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Title: How can libertarians overcome public distrust and indifference to successfully sell liberty?
Source: nolanchart.com
URL Source: https://www.nolanchart.com/can-libe ... ence-successfully-sell-liberty
Published: Feb 1, 2015
Author: Walt Thiessen
Post Date: 2015-02-02 07:40:07 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 36545
Comments: 120

I wrote this article for libertarian activists. A Facebook conversation with gun-rights activist Darren Wolfe led me to write it. In our exchange, we both concluded that too many libertarians do not understand two key points:

  1. Liberty needs to be sold.
  2. You need to know HOW to sell liberty if you want to draw more people into the libertarian movement.

Selling liberty is a huge concept that I can’t realistically cover in one article. There are so many facets to it. In this article, I will limit myself to presenting two facets only, and even they will necessarily be long- winded presentations. My plan by the time I finish is to give you both an essay outlining the enormity of the problem and a set of steps you can apply RIGHT AWAY to become a more effective libertarian activist.

I will show why conventional approaches typically pursued by libertarian activists to winning hearts and minds have not worked for libertarians, despite being repeatedly applied for nearly 50 years. Then I will outline a sales process drawn directly from the world of marketing that can be applied to political discourse with some thought and more importantly with some creativity to gain real headway within the extremely difficult environment of political activism.

Jim Lewis: The First Selling Libertarian

Most libertarians have never heard of the first libertarian advocate selling liberty. Even many current L.P. leaders and leading party members would be hard-pressed to name the Libertarian Party’s 1984 Vice- Presidential candidate. His name was Jim Lewis, and he ran that year with presidential candidate David Bergland.

The same is true for small “L” libertarians who long ago decided that the L.P. isn’t for them. Yes, I understand that all libertarians are not also Libertarian Party supporters. Far from it! But Jim Lewis’s argument applies to all libertarian activists, regardless of their political alliances.

I knew Jim because he came from Connecticut, where I also lived at the time (and to which I have recently returned). Jim was older than me (I was in my early 20s, he was in his early 50s), but he was still quite young and energetic.

Jim didn’t have a magnetic personality or anything like that, but he knew how to speak well and present his ideas. He passionately peddled the selling of liberty.

I cannot say that he made particularly deep or insightful arguments. Rather, he relied on his passion to carry the day. I would even go so far as to say that he wasn’t a very good salesman(!). But there is no doubt that he was absolutely convinced that liberty needs to be sold, and he was absolutely correct about that.

Jim’s campaign for V.P. focused on just this one, key point: that liberty must be sold. It was as if he really wasn’t running for Vice- President of the United States, but rather was running to try to convince libertarian activists to change their approach for spreading the ideas of liberty. This was even more of a radical notion then than it is now, and while he did win the nomination that year, I think it’s fair to say that the members of his own party didn’t strongly embrace what he advocated. To the contrary, I don’t think many of them even understood it. He ran for his party’s nomination for President in 1988, but finished third behind Ron Paul and Russell Means.

The essence of his platform was that liberty was neither properly understood by the general public nor presented by its supporters in a manner that the public could embrace, and that it was up to libertarians to make both a factual and an emotional appeal simultaneously. I wish I had a copy of some of his remarks made at some point or other, but I do not, so I cannot share them with you.

Jim also chose to be a tax evader, and sadly the IRS caught up with him a few years later because of his semi-public notoriety as a political candidate. They convicted and sentenced him to three years in prison, and when he emerged from that cold and dismal existence, he came out a shell of a man. He died a few years later in 1997. I have no doubt that prison shortened his life. It’s noteworthy that almost as many Connecticut-based L.P. supporters as his family members attended his funeral.

Nevertheless, I still remember him standing at the podium before all that happened in his conservative black suit and tie with a smile on his face declaring the need to sell liberty with the enthusiasm of Anthony Robbins. I hope he would approve of what I attempt to write today to expand upon his favorite topic.

Why negative campaigning doesn’t work for libertarians

For 40-50 years, libertarians both inside and outside the L.P. attempted to emulate the two major parties by using fear and criticism to gain attention. This works to a degree for major party candidates, as anyone who has ever followed an election knows. Mudslinging is a time-honored tradition in both major parties. However, they may not understand WHY it works so well for them and why it cannot similarly work for libertarians.

Republicans and Democrats can get away with campaigns based on fear, personal attacks, and all other forms of negativity because they have something that libertarians do not have: an established base that makes up a significant portion of the population and that will vote for them NO MATTER WHAT.

Liberals and Conservatives both have bases that amount to around one- quarter to one-third of the electorate nationwide each. The remaining 40% or so are self-described independent, but even among this group they typically vote with one camp or the other. Only around 10% of the overall electorate routinely decide based upon who they believe the best candidate is from election to election regardless of that candidate’s political association.

With an electorate so firmly ensconced in their affiliation with two broad philosophical camps, the nominated candidates can be assured of getting substantial support from those voters that typically vote with their own camp. As long as they carry out strong get-out-the-vote efforts and don’t say anything to significantly alienate their own supporters, those supporters can be counted on to vote for them in a general election … even if they don’t agree with the candidate philosophically on all points.

The Tea Parties attempted to flip this situation upside down by standing firm against certain candidates in their parties, with some success. However, we must also note that these instances are newsworthy exceptions, and the rule still holds. In fact, in the most recent off-term elections in 2014, establishment Mainstream Republicans surprised many political analysts when they outperformed Tea Party Republicans at the polls. Why? Because people who tend to vote Republican (or Democratic) continue to tend to vote Republican (or Democratic) even when their party’s candidate isn’t an ideal philosophical match.

Small “L” libertarians, similar to their L.P. counterparts who think that third parties can establish that kind of base using negative campaigning combined with vaguely positive cliches, have long (and wrongly) concluded that all they have to do is to become active members of those two major parties and get nominated by them, and they’ll be able to take over. However, while this might be theoretically possible, in practice it’s quite a dicey proposition. In races where the two major parties are on relative parity, it’s extremely difficult to win either party’s nomination as a radical. In those states and in those instances, it’s the moderate candidates who have held extensive lower offices who have the greatest chance of being nominated by their parties. The most they can usually hope for is to win in a primary in a district where the party never loses, thereby giving them the election. That’s what they work for.

But what really kills this approach is the idea that before they even gain nomination, they try to win by focusing on negatives the way that their party leaders do. They’re wrong because they make the same fundamental mistake that many small business owners make. They assume that everyone wants what they have to sell.

More importantly, they assume that if they just get negative enough to show the people in their party whom they want to win over just how wrong the party’s typical approach has been that they’ll somehow “see the light”, admit that they’ve been wrong, change their views, and begin to support libertarian candidates who will now lead them to victory in November.

There’s even a faction that believes that they don’t have to win anyone over. They just have to show up in greater numbers than the party faithful and force their way in.

Hollow laugh! This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Senator Rand Paul, for instance, understands that he can’t behave as a bull in a china shop. Oh sure, it’s possible to get some candidates nominated, and perhaps even win an election or two, but if you want any staying power, you have to play the political game THEIR way, which means sacrificing your own philosophical beliefs in many cases in order to gain mainstream support within your own party.

Even then, there is always distrust and doubt among the party faithful, and thus Rand finds himself in a constant, ongoing battle to get his own party to believe that he’s actually one of them. I do give him credit. He has managed to make significant in-roads, and he is considered to be one of many front-runners for his party’s nomination for President in 2016. However, at what cost? How much of his belief system has he had to sacrifice in order to get this far? He has probably sacrificed a lot more than even he himself realizes.

For the average small “L” libertarian activist, the prospects are even worse using negativity. Thus, when I see libertarian activists attempting to play the negativity card over and over again, while getting nowhere in the process, I cringe and shake my head at the insanity of it all. Specifically, I mean “insanity” as defined by people in Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step groups. Insanity to them is repeating the same failed behavior over and over again, each time hoping for and expecting a different result. (Think “abstinence” for example.)

All of the top libertarian bloggers that I know thus put out a stream of negatively-based posts designed to scare or disgust mainstream people into switching their allegiance to the libertarian movement by showing just how horrible big government truly is. The idea is that the mainstream approach is so abhorrent that if you make it clear just how abhorrent that side’s views are, you’ll win supporters by default. Even though the approach has failed and continues fail on a monumental scale, its adherents stay the course. I suspect that they’ve reached the point where they don’t even care any more about such a fine point. They have followers. They have readers. They have a peanut gallery willing to share and parrot whatever they say. What a great ego boost it must be for them!

But does anything fundamentally change in the overall political landscape? No. Clearly no.

How to sell liberty

Now that I’ve laid out a rather simple (some might say simplistic) case showing that negative activism hasn’t worked, it’s time to answer the most important question: what DOES work? How can we successfully sell liberty?

