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Title: Chris Kyle, Author of American Sniper, Was a War Hero. He Was Also A Liar
Source:
slate.com
URL Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_ ... _lies_about_jesse_ventura.html
Published: Jan 20, 2015
Author: Mark Joseph Stern
Post Date: 2015-02-01 03:21:06 by Pericles
Keywords: None
Views: 32169
Comments: 108
American Liar
Why Jesse Ventura is likely to collect millions from Chris Kyle’s American Sniper.
By Mark Joseph Stern
Chris Kyle, author of the runaway best-seller American Sniper, was a military hero who killed 160 people during his four tours of duty in Iraq and is now the subject of an Oscar-nominated blockbuster. He was also a fabulist. Before his tragic murder in 2013, Kyle told a number of extremely dubious stories. In one tale, Kyle claimed he killed two carjackers at a gas station southwest of Dallas, and that his driver’s license directed local police officers who questioned him to contact the Department of Defense. Kyle also claimed he traveled to post-Katrina New Orleans with a sniper friend, set up his gun atop the Superdome, and picked off dozens of armed looters.
The 160 kills are confirmed by the Pentagon. But there are absolutely no records of, or witnesses to, the latter stories. They are, perhaps intentionally, unverifiable. But it wasn’t these fantastical tales of vigilante justice that got Kyle into legal trouble. It was another, much less exciting story—one that wasn’t just unverifiable, but verifiably false. That tale, conveyed in a mere three pages of American Sniper, has put Kyle’s widow on the hook for $1.845 million in damages. And it may soon make Kyle’s publishers wish they approached the veteran’s claims with great deal of skepticism.
Kyle’s legal difficulties emerged from a subchapter of American Sniper titled “Punching Out Scruff Face.” In it, Kyle describes beating up a former Navy SEAL (“Scruff Face”) after the SEAL claims American soldiers deserved to die in Iraq. Early drafts of the book identified the SEAL as Jesse Ventura, former governor of Minnesota and famed professional wrestler, but Kyle’s publishers removed the name for fear of a lawsuit. Nonetheless, in a radio interview following the book’s release, Kyle admitted that “Scruff Face” was Ventura, and he repeated the claim soon after on The O’Reilly Factor. American Sniper shot to the top of Amazon’s best-seller list, becoming a smash hit for its publisher, HarperCollins, selling more than 1.5 million copies by July of 2014.
There was, however, a problem: The Ventura story wasn’t true, and Ventura meant to prove it. So he took Kyle to trial, suing him—and, after he died, his estate—for defamation and unjust enrichment. In the United States, defamation cases are extremely difficult to win, thanks to the First Amendment. When allegedly defamatory statements pertain to a public figure, the plaintiff mustn’t just prove those statements were false. He has to prove the defendant made those statements with “actual malice”—that is, knowledge that they were false or with “reckless disregard” for their falsity. Very few defamation plaintiffs can make it over the high bar of actual malice.
Ventura made it. On July 29, 2014, a federal jury returned from six days of deliberations to award Ventura $1.845 million in damages—specifically, $500,000 for defamation and about $1.345 million for unjust enrichment. (In other words, Kyle unjustly profited from defaming Ventura, and so his estate must give Ventura some of that money.) Kyle’s widow, Taya Kyle, promptly filed for “judgment as a matter of law,” asking the trial judge to reverse’s the jury’s verdict because the jury clearly got it wrong. Failing that, she asked for an entirely new trial. The judge denied both requests, defending the jury’s verdict as legally and factually justifiable. Kyle’s widow is currently appealing the decision; her odds of winning appear quite low.
...snip...
This suit is the second of Ventura’s one-two punch, and from here, it looks like a knockout. During the first trial, Ventura’s attorneys uncovered records of HarperCollins’ negligence in fact-checking Kyle’s book, as well as evidence that HarperCollins specifically touted the Ventura story to drum up publicity. Kyle’s ghostwriters spoke with only one person who claimed to have witnessed the fight, a friend of Kyle’s who told a different version of the story that lacked Ventura’s offensive remarks. No one from HarperCollins contacted Ventura or his representatives to verify the story. And though Kyle claimed Ventura appeared at a SEAL graduation afterward with a black eye—where “everybody was laughing” and asking “Who beat the shit out of him?”—HarperCollins never asked a member of the graduating class whether they saw Ventura’s injury. (A photograph from the event shows a clear image of Ventura—with no black eye.)
It gets worse for HarperCollins. Despite the tenuous source of the Ventura story, HarperCollins quickly saw it as a publicity gold mine. After Kyle identified “Scruff Face” as Ventura in a radio interview on The Opie & Anthony Show, HarperCollins editor Peter Hubbard wrote in an email that the publicity from the story was “priceless.” HarperCollins publicist Sharon Rosenblum described the Ventura kerfuffle as “hot hot hot,” immediately arranging for Kyle to retell the tale on The O’Reilly Factor. Sales of American Sniper—which, up to that point, were fairly modest—spiked dramatically, apparently in conjunction with interest in the Ventura story. After the O’Reilly appearance, Ventura publicly denied Kyle’s accusations. Yet Rosenblum arranged for Kyle to tell the story again on The Opie & Anthony Show, and HarperCollins printed several new editions of the book that still featured the “Scruff Face” section. (It was finally removed after Ventura won his suit.)
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As Jesse has repeatedly proven.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
As Jesse has repeatedly proven. Yes, Kyle lied and Jesse got the court to have Kyle's estate pay him almost $2 million dollars.
"Stern is the Slate writer who last month fell for a hoax story written by a satire publication that publishes such articles as Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un Announce Openly Gay Relationship, Plan Global ‘Reign of Tyranny’ as New Power Couple." Just the sort of not very bright source a not very bright poster would turn to.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Jesse lied to become rich so he is respected by people who are conspiracy whackos, lefties and expats.
And Ventura was respected and believed enough by a jury and judge who awarded him $2 million of Kyle's money because Kyle libeled him. Meanwhile, that braintrust Kyle thought bringing a vet with PTSD to a shooting range was good therapy. God or Darwin passed judgement.
Jesse lied. So did O.J. You defend liars. You're an ignorant expat.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384176/justice-jesse-ventura-was-right- his-lawsuit-j-delgado Justice for Jesse: Ventura Was Right in His Lawsuit People beating up on The Body are ignoring facts and basic fairness. By A. J. Delgado, is a conservative writer and lawyer. She writes about politics and culture.
The requested page "/article/384176/justice-jesse-ventura-was-right-%20his- lawsuit-j-delgado" could not be found. If you were brighter, you might be able to post the correct link.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
July 30, 2014 4:54 PM Justice for Jesse: Ventura Was Right in His Lawsuit People beating up on The Body are ignoring facts and basic fairness. By A. J. Delgado I do all this over a smart phone - this website's script seems to want to mess up a perfectly good cut and paste of a URL. If you were smart you could google the story.
If you had more facts and fewer excuses, you would be less pitiable. If you were smart you could google the story. I did. I didn't say the article didn't exist. I only pointed you that you were bright enough to link it properly. Would you like some help?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
weaponsman.com/?p=17042 Taya Kyle and the kids are now broke because of Ventura! I hope someone is setting up a fund for them!” I don’t know where she got this strawman, because I haven’t seen it anywhere else. If someone said that, he or she is stupid. If Delgado made it up, Delgado is dishonest. We already know Delgado is dishonest, but we’re willing to be convinced she saw something like this from some dumb-ass, somewhere. It sure hasn’t characterized discussion in the public and private forums of the SOF world, at least the subset of them known to us.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=17042 From your own source. LOL!
Clearly I am making you look up articles. So making you read is not a bad thing in my book as you follow my wake.
Already knew about it. And you were so eager to pat yourself on the back. You're not very bright.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
A comment by a poster, DUH! You aren't very bright.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
The last claim is highly debatable if referring to the expat.
Wow, you are old. Any ability to use modern references not from the early 90s?
So you troll on how the link is working or not? Sad.
Is that a cry for help, lefty?
No feeding of trolls.
How often does a big braggart, notorious liar, and conspiracy-monger like Ventura actually prevail in a defamation case? Never. Except this time. Sometimes the courts do seem to insist that certain principles of law should be upheld, even if the public hates it. One notorious liar sues another notorious liar and wins. Where exactly is the downside? : )
Anything a homosexual says you have to verify. They are not to be trusted. I mean how can you trust someone who lies to themselves. The author is not credible.
Kyle wasn't cross examined. I used to give Ventura a little respect as I didn't agree with him much but he made a few points. I think Kyle kicked his ass.
I'm more in your corner. But to be honest none of us really know the truth because we weren't there. We just have opinions.
