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Title: Chris Kyle, Author of American Sniper, Was a War Hero. He Was Also A Liar
Source: slate.com
URL Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_ ... _lies_about_jesse_ventura.html
Published: Jan 20, 2015
Author: Mark Joseph Stern
Post Date: 2015-02-01 03:21:06 by Pericles
Keywords: None
Views: 32254
Comments: 108

American Liar

Why Jesse Ventura is likely to collect millions from Chris Kyle’s American Sniper.

By Mark Joseph Stern

Chris Kyle, author of the runaway best-seller American Sniper, was a military hero who killed 160 people during his four tours of duty in Iraq and is now the subject of an Oscar-nominated blockbuster. He was also a fabulist. Before his tragic murder in 2013, Kyle told a number of extremely dubious stories. In one tale, Kyle claimed he killed two carjackers at a gas station southwest of Dallas, and that his driver’s license directed local police officers who questioned him to contact the Department of Defense. Kyle also claimed he traveled to post-Katrina New Orleans with a sniper friend, set up his gun atop the Superdome, and picked off dozens of armed looters.

The 160 kills are confirmed by the Pentagon. But there are absolutely no records of, or witnesses to, the latter stories. They are, perhaps intentionally, unverifiable. But it wasn’t these fantastical tales of vigilante justice that got Kyle into legal trouble. It was another, much less exciting story—one that wasn’t just unverifiable, but verifiably false. That tale, conveyed in a mere three pages of American Sniper, has put Kyle’s widow on the hook for $1.845 million in damages. And it may soon make Kyle’s publishers wish they approached the veteran’s claims with great deal of skepticism.

Kyle’s legal difficulties emerged from a subchapter of American Sniper titled “Punching Out Scruff Face.” In it, Kyle describes beating up a former Navy SEAL (“Scruff Face”) after the SEAL claims American soldiers deserved to die in Iraq. Early drafts of the book identified the SEAL as Jesse Ventura, former governor of Minnesota and famed professional wrestler, but Kyle’s publishers removed the name for fear of a lawsuit. Nonetheless, in a radio interview following the book’s release, Kyle admitted that “Scruff Face” was Ventura, and he repeated the claim soon after on The O’Reilly Factor. American Sniper shot to the top of Amazon’s best-seller list, becoming a smash hit for its publisher, HarperCollins, selling more than 1.5 million copies by July of 2014.

There was, however, a problem: The Ventura story wasn’t true, and Ventura meant to prove it. So he took Kyle to trial, suing him—and, after he died, his estate—for defamation and unjust enrichment. In the United States, defamation cases are extremely difficult to win, thanks to the First Amendment. When allegedly defamatory statements pertain to a public figure, the plaintiff mustn’t just prove those statements were false. He has to prove the defendant made those statements with “actual malice”—that is, knowledge that they were false or with “reckless disregard” for their falsity. Very few defamation plaintiffs can make it over the high bar of actual malice.

Ventura made it. On July 29, 2014, a federal jury returned from six days of deliberations to award Ventura $1.845 million in damages—specifically, $500,000 for defamation and about $1.345 million for unjust enrichment. (In other words, Kyle unjustly profited from defaming Ventura, and so his estate must give Ventura some of that money.) Kyle’s widow, Taya Kyle, promptly filed for “judgment as a matter of law,” asking the trial judge to reverse’s the jury’s verdict because the jury clearly got it wrong. Failing that, she asked for an entirely new trial. The judge denied both requests, defending the jury’s verdict as legally and factually justifiable. Kyle’s widow is currently appealing the decision; her odds of winning appear quite low.

...snip...

This suit is the second of Ventura’s one-two punch, and from here, it looks like a knockout. During the first trial, Ventura’s attorneys uncovered records of HarperCollins’ negligence in fact-checking Kyle’s book, as well as evidence that HarperCollins specifically touted the Ventura story to drum up publicity. Kyle’s ghostwriters spoke with only one person who claimed to have witnessed the fight, a friend of Kyle’s who told a different version of the story that lacked Ventura’s offensive remarks. No one from HarperCollins contacted Ventura or his representatives to verify the story. And though Kyle claimed Ventura appeared at a SEAL graduation afterward with a black eye—where “everybody was laughing” and asking “Who beat the shit out of him?”—HarperCollins never asked a member of the graduating class whether they saw Ventura’s injury. (A photograph from the event shows a clear image of Ventura—with no black eye.)