To answer this question, we must answer the more fundamental question: how does selling work? Amazingly, most people in politics have never bothered to learn the selling process, even though there has been plenty written and presented on the subject by experts in the marketing field.

I will present here a bare-bones model of selling, to get the conversation started. These are generally recognized steps in a selling process that are routinely acknowledged and taught by leaders of the marketing industry.

There are 8 key steps in any sales process, as follows:

  1. Identify and name a pain point.
  2. Claim an emotionally-driven solution to resolve that pain point.
  3. Identify your target audience and your credentials to address that market.
  4. Create a “trigger” to get engagement with your message from your target market.
  5. Overcome objections.
  6. Present expert testimonials that defend your solution.
  7. Create some form of risk reversal.
  8. Identify your solution’s uniqueness to differentiate it from the rest of the sellers in the marketplace.

We could argue over the proper order, and your order might be better than mine. However, I’m confident to 3 decimal places that these 8 steps broadly cover all of the overall keys to successful selling.

So let’s go through each step for a moment, one by one.

1. Identify and name a pain point.

What is a pain point? It is an emotionally-driven point of negative sensitivity. Pain points are why we consider buying stuff.

“Wait a minute!” I hear you complain. “I thought you said libertarians shouldn’t focus on negatives!”

Sure, we have to touch pain points, but we can’t make them the sum total of the selling process as so many libertarian activists do. Ignoring the other 7 steps dooms your selling efforts to failure. All 8 points work together, or they don’t work at all.

I should take a moment to debunk an old myth that intellectuals in particular often fall for. Many people believe that people buy things out of logic and reason, but it’s not true. Libertarians in particular are susceptible to this fallacy because of the extensive left-brained logic of libertarian philosophy. Indeed, even the economic theories of Austrian Economics posit the idea of rational actors in a rational economic setting. But the truth is that even libertarians respond primarily to their own emotions in buying situations, then justify those emotions rationally when they decide to buy something. The same is also true for non-libertarians.

The classic example to illustrate this point is the father who goes into a new car showroom with his wife. He sees two cars there. One is a beautiful, red sports car with a convertible top or a sunroof. The other is an SUV. He LOVES the sports car. He desperately wants it. But he knows his wife will never accept it because they have children and they need that SUV. So, the rational buyer says to himself that he must logically accept that what he must do is to buy the car that he really doesn’t want to buy. He then pats himself on the back for his objective rationality.

The problem with this story is that his decision was actually not rationally-based at all. Rather, he bought the SUV out of love for his wife and children. He recognized the pain points associated with his wife getting on his case for buying a sports car instead of the SUV the family really needs, with his kids needing to be transported to soccer games, karate classes, field trips, etc, as well as with needing to transport groceries, stuff for the house, and so on.

In short, he actually responded to a long list of pain points, and THOSE are what led him to overcome his own initial desire to buy the red sports car, even though he LOVES that red sports car! His decision was emotionally-based, not rationally based. But because he’s a rational person, he then goes through all the features, reads Consumer Reports, and takes other steps to justify and assure himself that buying the SUV is the rational thing to do. Thus, he falsely concludes that his decision to buy the SUV was a rationally- derived decision.

In reality, though, he made the decision to buy based upon emotional needs before he even walked into the showroom.

We buy food to alleviate the pain point of hunger. We buy houses to alleviate the pain point of having nowhere to live. We buy smart phones to alleviate a number of pain points:

  1. Fear of being disconnected from our friends or business associates.
  2. Having a handy way to take snapshots at the drop of a hat, which overcomes the pain point of frustration associated with, “I wish I had a camera with me. This would make a great photo!”
  3. Being able to find a restaurant or the nearest gas station or a rest room no matter where we are by just reaching into our pockets and surfing the web. When you gotta go, you gotta go!

In fact, the list of pain points that smart phones address is longer than your arm. It’s no surprise that Apple alone has sold nearly a half billion iPhones over the past 10 years given how many pain points the iPhone addresses, many of which people didn’t even realize they had until Apple pointed those pain points out to them while showing them the solution!

What are some of the pain points a libertarian might address? Actually, I’m sure libertarians can think of lots of them. Keep your own favorite ones in mind as you read on.

The big problem with libertarians is not that they don’t come up with pain points. Actually, they come up with plenty of them, too many in most cases. The meat of the problem is that libertarians don’t also incorporate the next steps in their presentations of those pain points. Let’s look at those steps now.

2. Claim an emotionally-driven solution to resolve that pain point.

Most libertarians smugly sit back and smile knowing that they do this all the time. Sadly, however, they’re wrong. In reality, most libertarians don’t supply solutions at all, and the only emotion they seem to know is passion. They merely allude to solutions as if everyone already knows them, when in fact the mainstream does NOT known them! In fact, it’s quite disconcerting to note just how often libertarian presenters offer no solutions at all!

For most libertarians, the solutions are to get government out of it, to mind our own business, and to allow the market to solve problems. While these certainly resonate with libertarians, they definitely do NOT resonate with non-libertarians.

Yet how many libertarian activists not only fail to appreciate this fine point, but also take no steps at all to repair the situation? Instead, they return to the first step over and over again to continue to present even more pain points! Their non-receptive audience (outside of the activist’s own choir) thus learns quickly to expect an endless series of pain points from libertarian activists without ever hoping to hear a real solution that resonates with them. So they shut the libertarian activist out.

Thus, libertarian activists gain the reputations of being pains-in-the-ass rather than effective, persuasive advocates. Sound familiar? It should, because that’s often the proudly-stated goal of many activists. That they succeed in being perceived as pains-in-the-ass and take pride in it only demonstrates how horribly disconnected they are from the people they claim that they want to persuade.

A real solution is only real if the target audience perceives it to be real. Thus, to claim that the market will solve the problem better only works if the audience agrees that that market can solve the problem! If the audience doesn’t agree, then you have a problem.

Libertarian activists typically solve this problem by putting out reams of logical arguments and solutions. So why doesn’t this approach work?

It fails for the same reason that pain points are the first step. Pain points are emotional in nature. Their solutions must ALSO be emotional in nature!

Logic does not alleviate pain. Why then do libertarian activists insist on using logic to counter pain? It’s so counter-intuitive that one might think that libertarians would wake up one day and say, “Hey! Maybe I should try doing something other than making more logical arguments!”

But no, it doesn’t happen. Instead, they demonstrate once again their insanity by repeating the same failed arguments over and over again, expecting a different result.

It’s not that the logical arguments are bad. Far from it! Heck, I personally agree with many of them. Rather, the problem is that they’re addressing the wrong solution. Their solution is invariably logical and inferred, when it needs to be emotional and clearly stated.

This is where libertarian activists usually stumble badly. “How can you address a purely logical fallacy using emotion?”, they ask. “Isn’t it better to defeat illogical arguments with good logic?”

The answer to both questions is yes in an Oxford-rules debate, but no when dealing with people in society. They forget (if they ever knew) that people (even themselves) buy emotionally, not logically.

Thus, they can’t possibly understand how President Barrack Obama’s vague and tepid solution of “change” during the 2008 Presidential campaign could possibly resonate so resoundingly among the electorate as it did. They don’t recognize the inherent emotional appeal in the “change” argument. All they can see is the irrationality of it and the broken promises that go along with it. They just don’t “get” the idea that it doesn’t matter whether the promises were broken. All that mattered was whether the solution … as weak as it was … successfully addressed the solution to peoples’ pain points in a way that resonated with them emotionally. Emotion forgives failures. It forgives bad logic. It forgives all. It only knows “now”.

This second step proves to be quite overwhelmingly challenging for most libertarians. So how do you overcome it?

Start by seeing successfully sold solutions as emotional rather than as logical. Push the emotional buttons when you present your solutions and not just your pain points.

One of the ways libertarian activists sorely fail is in their abilities to imagine how the better libertarian society would specifically handle a given pain point. For instance, if you’re a libertarian activist, you believe that the market does a great job in solving pain points. Can you be more specific? A LOT more specific?

Describe to me in great detail, with concrete examples, how a marketplace solves the problem of the gap between the rich and the poor, for example. I’m not saying it can’t be done. I’m pointing out that you probably haven’t done it and don’t really know where to begin.

Sit down and write an essay on how society would look and operate if there was no social safety net, how it would actually be better for people at the lower end of the pyramid. Can you do it? Convincingly? I doubt it. More importantly, the audience you want to persuade doubts it too. That’s why you don’t get anywhere with them.