Then why no black eye in the grad photos of Jesse. Kyle insisted he had a black eye from the fight. Trying to fight a photograph like that is why Kyle's estate lost the case. And the only reason to include that story was to profit from publishing lies about Ventura. If the black eye is a lie, the rest of it becomes that much more suspect. And that is why Ventura, unsympathetic kook that he is, is going to prevail. It's not like the court is going to have any Ventura fanbois in it.
I used to give Ventura a little respect as I didn't agree with him much but he made a few points. I think Kyle kicked his ass. Kyle made a video deposition that lasted 5 hours for this case and in his own video deposition he got his own story wrong. The Jury saw that.
There is actual chain of evidence where the Harper Collins book promotion agent is said to tell Kyle work up the Ventura angle when the book was not selling and claiming that the attack on Ventura - identifying Ventura by name on interviews is what sold the book.
Woh. That really tipped the case in Ventura's favor. The jury almost had to find for him after that. I had no idea there was such blatant evidence against Kyle and his publisher.
www.sodahead.com/question/feed/4688022/atom/ Jesse Ventura Slams Chris Kyle, Says He was No Hero Because He was a Liar - But Jesse Has Done Some Lying of His Own That a**hole Jesse Ventura is in the news again, from his home in Baja he is saying he won't go to see American Sniper, that Chris Kyle is no hero because he is a liar. http://www.aol.com/article/2015/...kyle-is-no-hero/21136316/ It seems Jesse is quite the liar himself. In his own book, "No Time to Bleed," he constantly calls himself a SEAL, but won't answer questions about his time in Vietnam. From what I've read, his only decoration was the National Defense Service medal (which every recruit gets coming out of boot camp) and the Vietnam Service medal (given to every sailor who was on as ship in the waters off Vietnam), . Here's an excellent article by a former SEAL/UDT officer about the difference between the two, and whether Ventura was ever a SEAL. It seems that it is very unlikely he ever saw action in Vietnam. He went through UDT training in 1970 and the war ended in February, 1973. He was assigned to UDT 12 and none of the guys who served in that team remember him doing duty in Vietnam - no wonder he won't talk about it. Here's the cite and a few excerpts that are on point as to whether Ventura was ever a Navy SEAL: http://cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt.htm Trainees for the SEALs and UDTs completed the same fabled basic course conducted on the Strand; however, during and after the Vietnam War, SEALs underwent specialized training at such places as the U.S. Army Ranger and Special Forces schools. Frogmen never went near Rangers or Snake-eaters. The difference in training reflected the difference in missions: SEALs in platoons of 12 to 14 men went looking for the VC and NVA in the swamps, paddies, and jungles of Vietnam; UDTs in platoons of 22 men conducted hydrographic recons in advance of actual or anticipated Marine amphibious landings. Most of these recons were "admin," or unopposed by the enemy. UDTs mainly floated around the South China Sea on ships with Marine battalion landing teams as part of what's called an amphibious ready group or ARG. In recognition of the differing missions, the Navy classified frogmen as "5321s" and SEALs as "5326s." The SEALs and frogmen also had different unit cartoon totems: Freddie the Frog and Sammy the Seal. These are not distinctions without differences. No one from UDT during the Vietnam War would dare misrepresent himself as a SEAL. Consider this: SEAL Team One, with roughly the same number of men as UDT 12, had 34 killed during the war. I knew many of them. UDT 12 lost but a single man. 34:1. . . . . Still in search of an answer to the question of whether Jesse had ever been a SEAL or a frogman in the shit, I obtained a roster of UDT 12 that included his name. Looking down the roster, I saw Jesse and I had mutual acquaintances, one of whom was Artie Ruiz. Although Artie had never been a SEAL, he had been one of those rare frogmen who certainly had been in the shit. All you need do was take one look at his back, pockmarked with old shrapnel wounds, to know he'd been there. Artie had been dinged while single-handedly keeping the VC from swarming his disabled patrol boat. Every soul on board save one had been either killed or seriously wounded in an ambush. Artie, who is about the size of Audie Murphy and as soft-spoken, fought off the enemy with a handheld M-60 machine gun at a range of 25 yards. He got a Bronze Star to go with his Heart. Should have been a Navy Cross, but enlisted guys don't have a strong lobby with the Awards Board like officers do. I called Artie at his home in National City. "Yes, I knew Jesse and Jan," Artie said. "They were the Janos brothers. Jesse in those days was known as Jim 'the Dirty' Janos and his brother was Jan 'the Clean.' "Jan was a four-oh sailor. Squared away. Jim was a great guy, but he didn't care much about having a spiffy uniform or regulation haircut. He didn't believe much in showers, either. "Jim belonged to a motorcycle gang in I.B. The Mongols or Mescaleros or something. I'm not sure. But I remember how he used to come roaring up Highway 75 every morning before quarters, wearing his colors and torn Levi's, reared back on his Harley hog. He'd zoom around the asphalt grinder, do a wheelie or two, then park and shift into the uniform of the day - UDT swim trunks and blue 'n' gold T-shirt." Changing one set of colors for another? "You could say that. Then, after a day of fun in the sun, he'd shift again and tear up the road back to I.B. and the In Spot, a tittie-flop bar where he worked as a bouncer. Jim maintained order, but not too much. You had to get really outa line for Jim to toss you. But toss you he could. Jim wasn't as buff then as when he became Jesse 'the Body' Ventura, but he was on his way." Jesse ever in a SEAL Team? "Oh, no. Spent his entire time in Team 12. Never had a SEAL NEC." Could you explain about an NEC, what it means? "Means Navy enlisted classification. It's a code all enlisted guys have that tells what their warfare specialty is. UDT guys were 5321s and SEALs were 5326s. Had to serve in a SEAL Team for at least six months before you qualified as a 26." Jesse ever in the shit like you or Stony? "Oh, no. At least not that I heard of, and I probably would have known if he'd been in anything serious. But I don't hold that against him. He was a good teammate. Just a little loco." . . . . The talk turned to Jesse. I asked Ed if he'd heard of "the Body." "Yeah, I've seen him on TV. Quite a guy. I like his politics and I understand he was a SEAL. I didn't know him. Did you?" I told him what I knew of Jesse. "I am sorry to hear that. If he was only in UDT 12, he sure as hell wasn't a SEAL. Big difference between being in UDT 12 and SEAL One." I asked Ed if he thought Jesse could have received a transfer from UDT 12 to SEAL One during the war. "Sure. Could probably have put his chit in at morning quarters and been standing tall on the SEAL grinder by afternoon quarters." Quite by chance, I recently happened upon another old SEAL in a downtown deli. We'd been in Nam together and in UDT 11 after the war. He was one of several former SEALs who came to UDT 11 while I commanded the Team during the late '70s. Some of these SEALs referred to themselves as "the Junkyard Dogs." Not a sun-worshiper or bodybuilder in the bunch. But lots of Navy Crosses, Silver and Bronze Stars, and Purple Hearts - none cheap. My friend, whom I'll call Jake, is active in the retired community and said Jesse had been the main topic of discussion during a recent meeting of an organization called Old Frogs and SEALs. "Guys are of two minds," Jake said. "Some don't think he should be holding himself out as a SEAL, while others think it's okay. Say it's good publicity." What do you think? "I think the Teams got all the publicity they need. Don't need any more. I'm reading a book, Stolen Valor, that exposes men who lie or exaggerate about having fought in Nam with elite units. That's what Jesse's doing when he claims to have been a SEAL. He's trading on the valor of others. He hasn't earned the right to call himself a SEAL." So there it is. Does Jesse trade on the valor of others when he pretends to have been a SEAL? He styles himself an honest, uncomplicated man: what you see is what you get. He should set the record straight. Hell, nothing to be ashamed of about having been a frog. UDTs have a noble tradition. When Jesse was a frog, they jumped out of airplanes, locked out of submarines, and blew shit up. But frogs didn't often fight and die like SEALs did in Nam. 34:1." You decide - Chris Kyle received 2 Silver Stars, 5 Bronze Stars with Combat V, two Purple Hearts, one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal, and two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, while Jesse Ventura received a National Defense Service Medal and a Vietnam Service Medal -- which one is the Hero?
