Bible for there, in Revelation, Jesus twice gives lists of deeds that will cause a man to fail final judgment and be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and murder appears on both lists. "Murder" doesn't mean what it means in our Anglo-Saxon law. This is important. To us, murder is an UNLAWFUL killing. But to the Scripture, a murder is an INTENTIONAL killing. Note well that in the Torah, when executions for committing crimes against God are revealed, God says that the criminal is to be judged and then taken outside of the camp and MURDERED by the people - with stones, or hanging, or whatever. In the Scriptures, the word God uses to describe a LAWFUL execution after a trial is MURDER. We don't execute somebody in the electric chair for having committed murder. We MURDER the murderer in the electric chair. That is the lexicon that God uses. Now, most people upon hearing that don't like it very much. They do not like to think that soldiers in the field doing their "duty", or the state executioners, are committing MURDER. But they are. This is a distressing discovery, when one reads on the last page of the Bible, twice, that murderers do not enter into the city of God but are thrown into the lake of fire. It calls into question the ability to execute people for crimes ("Let he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone" is Jesus' standard for executions). It calls into question the ability to make war at all. At this point, most people prefer to recede into the traditions of their Churches, because the Churches have fabricated Just War doctrines, to allow organized mass murder for reasons of state (war). Those without organizations who read the Bible directly have frequently come to the conclusion that even that is not allowed. Quakers and Shakers and Brethren and others are pacifists BECAUSE the easiest straight read of the Bible is that that's what God asks us to be. Others read the text differently, though generally with a mindset that God CAN'T have asked that, because that would mean that OTHER things we value, such as our states and political control, would not be attainable. Generally speaking such people then burrow into the Old Testament, where God directs the killing of many for reasons of state. They reason that Christians are not the Chosen People, so Christians can affirmatively do all of those things (though they say that Christians are not at the same time BOUND by all of the restrictions of the texts that say that they CAN'T do something - Christians see THOSE as having been "Just for the Jews", but executing witches, or tithing? Well, that's for everybody, that's for us. It's a convenient, self-serving, and altogether dishonest way to read the text. And in that list of things that'll get you damned, lying is right alongside of murder as something that'll take you to the Lake of Fire. Jesus at the Last Supper reminded his disciples that he'd sent them out before without money or weapons, and they had not been molested. But now that he was leaving, he told them they'd need to buy swords. Now, the Zealot among them, exulted at the authority to carry weapons again: HERE ARE TWO SWORDS! (YAY! We get to FIGHT!). But Jesus cut them off curtly: ENOUGH! He said. In other words, NO, I am not authorizing you to take up the sword. I'm authorizing you to have a sword for you own defense. And within an hour or two, when the band came to arrest Jesus in the Garden, Peter drew a sword and struck off a man's ear. Jesus told him to put away his sword, that he who takes up the sword perishes by it ("Live by the sword, die by the sword.") Any Christian who seeks to find solace for a profession of arms in the text of the Bible will find it to be very unappetizing gruel indeed. He will have better luck in the traditions of the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian,. Baptist, Mormon, and other Churches (not the Quakers or the Jehovah's Witnesses), who have highly refined theories of justification regarding force. Those theories are comforting for people who want to make a profession of arms. They don't follow the Bible really - they spend a lot of time dwelling in the Old Testament, but that seems to be good enough for people who want the answer to be that they can take up arms and sometimes kill other people and NOT be murderers destined for the fire. On a straight read of Scripture, especially of Genesis, Jesus and Revelation, I think they have a lot more to worry about than they believe. And that's where I come down on the matter of physically attacking abortionists. It ends up being the same "No" that the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons and others come down on: it's not authorized by God. But the reasoning is different. They think that's because the state is imbued with power to decide such things. I don't think God imbued states with the power to kill. The states cannot make abortion licit. It's murder. The problem is that you have to commit murder to prevent the murder, and God never authorized that. Jesus authorized apostles carrying swords to defend themselves as individuals from attacks, presumably from individuals. But against social evils such as war and abortion, Jesus left us with the swords of our mouths, and NOT the physical sword. If we would kill an abortionist because he's a murderer, we had best remember the standard: Let he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone. And we had best realize that the state is going to arrest us and cage us, and perhaps kill us for this crome of murder - that it IS murder under God's law (just as the abortion is). I don't see it justified Biblically. I do see that vengeance is reserved by God to himself alone. I think that men who murder others over abortion are arrogant. They have arrogated themselves the right to be judge, jury and