The popular mantra among libertarian activists these days is: don’t get caught up in the minutiae of intellectual arguments. What they mean by this is: don’t mess with the details. What they fail to recognize is that the details are how you make emotional connections with your audience. They correctly recognize the negative drawback of addressing details using logical arguments, but they do not recognize the paramount importance of connecting with their audience emotionally based upon the details. They hope to skip that step, arguing that if they don’t caught up in intellectual arguments, they won’t get bogged down. But they’re wrong because they’re the ones who so often fail to connect with their target audience.

Your story must be emotionally driven, not logically driven. This is where most libertarian activists avoid entering their personal zones of discomfort. They don’t know how to do it. They don’t know how to write or talk emotionally, except for passionately. They don’t know how to connect with their audiences emotionally.

I can give you a few, simple steps to do it, but I can’t guarantee it’ll be easy. Simple is rarely easy. In general, what we’re talking about here is creating stories. Creating stories isn’t easy to do, but here’s the basic process in a nutshell.

  1. Imagine the event or situation you want to happen.
  2. Give it as many real, concrete, specific details as possible. “Flesh it out” as the old cliché goes. Give it life. Create characters. Generate interaction. Present a conflict, a climax, and a resolution. The more details, the more likelihood your listeners will listen to it.
  3. Create a story line, including a beginning, a middle, and an end.
  4. Now tell what you imagined in step 1 as a complete story.
  5. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

None of us liked the stories that candidate Obama told, but we cannot deny that his storytelling was extremely effective in rallying his supporters and gaining more supporters. Most libertarians make dreadful storytellers because of their heavy emphasis on argumentation and logic, so we really need to work on this skill a lot. We must learn the art of effective storytelling.

Most important of all, your solution must be POSITIVE! If your solution is nothing more than, “Let’s stop hitting the pain point,” then you haven’t actually offered a solution, at least not a sales-based solution that will persuade new people to join you.

Sure, if you keep hitting your finger when hammering a nail, the immediate solution might seem to be to stop hitting your finger. That’s the argument most libertarians would make, but the emotional solution must also provide a way to make sure that you don’t accidentally hit your finger again so that people imagine they will feel relief going forward.

  1. Maybe your solution is to wear a metal glove on the other hand. So even if the hammer hits your finger, you don’t feel the pain.
  2. Maybe your solution is to let someone else do the hammering while THEY hold the nail. That way, the hammer never hits your finger.
  3. Maybe your solution is to hammer using short strokes rather than long strokes, to give you more control and avoid hitting your finger.
  4. Maybe your solution is to use a nail gun, so that you don’t have to swing a hammer at all in order to drive a nail.

As you can see, in each of these cases the solution strongly suggests a positive emotional context. You will definitely feel better, more in-control, more successful, if you use one of these solutions rather than simply trying to follow the admonishment, “well, stop hitting your finger”! Yet how many libertarians use that kind of sarcastic “stop hitting your finger” reply to propose their solution? Nearly all of them, of course!

In fact, if you were to try to sell one of these solutions, imagine how much easier it would be! For instance, you could sell a nail gun by saying things like:

  1. Now you will never hit your thumb again while hitting a nail. What a relief!
  2. Be the envy of your fellow carpenters!
  3. Nail faster, more easily, and risk free than ever before!
  4. Throw that awful hammer away for good!

Notice that every single one of those claims presses an emotional button. “What a relief” is an emotional reaction. Envy is an emotion. Risk free is emotional. Throwing the hammer way for good … now THAT’S emotional!

Oh, what a relief it is!

3. Identify your target audience and your credentials to address that market.

American libertarian activists usually make the same kind of mistake that many small business owners make. They do a terrible job of identifying their target audience. They make a list of false assumptions, including:

  1. Everyone but liberal wackos are in my target audience.
  2. My target audience includes every concerned, reasonable American.
  3. I have only one target audience.
  4. My target audience thinks like I do.
  5. Liberty is good for everyone. Therefore, everyone (except liberal wackos and high-powered politicians) is in my target audience.
  6. The majority of people distrust government. Therefore, the majority of people are ripe for logical libertarian arguments.
  7. And many more.

In truth, we have numerous target audiences, and each one requires different treatment. But first, let’s take a moment to discuss what a target audience is.

The concept of a target audience comes from a target used in target shooting. The classic target is round and has a series of concentric rings surrounding a bulls-eye in the middle. Most people think of a target audience as being all the people who metaphorically fit on that target, but that’s incorrect. Your target audience is the people who reside in the bulls-eye.

“What?” I hear you protest. “No, that’s wrong! I want to reach as many people as possible.”

This is the classic mistake that even professional marketers make. They assume that if they aim and hit the bulls-eye every time, they’ll never reach the people on the periphery. But that’s a false assumption. Here’s why.

First, the people in the bulls-eye are influencers. Reach them and meet their needs successfully, and THEY will reach and sell the people on the periphery for you.

Second, the people in the bulls-eye have different needs and interests from the people on the periphery. Aim to hit the people all over the target, and you’ll be much less likely to win over the people who live in the bulls- eye.

“But won’t that mean that I’ll be dealing only with interest groups, that I’ll never reach THE PEOPLE?”

No, it doesn’t. The question assumes that there is only one target audience. In fact, there are many target audiences, thousands of them, perhaps even millions of them. Each one has its own unique needs, interests, and most important of all, PAIN POINTS REQUIRING SOLUTIONS THEY CAN BELIEVE AND BUY!

So the goal becomes to hit each target audience in the bulls-eye, one target at a time.

To do this, you have to know your target audience in every particular case. Do most libertarians bother to find out who their target audience is in any given situation? Heck no! They just do their normal arguing, agitating, criticizing, attacking, extolling, and sometimes trolling. This is yet another reason why libertarians don’t get anywhere.

What happens if you present a solution to a pain point that doesn’t resonate with your target audience? What do you do then? The first thing to do is to look at your target audience and ask yourself, “Was my solution congruent with their needs and interests as THEY perceive them?” In nearly all cases, I find with libertarian arguers that the answer to that question is a great big, NO!

There is no such thing as a single, monolithic American electorate. There is no such thing as needing just one, unifying logical theory in order to win people over. That isn’t how people think or behave or respond. They respond to solutions to pain points where the solutions meet their immediate needs from THEIR perspectives, not from YOUR perspective.

I should also mention credentials. Your credentials come from two sources: your authority (which derives from your authorship), and your credibility (which comes from whether they can identify with you).

4. Create a “trigger” to get engagement with your message from your target market.

A trigger is a mechanism for getting the people to whom you’re talking to take some form of desired action after recognizing how the solution will work effectively for them. Triggers answer the question, “How does that work?” In other words, a trigger is what sets the solution into motion so that your target audience (your “buyer”) can imagine the solution actually working for them.

The storytelling angle I outlined above begins the trigger-building process. Follow your story with a “next step” about how to get there or how to make your story happen. That’s your trigger.

There are three important keys to building an effective trigger:

  1. Don’t make your trigger too watered down or too vague. It must be specific and tangible in the minds of your target audience.
  2. Use a roller coaster effect by presenting your pain point, solution, identification of your target audience’s needs, and trigger over and over again with different variants. Thus, your audience hears the whole cycle repeatedly, presented slightly differently each time, burning into their subconscious minds the power and effectiveness of your solution.
  3. Don’t make the libertarian activist’s most common mistake by focusing all the time on giving them more pain points, right? You gotta follow each pain point with a solution, an identification with your target audience, and a proposed trigger mechanism.
  4. Don’t trigger too often.

“Hey, wait a minute!” I hear you protest. “You just said to use the roller coast effect. Now you say don’t do it too often. Well, which is it? How often is too often?”

It’s a valid complaint, but the point also demonstrates the importance of exercising good judgment. Too often versus not often enough is a judgment call you must make in each case. Use your target audience’s reactions and responses to gauge how much is not enough and how much is too much. That’s the best guideline I can give you.

5. Overcome objections.

Most libertarians are exceptionally enthusiastic about doing this step. Their problem is that they still make the following mistakes when they do it:

  1. Perceptions rule. Specifically, your target audience’s perceptions rule. If you fail to overcome their objections by focusing on THEIR perceptions, not YOUR perceptions, you will lose every time.
  2. Their past experiences with libertarian activists create fear in their minds. You must address that fear, every time, in some way. You must assure them that they have nothing to fear in a way that is meaningful to THEM. Proof can be one very good way to do this, but it must be proof that resonates with THEM.
  3. The unknown creates fear. Despite every effort you make to be as specific as possible with your solutions and triggers, you very likely won’t address all their fears. The unknown part is the part you didn’t address because of lack of time, lack of space, lack of whatever. You must address their fear of the unknown, and you must do it specifically to the details of the idea you’re selling.
  4. Remember that the needs for security and safety are among the top emotional drivers most people have. Don’t just hammer them as pain points. Show them how nail drivers make better solutions!