It gets worse for HarperCollins. Despite the tenuous source of the Ventura story, HarperCollins quickly saw it as a publicity gold mine. After Kyle identified “Scruff Face” as Ventura in a radio interview on The Opie & Anthony Show, HarperCollins editor Peter Hubbard wrote in an email that the publicity from the story was “priceless.” HarperCollins publicist Sharon Rosenblum described the Ventura kerfuffle as “hot hot hot,” immediately arranging for Kyle to retell the tale on The O’Reilly Factor. Sales of American Sniper—which, up to that point, were fairly modest—spiked dramatically, apparently in conjunction with interest in the Ventura story. After the O’Reilly appearance, Ventura publicly denied Kyle’s accusations. Yet Rosenblum arranged for Kyle to tell the story again on The Opie & Anthony Show, and HarperCollins printed several new editions of the book that still featured the “Scruff Face” section. (It was finally removed after Ventura won his suit.)

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#1. To: All (#0)

Don’t pity the publishers too much, though. In the midst of this legal drama, the movie adaption of American Sniper has shattered box office records and brought in well over $100 million. HarperCollins is sure to make a killing off royalties from the film, and off sales from the new movie tie-in edition of American Sniper. Even if Ventura wins millions in his second lawsuit, the publishing house may well walk away from this debacle with a healthy profit remaining, just as Kyle’s widow will do. The moral of Kyle’s story, then: It pays to lie.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   3:22:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Pericles (#1)

It pays to lie.

As Jesse has repeatedly proven.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   3:24:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Otter (#2)

It pays to lie.

As Jesse has repeatedly proven.

Yes, Kyle lied and Jesse got the court to have Kyle's estate pay him almost $2 million dollars.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   3:27:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Pericles (#4) (Edited)

Jesse lied to become rich so he is respected by people who are conspiracy whackos, lefties and expats.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   3:41:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Otter (#6) (Edited)

And Ventura was respected and believed enough by a jury and judge who awarded him $2 million of Kyle's money because Kyle libeled him. Meanwhile, that braintrust Kyle thought bringing a vet with PTSD to a shooting range was good therapy. God or Darwin passed judgement.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   3:49:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Pericles (#7)

Kyle wasn't cross examined.

I used to give Ventura a little respect as I didn't agree with him much but he made a few points.

I think Kyle kicked his ass.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-02-01   8:10:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A K A Stone, Pericles (#27)

Jesse Ventura was awarded $500,000 on his defamation claim. He was awarded $1,345,477.25 on his unjust enrichment claim. When Chris Kyle died, the executor of his estate was substituted as the defendant. That was his wife. The district court reviewed the earlier proceedings in the document below before denying the estate's motion for judgment as a matter of law or a new trial. Defendant's appeal is pending before the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 1 of 24

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA

Civ. No. 12-472 (RHK/JJK)
Plaintiff,

MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER

Jesse Ventura a/k/a James G. Janos,
Plaintiff
v.
Taya Kyle, as Executor of the Estate of Chris Kyle,
Defendant.

David Bradley Olsen, Court J. Anderson, John N. Bisanz, Jr., Henson & Efron, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Plaintiff.

John P. Borger, Leita Walker, Charles F. Webber, Amy M. Gernon, Holly A. Miller, Faegre Baker Daniels LLP, Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Defendant.

This matter is before the Court on Defendant’s Motion for Judgment as a Matter of Law or New Trial (Doc. No. 404). For the reasons that follow, the Motion will be denied.

BACKGROUND

Plaintiff is a well-known former wrestler, actor, and Governor of Minnesota, who served as a member of the Navy Special Forces Underwater Demolition/SEAL Teams during the Vietnam War. Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL sniper and author of an autobiography entitled American Sniper, the Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History (hereafter, “American Sniper”). The book, which was released

- - -

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 2 of 24

January 3, 2012, reached number one on the New York Times’ Bestseller list by January 29, 2012, and in June 2012, Warner Brothers purchased the rights to a film adaptation.