executioner, because they have elevated an inchoate right of defense into an authorization for attacking others who are doing something bad. Killing somebody is not the worst crime in the Bible. It's in the same league as serious sexual sin, lying and idolatry. Biblically, life goes on after death, so the dead baby has not been completely destroyed. God knows who did it, and God has said that murderers are thrown into the Lake of Fire. So no, WE are not authorized to kill abortionists. But yes, all abortionists, and all women who procure abortions, are going to fail judgment as murders and be thrown into the flames, unless God forgives them. THAT much is clear. So, to answer the original question again: the baby about to be killed will go to God innocent and live happily ever after. The abortionist and the mother, and the nurse and the financier and the front office staff - everybody - they will descend into Gehenna where they will pay for their sins. They actual murderers: the abortion doctor and the mother, have committed a sin that cannot be paid, and that will get them cast into the lake of fire unless they stop, repent it, and cease to support such things. So, the baby lives, the doctor and the mother dies in the flames of hell. And the bystander? God gave no clear directions. He can certainly intervene with words. If he intervenes with violence, the state will punish him. Whether God rewards or punishes him is up to God. The range of possible outcomes for him are from being rewarded as a faithful servant to being thrown into the lake of fire along with the woman and the abortionist, for "Vengeance is mine alone." To get into the position to do anything about an abortion in progress, one must undertake several steps. Better be sure that one of them is being free of sin, for if you cast stones to murder while in your own sins, you're in trouble deep. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-08   10:05:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: Vicomte13 (#5) So, to answer the original question again: the baby about to be killed will go to God innocent and live happily ever after. The abortionist and the mother, and the nurse and the financier and the front office staff - everybody - they will descend into Gehenna where they will pay for their sins. They actual murderers: the abortion doctor and the mother, have committed a sin that cannot be paid, and that will get them cast into the lake of fire unless they stop, repent it, and cease to support such things. So, the baby lives, the doctor and the mother dies in the flames of hell. This may be personally satisfying but it's not Scriptural. First, we don't know what the destination of the unborn will be. We have hope, but the closest Scripture comes to answering this is David's son. Second, if any of the people involved in the abortion come to faith in Jesus Christ their sins are forgiven and they are saved. Third, there is no purgatory and there never was. Sheol was divided into two parts Abraham's Bosom also known as Paradise and Hades. Those condemned waiting final judgement are in Hades. Those that were in Paradise are now in Heaven with Jesus. wmfights  posted on  2015-02-08   17:38:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: wmfights (#6) This may be personally satisfying but it's not Scriptural. First, we don't know what the destination of the unborn will be. We have hope, but the closest Scripture comes to answering this is David's son. Second, if any of the people involved in the abortion come to faith in Jesus Christ their sins are forgiven and they are saved. Third, there is no purgatory and there never was. Sheol was divided into two parts Abraham's Bosom also known as Paradise and Hades. Those condemned waiting final judgement are in Hades. Those that were in Paradise are now in Heaven with Jesus. What you wrote is traditional and satisfying, but it is not Scripture. In Scripture, in the Old Testament, there is only Sheol. Sheol is where the spirits of the dead go. Their bodies fall into powder. That the spirit continues in Sheol is made clear by the spirit of Samuel, called up by the witch of Endor to speak with Saul. But that is as far as the Old Testament goes. In Greek, Sheol is translated as Hades. Hades is not "Hell". Hell appears nowhere in the Bible. It is a Scandinavian word. Hades and Sheol are the same thing: the place of the dead. Hell has been added in English translation, but it does not exist in either the Greek or the Hebrew. It's a grafted-on pagan word and pagan idea. The division of the afterlife into Heaven and Hell appears nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures. It is the belief of the Norse, the Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons and the Germanic tribes that overran everything. It was grafted into the English, as parallel words, but the words are not parallel and the ideas are wrong. What Scripture tells us, in the Greek, and what the contemporary Hebrew tells us also, is that the dead all descend into Hades, and Hades is divided into two broad parts: Gan Eden, which is Paradise in Greek, and Gehenna, which is the Hebrew purgatory. There is a black chasm between the two. Abraham's Bosom is exclusively for the descendants of Abraham, which Gentiles are not. It is part of Gan Eden, but it is not the place to which those who aren't heirs of his body go. Jesus tells us important things about Gehenna: it's parched and fiery, always. It's a prison. But he ALSO tells us that it can be temporal. He warns that his Father will put the unforgiving there UNTIL the last penny of debt is paid. UNTIL is a limitative word. It is NOT the word "FOREVER". Jesus spoke of greater and lesser punishments for sin. Jewish Gehenna is a place to which the spirits of those who die with sins descend. They descend to different