Don’t skip over this important part about overcoming objections. Make sure that the method you use for overcoming their objections meets each of the above requirements.

6. Present expert testimonials that defend your solution.

Enough time has evolved that there are now libertarians in all walks of life who have attempted either theoretically or practically to apply libertarian solutions in their lives and writings. Point to them. Use them as experts to defend your position.

A good testimonial is the flip side of an objection. For every objection they raise, come up with a testimonial to support your reply to their objection.

7. Create some form of risk reversal.

In the marketing world, this refers to something like a guarantee or a warranty. Obviously, in politics, there are no guarantees. However, that doesn’t mean that you can’t make them anyway in an effective way.

Remember, you’re trying to address your target audience emotionally. Emotional communication has no past or future. It only has now. How do you make them feel now? What are they feeling now? These are the critical questions. Devise a promise, a guarantee, a warranty of some kind. Remember the lesson from candidate Obama. It doesn’t have to be true or accurate. It only has to be emotionally appealing to be well-received.

Will critics criticize your proposed risk reversal? Of course they will. Hey, I’ve got news for you. They’re going to criticize EVERYTHING you say or do, no matter how good it is.

Ignore the critics. Just make your guarantees. Make them as real and as good as you can make them, of course. They need credibility in order to be well received by your audience. But if you’ve done your job with the first five steps in this process, it won’t be hard for them to buy into your guarantee, no matter how flimsy it may seem.

8. Identify your solution’s uniqueness to differentiate it from the rest of the sellers in the marketplace.

This is the last step, and it’s actually the easiest step for most libertarians. Clearly, libertarian thought is highly unique compared to the rest of the political “marketplace”. If you’ve done your job with the other 7 steps, this one will be addressed easily, naturally, and automatically. No extra effort required.

That’s it for now.

This article has gone on an awfully long time. Clearly, this subject requires far more discussion than a single article can handle. I hope, though, that I managed to give you some ideas you can put to use right away to sell liberty in your efforts as a libertarian activist. Share your comments and questions below.

I hope that Jim Lewis is pleased with it, too!

Poster Comment:
Repeating for Emphasis: All of the top libertarian bloggers that I know thus put out a stream of negatively-based posts designed to scare or disgust mainstream people into switching their allegiance to the libertarian movement by showing just how horrible big government truly is. The idea is that the mainstream approach is so abhorrent that if you make it clear just how abhorrent that side’s views are, you’ll win supporters by default. Even though the approach has failed and continues fail on a monumental scale, its adherents stay the course.
LF’s fanatical libertarians put out the same stream of negatively-based posts designed to scare or disgust as they stalk and hound other posters. They have never learned that does not work. That is why I continue to regard their sort of fanatical proselytizing as a worshiping cultish religion of annoying flamers who give the appearance so much as street-preachers screaming on the sidewalk where people walk on by and never stop to listen.

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#55. To: Gatlin (#54)

Rand Paul was caught plagiarising

I thought ptlagiarising was ptheft.

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-03   15:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Gatlin (#54)

--- you can't dispute the facts about the authoritarian/progressive takeover, so here you are, trying to digress.

So, don't you dare call me a "non performer."

You're a non performer, full of bullshit about american libertarians, who won't face up to american history.

And you’re seriously undermining your ideology. You are why libertarianism is a joke that I thoroughly enjoy mocking mercilessly. And you know what? When I point at you and laugh, it’s not my fault. I take no responsibility (you should all appreciate that). It’s your fault for not making an effort to be less full of shit and less laughable. Seriously, you should focus making the case for why your ideology is so brilliant, instead of constantly demonstrating you’re full of shit. Take responsibility for yourself. Hold your leaders responsible for what they’ve done, and show me why you have it right, and I have it wrong. But until you do that; I laugh, oh how I laugh!

You're going a bit crazy, in your effort to digress from our issue, above.

You claimed there has never been a successful government that utilized libertarian principles.. You cannot refute my response, as we see by your hissy fit digressions.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   16:04:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Palmdale (#55)

I thought ptlagiarising was ptheft.

Not when Gatslime does it.

Go ahead - ask him.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-02-03   16:06:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: tpaine (#53)

Palmdale


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party

"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2015-02-03   16:06:22 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: hondo68 (#58)

Palmdale

Yeah - that's pretty much how I pictured the whiny little bitch too.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-02-03   16:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Palmdale, still stalking (#55)

ptheft

Poor little Ptalmey, still ptlaying snarky word games, while pretending he has me bozoed..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   16:10:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: tpaine (#56)

There are no great libertarian thinkers. Libertarianism is the absence of thought.

Lately, libertarianism has gained some weird popularity in the U.S. Sort of like Garbage Pail Kids did, but more offensive and less intellectual. Somehow, a growing group of maniacs has decided that things like paying taxes and making sure their handicapped grandma doesn’t die is an affront to their personal liberty.

I used to go by the theory that there are no homeless libertarians, but now I realize that was in error. The homeless are the quintessential libertarians, with no freedom-sapping things like shelter or clothing taking away from their personal freedom of licking the cheese off a three-day-old McDonald’s wrapper.

Libertarianism is like Scientology in that it’s a huge scam with a cult following of people who have completely lost the ability to think for themselves. Also, both libertarians and Scientologists believe in space aliens and that “Battlefield Earth” was Barry Pepper’s best work.

In the U.S., libertarians are under some bizarre fantasy that State governments somehow are better than the federal government. This fantasy is formed by being utterly ignorant to the current plight of states and the stupidity of state laws. Hell, why stop at States. How about we just live under City laws. Or better yet, let your neighborhood make all the rules. That way, you can have neighborhoods that have legalized dog fights and pedophilia. You know, Liberty.

And don’t even start with the, “Well, the Founding Fathers said … ” stuff. As soon as you have writings of the Founding Fathers talking about a nation of 300 million people with 50 states and run by mega-corporations, we’ll talk.

Libertarianism is a lot like the movie “Human Centipede” in that everyone involved is completely full of shit and it’s never actually been done in real life

Libertarianism was originally known as Anarchist Communism, because it essentially takes the worst of two hideous and failed ideologies, smooshes them together and calls it a philosophy. Human civilization has never tried libertarianism as a ruling ideology because humans aren’t, by and large, selfish and soulless monsters. Also, because it’s the type of ideology a 13- year-old comes up with when they’re angry that their parents make them mow the lawn.

Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

Libertarians essentially believe that those who fall through the cracks of capitalism will be taken care of by charities. Because God knows, the majority of Americans who work 18-hour days for $2 an hour will spend their off hours working at soup kitchens and giving free appendix surgery to those who need it but can’t afford it. A libertarian regime would just mean we’d need to get used to wading through dead bodies to get to work. Because it would infringe upon our liberties to bury anyone who’s not you.

Libertarians believe the purest form of death is putting a bullet in your own head. Because you were free to own a gun and eat a bullet to get away from the nightmare of libertarianism.

Libertarianism is the belief that the poor of the United States aren’t suffering enough.

That so many people have seen how capitalism and unfettered free markets affect the common person and yet still consider it a perfect economic system can only mean one thing – that libertarians are just Republicans that have grown embarrassed in calling themselves Republicans. It’s not an ideology. It’s a way for rich people to sit back, feel superior and enjoy watching poor people fight to the death over a scrap of gristle.

Libertarians don’t have any idea what in the hell liberty or freedom mean. They are just a bunch of assholes who don’t want to pay taxes and want to get stoned and watch people who earn less than them wither and die.

In an era of winner-take-all capitalism, libertarianism is not just moronic. It’s evil.

Libertarianism: The absence of thought

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   16:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Gatlin (#61)

Ahh, class warfare, nice, flat out Marxist strategy.

Gee, I wonder why politicians dont use that?

Lol

Dead Culture Watch  posted on  2015-02-03   16:55:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Gatlin (#61)

No great Libertarian thinkers? Not even Bill Maher or Howard Stern?

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-03   17:06:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Gatlin (#0)

You have posted many articles here in full. Do you think that putting Liberty's Flame in danger of copyright violation is a good thing? So much for your "respect" for "law and order". Do you have ulterior motives by doing this? Surely you wouldn't stoop so low as to report these violations under another name. Right?

How long before you start with the rude, flashing, oversized graphics?

You're a clown. An emotional, childish and petulant one at that. But you're not funny.

Operation 40  posted on  2015-02-03   17:17:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Operation 40 (#64)

Thank you for your gracious input and for your deep concern.

I will take your points under advisement.

In the meantime, I will stop when Stone tells me I cannot post full length articles.