Jesse Ventura was awarded $500,000 on his defamation claim. He was awarded $1,345,477.25 on his unjust enrichment claim. When Chris Kyle died, the executor of his estate was substituted as the defendant. That was his wife. The district court reviewed the earlier proceedings in the document below before denying the estate's motion for judgment as a matter of law or a new trial. Defendant's appeal is pending before the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT Civ. No. 12-472 (RHK/JJK) MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER Jesse Ventura a/k/a James G. Janos, David Bradley Olsen, Court J. Anderson, John N. Bisanz, Jr., Henson & Efron, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Plaintiff. John P. Borger, Leita Walker, Charles F. Webber, Amy M. Gernon, Holly A. Miller, Faegre Baker Daniels LLP, Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Defendant. This matter is before the Court on Defendant’s Motion for Judgment as a Matter of Law or New Trial (Doc. No. 404). For the reasons that follow, the Motion will be denied. BACKGROUND Plaintiff is a well-known former wrestler, actor, and Governor of Minnesota, who served as a member of the Navy Special Forces Underwater Demolition/SEAL Teams during the Vietnam War. Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL sniper and author of an autobiography entitled American Sniper, the Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History (hereafter, “American Sniper”). The book, which was released - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 2 of 24 January 3, 2012, reached number one on the New York Times’ Bestseller list by January 29, 2012, and in June 2012, Warner Brothers purchased the rights to a film adaptation. In American Sniper, Kyle wrote a subchapter captioned “Punching Out Scruff Face” about an alleged altercation with Plaintiff. According to Kyle, the encounter took place at McP’s, a bar in Coronado, California, on October 12, 2006, during a wake for Kyle’s comrade, Mike Monsoor, who was killed in the line of duty. The subchapter reads as follows: AFTER THE FUNERAL WE WENT TO A LOCAL BAR FOR THE WAKE proper. As always, there were a bunch of different things going on at our favorite nightspot, including a small party for some older SEAL’s and UDT members who were celebrating the anniversary of their graduation. Among them was a celebrity I’ll call Scruff Face. Scruff served in the military; most people seem to believe he was a SEAL. As far as I know, he was in the service during the Vietnam conflict but not actually in the war. I was sitting there with Ryan and told him that Scruff was holding court with some of his buddies. “I’d really like to meet him,” Ryan said. “Sure.” I got up and went over to Scruff and introduced myself. “Mr. Scruff Face, I have a young SEAL over here who’s just come back from Iraq. He’s been injured but he’d really like to meet you.” Well, Scruff kind of blew us off. Still, Ryan really wanted to meet him, so I brought him over. Scruff acted like he couldn’t be bothered. All right. We went back over to our side of the bar and had a few more drinks. In the meantime, Scruff started running his mouth about the war and everything and anything he could connect to it. President Bush was an asshole. We were only over there because Bush wanted to show up his father. We were doing the wrong thing, killing men and women and children and murdering. And on and on. Scruff said he hates America and that’s why he moved to Baja California. 9/11 was a conspiracy. And on and on some more. The guys were getting upset. Finally, I went over and tried to get him to cool it. - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 3 of 24 “We’re all here in mourning,” I told him. “Can you just cool it? Keep it down.” “You deserve to lose a few,” he told me. Then he bowed up as if to belt me. I was uncharacteristically level-headed at that moment. “Look,” I told him, “why don’t we just step away from each other and go on our way?” Scruff bowed up again. This time he swung. Being level-headed and calm can last only so long. I laid him out. Tables flew. Stuff happened. Scruff Face ended up on the floor. I left. Quickly. I have no way of knowing for sure, but rumor has it he showed up at the BUD/S graduation with a black eye. While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News. Plaintiff commenced the instant action against Kyle in February 2012, asserting claims of defamation, misappropriation, and unjust enrichment. Kyle moved for partial summary judgment in the fall of 2012, but his Motion was denied. In February 2013, Kyle was killed by a fellow veteran, against whom criminal charges are currently pending in Texas. His wife was appointed executrix of his estate and substituted as the Defendant in this action in July 2013. She, too, moved for summary judgment at the conclusion of discovery, but her Motion also was denied. The case then proceeded to a jury trial in July 2014 on the three claims asserted in the Complaint. As the unjust-enrichment claim was an equitable one, the Court employed the jury in an advisory capacity only as to that claim. See Fed. R. Civ. P. - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 4 of 24 39(c)(1). The jury delivered a split verdict on the first two claims, finding for Plaintiff on the defamation claim (and awarding him $500,000 in damages) and for Defendant on the misappropriation claim. The jury also found in Plaintiff’s favor on the unjust-enrichment claim and assessed $1,345,477.25 in damages. The Court later adopted the jury’s verdict on the unjust-enrichment claim as its own. (See Doc. No. 391.) Defendant now argues she is entitled to judgment as a matter of law, or alternatively a new trial, on the defamation and unjust-enrichment claims. Her contentions are addressed in turn below. ANALYSIS [snip] The following provides an insight to the thoughts of the jury. http://www.startribune.com/local/269697941.html Article by: RANDY FURST , Star Tribune Key defense evidence may have shifted opinions the other way. [excerpt] Jurors had to decide the validity of the account, including the comments attributed to Ventura, that the United States was “killing men, women and children and murdering” in Iraq, that he “hates America” and that SEALS “deserve to lose a few.” While the former governor has made “outrageous” statements in the past, the juror could not believe the former governor would talk like that “at a wake for a fallen Navy SEAL.” Said the juror, “It might have been something along those lines or misinterpreted. It was hard for me to believe that you ‘deserve to lose a few’ is a direct quote.” The juror also found it compelling that the photos of Ventura taken in the days after the alleged barroom incident showed no bruises. Kyle, the juror pointed out, was over 6 feet tall, weighed 200 pounds and was in excellent condition, and the idea that he could punch Ventura and not leave a facial mark was difficult to grasp. If Ventura produced verified and time relevant photos of himself without bruising, I would find his evidence persuasive. Blood thinners cause one to exhibit bruises after very little bumping or hitting because it inhibits the clotting process. There are some of the pictures of Ventura that the jury saw here: They clearly show no injuries on Ventura's face, which is probably the deciding factor in whom the jury believed. Ventura's an ass and loud-mouthed idiot, but I'm afraid I agree with the jury that Kyle's story is less than believable. As a general matter, I was doubtful when Kyle claimed Ventura said, among a bunch of SEALs, “You deserve to lose a few.” That just seems out of character coming from the mouth of any SEAL/UDT member at any time. Snopes.com has a file on the three mentioned claims of Chirs Kyle; the alleged altercation with Jesse Ventura, the alleged shooting from the Superdome, and the alleged hijacking incident. http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/kyleclaims.asp Claim: American Sniper subject Chris Kyle shot dozens of looters after Hurricane Katrina, killed two attempted carjackers, and punched Jesse Ventura in the face. MOSTLY FALSE. [snip] - - - Kyle's widow claimed they planned to so donate. Had they done so, there would have been little estate for Ventura to claim over $1M from. http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/01/26/chris-kyle-american-sniper-facts
Which is why I said earlier that I would have to see proof that "all proceeds went to charity". People hear that and just stop asking questions apparently. Which is why these SEAL profiteers and their publishers and agents use this tactic. Kyle's book was floundering. No one was interested. So he ginned up some libels against Ventura, a few lies about killing two guys at a gas station, and his obvious lies about joining up with a SEAL buddy to snipe armed looters in NOLA during Katrina. And Fox News played a major role in promoting Kyle and his lies about Ventura. There is a reason for all this free book advertising. They are all Murdoch-owned. And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper. It's a Murdoch tabloid-style scam, start to finish. The marketing plan seems to have been to attract attention from a largely uninterested public. So Willam Morrow, Kyle's agent, and Murdoch's FNC all worked in tandem to promote the libels against Ventura, just to gin up controversy about it. The Left predictably fell for this strategy and created more controversy on Twitter/Facebook. And a movie destined for obscurity becomes a hit due solely to the controversy. We should never forget that Murdoch's real background is his expertise in yellow journalism and tabloids. And using his broad media empire to the full extent. He operates this way internationally, not just in the States.
I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.
Again, I think Kyle is being used by the FOX group for money and also for the politics of the whole Iraq war. Even now you have people on here defending the war and even claiming Saddam still had WMD! I mean that floors me. They old "smuggled into Syria" fantasy is alive and well. Bush himself stating there were no WMD is just ignored or rationalized. Is it because they can't admit being wrong? That they can't admit they were fooled by the people they were defending on the websites?
Yeah, deep denial. We shouldn't be so surprised. People irrationally reject such blatant contradictions on many topics. Bush and Cheney could slap them in the face viciously and yell "There was no WMD and Saddam didn't attack us on 9/11". And they would still mumble these same denials. And there is a likely explanation. As with the Obama voters in 2012 who should have turned on him because he is such a lousy ineffective and lawless president, there is such a thing as avoidance of buyer's remorse. And people who got sold on the Iraq invasion in that way are often working from guilt over supporting that doomed effort which had such a tragic ending for many young American soldiers who were killed or horribly maimed for life. So, to avoid acknowledging their own complicity and foolishness in being stampeded by Bush and the neocons, they flee into these fantasies and deep denial over the Iraq invasion and the WMD and 9/11. To do otherwise would be to admit their own responsibility for those wrecked and destroyed soldiers as well as the vast disaster that has unfolded across the Mideast as a result of regime change policy and its newer cousin, Arab Spring. Well, it is an explanation of sorts, eh? I guess I should have just said that people often refuse to admit they were wrong, even to themselves and even if they do know the truth and just prefer to lie to others and to themselves.