levels, depending on their degree of sin, and there, they pay for their sins. Jesus tells Christians how to avoid Gehenna: stop sinning, and forgive others their sins against you. If you won't forgive, then you'll be held liable for your sins and you'll have to repay also, in Gehenna. This is actually pretty clear in Scripture. Christians have garbled it by putting pagan traditions on top of it, but Scripture is clear. What is also clear is that men never go to Heaven. Never ever. Heaven is the word "Sky" in both Hebrew and Greek. God does indeed live in the sky. And the City of God is in the Sky. Read Revelation again, carefully: the world is destroyed and the City comes OUT of the sky down TO the Earth. Then the dead are all resurrected, from Gan Eden/Paradise and Gehenna, and THEN each is judged. Those who pass judgement walk through the gates into the City, which is on earth, the new earth. Those who fail judgment are thrown into the Lake of Fire and utterly destroyed: the second death. The first death separated body and spirit. The second death takes body and spirit together into the fire. It does not say whether or not the second death means that both are utterly destroyed and gone - body and spirit both - what one would EXPECT would happen in fire, or whether they will survive, burning, for eternity. Lots of Christian tradition says the latter, but that's all made up. The Bible says that about the ANGELS that are thrown into the fire, but they were beings of pure spirit to begin with. It doesn't say that humans who are thrown into the fire LIVE in the fire. It says that they die again in the fire. The better read is that they are utterly destroyed, gone, body and spirit. But if one wants to hold out the possibility that both live on, one can. However, the notion that anybody goes to Heaven - to Asgard in the sky and lives in Valhalla- well, the pagans thought that, and kept thinking it when they became Christians, and that became the tradition, but it's not what the Bible says at all. The City of God comes to earth. Men do not fly off to live in the sky at the end. Hades/Sheol is not "Hell". It's neither the Lake of Fire nor Gehenna. Gehenna is purgatorial, a prison where the dead with sins are imprisoned UNTIL THE LAST PENNY IS PAID, if they are unforgiving. That's what Scripture actually SAYS, in the Greek and Hebrew. Your traditions say differently, and some of them are quite old. They're widely believed, as is the absurd notion that the soul, upon death, flies off to "heaven" or "hell". But the soul, in the Hebrew, is the unity of body and spirit - the soul ceases to exist at death, and the body falls apart. It is the spirit that goes down into Sheol, and into Gan Eden or Gehenna, and if Gehenna, perhaps to Gan Eden, once the debt of sin of the unforgiving is paid. Nobody goes to Hell, and nobody goes to Heaven, in the Bible, because the former place does not exist in Scripture, and the latter is just the sky, and men don't go off to live in the sky. They go down, to live in Sheol, and then they rise and walk into the City, which is on earth. Scripturally speaking. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-08   19:28:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: BobCeleste, Stoner, redleghunter, Vicomte13, kenh, wmfights (#0) BobCeleste Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament so he does not command anything for us to do. And vengeance will be for the Lord. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-08   19:37:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: Pericles (#8) Abortion isn't mentioned as such, but it doesn't need to be. From Genesis forward, lives in Scripture are dated from conception. Read carefully: Adam begot Cain. Not "Eve gave birth to Cain". Lives are measured from the FATHER'S begetting. That only occurs as the result of intercourse at the beginning of the pregnancy. The FATHER begets when his seed joins with the woman's seed to create a new person. As Scripture progresses, we come to the commandment in the Torah that if men fight and strike a pregnant woman such that they cause the baby to suddenly be born, if there's no harm the one who struck has to pay the husband for striking his wife, but if there IS harm, then life for life, etc. Note well, the distinction is not simply about the mother being struck, the subject is the baby being born prematurely. If two men fighting and one strikes a pregnant woman in his rage (remember, SHE'S not fighting, he is fighting another man) if the baby is born prematurely and dies, the man who struck her is to be put to death. Likewise if she dies in childbirth. Inducing a premature birth is not what we would call "abortion", but it carries the death penalty in the Torah if the baby is killed, and it carries wound for wound body damage if the baby is crippled. And then we have several moments in the Old Testament in which God speaks of knowing the man in the womb. And of course, Jesus comes to be when he is begotten by the Holy Spirit, not when he is born. One baby in his mother's womb leapt with joy at the presence of Jesus in his mother's womb. Babies in the womb are PEOPLE in the Scripture, And that means that there's no SPECIAL law for them, Kill a baby in the womb, and you have committed a murder, no different than if you lie in wait and stab a man. Abortion isn't separately mentioned because it's just murder, same as any other murder. Murder is extensively mentioned in Scripture, and Jesus said that murderers are thrown into the lake of fire at judgment. Abortion is murder, tout court. Nothing more to say. So much so, that the Bible doesn't elaborate. Doesn't NEED to. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-08   20:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: Vicomte13 (#9) Abortion isn't mentioned as such, but it doesn't need to be. Then how can Protestants be against it, Sola Scriptura and all that? Pericles  posted on  2015-02-08   20:05:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Pericles (#10) Then how can Protestants be against it, Sola Scriptura and all that? Because abortion is just another name for murder. The Bible doesn't say "you shall not leap out of an alley to slit the throat of a 73-year-old woman" either, for the same reason. God forgives people from killing people. Pure and simple. He doesn't make a bunch of rules about who you can kill and who you can't. In the Bible, life begins at begetting and ends with the last breath. Killing at any point on that progression is murder. "Abortion" is our name for a specific sort of killing. God didn't say: "Thou shall not drown housewives", but one if there's a movement afoot to drown housewives and it gains a name "Blubwifing", the Bible doesn't have to say "No Blubwifing" for it to be prohibited. Don't kill people suffices to cover it all. Sola Scriptura does contain the "no murder" clause, and the "begotten by father" terms, and the "cause a premature birth that kills the baby and be put to death clause. And that's quite a bit of Scriptura for the position. The Catholic and Orthodox position is also Scriptural. Alas, there are many Protestant Churches now that DON'T oppose abortion anymore, because THEY say what you said "It's not in the Bible, so it's ok". THOSE Protestants are either illiterate and don't know better, or they're liars who do know better. But the Protestants who oppose abortion do it for the same reason Orthodox and Catholics do: it's murder, clearly, Biblically and logically both. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-08   20:17:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Vicomte13 (#11) Because abortion is just another name for murder. No, it is not. The human body aborts fetuses all the time. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-08   20:56:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: Stoner (#1) A very troubling question, that many wrestle with. I look forward to reading the responses. I agree, and me too. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-08   21:15:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: redleghunter (#2) Sobering. It is, isn't it. I have now been pondering it for a couple of days. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-08   21:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: Vicomte13 (#3) The same thing regarding the innocent man about to be put to death: Yes, but a man can fight back, a man can run, hide, and call for help, the baby in the womb is trapped with no where to run, no where to hide and no one it seems to rescue little him or her. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-08   21:19:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: Pericles (#8) Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament Please explain how Leviticus 20:1-5 is not dealing with abortion. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-08   21:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: Pericles, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, liberator (#10) Then how can Protestants be against it, Sola Scriptura and all that? Read Vic's post again. He, uncharacteristically, succinctly just told you why. Life begins at begetting that is conception throughout the OT. Terminating, murdering defenseless life was also forbidden throughout scriptures. No shedding of blood. That is murder. It's there. Read his post again. He wasn't speaking Greek. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-08   22:14:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: Vicomte13, Pericles, redleghunter, GarySpFc, liberator (#11) Alas, there are many Protestant Churches now that DON'T oppose abortion anymore, because THEY say what you said "It's not in the Bible, so it's ok". THOSE Protestants are either illiterate and don't know better, or they're liars who do know better. Why do you insist on spelling it incorrectly? Its Protest-ants. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-02-08   22:22:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, liberator, Murron, Vicomte13 (#12) No, it is not. The human body aborts fetuses all the time. You mean miscarriages. Abortion is a premeditated action with accomplices. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-08   22:36:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: SOSO (#18) Why do you insist on spelling it incorrectly? Its Protest-ants. Probably because most Protestants don't refer to that term. Correctly put it would be mostly Reformed, Lutherans and Evangelicals. I mean Roman Catholics don't go around calling themselves "papists." :) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-08   22:39:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: redleghunter (#20) I mean Roman Catholics don't go around calling themselves "papists." :) True, the Protest-ants call them that. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-02-08   22:42:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: BobCeleste (#16) (Edited) Please explain how Leviticus 20:1-5 is not dealing with abortion. It is sacrificing a child born to a foreign God. God had no problem accepting a child sacrificed to him. "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT) Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   0:34:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, liberator (#17) (Edited) The Old Testament says nothing of t he kind. the only place I know from the ancient world where abortion was expressly prohibited was the pagan Greek Hippocratic Oath. Abortion was probably not mentioned in the Old Testament because the Hebrews were primitive goat herders who had no ability to induce medical abortions so it never occurred to them is best I can gather. This is the original version of the Hippocratic Oath: HIPPOCRATIC OATH: CLASSICAL VERSION I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art—if they desire to learn it—without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else. I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work. Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves. What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about. If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot. —Translation from the Greek by Ludwig Edelstein. From The Hippocratic Oath: Text, Translation, and Interpretation, by Ludwig Edelstein. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1943. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/hippocratic-oath- today.html Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   0:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: SOSO (#18) Why do you insist on spelling it incorrectly? Its Protest-ants. Because I don't see what "Protest-ants" is trying to get at? That they're ants? Well, I don't see it that way. I think Luther had a lot of good points. I agree with all but about three of his theses. Those abuses were real, and if he hadn't done what he did, the Church would not have had the impetus to reform. That was then. Today, I think that Protestant scholars have done much more extensive work than that Catholics at really decorticating the Scriptures so that their meaning and implications are clear. The Catholics have come late to the party. Now, I think that when Scripture is really delved into, that the Catholic doctrines are mostly upheld, but it wasn't the Catholics who got us to such a deep understanding of Scripture. Left alone, the Catholics would have continued to discourage reading them. It took the Protestant push to get the Catholics to finally LOOK at the treasure trove that is Scripture. Ants? No. They're not ants. The Quakers in particular were utterly admirable people, and truer as a whole to the Gospels than any other religious institution has been. In terms of respecting God's commandment against violence, the Quakers exceed the Catholics. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   0:54:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: Pericles (#12) Because abortion is just another name for murder. No, it is not. The human body aborts fetuses all the time. When the human body does it, that is the hand of God. When a human hand takes the life of another, that is murder. God kills everybody, in time. But God forbids human beings doing it, ever. Are you really asserting that abortion is not murder? Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   0:56:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Vicomte13 (#25) (Edited) Are you really asserting that abortion is not murder? Under some cases it is not murder. I am not a totalist and neither is the Catholic Church per the ethical principle called "double effect." Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   1:08:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Pericles, ALL (#8) The fact that the word "abortion" does not appear in the Bible does not mean God is silent on the subject. Rather, one must probe the Scripture in deeper and broader context to discern His will regarding this matter. One doesn't find "heroin, LSD, crack, arson, bombing, machine-gunning, extortion, torture, hijacking or child abuse" mentioned either, but it is not difficult to for Christians to decide they are not part of God’s will. The basic question remains, does God consider the unborn to be a person? If the answer is "no," then perhaps we have the right to dispose of the unborn as an unwanted appendix or tumor. If the answer is "yes," then we must treat the unborn with all the love and concern due another person that God requires of Christians. How can we love God and not love our unborn brother or sister whom God has stated He loved from before the foundation of the world? “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-09   2:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: Vicomte13 (#25) God kills everybody What verse is that found in? A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-09   6:56:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: redleghunter (#17) He, uncharacteristically, succinctly just told you why. ZING! LOL Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   8:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: A K A Stone (#28) What verse is that found in? "Not a sparrow falls..." - Jesus Fall, as in die. Sparrows do not die until the Father wills it. And you are more important than a sparrow. More generally, "The wages of sin is death", and "All men have sinned." Who makes it such that the wages of sin is death? God. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   8:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: Pericles (#26) Under some cases it is not murder. Legalism. The only exception in Catholic doctrine is to save the life of the mother from imminent death. In that one case it is a case of self- defense. And in the modern medical world, that case barely exists. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-02-09   8:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Pericles, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#23) Abortion was probably not mentioned in the Old Testament because the Hebrews were primitive goat herders who had no ability to induce medical abortions so it never occurred to them is best I can gather. You missed the points the other gentlemen pinged already provided. The TaNaKh clearly shows that life begins at begetting. The biblical genealogies describe a father's begets as the start of life for the offspring. Exodus references given by Vic and Gary showed us the unborn child if killed in a struggle required the same blood for blood punishment...execution. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   9:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: Vicomte13 (#29) Thought you would like that. And I did it with such class:) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " (Romans 1:16-17) redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-09   9:05:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#32) Exodus references given by Vic and Gary showed us the unborn child if killed in a struggle required the same blood for blood punishment...execution. No, it required a fine only and under specific circumstances would that fine apply - the woman somehow got in the middle of the fight. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   9:26:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: Pericles (#22) you have completely missed the meaning of the word "seed". You are also 100% wrong, but, I have ehard the same thing numerous times by women who have multiple abortions, men who have brought their daughters, wife or girl friend for an abortion, and most of all from those sick, vicious, hell bent that do abortions. But at least, unlike most of the above mentioned, you seem to acknowledge the one God. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:14:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: BobCeleste (#35) I am against abortions but your arguments are failures. Your kind of reasoning has not ended abortions at all is what I am getting at. If you can't show it in the Bible (you can clearly show where being gay is wrong for example) unless you are a Biblical scholar then no one will take it as authoritative. You need to up your game. Pericles  posted on  2015-02-09   10:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: Vicomte13 (#31) And in the modern medical world, that case barely exists. I think it is called a tubal something or other and it means the baby is developing outside of the womb an if not removed will kill both mother and baby. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:16:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: A K A Stone (#28) God kills everybody What verse is that found in? I believe that Roman Catholic theology takes that from when Jesus is warning people who to fear; But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. Luke 12:5 As is so often the case, most who study what God said, in His book, the Bible, disagree with the RC position. And from 1 Samuel chapter 15, the first few verses. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:23:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: GarySpFC (#27) From 8, Abortion is not mentioned in the Old or New Testament so he does not command anything for us to do. Gary, I have heard the same thing numerous times by women who have multiple abortions, men who have brought their daughters, wife or girl friend for an abortion, and most of all from those sick, vicious, hell bent that do abortions. But at least Pericles, unlike most of the above mentioned, seems to acknowledge the one God. He or she is worthy of our prayers for his or her salvation. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:28:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: kenh (#4) He's asking about witnesses to an innocent's murder, not the executioner. How would you separate the executioner from those who stand by and allow it to happen without interfering? BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:30:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: All (#0) Who does God hold most responsible for an abortion? Leviticus 20:1-5 I'm going to do this thought as if it were a letter to a young girl, a young girl who has had an abortion. It makes no difference what I call her, and it makes no difference how many abortions she has had, or even her age, she could be 16, 26 or even 60 or more. I'm going to call her Rachael. Dear Rachael, I know you have had an abortion and I know that you know that what you did is wrong. How you got pregnant is not relevant, what is relevant is that you allowed the life of the little baby in your womb to be ended. Rachael, I also know that you think that Christ hates you for what you did and that He could never forgive you. Two things my little one, first Christ does not hate you and second He can't wait to forgive you, but, He is holy and as such must maintain His rules, and His rule is that you must respond to His persistent, through the Holy Ghost, call for you to ask to be forgiven. (Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any *man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me. * the Greek word translated man is "tis" it would be better translated "whomever" for it is not limited to man, but all of mankind, male and female, unlike the Hebrew "'iysh" word used in Leviticus 20:1-5 which means man, not mankind, not man and women but only man, for the Hebrew word for man is "adam".) Rachael, as you will see, as we go through the most important prohibition of abortion, by God Almighty, it is the guy who got you pregnant that God commands to be killed for allowing you to abort his seed, it is not you God is furious with, it is the man whose sperm joined with your egg and became his seed. Now, why you ask does God hold the baby's father more responsible for the baby's death than you? It is because he is, in the original Hebrew, adam and you are 'ishshah. > 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying: 2 "Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 And I will set My face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile My sanctuary, and to profane My holy name." 4 "And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not, 5 then I will set My