You are encouraged to use bozo if my posts bother you.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   17:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Gatlin (#61)

You made the following comment, and have never refuted my reply. Right?

I'll get back to you on this as soon as I finish looking through the governments of the nearly 200 countries in the world today and find where only ONE has fully actualized a libertarian society. If libertarianism is such a good idea, then I can expect to find at least ONE country with minimal government, free trade, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state and no public education system....right?

You won't have to look far, as you are describing the USA of approx 100 years ago, ( with the exception of a public school system administered by local govts), --- this was before you authoritarian 'progressives' started ignoring our Constitution.... Right?

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   17:36:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Otter (#42)

Another example of libertarianism. Juvenile, accusatory and disgusting. You can't conduct civil discourse. You will always be losers.

Moderator X  posted on  2015-02-03   17:43:35 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: tpaine (#66)

The Anti-Cop Pose is a Libertarian Strategic Error

Libertarians have found themselves in an impossible position thanks to years of regular anti-police activism, bombastic statements against police, and sloganeering around the Drug War.

I would argue that the leading voice in this strain is Radley Balko, who ran a widely-read blog on police abuses that he eventually turned into a book contract and columnist gigs at the Huffington and Washington Posts.

The main reason why this strain of activism has turned into a dead- end for the libertarians comes down to a several reasons:

  • The problems of maintaining a stable legal order.
  • Misunderstanding what the Drug War is, due to taking political propaganda at face value.
  • Being unable to speak honestly about race, knowing the fates of Murray Rothbard and H.H. Hoppe for doing so.
  • An emotional and financial desire to reach the mainstream population through the prestige press and television.
  • A misunderstanding of the demographics that are likely to respond to libertarian appeals.

To support the first bullet, let’s get ourselves to Moldbug, who writes:

The problem with Mises as guru is that Misesian classical liberalism (or Rothbardian libertarianism) is like Newtonian physics. It is basically correct within its operating envelope. Under unusual conditions it breaks down, and a more general model is needed. The equation has another term, the ordinary value of which is zero. Without this term, the equation is wrong. Normally this is no problem; but if the term is not zero, the error becomes visible.

The entire idea of a stable libertarian order is predicated on the ‘order’ part of things. When the country is populated by numerous people who have no respect for notions of property and peace, then it’s impossible to maintain the law… and even then, only possible to maintain the law at high expense, with some measure of brutality.

On the second point, contemporary libertarians, for fear of the outer darkness to which anyone who writes about racial differences will be relegated, tend to neglect to discuss the different tendencies of different groups of people and cultures. Ron Paul’s first race in the Republican primaries was damaged badly by the publication of what were really quite mild newsletters in which his ghostwriters discussed race and crime.

Contemporary libertarians tend to over-compensate for this with ostentatious expressions of pro-Civil-Rights rhetoric, contradicting many of their other positions concerning freedom of association.

The libertarian ideology, at least in its most vulgar expressions, tends to float atop a world of pure theory, without reference to its cultural roots or origins.

Finally, it’s the worst possible pose to strike for an ideology supposedly dedicated to the defense of absolute private property rights to support violent rioters who are destroying the property of small merchants.

The libertarian is supposed to be fighting for the rights of the people like the petty merchants whose businesses the rioters are destroying. The rioter who destroys his shop and threatens his life is a more direct threat than the policeman who collects tax and intimidates the more dangerous men away from his territory.

Similarly, it’s nonsensical to simultaneously support an ideology that supposedly fights for the rights of ordinary people to maintain the integrity of their persons and property against all challengers to express sympathy for assassins of police officers.

Regardless of whatever theoretical reasons there might be for grinning ghoulishly at the deaths of cops, to place oneself on the same side as the communist revolutionaries advocating these disruptions of public order is to be on the wrong side, to ally with the left and the associated forces for the forceful dissolution of society.

In this way, libertarians behave like someone else who called herself a ‘libertarian’ on occasion: Emma Goldman, who allied with Lenin, until the Party purged her and exiled her to America.

Contemporary libertarians who support rioters above police adhere to their own theories, which are obscure and alien to the common people, above the facts of actual events happening outside of their windows.

Arguments about the ‘NAP’ and the ‘absolute right to property’ spoken on one day, in private, become irrelevant to the minds of the common people when they see a libertarian spokesperson go on television and say that the police are at fault, and that the mob (invariably a socialist-democratic mob) is correct to be incensed.

I understand the appeal of striking this pose, because I have stricken something like this pose before for the same reasons, and regret my mistakes.

People like Christopher Cantwell, who are evidently invited to speak at libertarian conferences, speak as if they are either on the FBI’s payroll or on the payroll of whatever succeeded the Comintern:

Even these liberal fuckin idiots who want the government to control every aspect of their lives, are starting to realize that police are violent fuckin monsters who cannot be trusted, and while I don’t like the race pimping or the destruction of private property, if these Marxist fuckin animals can produce just a few more Ismaaiyl Brinsley’s, guys who will whack a couple of the king’s men then take themselves out, well, they just might make up for some of the damage they’ve done to society.

Such statements have little appeal to anyone predisposed to civilized life. It wouldn’t go over well with an insurance salesman with three children in Peoria.

The intellectuals are far more dangerous than the police ever have been and ever will be. Libertarians have created a commons under their intellectual brand, and have subsequently debased it, as Rothbard lamented late in his life

http://www.henrydampier.com/2015/01/anti-cop-pose- libertarian-strategic-error/.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   17:45:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Gatlin (#68)

Your last post,#68, supposedly in reply to my post,#66, -- is nothing but cut & paste spam.

Feel free to continue, as you are making a fool of yourself..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   18:13:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: tpaine (#69)

...is nothing but cut & paste spam.

It is not spam, it is what others have to say about libertarianism.

Someone suggested if I wanted to post less articles, I should post articles on a thread.

That sounded like a good recommendation....I concurred.

Since I established this thread and it is about libertarianism, it is therefore appropriate I post those articles here.

Please continue to read for you enlightening educational pleasure.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   18:22:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Gatlin (#61)

Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that.

However, I'm a staunch advocate for capitalism. Any less, is socialistic. We need three classes of people... for it is the rich person that can only inspire the poor pot smoking Xbox sofa dweller to better him/herself and become middle class. Those that remain uninspired and scream equality, will only better their Xbox play.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-03   18:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Gatlin (#70)

Your last post,#68, supposedly in reply to my post,#66, -- is nothing but cut & paste spam, unrelated to the discussion we had about libertarian style govts.

Feel free to continue, as you are making a fool of yourself.

It is not spam, it is what others have to say about libertarianism.

Which has nothing to do with our previous exchange, --- one where you have in effect, ceded my point. Thanks for making that obvious

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   18:40:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: GrandIsland, gatlin, and their wet dreams. (#71)

Gatlin (#61) -- Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that. -- grandisland

Wetting yourself about the masturbatory dreams of an anti-libertarian fanatic?

What a strange pair you two are.....

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   18:47:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: GrandIsland (#71)

Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that.

I am still laughing...

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:07:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: tpaine (#73)

Wetting yourself about the masturbatory dreams

It was over laughter.

For those without an agenda... it was funny.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-03   19:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: tpaine GrandIsland (#73)

Gatlin (#61) -- Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that. -- grandisland

Come on, Man....you gotta admit that is funny!!!

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:08:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: tpaine (#72)

The Wooing of the Left

The relationship between libertarianism and the general left is interesting. I’ve noticed a somewhat problematic phenomena that is two-fold.

On one hand, some libertarians try to market themselves to the left (and people in general) by appealing to simplistic soundbite-like sentiments that aren’t necessarily particular to libertarianism, such as “I abhor violence and believe in respecting people as individuals”, meant to imply that “you’re already a libertarian and don’t know it”. This is of course misleading in that a lot of people could get behind such a sentiment without libertarian ideology having anything to do with it, while drawing completely different political implications from it. This is some mix of manipulation/propaganda and libertarian delusion about their ideology being a matter of common sense. You’re not going to find too many people who are going to stand up and be like “I think violence is awesome!”. One must realize this is more rhetorical than substantive. It’s little better than Molyneux’s “gun in the room” argument.

On the other hand, I’ve noticed a certain trend among younger vaguely liberal people to stumble on to links to libertarian ideas on a specific issue or certain statements by libertarian figures that they agree with. These people aren’t actually part of the libertarian movement. They are mostly liberals outside of it who are occasionally bumping onto the edges of it, but they generally have no idea what they are getting into. They typically don’t know much about libertarianism as a political philosophy, it’s just that sometimes libertarians say things that resonate with them, particularly on issues of foreign policy and questions of government infringement into people’s choices. Indeed, in some ways this was exactly the position I was in about a decade ago when it came to some of the statements of Ron Paul, and it contributed to me being wooed into libertarianism.