In American Sniper, Kyle wrote a subchapter captioned “Punching Out Scruff Face” about an alleged altercation with Plaintiff. According to Kyle, the encounter took place at McP’s, a bar in Coronado, California, on October 12, 2006, during a wake for Kyle’s comrade, Mike Monsoor, who was killed in the line of duty. The subchapter reads as follows:

AFTER THE FUNERAL WE WENT TO A LOCAL BAR FOR THE WAKE proper.

As always, there were a bunch of different things going on at our favorite nightspot, including a small party for some older SEAL’s and UDT members who were celebrating the anniversary of their graduation. Among them was a celebrity I’ll call Scruff Face.

Scruff served in the military; most people seem to believe he was a SEAL. As far as I know, he was in the service during the Vietnam conflict but not actually in the war.

I was sitting there with Ryan and told him that Scruff was holding court with some of his buddies.

“I’d really like to meet him,” Ryan said.

“Sure.” I got up and went over to Scruff and introduced myself.

“Mr. Scruff Face, I have a young SEAL over here who’s just come back from Iraq. He’s been injured but he’d really like to meet you.”

Well, Scruff kind of blew us off. Still, Ryan really wanted to meet him, so I brought him over. Scruff acted like he couldn’t be bothered.

All right.

We went back over to our side of the bar and had a few more drinks. In the meantime, Scruff started running his mouth about the war and everything and anything he could connect to it. President Bush was an asshole. We were only over there because Bush wanted to show up his father. We were doing the wrong thing, killing men and women and children and murdering.

And on and on. Scruff said he hates America and that’s why he moved to Baja California. 9/11 was a conspiracy.

And on and on some more.

The guys were getting upset. Finally, I went over and tried to get him to cool it.

- - -

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 3 of 24

“We’re all here in mourning,” I told him. “Can you just cool it? Keep it down.”

“You deserve to lose a few,” he told me. Then he bowed up as if to belt me.

I was uncharacteristically level-headed at that moment.

“Look,” I told him, “why don’t we just step away from each other and go on our way?”

Scruff bowed up again. This time he swung.

Being level-headed and calm can last only so long. I laid him out.

Tables flew. Stuff happened. Scruff Face ended up on the floor.

I left.

Quickly.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but rumor has it he showed up at the BUD/S graduation with a black eye.

While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News.

Plaintiff commenced the instant action against Kyle in February 2012, asserting claims of defamation, misappropriation, and unjust enrichment. Kyle moved for partial summary judgment in the fall of 2012, but his Motion was denied. In February 2013, Kyle was killed by a fellow veteran, against whom criminal charges are currently pending in Texas. His wife was appointed executrix of his estate and substituted as the Defendant in this action in July 2013. She, too, moved for summary judgment at the conclusion of discovery, but her Motion also was denied.

The case then proceeded to a jury trial in July 2014 on the three claims asserted in the Complaint. As the unjust-enrichment claim was an equitable one, the Court employed the jury in an advisory capacity only as to that claim. See Fed. R. Civ. P.

- - -

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 4 of 24

39(c)(1). The jury delivered a split verdict on the first two claims, finding for Plaintiff on the defamation claim (and awarding him $500,000 in damages) and for Defendant on the misappropriation claim. The jury also found in Plaintiff’s favor on the unjust-enrichment claim and assessed $1,345,477.25 in damages. The Court later adopted the jury’s verdict on the unjust-enrichment claim as its own. (See Doc. No. 391.)

Defendant now argues she is entitled to judgment as a matter of law, or alternatively a new trial, on the defamation and unjust-enrichment claims. Her contentions are addressed in turn below.

ANALYSIS

[snip]

The following provides an insight to the thoughts of the jury.

http://www.startribune.com/local/269697941.html

Aug. 3: Juror describes how jury reached split decision in Jesse Ventura defamation trial

Article by: RANDY FURST , Star Tribune
Updated: September 4, 2014 - 4:56 PM

Key defense evidence may have shifted opinions the other way.

[excerpt]

Jurors had to decide the validity of the account, including the comments attributed to Ventura, that the United States was “killing men, women and children and murdering” in Iraq, that he “hates America” and that SEALS “deserve to lose a few.”

While the former governor has made “outrageous” statements in the past, the juror could not believe the former governor would talk like that “at a wake for a fallen Navy SEAL.” Said the juror, “It might have been something along those lines or misinterpreted. It was hard for me to believe that you ‘deserve to lose a few’ is a direct quote.”

The juror also found it compelling that the photos of Ventura taken in the days after the alleged barroom incident showed no bruises.