He was UDT 12 when he was in. UDT started in WW II and lasted through the early Eighties. SEALs started around 1965. Ventura was in UDT in the mid-Seventies. Both groups shared the same harsh BUDS training. The SEALs got a lot more and much broader training than the WW II style UDT guys did who were in the business of mining ships and ports and seaside factories and warehouses and being specialists in amphibious landings. Which is what Ventura's training for UDT was for. Others who did go on to serve in Vietnam did support amphibious landings most often. Ventura was only part of UDT 12, never the SEALs. I think there is some confusion over the overlap between the two programs as SEALs started small and grew to overtake and finally absorb the UDT organization over 20 years. And they always did share the same core training program. So UDTs do get included in ex-SEAL activities even if they weren't ever actual SEALs. Because they all did the terrifyng BUDS training. A very exclusive club. Anyway, that is my understanding of the UDT/SEAL timeline and when Ventura was in UDT.
Really? I thought the Navy had done away with UDT by the late 60's. SEALs started around 1965. I went to jump school with sailors wearing SEAL team patches on their fatigues in 1964. I had no idea what SEALS were,so I asked them about it. They were former UDT members who were transitioning over to the SEAL teams. Guys in the early to mid-20's that were already E-6's. That was rare in 64. Ventura was in UDT in the mid-Seventies. Maybe early 70's,but he was still on active duty with a UDT in the Philippines while the VN war was going on and the Navy was sending SEALS to the Delta in VN because he was asked to volunteer for a SEAL team,which included a 6 month tour in VN,and refused to volunteer.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
FWIW: Wiki: "In 1983, after additional SEAL training, the UDTs were re-designated as SEAL Teams or Swimmer Delivery Vehicle Teams (SDVTs). SDVTs have since been re-designated SEAL Delivery Vehicle Teams." Apparently, they still had at least a few UDT units active until '83 when the SEALs finally absorbed them. That sounds consistent with other pieces I've read about him. Not exactly a star-spangled military career as these things go.
I likewise ran into SEALS in the Sixties. After my active duty time I hooked up with a SF Reserve Unit. One of the members was a former SEAL instructor, and needless to say we learned how to swim. I'm not referring to is 3 or 4 laps around the pool, but 3 or 4 hours of continuous swimming the first night. I thought my arms were going to drop off.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Marcus Luttrell Reacts To Jesse Ventura Verdict In the video above, Luttrell, a Kyle buddy and fellow SEAL states flat out that Ventura is considered a "SEAL" alum and wears their Golden Trident. Also, you can see on his face despite the FOX girl trying to get Luttrel to attack Ventura that Luttrell realizes that Kyle lied and Ventura was right and the best think now is to let the issue go away in silence.
Monica Crowley is one of the more wretched FNC gals. Notice how she plugs Lone Survivor for him, just like all the FNC tools have done with that movie and with American Sniper. Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.
[TC #35] And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper. William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morrow_and_Company http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 22 of 24 HarperCollins is the publisher; it is a William Morrow imprint. http://www.harpercollins.com/9780062290793/american-sniper ISBN: 9780062290793
Nice sleuthing. I still think you have access to a few legal resources the rest of us don't. And you know how to use them. : ) I think Ventura must have had some pretty competent lawyers.
nolu chan survived that Ukrainian real estate dentist's attacks?
That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1. If Ventura was pro war the very same attackers of Ventura's SEAL Bonafides would be proclaiming him the greatest SEAL ever.
There are 205 homes in our gated community, and all had wood roofs. Previously we had never had a problem with the racoons, but that changed 3 years ago, when they started attacking the roofs almost every night. The situation was out of control, and night they would tear into two or three roofs. Roof repairs were running $150 to $500 each, and some of the retirees were clearly distressed. At a board meeting I agreed to take on the project, and the association purchased 4 traps for me to use. Racoons are extremely smart, and trapping them is not easy. I will not go into all the problems, but will say they are one of the meanest animals I have ever encountered. You can't take them out into the country and drop them off, because they will come back from 40 miles away. Your only option is to dispose of them, with a 22, which presents a problem because it's illegal to discharge a firearm within the city limits. Animal control was no help, because they were taking the animals half a mile away and releasing them. The raccoons were back home before me. Finally my buddy who owns a gun shop suggested I use rounds with no powder in them. They work great, as long as you didn't let the women in neighborhood know what was going on because they roll in love with little mass bandits. Finally, my wife made me quit. Last fall I met a new neighbor in the neighborhood, and was surprised to find he was aware my service record. Bill is approximately the same age as myself, and I was even more surprised when I found out he was former UDT. He offered to take over disposing of our furry bandits. It occurred to me today that he in all likelihood knew Jesse Ventura. I put a call into Bill, and I will see what he has to say about the situation.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
HimSEA himL himHist himory https://www.navysealmuseum.org/about-navy-seals/seal-history-the-naval-special-warfare-story/seal-history-first-airborne-frogmen
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
He may accept him as a SEAL (or same as) but the truth is that Ventura only served in UDT 12, a forerunner of the SEALs that developed the extreme BUDS training regimen. Those are the facts. You understand how this would happen. Over the years, the UDT guys thinned out in numbers and the remaining ones are just folded into the SEALs. And UDT vets were embraced by SEAL vets. They consider it a community with a code of honor, a very exclusive club.
I have some experience. Incredibly destructive. I rarely miss a chance to kill one living anywhere near me. You just know what they're going to do. I have an older second cousin who had a pack of coons break into his attic while he wintered in Texas. He came back and did a full repair. They tore right through the new plywood and roofing and set up house again. Then he repaired with that anti-rodent razor wire stuff. Well, they ripped through the roofing but that did stop them from getting in again. And the damage they can do! Sounds like a fun call for you either way. A good excuse to chat.
There was a major difference between UDT and SEALS. First they were UDT, and after receiving Airborne, Ranger, and SF training, then they were considered SEALS.. They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds. http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
VenturaWatch? LOL. Well, he is a notorious liar himself. That page does support pretty credibly what we've been saying that Ventura never served in Vietnam, lied about it publicly and had plenty of scandal about his statements about his service years. I like the part where it talks about the only evidence he served overseas was info on the UDT basketball team in Subic Bay. I'm not sure how many dangerous VietCong Jesse had to kill in Subic Bay.
Bill Sailsbury was a high ranking SEAL officer. "I also drew on my 16 years as a SEAL, that included a combat tour as officer-in-charge of SEAL Team 1, Detachment Golf, duty as executive officer of SEAL Team 2 during the war, and a stint as commanding officer of UDT 11 after the war."
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Then, the real deal. No doubt, Ventura made some enemies over the years, mostly with his big mouth. Had he kept his yap shut, the SEALs would overlook a lot of minor stuff. I don't think they started out hating on him though they never considered him to really be part of their elite veterans group. He trained for it but left the service, avoiding combat. Then he traded on his training and pretended he had served in combat and "hunted man" as though that was something SEALs do for fun and suggested that others had served dishonorably. You can see why there is some real animosity from some SEAL vets toward Ventura though many also try to include him in the community, no matter what. Ventura is not a sympathetic figure at all. But Kyle and his publisher still deliberately libeled him and conspired to do it as proven by documents and testimony. They libeled him just to gin up controversy and create a hit book and get a movie package.