Of course, there is no shortage of criticism of libertarianism from the left in general, and it tends to annoy the heck out of libertarians. Often, the libertarian response to this criticism comes in the form of overtly embracing its right-wing traits and rather strongly rejecting the left (which you’re likely to see from the Lew Rockwell crowd, for example). More generally, the libertarian response involves characterizing criticism as coming from ignorance, which right-libertarians and left-libertarians alike seem to loosely agree on: critics of libertarianism can only be arguing against unfair boogeymen and from a lack of knowledge of economics and ignorance of the esoteric ins and outs of libertarian theory. Then there is the delusional or otherwise manipulative left-libertarian tactic of acting like the leftist criticism is ignorant, but that libertarian ideology actually jibes the leftist’s motives better than the left does.

I’ve watched these arguments and sentiments play out over and over again in the libertarian echo chamber. When libertarians aren’t bashing on the left as economic illiterates and authoritarian governmentalists, they’re trying to woo the left with poor arguments. If you exclude social issues, even a lot of the dialogue you see coming from left-libertarians at C4SS, including Kevin Carson, is in general form in agreement with the right-libertarian bashing of the left: more than anything, that they don’t understand “the free market”. As I’ve said before, the one thing that unites all libertarians is the free market idea. There are even some articles by Carson that leave one with the impression that he’s in some ways virulently anti-leftist, and the site in general has increasingly become filled with defensive articles written in response to criticisms of libertarianism from the left.

The left-libertarian spin, where the wooing comes in, is in the notion that the free market can best provide the left’s desired ends and is most consistent with their motives, and that the state is the prime causal agent of everything the left opposes. The former point is patently false in the face of the reality of economic power dynamics, and the latter is a dubious sticking point of libertarian anarchist ideology. And here we come to the fact that if the free market idea is what unites libertarians generally, when it comes to “libertarian anarchism” the one thing that unites them is anti-statist reductionism. I think it’s important to make a distinction between anti- statism in the sense of non-recognition of state legitimacy and treating state power as an essential part of the problem of politics (which is part of anarchism generally), and anti-statism in the sense of such a myopic and oversimplified political analysis which treats it as an external entity spoiling social dynamics rather than an institution that is part of spoiled social dynamics. That’s part of why most self-described anarchists are not libertarians.

The left is entirely in the right to criticize libertarians for their phantasmagorical view of markets and their obsession with opposing the state. The left is being far from ignorant in perceiving libertarians to largely represent economic power and have wonky views on how the world works. These criticisms irk left-libertarians to no end, as they try as hard as they can to disassociate themselves from the reality of the libertarian movement and the practical implications of their own views. It is cliche for them to froth at the mouth with “not all libertarians” sentiment in face of the ugliness that is manifested by the bulk of their publicly visible political movement being called out, all the while holding on to the basic libertarian premises that enable what they want to disassociate themselves from. And they continue to promote the same free market mythos and story of the state as Sauron that the left rightly criticizes them for. They’re basically in a position of engaging in half-baked damage control.

The one area that left-libertarians have been able to successfully woo some parts of the left is on social justice issues, mainly by bringing in themes of anti-racism, feminism, and trans politics. That still does not mean that those social justice positions form a coherent political theory along with the rest of libertarianism or that social justice warriors should become libertarians. What is rich is to see the internal conflicts play out within the libertarian movement because of that trend, with right-libertarians opposing it mostly for the wrong reasons and pulling the “no true libertarian” card (sprinkled with some valid criticism) and left-libertarians pretentiously trying to make their social views essential to the meaning of being a libertarian or actively promote and glorify certain taboo things rather than just support a hands-off approach (which is quite clearly malarkey). While libertarianism has grown over the last decade, no, we are not having “the libertarian moment”. The movement is practically split in two on social issues, despite relatively broad agreement on the basic free market mantra.

It’s going take a lot more than vague appeals to non-violence, or even bringing in social justice issues, to convince the broad left to become libertarians. I don’t see it happening. There are dangers of slipping into libertarianism by some of the leftists on the borderline who take a liking to the most broad and watered down of libertarian sentiments – I feel tempted to warn them to be careful what they are getting into. And maybe a small contingent of the social justice side of things has been brought into a dialogue with some libertarians. But at the end of the day, no intelligent leftist who is secure in their principles and perceptive enough to read between the lines will ever buy into the free market mythos or willingly become apart of an essentially right-wing political movement, even a right- wing political movement with social justice thrown in.

https://antilibertarian cr iticism.wordpress.com/.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:19:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: tpaine (#73)

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:30:49 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Gatlin (#77)

The relationship between libertarianism and the general left is interesting.

"...Marx is the greatest libertarian to have appeared in the history of the human race..." -- Antonio Gramsci, L'Ordine Nuovo, 30 October 1921

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-03   19:37:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: tpaine (#76) (Edited)

Gatlin (#61) -- Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that. -- grandisland

Come on, Man....you gotta admit that is funny!!!

Annoying libertarians

Here tpaine, the first bullet point is specifically for you.

Get over yourselves. Mocking libertarians does not bring me a swarm of traffic — you’re like a tiny swarm of self-important rodents who will natter on endlessly in protest, but most normal people laugh once, shrug, and move on. The major traffic-getter on my site yesterday was a post inviting women to express themselves. If all I cared about was sucking in clicks, I’d do that more often; women matter, libertarians are a negligible blip.

  • The funniest thing to me is how quickly libertarians get indignant and demonstrate an absence of a sense of humor. It never fails. Make a joke about libertarians, and they don’t get it, but they will sit there and explain how the joke doesn’t work, endlessly, becoming a new variant of the joke themselves. Please, get some self-awareness!

  • There were the typical claims that government would be at the mercy of whatever rascal we elect to the presidency. I would like more government. A well-regulated civil service would be an excellent buffer against the whims of the executive. Why do you anti-government guys always think so simplistically, assuming that big government means concentrating more power in the hands of an autocratic individual? You do realize that we live in a representative democracy with more than one person at the top, and that non-partisan institutions within government can function without an overlord?

  • The alternative to regulation of basic services by the government is privatizing them and giving more power to corporations — whose goal is to increase profits. Personally, I like to see the Invisible Hand shackled and restricted to doing useful work, rather than picking pockets.

  • I actually do like civil libertarians very much. The rights of the individual to think and speak as he or she pleases should not be compromised. However, the social machinery that maximizes civil liberties is very much the product of cooperation and secular social institutions. Most of the oblivious libertarians — the ones who can’t get the joke — don’t realize that their advocacy of mindless laissez-faire capitalism and unfettered industry is about destroying the social fabric that allows each of us to be something more than a serf. Freedom is worth paying taxes for, unless all you think freedom is about is gathering money.

My apologies for the link to the malware site in that post, too, and I’ve removed it for now. I hope the bad stuff gets fixed soon; Barry Deutsch at leftycartoons.com (right now, go there at your peril) actually has page after page of absolutely marvelous cartoons that will make pro-union, pro-equality, pro-socialism, pro-goodness and light people feel all happy and warm.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/30/annoying- libertarians/ .

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:40:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Gatlin (#76)

Gatlin (#61) -- Libertarians believe that masturbating in front of a mirror is the purest form of sex because it’s all you, baby.

I about wet myself reading that. -- grandisland

Come on, Man....you gotta admit that is funny!!!

Come on man. You expect me to be amused at the anti-libertarian crap you sling?

But yep, I am amused at you two, -- grown men tittering at jack off jokes like schoolboys..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   19:42:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Gatlin (#80)

Key Concepts of Libertarianism

By David Boaz January 1, 1999

The key concepts of libertarianism have developed over many centuries. The first inklings of them can be found in ancient China, Greece, and Israel; they began to be developed into something resembling modern libertarian philosophy in the work of such seventeenth- and eighteenth-century thinkers as John Locke, David Hume, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine.

Individualism. Libertarians see the individual as the basic unit of social analysis. Only individuals make choices and are responsible for their actions. Libertarian thought emphasizes the dignity of each individual, which entails both rights and responsibility. The progressive extension of dignity to more people — to women, to people of different religions and different races — is one of the great libertarian triumphs of the Western world.

Individual Rights. Because individuals are moral agents, they have a right to be secure in their life, liberty, and property. These rights are not granted by government or by society; they are inherent in the nature of human beings. It is intuitively right that individuals enjoy the security of such rights; the burden of explanation should lie with those who would take rights away.