Kyle, the juror pointed out, was over 6 feet tall, weighed 200 pounds and was in excellent condition, and the idea that he could punch Ventura and not leave a facial mark was difficult to grasp.

If Ventura produced verified and time relevant photos of himself without bruising, I would find his evidence persuasive. Blood thinners cause one to exhibit bruises after very little bumping or hitting because it inhibits the clotting process.

https://www.popehat.com/2014/07/29/jury-finds-jesse-venturas-reputation-susceptible-to-harm/#comment-1246984

nerdbert
August 5, 2014 at 7:53 pm

There are some of the pictures of Ventura that the jury saw here:
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3524889.shtml?cat=1

They clearly show no injuries on Ventura's face, which is probably the deciding factor in whom the jury believed. Ventura's an ass and loud-mouthed idiot, but I'm afraid I agree with the jury that Kyle's story is less than believable.

As a general matter, I was doubtful when Kyle claimed Ventura said, among a bunch of SEALs, “You deserve to lose a few.” That just seems out of character coming from the mouth of any SEAL/UDT member at any time.

Snopes.com has a file on the three mentioned claims of Chirs Kyle; the alleged altercation with Jesse Ventura, the alleged shooting from the Superdome, and the alleged hijacking incident.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/kyleclaims.asp

Kyle File

Claim: American Sniper subject Chris Kyle shot dozens of looters after Hurricane Katrina, killed two attempted carjackers, and punched Jesse Ventura in the face.

MOSTLY FALSE.

[snip]

- - -

Kyle's widow claimed they planned to so donate. Had they done so, there would have been little estate for Ventura to claim over $1M from.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/01/26/chris-kyle-american-sniper-facts

7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-02-02   1:44:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: nolu chan, Pericles (#34)

7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.

Which is why I said earlier that I would have to see proof that "all proceeds went to charity".

People hear that and just stop asking questions apparently. Which is why these SEAL profiteers and their publishers and agents use this tactic.

While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News.

Kyle's book was floundering. No one was interested. So he ginned up some libels against Ventura, a few lies about killing two guys at a gas station, and his obvious lies about joining up with a SEAL buddy to snipe armed looters in NOLA during Katrina. And Fox News played a major role in promoting Kyle and his lies about Ventura. There is a reason for all this free book advertising. They are all Murdoch-owned.

News Corp

  • 22 TV Stations including Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Washington DC, Minneapolis, Houston, Orlando, Phoenix and 2 in New York.
  • Outlets include Fox Broadcasting, Fox News, Fox Kids, Fox Sports, Health Network, FX, National Geographic, TV Guide Channel, Gold Channel.
  • Radio properties include Fox Sports Radio.
  • Newspapers and Magazines include the New York Post, TV Guide, The Weekly Standard.
  • Publishers include Harper Collins, Regan Books, Amistad Books, William Morrow & Co., News America Marketing.
  • Music studios include Festival Records, Mushroom Records.
  • Properties include the Los Angeles Dodgers, Los Angeles Kings, Los Angeles Lakers, New York Knicks, New York Rangers.

And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper.

It's a Murdoch tabloid-style scam, start to finish.

The marketing plan seems to have been to attract attention from a largely uninterested public. So Willam Morrow, Kyle's agent, and Murdoch's FNC all worked in tandem to promote the libels against Ventura, just to gin up controversy about it.

The Left predictably fell for this strategy and created more controversy on Twitter/Facebook. And a movie destined for obscurity becomes a hit due solely to the controversy.

We should never forget that Murdoch's real background is his expertise in yellow journalism and tabloids. And using his broad media empire to the full extent. He operates this way internationally, not just in the States.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   5:25:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: TooConservative (#35)

I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-02   10:22:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#36)

I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.

He was UDT 12 when he was in.

UDT started in WW II and lasted through the early Eighties.

SEALs started around 1965. Ventura was in UDT in the mid-Seventies.

Both groups shared the same harsh BUDS training. The SEALs got a lot more and much broader training than the WW II style UDT guys did who were in the business of mining ships and ports and seaside factories and warehouses and being specialists in amphibious landings. Which is what Ventura's training for UDT was for. Others who did go on to serve in Vietnam did support amphibious landings most often.