They did libel him, but we don't know their motive.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
C'mon. Profits.
cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt_3.htm My excellent adventure as a SEAL began that very day before the sun had vanished beyond the Coronados. Fresh meat. Welcome aboard. Not all men from UDT were run-for-your-lifers. Many frogs later had their own excellent adventures as SEALs, and those who survived love to woof about it for fun and profit. Here's how one woofer, Rad Miller Jr., describes his metamorphosis from frog to SEAL in Whattaya Mean I Can't Kill 'Em?: "Although our base in Coronado was shared with SEAL Team 1 (they had half, UDT Teams 11 and 12 had the other half separated by a concrete wall), we didn't mix during working hours. We did party together though. Frogs were good. But SEALs were in a class by themselves. They were warriors, and had a mystique about them that said: 'Don't fool with me, I'll tear you a new asshole.' "I was attracted and impressed. On the one hand being a Frog was fun; on the other, there were also no real challenges ahead. "Then the clincher occurs that will change my life. I was hanging in the area filling dive tanks when I saw a platoon of SEALs all geared up for a training exercise they were just bristling with weapons. I go to the office and submit a transfer request. They need SEALs for Vietnam and my transfer is immediately approved--God help me now." Still in search of an answer to the question of whether Jesse had ever been a SEAL or a frogman in the shit, I obtained a roster of UDT 12 that included his name. Looking down the roster, I saw Jesse and I had mutual acquaintances, one of whom was Artie Ruiz. Although Artie had never been a SEAL, he had been one of those rare frogmen who certainly had been in the shit. All you need do was take one look at his back, pockmarked with old shrapnel wounds, to know he'd been there. Artie had been dinged while single-handedly keeping the VC from swarming his disabled patrol boat. Every soul on board save one had been either killed or seriously wounded in an ambush. Artie, who is about the size of Audie Murphy and as soft-spoken, fought off the enemy with a handheld M-60 machine gun at a range of 25 yards. He got a Bronze Star to go with his Heart. Should have been a Navy Cross, but enlisted guys don't have a strong lobby with the Awards Board like officers do. I called Artie at his home in National City. "Yes, I knew Jesse and Jan," Artie said. "They were the Janos brothers. Jesse in those days was known as Jim 'the Dirty' Janos and his brother was Jan 'the Clean.' "Jan was a four-oh sailor. Squared away. Jim was a great guy, but he didn't care much about having a spiffy uniform or regulation haircut. He didn't believe much in showers, either. "Jim belonged to a motorcycle gang in I.B. The Mongols or Mescaleros or something. I'm not sure. But I remember how he used to come roaring up Highway 75 every morning before quarters, wearing his colors and torn Levi's, reared back on his Harley hog. He'd zoom around the asphalt grinder, do a wheelie or two, then park and shift into the uniform of the day - UDT swim trunks and blue 'n' gold T-shirt." Changing one set of colors for another? "You could say that. Then, after a day of fun in the sun, he'd shift again and tear up the road back to I.B. and the In Spot, a tittie-flop bar where he worked as a bouncer. Jim maintained order, but not too much. You had to get really outa line for Jim to toss you. But toss you he could. Jim wasn't as buff then as when he became Jesse 'the Body' Ventura, but he was on his way." Jesse ever in a SEAL Team? "Oh, no. Spent his entire time in Team 12. Never had a SEAL NEC." Could you explain about an NEC, what it means? "Means Navy enlisted classification. It's a code all enlisted guys have that tells what their warfare specialty is. UDT guys were 5321s and SEALs were 5326s. Had to serve in a SEAL Team for at least six months before you qualified as a 26." Jesse ever in the shit like you or Stony? "Oh, no. At least not that I heard of, and I probably would have known if he'd been in anything serious. But I don't hold that against him. He was a good teammate. Just a little loco.
Not so sure I would agree with that if he had just had the class to stay truthful about his duty. Face it,being on a UDT team gave you plenty to brag about even if you never went into combat.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
That is the man I have been saying was a piss-poor commander whose bad tactical decisions lead to the deaths of all the men under his command,even though they tried to tell him it was a bad decision that would get them all killed.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Who wouldn't,given the psychic burden he carries ever day for the loss of his team? He should have listened to his NCO's,and he didn't. As a result,everybody but him died,and his life is forever altered by both the mental and the physical damage he suffered/suffers from. While I am quick to criticize his tactical command decisions,I have a great deal of sympathy for the man and what he has to suffer through every day.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
HorseHillary! I challenge you to find someone more anti-Bush than me. I flat out state that Ventura is only a SEAL in the broadest and most technical sense. He never once served on a SEAL Team,and if you check out the latest article I posted,you will see that at one time he was even claiming he "hunted men as a SEAL in VN" despite never having been on a SEAL team or ever going to VN.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I'm thinking the way to go would be to put on a new steel roof. They won't be able to chew and claw through that,and you get the added bonus of getting to sleep under a steel roof when it's raining. There is just something about the sound of rain hitting a steel roof that is so soothing it practically guarantees a good night's sleep.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
1st Group on Okie had a Scuba committee already in place and teaching UDT when I got there in early 65. I was friends with several of the cadre,but I had ZERO interest in diving. They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms. Besides using it for the SCUBA Committee,they also used it as a recovery vehicle for water jumps. The 1st had a lot of people wounded while TDY to VN in the 60's,and they had to make water jumps because of their wounds. It was this PT boat (named the "Green Beret") that Colonel "Splash" Kelley broke his leg/legs on while making water jumps to try to get his master blaster wings before going to VN to take command of the 5th SFG. The South China Sea had/has lots of sharks,so "Splash" (his new at that time nickname) was jumping a MC-1 maneuverable chute and pulling down on both forward risers to land close to the boat. They always had guys on decks with M-14's in case the sharks got active,but he wanted to limit his time in the water. In this case he ran right into the side of the boat and broke one or both legs. I can't remember which right now. BTW,years ago the US Navy was still looking for that boat. Seems like somehow or another it got "lost". I'm sure it is really and truly lost by now. Mostly likely it was worn out beyond repair and sank 2 decades ago.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Interesting.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
One would think. I think Ventura got used to talking a lot of smack hanging out in biker bars and as a pro wrestler. And he certainly traded on his elite military training throughout and into his little movie foray, appearing in Predator with Schwarzenegger. I never liked Ventura at all as wrestler or actor. I think he was elected governor in a state so miserably mismanaged that even he looked pretty good for a while.
Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II. Amazon: Collision With History: The Search For John F. Kennedy's PT 109
I think so,too.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Got a great coon story. A neighbor of mine was watching TV in his family room, where his wife had been complaining of a bad smell. Suddenly, the sheet rock wall behind his couch burst open and the source of the smell was revealed.. Turns out a mama coon in the attic had lost her baby down the stud wall cavity, went down to rescue it, and got stuck herself. Nature prevailed, and decomposition split open the sheet rock. My neighbor wanted me to do the repairs, but I was too busy..
That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president. It was their subtle (?) way of reminding him that he was in the Navy too,and the Navy needed money to operate and more Admirals to run things. Not sure how many times he used it,but IIRC,it did have a pink door for the Ladie's room. I seriously doubt Jackie Ho ever set foot on it,but Marilyn Monroe and others most likely did.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I don't get it. When you're in the military, how can it not be a possible outcome that only one survivor returns from a bad mission? The US had a number of combat episodes in Af-Pak where there were only one or two survivors from a vicious firefight at a forward base. You might assume that the odds are very very high against anything much less than a patrol group getting out of a heavy firefight because when your numbers fall below a certain number like a half dozen, the odds go way up there will be no survivors at all. But it seems to happen more than you would expect. I don't recall reading the same kinds of reports from Iraq fighting but it was a different kind of fighting there than the firebases and patrols in the Af-Pak back country.
He did have an actual presidential yacht. You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television? I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping. BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it.
I would also be too busy. Who am I kidding? Yeah, I'd be dumb enough to help. Complaining about the smell the whole time and gloved to the elbows. Hate cleaning up dead animals.
Lots of PTs were sold as surplus and converted into yachts. -- Somebody probably restored one for fun, and added another head for the ladies. --- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador. If memory serves, I remember reading something about special quarters having been set up for his wife and child on that boat. (Or did they even have a kid yet?)
You have never been in a combat arms branch of the military,or you would get it. The reason those men died were due to the poor tactical decisions he made as their team leader. His senior NCO's tried to tell him that if they did what he wanted to do chances are they would all die,and he ignored their advise and ordered them to obey his commands. They did,and they died because of it. Leaders are the ones that have to make these hard decisions,and in this case the decision he make cost the men under his command their lives. IF he had done as they suggested,they would have never been surrounded and killed. If you don't understand this,the best I can tell you to do is read the book and watch the movie.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
MacArthur was quite the little prince, wasn't he? Yet no one ever said anything about it. Apparently, he was held in very high regard. He must have been pretty charismatic in person. Even the old newreels give that impression of him.
IOW, he was a stubborn bonehead and wouldn't listen to his superiors. Now he is the ghost of his bad decision. Sounds depressing. No thanks. It would explain why he seemed heavily medicated though. He's getting eaten up inside.