Spontaneous Order. A great degree of order in society is necessary for individuals to survive and flourish. It’s easy to assume that order must be imposed by a central authority, the way we impose order on a stamp collection or a football team. The great insight of libertarian social analysis is that order in society arises spontaneously, out of the actions of thousands or millions of individuals who coordinate their actions with those of others in order to achieve their purposes. Over human history, we have gradually opted for more freedom and yet managed to develop a complex society with intricate organization. The most important institutions in human society — language, law, money, and markets — all developed spontaneously, without central direction. Civil society — the complex network of associations and connections among people — is another example of spontaneous order; the associations within civil society are formed for a purpose, but civil society itself is not an organization and does not have a purpose of its own.

The Rule of Law. Libertarianism is not libertinism or hedonism. It is not a claim that “people can do anything they want to, and nobody else can say anything.” Rather, libertarianism proposes a society of liberty under law, in which individuals are free to pursue their own lives so long as they respect the equal rights of others. The rule of law means that individuals are governed by generally applicable and spontaneously developed legal rules, not by arbitrary commands; and that those rules should protect the freedom of individuals to pursue happiness in their own ways, not aim at any particular result or outcome.

Limited Government. To protect rights, individuals form governments. But government is a dangerous institution. Libertarians have a great antipathy to concentrated power, for as Lord Acton said, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Thus they want to divide and limit power, and that means especially to limit government, generally through a written constitution enumerating and limiting the powers that the people delegate to government. Limited government is the basic political implication of libertarianism, and libertarians point to the historical fact that it was the dispersion of power in Europe — more than other parts of the world — that led to individual liberty and sustained economic growth.

Free Markets. To survive and to flourish, individuals need to engage in economic activity. The right to property entails the right to exchange property by mutual agreement. Free markets are the economic system of free individuals, and they are necessary to create wealth. Libertarians believe that people will be both freer and more prosperous if government intervention in people’s economic choices is minimized.

The Virtue of Production. Much of the impetus for libertarianism in the seventeenth century was a reaction against monarchs and aristocrats who lived off the productive labor of other people. Libertarians defended the right of people to keep the fruits of their labor. This effort developed into a respect for the dignity of work and production and especially for the growing middle class, who were looked down upon by aristocrats. Libertarians developed a pre- Marxist class analysis that divided society into two basic classes: those who produced wealth and those who took it by force from others. Thomas Paine, for instance, wrote, “There are two distinct classes of men in the nation, those who pay taxes, and those who receive and live upon the taxes.” Similarly, Jefferson wrote in 1824, “We have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.” Modern libertarians defend the right of productive people to keep what they earn, against a new class of politicians and bureaucrats who would seize their earnings to transfer them to nonproducers.

Natural Harmony of Interests. Libertarians believe that there is a natural harmony of interests among peaceful, productive people in a just society. One person’s individual plans — which may involve getting a job, starting a business, buying a house, and so on — may conflict with the plans of others, so the market makes many of us change our plans. But we all prosper from the operation of the free market, and there are no necessary conflicts between farmers and merchants, manufacturers and importers. Only when government begins to hand out rewards on the basis of political pressure do we find ourselves involved in group conflict, pushed to organize and contend with other groups for a piece of political power.

Peace. Libertarians have always battled the age-old scourge of war. They understood that war brought death and destruction on a grand scale, disrupted family and economic life, and put more power in the hands of the ruling class — which might explain why the rulers did not always share the popular sentiment for peace. Free men and women, of course, have often had to defend their own societies against foreign threats; but throughout history, war has usually been the common enemy of peaceful, productive people on all sides of the conflict.

… It may be appropriate to acknowledge at this point the reader’s likely suspicion that libertarianism seems to be just the standard framework of modern thought — individualism, private property, capitalism, equality under the law. Indeed, after centuries of intellectual, political, and sometimes violent struggle, these core libertarian principles have become the basic structure of modern political thought and of modern government, at least in the West and increasingly in other parts of the world.

However, three additional points need to be made: first, libertarianism is not just these broad liberal principles. Libertarianism applies these principles fully and consistently, far more so than most modern thinkers and certainly more so than any modern government. Second, while our society remains generally based on equal rights and capitalism, every day new exceptions to those principles are carved out in Washington and in Albany, Sacramento, and Austin (not to mention London, Bonn, Tokyo, and elsewhere). Each new government directive takes a little bit of our freedom, and we should think carefully before giving up any liberty. Third, liberal society is resilient; it can withstand many burdens and continue to flourish; but it is not infinitely resilient. Those who claim to believe in liberal principles but advocate more and more confiscation of the wealth created by productive people, more and more restrictions on voluntary interaction, more and more exceptions to property rights and the rule of law, more and more transfer of power from society to state, are unwittingly engaged in the ultimately deadly undermining of civilization.

From Chapter 1, “The Coming Libertarian Age,” Libertarianism: A Primer, by David Boaz (New York: The Free Press, 1998). See also www.libertarianism.org.

David Boaz is executive vice president of the Cato Institute and author of Libertarianism: A Primer, from which this is excerpted.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   19:49:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: tpaine (#81)

Come on man. You expect me to be amused at the anti-libertarian crap you sling?

More Amusing Anti-Libertarian Humor
That’s a relevant question because many people think of us as unhappy curmudgeons, or perhaps as dorky Randians.

While I think those stereotypes are unfair, I also confess that I can only think of a few examples of explicitly pro-libertarian humor.

Libertarian Jesus scolding modern statists.

This poster about confused statists.

The libertarian version of a sex fantasy.

Since I could only find three examples, does this mean libertarians are hopelessly dour and lacking in humor?

I think the answer is “no” and I think there are two reasons to justify that response. First, libertarians are always making fun of oafish and moronic government.

I like to think, for instance, that my UK-vs-US government stupidity contest contains some amusing satire.

Skeptics may respond that you can mock big government without being a libertarian, and that’s a fair point.

But this gives me an opportunity to list the second reason why it’s wrong to accuse libertarians of lacking a sense of humor. Simply stated, we have the ability to appreciate anti-libertarian humor. This not only shows that we have funny bones, but it also demonstrates that we have considerable confidence about the strength of our ideas.

So with that build-up, here’s an example of anti-libertarian humor I received from a fellow traveler in Illinois.

Libertarian 
Fire Dept

I think you’ll agree that this can be added to our collection of anti-libertarian humor.

P.S. Since I am a dorky libertarian, I can’t resist responding to the above cartoon by noting that we actually don’t need government fire departments. The folks at the Reason Foundation have been working on this issue for decades and have a study explaining the benefits of private fire departments.

But there’s a lot more evidence. Here’s what one expert wrote in 2012 for Cato Unbound.

…my town contracts out its entire fire department to the company Rural/Metro, a pioneer in privatized fire services. Their trucks are shiny, red, and full of water, just like a “traditional” fire department’s. Their firemen train just like their municipal counterparts do in neighboring jurisdictions. They respond to fire and EMS calls just like the government-run systems do. The main differences I’ve discerned are that: (1) their logo—which otherwise looks much like other fire department logos—notes the name of the company underneath the name of the town, and (2) workers are covered under a private sector 401(k) plan, so our town is not on the hook for a massive future pension payout. Neither of these differences is relevant from a service delivery standpoint.

And an article in Capitalism Magazine the same year pointed out that privatized fire protection exists in hundreds of communities.

…nearly half of Denmark’s municipalities contract with Group 4 Falck to provide firefighting and ambulance services. In America, more than 450 communities contract with Rural/Metro Corporation for fire protection service, EMS, or both. Unlike government fire services, which focus on fire response, Rural/Metro focuses on fire prevention. A former mayor of Scottsdale, Arizona, which has used Rural/Metro for more than two decades said, “Scottsdale citizens are offered a much better balance between response and prevention than is available in most communities.”

Why are so many communities looking at private options?

Most likely, it’s because unions have conspired with government officials to push labor costs to absurd levels, as humorously depicted is this somewhat off-color video.

P.P.S. Returning to the topic of humor, I have a serious request. Can anybody provide examples of self-deprecating humor by leftists?

I don’t think statists have much self-confidence in their ideas, so they probably don’t have much ability to poke at themselves, but I imagine there must be some examples.

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/more- amusing-anti-libertarian-humor/.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:50:40 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: tpaine (#82)

The key concepts of libertarianism have developed over many centuries.

And it has always failed because libertarians fail to realize that there has never been....and never will be....a government that functions according to their principles because it runs entirely contrary to human nature.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:53:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Gatlin (#83)

"Nothing is more true than the fact that libertarians and socialists are complicit in the undermining and destruction of our constitutional form of government. The only genuine difference between them is that the socialists are bright enough to know that's what they are up to. The libertarians are so blind, pig-brained, and self-absorbed they haven't clue they are destroying this nation. Libertarians are the socialists' useful idiots in the Marxist- Gramscian revolution." -Kevin Curry

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-03   19:54:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Gatlin (#78)

Gatlin and his flock

Silly sheep. At least you're good for wool.