Ventura was only part of UDT 12, never the SEALs. I think there is some confusion over the overlap between the two programs as SEALs started small and grew to overtake and finally absorb the UDT organization over 20 years. And they always did share the same core training program.

So UDTs do get included in ex-SEAL activities even if they weren't ever actual SEALs. Because they all did the terrifyng BUDS training. A very exclusive club.

Anyway, that is my understanding of the UDT/SEAL timeline and when Ventura was in UDT.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   11:00:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#39) (Edited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDW2HblKmg

Marcus Luttrell Reacts To Jesse Ventura Verdict

In the video above, Luttrell, a Kyle buddy and fellow SEAL states flat out that Ventura is considered a "SEAL" alum and wears their Golden Trident.

Also, you can see on his face despite the FOX girl trying to get Luttrel to attack Ventura that Luttrell realizes that Kyle lied and Ventura was right and the best think now is to let the issue go away in silence.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-02   12:52:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Pericles (#43) (Edited)

Monica Crowley is one of the more wretched FNC gals.

Notice how she plugs Lone Survivor for him, just like all the FNC tools have done with that movie and with American Sniper.

Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   13:24:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: TooConservative (#44) (Edited)

Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.

That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1. If Ventura was pro war the very same attackers of Ventura's SEAL Bonafides would be proclaiming him the greatest SEAL ever.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-02   15:34:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Pericles (#48)

That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1.

He may accept him as a SEAL (or same as) but the truth is that Ventura only served in UDT 12, a forerunner of the SEALs that developed the extreme BUDS training regimen. Those are the facts.

You understand how this would happen. Over the years, the UDT guys thinned out in numbers and the remaining ones are just folded into the SEALs. And UDT vets were embraced by SEAL vets. They consider it a community with a code of honor, a very exclusive club.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   16:50:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: TooConservative (#51)

There was a major difference between UDT and SEALS. First they were UDT, and after receiving Airborne, Ranger, and SF training, then they were considered SEALS.. They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds.

http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   17:23:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: GarySpFC (#53)

They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds.

1st Group on Okie had a Scuba committee already in place and teaching UDT when I got there in early 65. I was friends with several of the cadre,but I had ZERO interest in diving.

They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms.

Besides using it for the SCUBA Committee,they also used it as a recovery vehicle for water jumps. The 1st had a lot of people wounded while TDY to VN in the 60's,and they had to make water jumps because of their wounds.

It was this PT boat (named the "Green Beret") that Colonel "Splash" Kelley broke his leg/legs on while making water jumps to try to get his master blaster wings before going to VN to take command of the 5th SFG.

The South China Sea had/has lots of sharks,so "Splash" (his new at that time nickname) was jumping a MC-1 maneuverable chute and pulling down on both forward risers to land close to the boat. They always had guys on decks with M-14's in case the sharks got active,but he wanted to limit his time in the water. In this case he ran right into the side of the boat and broke one or both legs. I can't remember which right now.

BTW,years ago the US Navy was still looking for that boat. Seems like somehow or another it got "lost". I'm sure it is really and truly lost by now. Mostly likely it was worn out beyond repair and sank 2 decades ago.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:57:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: sneakypete (#65)

They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms.

Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II.

Amazon: Collision With History: The Search For John F. Kennedy's PT 109

With the support of the Kennedy family, best-selling National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Robert D. Ballard embarks on the search for PT-109, the boat made famous by commander John F. Kennedy's heroic rescue efforts following a harrowing collision with a Japanese destroyer in WWII. The companion to a major National Geographic Explorer television documentary Forty years after his death and 60 years after his first collision with history four miles off the island of Gizo in the South Pacific, John F. Kennedy and his story still inspires readers. JFK's heroic efforts to save his 11-man PT 109 (personal torpedo boat) crew including - swimming close to 80 miles over a period of six days through Japanese- and shark-infested waters, at one point even towing an injured crewman by a rope in his teeth for a two-mile swim- come to life interwoven through a comprehensive history of PT boats and the World War II campaign in the Solomon Islands. Collision with History combines first person presence on Ballard's search expedition for the wreckage, survivor accounts, and Kennedy family members' recollections to introduce the reader to the young war hero who would later become president. Covering subjects such as modern exploration, World War II, and personal heroism, Ballard weaves a tale that spans 60 years.

. . .