He had a lot of stuff. Countless crap is given to presidents. You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television? Beats me. JFK liked SF,and he was the guy that authorized SF to wear Green Berets despite the wishes of the regular army,so it's possible he gave it to them to use for training. It's also possible somebody in SF saw the PT boat docked somewhere not being used,and decided to steal it to use for training and actual missions. We stole a LOT of equipment from the regular army,the USMC,the US Navy,and the USAF. We had to in order to complete our missions because we weren't authorized the equipment we needed under the official TO&E because the regular army didn't like us and they wanted to see us fail. ALL of the trucks and jeeps we had at FOB-2 were stolen from the regular army. Since on paper we did nothing but sit around camp and look at maps,the regular army didn't think we needed any,so they was no money in our budget to buy any. So we stole them. That's right,military units have budgets based on the size of the unit and their mission,and they have to use that money to buy the food,gas,diesel fuel,trucks,and everything else they need to function. You don't get that stuff just by asking or it. You have to/are supposed to use unit funds to buy it all. I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping. Do you seriously think Admirals spend much time at dockside watching boats? I'm not going to give you a quick course on how this sort of thing is done because it might hamper people needing to do it today,but rest assured there are ways you can pull this sort of thing off if you have the intelligence and the stones to go for it. People who have served a few years in the military and been around a little can probably understand how and why it happens,but it is practically impossible to explain this to someone who has never served because you don't understand how the system works. BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it. From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted. Of course,after he became president and began signing budget bills,the US Navy suddenly loved him. If he had wanted one,they would have given him a battleship.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You know what,that may have even been the same boat given to JFK that ended up on Okinawa. All I heard about the boat were rumors because nobody was ever going to admit to anything,but the rumors made sense. Especially given the JFK/SF connection.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction. That Kennedy had a playboy reputation (in the Navy and in the Senate and as president) didn't help the impression he created. Anyway, the Kennedy cult is still willing to debate to the death anyone who questions his awesome abilities as the commander of the only PT boat rammed and sunk by a destroyer in WW II though it was totally 100% not his fault. Or something like that. : )
No,he wouldn't listen to the advise of the NCO's under him that had more experience. He was the superior,not them. Most,but not all,junior officers have enough sense to listen to their senior NCO's for tactical advice,but not all of them. The ones that don't generally end up not having very successful careers. BUT....,at the end of the day it is the senior officer that makes the final decisions,and he gets all the glory or all the blame.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, how else can that system function? It is totally top-down. If you changed that, it wouldn't be a military.
Yes,but he was wearing 4 stars on his collar,and like every other man in uniform that wears 4 stars,nobody is going to complain much about anything he says or does. McArthur was just the most famous ego-maniac wearing a US uniform in WW-2. That doesn't mean he was the only one,though.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I honestly don't know how anyone can explain away a commander that was supposed to be on a combat patrol putting out a sea anchor to drift with no lights on and nobody awake on watch while he went to bed,and is then ran down by the very ship he was on patrol to sink. The only way I can picture it being worse would be if he somehow managed to sink the PT boat himself.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, they try to pretend he wasn't drifting (and sleeping off a drunk which is what his reputation was). Then they'll claim that a big destroyer hundreds of feet long could not be heard because its engines were located hundreds of feet away. It all starts to sound daft but these are Kennedy cultists so arguing with them is a waste of time. They don't expect to win the argument, they just refuse to admit it was indefensible. And that's all they expect to accomplish.
I should have pinged you on the other thread
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
Only our most famous egomaniac. I'd say Montgomery had him beat in spades. And de Gaulle was completely impossible for the Allies to work with. If I had been Eisenhower, I would have had de Gaulle shot. Well, I'm almost serious about that...
Now, now, we never stole anything, but the regs really loved our hats. :)
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Nobody wants to admit their Gods are flawed.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You'd think the Camelot myth was thoroughly punctured by now but apparently the cult won't die out until the last Kennedy lib is pushing up daisies.
True. I'd say Montgomery had him beat in spades. I'm not so sure of that. Monty got all the bad press in the US that McArthur didn't get because McArthur was a WW-1 hero and MoH winner,even though IIRC he put himself it for it and put himself in for another one for deserting the Philippines and fleeing to Australia. True,he was ordered to go to Australia,but since when is following orders to retreat a MoH event? And de Gaulle was completely impossible for the Allies to work with. He was even impossible for the French to work with. If I had been Eisenhower, I would have had de Gaulle shot. Well, I'm almost serious about that... Me too,and there is no "almost" about it. I might have even done it myself.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Ah, you are familiar with the Little Generalissimo, eh? LOL
True. We just temporarily borrowed a lot of stuff and forgot to take it back. And the truth is most of it wasn't really stolen by us. It was just reported as stolen by the senior NCO's or officers in the unit that had been in possession of it,and they traded it for captured NVA weapons,flags,uniforms,etc,etc,etc. Sometimes they just sold it outright. Other times they were ex-SF people themselves,or aware of and sympathetic to our supply problems,and just gave us stuff. They had to either report it stolen or report it as "lost/destroyed in combat" for the items that would be believable in order to get it off their books so they could get replacements. An example was Wille Parks was a old friend of mine from the 3rd and the 1st ,and later turned up as the supply sgt with the leg unit based at Dak To,which was our launch site. Willie spotted me in the leg messhall one day when I went in there to try to get a quart of milk,and called me over and introduced me to the mess sgt as his friend and fellow NCO (We wore sterile uniforms with no rank or name tags) . After that I was given anything I wanted any time I walked into that mess hall. Even if I had just came in from a week or more out in the jungle without washing or changing clothes. The mess sgt would seat me and my team in the NCO section of the mess hall and ask us all what we wanted to eat,and have someone bring it to us. You really have to spend a week or so drinking bomb crater water/puddle water/muddy river/rice paddy water with enough water purification pills in it to make your mouth burn to understand how soothing a quart of whole milk can be on the stomach. Not to mention the absolute joy of a fresh hot meal with coffee. Or taking a LONG hot shower back in camp and then going into your air-conditioned team room to fresh sheets that smelled good and then climb in between them and go to sleep without waking up every 15 minutes to listen. Pleasure is a VERY relative thing,and some of the greatest ones are the simplest ones. Lots of times the enlisted swine in conventional units were sympathetic to the local A-teams because these guys had warned them "off the books" of local enemy build-ups near their positions in time for them to prepare their defenses and ask for additional troops. That's the sort of thing that builds up a LOT of goodwill. So does doing stuff like inviting them to your team house for a beer blast and steak dinner. It was the conventional commanders that hated us,not the troops. The commanders hated us because we didn't come under their command,and they couldn't order us to run recons for them or steal our NCO's to make them platoon sgts. Regular Army officers just couldn't deal with a SF E-5 telling them "No" when they tried to order him to do something,or to "Bleep off!" if they started getting pushy. The fact that they didn't even have the authority to order us arrested for refusing to follow their orders really fried their fritters. They just couldn't compute that we had own own missions and responsibilities that were in no way connected with their efforts,and they took it personally. They also couldn't understand that a SF E-5 Buck Sgt might be filling the role of a platoon sgt as a part of his daily mission,and taking him away from that would leave a whole platoon of indigenous troops leaderless. Which made the company they were a part of combat ineffective due to being undermanned.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
One of my personal favorite "Kennedy Moments" happened 10-12 years ago when a conservative (for Mass) Republican in Mass legally changed his last name to "Kennedy" before running for a local office,and won by a landslide against the local Dim-backed candidate. Dims admitted on tv that they voted for him because of his name and thinking he was one of the "Royal Kennedy's",and the Dim Party tried to get the election overturned because of it. In a similar vein,I remember talking to people that admitted to voting for Boy Jorge because they thought he was his father. And people still wonder why America is dying.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Actually, both parties have pulled that little trick. And they wonder why voters get so cynical. BTW, those "Dems on TV" were just the legal backstop for sleazy Dim lawyers to try to get into court to overturn the election.
They did libel him, but we don't know their motive. C'mon. Profits. I also think the FOX folks may have had it in for Ventura. They seem to go after personalities in the media that maybe can sway their audiences away from their official party line. Ventura appeals to the right side of the spectrum more than the left and since his Alex Jones nut stuff also appeals to the right side of the spectrum coupled with his outright hostility to the Bush/Neocons - that made Ventura a threat to be taken down. Kyle was used by the FOX empire not only to make money but to push the pro Iraq war message.
Kyle was used by the FOX empire not only to make money but to push the pro Iraq war message. You have a running wild imagination.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Says the guy who believes Iraq had WMD - they just snuck them to Syria. That is a wild imagination right there!
Ventura shot his mouth off many times and FNC promptly covered it all like front page news. More of their manufacturing anger and turning it into ratings gold. Ventura was an obvious target to libel. Murdoch will lose money on the book. But laugh all the way to the bank with the massive profits from the movie. No doubt, Murdoch and his competitors will be looking for more ways to profit off libel. He's a damned tabloid publisher after all. I bet no one got fired at Harper over this. They probably got bonuses and promotions. And even the results of the lawsuit was used to fan more interest in the book and movie and up attendance and upcoming Bluray sales.