Operation 40  posted on  2015-02-03   19:54:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Gatlin (#83)

Perhaps you missed this: ---

Key Concepts of Libertarianism

By David Boaz January 1, 1999

The key concepts of libertarianism have developed over many centuries. The first inklings of them can be found in ancient China, Greece, and Israel; they began to be developed into something resembling modern libertarian philosophy in the work of such seventeenth- and eighteenth-century thinkers as John Locke, David Hume, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine.

Individualism. Libertarians see the individual as the basic unit of social analysis. Only individuals make choices and are responsible for their actions. Libertarian thought emphasizes the dignity of each individual, which entails both rights and responsibility. The progressive extension of dignity to more people — to women, to people of different religions and different races — is one of the great libertarian triumphs of the Western world.

Individual Rights. Because individuals are moral agents, they have a right to be secure in their life, liberty, and property. These rights are not granted by government or by society; they are inherent in the nature of human beings. It is intuitively right that individuals enjoy the security of such rights; the burden of explanation should lie with those who would take rights away.

Spontaneous Order. A great degree of order in society is necessary for individuals to survive and flourish. It’s easy to assume that order must be imposed by a central authority, the way we impose order on a stamp collection or a football team. The great insight of libertarian social analysis is that order in society arises spontaneously, out of the actions of thousands or millions of individuals who coordinate their actions with those of others in order to achieve their purposes. Over human history, we have gradually opted for more freedom and yet managed to develop a complex society with intricate organization. The most important institutions in human society — language, law, money, and markets — all developed spontaneously, without central direction. Civil society — the complex network of associations and connections among people — is another example of spontaneous order; the associations within civil society are formed for a purpose, but civil society itself is not an organization and does not have a purpose of its own.

The Rule of Law. Libertarianism is not libertinism or hedonism. It is not a claim that “people can do anything they want to, and nobody else can say anything.” Rather, libertarianism proposes a society of liberty under law, in which individuals are free to pursue their own lives so long as they respect the equal rights of others. The rule of law means that individuals are governed by generally applicable and spontaneously developed legal rules, not by arbitrary commands; and that those rules should protect the freedom of individuals to pursue happiness in their own ways, not aim at any particular result or outcome.

Limited Government. To protect rights, individuals form governments. But government is a dangerous institution. Libertarians have a great antipathy to concentrated power, for as Lord Acton said, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Thus they want to divide and limit power, and that means especially to limit government, generally through a written constitution enumerating and limiting the powers that the people delegate to government. Limited government is the basic political implication of libertarianism, and libertarians point to the historical fact that it was the dispersion of power in Europe — more than other parts of the world — that led to individual liberty and sustained economic growth.

Free Markets. To survive and to flourish, individuals need to engage in economic activity. The right to property entails the right to exchange property by mutual agreement. Free markets are the economic system of free individuals, and they are necessary to create wealth. Libertarians believe that people will be both freer and more prosperous if government intervention in people’s economic choices is minimized.

The Virtue of Production. Much of the impetus for libertarianism in the seventeenth century was a reaction against monarchs and aristocrats who lived off the productive labor of other people. Libertarians defended the right of people to keep the fruits of their labor. This effort developed into a respect for the dignity of work and production and especially for the growing middle class, who were looked down upon by aristocrats. Libertarians developed a pre- Marxist class analysis that divided society into two basic classes: those who produced wealth and those who took it by force from others. Thomas Paine, for instance, wrote, “There are two distinct classes of men in the nation, those who pay taxes, and those who receive and live upon the taxes.” Similarly, Jefferson wrote in 1824, “We have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.” Modern libertarians defend the right of productive people to keep what they earn, against a new class of politicians and bureaucrats who would seize their earnings to transfer them to nonproducers.

Natural Harmony of Interests. Libertarians believe that there is a natural harmony of interests among peaceful, productive people in a just society. One person’s individual plans — which may involve getting a job, starting a business, buying a house, and so on — may conflict with the plans of others, so the market makes many of us change our plans. But we all prosper from the operation of the free market, and there are no necessary conflicts between farmers and merchants, manufacturers and importers. Only when government begins to hand out rewards on the basis of political pressure do we find ourselves involved in group conflict, pushed to organize and contend with other groups for a piece of political power.

Peace. Libertarians have always battled the age-old scourge of war. They understood that war brought death and destruction on a grand scale, disrupted family and economic life, and put more power in the hands of the ruling class — which might explain why the rulers did not always share the popular sentiment for peace. Free men and women, of course, have often had to defend their own societies against foreign threats; but throughout history, war has usually been the common enemy of peaceful, productive people on all sides of the conflict.

… It may be appropriate to acknowledge at this point the reader’s likely suspicion that libertarianism seems to be just the standard framework of modern thought — individualism, private property, capitalism, equality under the law. Indeed, after centuries of intellectual, political, and sometimes violent struggle, these core libertarian principles have become the basic structure of modern political thought and of modern government, at least in the West and increasingly in other parts of the world.

However, three additional points need to be made: first, libertarianism is not just these broad liberal principles. Libertarianism applies these principles fully and consistently, far more so than most modern thinkers and certainly more so than any modern government. Second, while our society remains generally based on equal rights and capitalism, every day new exceptions to those principles are carved out in Washington and in Albany, Sacramento, and Austin (not to mention London, Bonn, Tokyo, and elsewhere). Each new government directive takes a little bit of our freedom, and we should think carefully before giving up any liberty. Third, liberal society is resilient; it can withstand many burdens and continue to flourish; but it is not infinitely resilient. Those who claim to believe in liberal principles but advocate more and more confiscation of the wealth created by productive people, more and more restrictions on voluntary interaction, more and more exceptions to property rights and the rule of law, more and more transfer of power from society to state, are unwittingly engaged in the ultimately deadly undermining of civilization.

From Chapter 1, “The Coming Libertarian Age,” Libertarianism: A Primer, by David Boaz (New York: The Free Press, 1998). See also www.libertarianism.org.

David Boaz is executive vice president of the Cato Institute and author of Libertarianism: A Primer, from which this is excerpted.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   19:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: tpaine (#82)

Libertarianism is not just these broad liberal principles...

…it is a philosophical game played by those without either enough real-world experience of localized, non-state-actor tyranny, or enough awareness of history to understand the immaturity of their political worldview.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   19:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: tpaine (#87) (Edited)

Libertarians are comical.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   20:03:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Palmdale, ---- QUOTES KEVIN CURRY? (#85)

"Nothing is more true than the fact that libertarians and socialists are complicit in the undermining and destruction of our constitutional form of government. The only genuine difference between them is that the socialists are bright enough to know that's what they are up to. The libertarians are so blind, pig-brained, and self-absorbed they haven't clue they are destroying this nation. Libertarians are the socialists' useful idiots in the Marxist- Gramscian revolution." -Kevin Curry

Now you clowns really DO have me laughing.. --- Quoting one of the most well known idiot savants of free republic, kevin curry, takes the cake...

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   20:08:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Operation 40, Gilligan, Major Frank Burns (#64)

Do you have ulterior motives by doing this? Surely you wouldn't stoop so low as to report these violations under another name. Right?

Gilligan has probably been bugging somebody he knows in the intel communitah for a "job" to do -- "ridding the nation of libertarians." They obliged, telling him to grab them the equivolent of a cup of coffee, and "GO GIT 'EM!" So here he is, a secret agent for the the State.

To Gillgan: "How long before you start with the rude, flashing, oversized graphics?"

That depends on whether he's all tingly from watching an episode of 'The Golden Girls' and Bea Arthur.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-03   20:10:30 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: tpaine (#87)

The progressive extension of dignity to more people — to women, to people of different religions and different races — is one of the great libertarian triumphs of the Western world.

Pretending this and trying to take credit, libertarians are committing yet another of the great frauds of libertarianism.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   20:13:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Liberator, grandisland, -- and wet jokes (#91)

Bea Arthur.

Hey!! Don't get snippy... GrandIsland used to wet himself over Maude.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   20:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Gatlin, palmdale (#92)

---- yet another of the great frauds ---

Was kevin curry, palmeys hero...

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-03   20:21:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: tpaine (#87)

Indeed, after centuries of intellectual, political, and sometimes violent struggle, these core libertarian principles have become the basic structure of modern political thought and of modern government, at least in the West and increasingly in other parts of the world.

And after centuries, where does libertarianism stand today? We know that 99% of libertarianism is obviously untrue and unacceptable. It has never succeeded because the libertarian philosophy relies total on channeling attention away from hidden premises and misdirects them towards faulty generalizations and trick examples.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-03   20:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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