face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people." Leviticus 20:1-5 ACP/KJV Now, let's look at some very key words. Let us first look at what God has to say about abortion and the penalty for the father that allows his child in the womb to be slaughtered. Yes, the father of the baby, for it is, as you will see, the father God commands to be stoned to death for the abortion, the murder of his seed. Verse one: " And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying;" Rachael, the speaker is God Almighty Himself, Moses is but the recording secretary, Rachael, this is not Moses speaking. It is God Almighty Himself speaking. Verse two: "Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones." God tells Moses to relay to the People of God that none is to offer his seed to the devil. The word translated "seed" is, in the ancient Hebrew, zera`, pronounced zeh'-rah. It means, seed; figuratively, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity: child, fruitful, seed(-time), sowing- time. In other words seed means sperm both before and after fertilizing the women's egg. It also means the baby both before and after leaving the womb. So, in verse two and after the word seed means the baby from the instant of conception and for sperm before. At the end of verse two God dictates the punishment for men who allow the abortion of their seed, death by stoning. Verse three: "And I will set My face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile My sanctuary, and to profane My holy name." In verse three the word Sanctuary is miqdash, pronounced mik-dawsh' or miqqdash in Exodus 15:17) {pronounced mik-ked-awsh'}; it is a consecrated thing or place, especially, a palace, sanctuary (whether of Jehovah or of idols) or asylum:--chapel, hallowed part, holy place, sanctuary. In other words anywhere where God is or dwells or visits is His sanctuary. God as the creator of the earth, the universe(s) the heavens, all things, owns everywhere and everything, so His sanctuary is everywhere, even the lake of fire to come and hell now are God's creation and therfore He rules over them as well. God does not allow abortion, which is the offering of the baby in the womb to satan as a little human blood sacrifice, no where in all of His creation. Verse four and five: 4 "And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: 5 Then I will set My face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people." These two verses make it clear that God not only curses and condemns, to death, the man who allows his baby to be aborted, but the society that does not punish the man who allowed the baby he fathered to be aborted. Yes Rachael, what you did is wrong, what you did was take your baby to a man or woman who is a high priest or priestess of the devil and you allowed that person to murder your baby, to offer little him or her to the devil as a little human blood sacrifice, and yes God is mad at you, but He is more than willing to forgive you. But, the man who fathered the baby, you had aborted, he is another story. Oh sure he can be saved, but God holds men to a much, much higher standard. Now, Rachael, you must be wondering why God holds the man to a higher standard and declares a more sever punishment for the man who got you pregnant than you, you who brought the baby to be aborted. The answer my dear is simple, he is adam and you are 'ishshah. It goes back some 6,450 years, back to the time Adam and Eve sinned and got evicted from the Garden of Eden. Unto the 'ishshah God said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Rachael, you will find that in verse 16 of Genesis chapter 3. What God is saying is that from that time forward all 'ishshahs, all women, will have pain in childbirth, but additionally, God further said that a woman's desire would be to obey her husband and serve him. Now Rachael, like it or not, God has made women subservient to men, it is not arguable, it is a simple fact of life. As such, the man is held more responsible than the woman. It is kind of like this, when you were a little girl, say four years old, and if your mom or dad told you to move a glass fish bowl that was to heavy for you to move and you dropped it and it broke, killing the fish and getting water and broken glass all over the floor, whose fault was it? Yours or your mom or dad who ordered you to move the fish bowl? It would of course be the fault of the parent that told you to do it. Why? Because in the Ten Commandments of God it says "Honor thy father and thy mother" And just as God has commanded you to obey your mom and dad when you were little, so has He ordered you to obey your husband when you are married. "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord:" 1 Peter 3:5&6 But, you say, "Pastor Bob, I was not married to the man (men) that got me pregnant to the baby(s) I aborted." Rachael, in the laws of man you weren't, but in God's eyes you were. For you see, in God's eyes, a man and a woman are married when they have sexual intercourse, when they, in the words of the bible, "know" each other. That word "know" is translated from the Hebrew word "yada". "And Adam {'adam} knew {yada`} Eve his wife {'ishshah}; and she conceived , and bare Cain." So you see Rachael, yes you messed up, you messed up, you messed up big time when you killed that baby, but Rachael it is not the unpardonable sin and yes God is willing to forgive you. Email me if you want to know how to approach God for forgiveness, for forgiveness is what He sent His Son to earth for. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him (Jesus) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 ACP/KJV BobCeleste  posted on  2015-02-09   10:33:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (42 - 95) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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