Not when there was solid intel to confirm it.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Not when there was solid intel to confirm it. No. There is no solid intel. Bush, the president of the US of A himself finally stated that Saddam did not have any weapons to tranfer. Join the reality based community.
Ventura is already on FOX doing is wrestling 'heel' bit - I think it was on Colmes radio show or TV show or whatever it is.
Not Bush, not Cheney, not Rice, not Powell. They all deny it. But guys out on teh interwebs know they're just lying...for what reason exactly? So they can look like war criminals and incompetents that lied the country into a war that has destabilized and destroyed the entire Mideast? We know the payoff for them ginning up the danger of Saddam's WMD. But where's the payoff for them lying about Saddam not having WMD?
You might recall I recently mentioned that I contacted a former UDT man in my neighborhood regarding Jesse Ventura's status as a SEAL. He just drove by my house and stopped. My neighbor chuckled and said, "I had an idea why you contacted me." He stated neither he nor Jesse Ventura are considered SEALS. It may be that many in the SEAL community give them that respect, because they were the forerunners of the SEALS. However, there is a big difference between the two groups. Former UDT are NOT SEALS.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Well then, straight from the horse's mouth.
I will be more than happy to give you his phone number so you can quiz him.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
UDT and SEALS can be members of the same association, but that does not make former UDT SEALS. https://www.udtseal.org/ Likewise, the following can join the Special Forces Association, but that does not make them Special Forces (Green Berets). a. 1st Special Service Force, August 1942 to December 1944. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Don’t pity the publishers too much, though. In the midst of this legal drama, the movie adaption of American Sniper has shattered box office records and brought in well over $100 million. HarperCollins is sure to make a killing off royalties from the film, and off sales from the new movie tie-in edition of American Sniper. Even if Ventura wins millions in his second lawsuit, the publishing house may well walk away from this debacle with a healthy profit remaining, just as Kyle’s widow will do. The moral of Kyle’s story, then: It pays to lie.
#2. To: Pericles (#1)
It pays to lie.
#3. To: Pericles (#0)
Author: Mark Joseph Stern
#4. To: Otter (#2)
It pays to lie.
#5. To: Otter (#2)
#6. To: Pericles (#4)
(Edited)
#7. To: Otter (#6)
(Edited)
#8. To: Pericles (#7)
#9. To: Otter (#8)
#10. To: Pericles (#9)
#11. To: Palmdale (#10)
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384176/justice-jesse-ventura-was-right-his-lawsuit-j-delgado
#12. To: Pericles (#11)
(Edited)
I do all this over a smart phone
#13. To: Pericles (#9)
#14. To: Otter (#13)
Hate to defend a crazy old man like Jesse (I watched his TV show, and I definitely stand by the ‘crazy’ bit). But in the interest of knowing the other side (without the histrionics of the lawyer’s article), here’s a bit of evidence that suggests Chris Kyle was a teller of tall tales: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/ Whether the Jesse story is more of the same or absolute truth, couldn’t say – but I suspect stories like this are one reason the jury went against a dead war hero and his widow, and in favor of a crazy old man like Jesse.
#15. To: Palmdale (#12)
#16. To: Pericles (#15)
Clearly I am making you look up articles.
#17. To: Pericles (#14)
From your own source. LOL!
#18. To: Otter (#17)
You aren't very bright.
#19. To: Palmdale (#18)
#20. To: Palmdale (#18)
#21. To: Palmdale (#16)
#22. To: Pericles (#21)
So you troll on how the link is working or not?
#23. To: Otter (#22)
#24. To: Pericles (#23)
#25. To: Pericles (#9)
Justice for Jesse: Ventura Was Right in His Lawsuit
#26. To: Pericles (#0)
#27. To: Pericles (#7)
#28. To: Otter (#8)
Jesse lied. So did O.J. You defend liars. You're an ignorant expat.
#29. To: A K A Stone (#27)
I think Kyle kicked his ass.
#30. To: A K A Stone (#27)
Kyle wasn't cross examined.
#31. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#29)
#32. To: Pericles (#31)
There is actual chain of evidence where the Harper Collins book promotion agent is said to tell Kyle work up the Ventura angle when the book was not selling and claiming that the attack on Ventura - identifying Ventura by name on interviews is what sold the book.
#33. To: Pericles (#31)
#34. To: A K A Stone, Pericles (#27)
CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 1 of 24
DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
Plaintiff,
Plaintiff
v.
Taya Kyle, as Executor of the Estate of Chris Kyle,
Defendant. Aug. 3: Juror describes how jury reached split decision in Jesse Ventura defamation trial
Updated: September 4, 2014 - 4:56 PM nerdbert
August 5, 2014 at 7:53 pm
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3524889.shtml?cat=1 Kyle File
7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.
#35. To: nolu chan, Pericles (#34)
7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.
While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News.
News Corp
#36. To: TooConservative (#35)
#37. To: TooConservative (#35)
#38. To: Pericles (#37)
They old "smuggled into Syria" fantasy is alive and well. Bush himself stating there were no WMD is just ignored or rationalized.
#39. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#36)
I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.
#40. To: TooConservative (#39)
UDT started in WW II and lasted through the early Eighties.
#41. To: sneakypete (#40)
(Edited)
Maybe early 70's,but he was still on active duty with a UDT in the Philippines while the VN war was going on and the Navy was sending SEALS to the Delta in VN because he was asked to volunteer for a SEAL team,which included a 6 month tour in VN,and refused to volunteer.
#42. To: sneakypete (#40)
I went to jump school with sailors wearing SEAL team patches on their fatigues in 1964. I had no idea what SEALS were,so I asked them about it. They were former UDT members who were transitioning over to the SEAL teams. Guys in the early to mid-20's that were already E-6's. That was rare in 64.
#43. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#39)
(Edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDW2HblKmg
#44. To: Pericles (#43)
(Edited)
#45. To: TooConservative, Pericles (#35)
[nc #34] Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book.
William Morrow and Company is an American publishing company founded by William Morrow in 1926. The company was acquired by Scott Foresman in 1967, sold to Hearst Corporation in 1981, and sold to News Corporation in 1999. The company is now an imprint of HarperCollins.
CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 19 of 24
Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”
Defendant first contends the Court improperly admitted evidence that HarperCollins was insured and such insurance would pay any damages awarded to Plaintiff. But in the Court’s view such evidence was relevant to the bias (or credibility) of HarperCollins’s witnesses.
Product Details
ISBN 10: 0062290797
Imprint: William Morrow
On Sale: 10/15/2013
Trimsize: 6 in (w) x 9 in (h) x 1.469 in (d)
Pages: 480
#46. To: nolu chan (#45)
(Edited)
William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins.
Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”
#47. To: TooConservative, nolu chan (#46)
#48. To: TooConservative (#44)
(Edited)
Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.
#49. To: Pericles, TooConservative, sneakypete, Redleghunter (#43)
#50. To: All (#49)
#51. To: Pericles (#48)
That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1.
#52. To: GarySpFC (#49)
Racoons are extremely smart, and trapping them is not easy. I will not go into all the problems, but will say they are one of the meanest animals I have ever encountered.
I put a call into Bill, and I will see what he has to say about the situation.
#53. To: TooConservative (#51)
#54. To: GarySpFC, Pericles (#53)
http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm
#55. To: TooConservative (#54)
(Edited)
#56. To: GarySpFC, Pericles (#55)
(Edited)
#57. To: TooConservative (#56)
Ventura is not a sympathetic figure at all. But Kyle and his publisher still deliberately libeled him and conspired to do it as proven by documents and testimony. They libeled him just to gin up controversy and create a hit book and get a movie package.
#58. To: GarySpFC (#57)
#59. To: Pericles (#48)
#60. To: TooConservative (#41)
That sounds consistent with other pieces I've read about him. Not exactly a star-spangled military career as these things go.
#61. To: Pericles (#43)
Marcus Luttrell Reacts To Jesse Ventura Verdict
#62. To: TooConservative (#44)
Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking.
#63. To: Pericles (#48)
that could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush....
#64. To: TooConservative, GarySpFC (#52)
I have an older second cousin who had a pack of coons break into his attic while he wintered in Texas. He came back and did a full repair. They tore right through the new plywood and roofing and set up house again. Then he repaired with that anti-rodent razor wire stuff. Well, they ripped through the roofing but that did stop them from getting in again. And the damage they can do!
#65. To: GarySpFC (#53)
They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds.
#66. To: sneakypete (#65)
#67. To: sneakypete (#60)
Face it,being on a UDT team gave you plenty to brag about even if you never went into combat.
#68. To: sneakypete (#65)
They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms.
Hard to imagine any working PT boat of WW II ever having a woman's bathroom.
With the support of the Kennedy family, best-selling National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Robert D. Ballard embarks on the search for PT-109, the boat made famous by commander John F. Kennedy's heroic rescue efforts following a harrowing collision with a Japanese destroyer in WWII. The companion to a major National Geographic Explorer television documentary Forty years after his death and 60 years after his first collision with history four miles off the island of Gizo in the South Pacific, John F. Kennedy and his story still inspires readers. JFK's heroic efforts to save his 11-man PT 109 (personal torpedo boat) crew including - swimming close to 80 miles over a period of six days through Japanese- and shark-infested waters, at one point even towing an injured crewman by a rope in his teeth for a two-mile swim- come to life interwoven through a comprehensive history of PT boats and the World War II campaign in the Solomon Islands. Collision with History combines first person presence on Ballard's search expedition for the wreckage, survivor accounts, and Kennedy family members' recollections to introduce the reader to the young war hero who would later become president. Covering subjects such as modern exploration, World War II, and personal heroism, Ballard weaves a tale that spans 60 years.
. . .
On a foggy August night in 1943, the future President's PT boat was rammed and sunk by a Japanese destroyer in the Solomon Islands. Two of the 13-man crew died in the action, which cut their boat in two. Kennedy acquitted himself well in the aftermath, assisting two injured crewmen, leading the survivors to nearby islands and eventually getting word to rescuers. In the tradition of his explorations of the Titanic and Bismarck wrecks, Ballard (with help from writer/consultant Morgan) attempts to set the strategic and tactical stage for Kennedy's war, but the result is rather disappointing. The text then jumps forward to the May 2002 expedition to locate the wreck. There is some material describing the geography of the Solomons and their modern inhabitants. Chapter 5, which is given over to the actual search and discovery, might have made a detailed magazine article but is scarcely sufficient to form the core of a book. Heavily illustrated with photos and National Geographic reconstructions, and with family remembrances and an introduction by Sen. Edward Kennedy, this coffee-table book feels rushed into print to accompany the promised television documentary. A marginal purchase unless the documentary generates demand. Edwin B. Burgess, U.S. Army Combined Arms Research Lib., Fort Leavenworth, KS Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.
About the Author
Robert D. Ballard, Ph.D., is president of the Institute for Exploration in Mystic, Conn. and the former director of the Center for Marine Exploration at Woods Hole, Mass and the author of several best-selling books, including Explorations, The Discovery of the Titanic, and The Discovery of the Bismarck.
#69. To: TooConservative (#67)
I think Ventura got used to talking a lot of smack hanging out in biker bars and as a pro wrestler.
#70. To: sneakypete, TooConservative, GarySpFC, yall (#64)
#71. To: TooConservative (#68)
Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II.
#72. To: sneakypete (#62)
Who wouldn't,given the psychic burden he carries ever day for the loss of his team?
#73. To: sneakypete (#71)
That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president.
#74. To: tpaine (#70)
My neighbor wanted me to do the repairs, but I was too busy..
#75. To: TooConservative (#68)
(Edited)
Hard to imagine any working PT boat of WW II ever having a woman's bathroom.
#76. To: TooConservative (#72)
I don't get it. When you're in the military, how can it not be a possible outcome that only one survivor returns from a bad mission?
#77. To: tpaine (#75)
--- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador.
#78. To: sneakypete (#76)
The reason those men died were due to the poor tactical decisions he made as their team leader. His senior NCO's tried to tell him that if they did what he wanted to do chances are they would all die,and he ignored their advise and ordered them to obey his commands. They did,and they died because of it.
If you don't understand this,the best I can tell you to do is read the book and watch the movie.
#79. To: TooConservative (#73)
He did have an actual presidential yacht.
#80. To: tpaine (#75)
-- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador. If memory serves, I remember reading something about special quarters having been set up for his wife and child on that boat. (Or did they even have a kid yet?)
#81. To: sneakypete (#79)
(Edited)
From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted.
#82. To: TooConservative (#78)
IOW, he was a stubborn bonehead and wouldn't listen to his superiors. Now he is the ghost of his bad decision.
#83. To: sneakypete (#82)
BUT....,at the end of the day it is the senior officer that makes the final decisions,and he gets all the glory or all the blame.
#84. To: TooConservative (#77)
MacArthur was quite the little prince, wasn't he? Yet no one ever said anything about it.
#85. To: TooConservative (#81)
The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction.
#86. To: sneakypete (#85)
I honestly don't know how anyone can explain away a commander that was supposed to be on a combat patrol putting out a sea anchor to drift with no lights on and nobody awake on watch while he went to bed,and is then ran down by the very ship he was on patrol to sink.
#87. To: TooConservative (#86)
#88. To: sneakypete (#84)
McArthur was just the most famous ego-maniac wearing a US uniform in WW-2.
#89. To: sneakypete (#79)
We stole a LOT of equipment from the regular army,the USMC,the US Navy,and the USAF. We had to in order to complete our missions because we weren't authorized the equipment we needed under the official TO&E because the regular army didn't like us and they wanted to see us fail. ALL of the trucks and jeeps we had at FOB-2 were stolen from the regular army. Since on paper we did nothing but sit around camp and look at maps,the regular army didn't think we needed any,so they was no money in our budget to buy any. So we stole them.
#90. To: TooConservative (#86)
It all starts to sound daft but these are Kennedy cultists so arguing with them is a waste of time. They don't expect to win the argument, they just refuse to admit it was indefensible.
#91. To: sneakypete (#90)
#92. To: TooConservative (#88)
Only our most famous egomaniac.
#93. To: sneakypete (#92)
Me too,and there is no "almost" about it. I might have even done it myself.
#94. To: GarySpFC (#89)
Now, now, we never stole anything, but the regs really loved our hats. :)
#95. To: TooConservative (#91)
You'd think the Camelot myth was thoroughly punctured by now but apparently the cult won't die out until the last Kennedy lib is pushing up daisies.
#96. To: sneakypete (#95)
(Edited)
One of my personal favorite "Kennedy Moments" happened 10-12 years ago when a conservative (for Mass) Republican in Mass legally changed his last name to "Kennedy" before running for a local office,and won by a landslide against the local Dim-backed candidate. Dims admitted on tv that they voted for him because of his name and thinking he was one of the "Royal Kennedy's",and the Dim Party tried to get the election overturned because of it.
#97. To: TooConservative, GarySpFC (#58)
Ventura is not a sympathetic figure at all. But Kyle and his publisher still deliberately libeled him and conspired to do it as proven by documents and testimony. They libeled him just to gin up controversy and create a hit book and get a movie package.
#98. To: Pericles (#97)
I also think the FOX folks may have had it in for Ventura. They seem to go after personalities in the media that maybe can sway their audiences away from their official party line. Ventura appeals to the right side of the spectrum more than the left and since his Alex Jones nut stuff also appeals to the right side of the spectrum coupled with his outright hostility to the Bush/Neocons - that made Ventura a threat to be taken down.
#99. To: GarySpFC (#98)
(Edited)
You have a running wild imagination.
#100. To: Pericles (#97)
I also think the FOX folks may have had it in for Ventura. They seem to go after personalities in the media that maybe can sway their audiences away from their official party line. Ventura appeals to the right side of the spectrum more than the left and since his Alex Jones nut stuff also appeals to the right side of the spectrum coupled with his outright hostility to the Bush/Neocons - that made Ventura a threat to be taken down.
#101. To: Pericles (#99)
Says the guy who believes Iraq had WMD - they just snuck them to Syria. That is a wild imagination right there!
#102. To: GarySpFC (#101)
Says the guy who believes Iraq had WMD - they just snuck them to Syria. That is a wild imagination right there!
#103. To: TooConservative (#100)
Ventura shot his mouth off many times and FNC promptly covered it all like front page news. More of their manufacturing anger and turning it into ratings gold.
#104. To: Pericles, GarySpFC (#102)
No. There is no solid intel. Bush, the president of the US of A himself finally stated that Saddam did not have any weapons to tranfer. Join the reality based community.
#105. To: TooConservative, Pericles, Sneakypete, Redleghunter, *SOCOM* (#104)
(Edited)
#106. To: GarySpFC (#105)
He stated neither he nor Jesse Ventura are considered SEALS.
#107. To: TooConservative (#106)
Well then, straight from the horse's mouth.
#108. To: TooConservative (#106)
(Edited)
b. OSS Detachment 101, April 1942 to September 1945.
c. OSS Jedburgh Detachments, May 1944 to May 1945.
d. OSS Operational Groups, May 1944 to May 1945.
e. OSS Maritime Unit, April 1942 to September 1945.
f. 6th Army Special Reconnaissance Unit (Alamo Scouts), February 1944 to September 1945.
g. 8240th Army Unit, June 1950 to July 1953.
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