On a foggy August night in 1943, the future President's PT boat was rammed and sunk by a Japanese destroyer in the Solomon Islands. Two of the 13-man crew died in the action, which cut their boat in two. Kennedy acquitted himself well in the aftermath, assisting two injured crewmen, leading the survivors to nearby islands and eventually getting word to rescuers. In the tradition of his explorations of the Titanic and Bismarck wrecks, Ballard (with help from writer/consultant Morgan) attempts to set the strategic and tactical stage for Kennedy's war, but the result is rather disappointing. The text then jumps forward to the May 2002 expedition to locate the wreck. There is some material describing the geography of the Solomons and their modern inhabitants. Chapter 5, which is given over to the actual search and discovery, might have made a detailed magazine article but is scarcely sufficient to form the core of a book. Heavily illustrated with photos and National Geographic reconstructions, and with family remembrances and an introduction by Sen. Edward Kennedy, this coffee-table book feels rushed into print to accompany the promised television documentary. A marginal purchase unless the documentary generates demand. Edwin B. Burgess, U.S. Army Combined Arms Research Lib., Fort Leavenworth, KS Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.

About the Author

Robert D. Ballard, Ph.D., is president of the Institute for Exploration in Mystic, Conn. and the former director of the Center for Marine Exploration at Woods Hole, Mass and the author of several best-selling books, including Explorations, The Discovery of the Titanic, and The Discovery of the Bismarck.
Hard to imagine any working PT boat of WW II ever having a woman's bathroom.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:39:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: TooConservative (#68)

Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II.

That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president.

It was their subtle (?) way of reminding him that he was in the Navy too,and the Navy needed money to operate and more Admirals to run things.

Not sure how many times he used it,but IIRC,it did have a pink door for the Ladie's room. I seriously doubt Jackie Ho ever set foot on it,but Marilyn Monroe and others most likely did.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   21:51:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: sneakypete (#71)

That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president.

He did have an actual presidential yacht.

You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television?

I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping.

BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:58:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: TooConservative (#73)

He did have an actual presidential yacht.

He had a lot of stuff. Countless crap is given to presidents.

You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television?

Beats me. JFK liked SF,and he was the guy that authorized SF to wear Green Berets despite the wishes of the regular army,so it's possible he gave it to them to use for training.

It's also possible somebody in SF saw the PT boat docked somewhere not being used,and decided to steal it to use for training and actual missions. We stole a LOT of equipment from the regular army,the USMC,the US Navy,and the USAF. We had to in order to complete our missions because we weren't authorized the equipment we needed under the official TO&E because the regular army didn't like us and they wanted to see us fail. ALL of the trucks and jeeps we had at FOB-2 were stolen from the regular army. Since on paper we did nothing but sit around camp and look at maps,the regular army didn't think we needed any,so they was no money in our budget to buy any. So we stole them.

That's right,military units have budgets based on the size of the unit and their mission,and they have to use that money to buy the food,gas,diesel fuel,trucks,and everything else they need to function. You don't get that stuff just by asking or it. You have to/are supposed to use unit funds to buy it all.

I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping.

Do you seriously think Admirals spend much time at dockside watching boats?

I'm not going to give you a quick course on how this sort of thing is done because it might hamper people needing to do it today,but rest assured there are ways you can pull this sort of thing off if you have the intelligence and the stones to go for it.

People who have served a few years in the military and been around a little can probably understand how and why it happens,but it is practically impossible to explain this to someone who has never served because you don't understand how the system works.

BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it.

From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted.

Of course,after he became president and began signing budget bills,the US Navy suddenly loved him. If he had wanted one,they would have given him a battleship.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   22:41:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: sneakypete (#79) (Edited)

From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted.

The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction. That Kennedy had a playboy reputation (in the Navy and in the Senate and as president) didn't help the impression he created.

Anyway, the Kennedy cult is still willing to debate to the death anyone who questions his awesome abilities as the commander of the only PT boat rammed and sunk by a destroyer in WW II though it was totally 100% not his fault. Or something like that.     : )

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:51:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: TooConservative (#81)

The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction.

I honestly don't know how anyone can explain away a commander that was supposed to be on a combat patrol putting out a sea anchor to drift with no lights on and nobody awake on watch while he went to bed,and is then ran down by the very ship he was on patrol to sink.

The only way I can picture it being worse would be if he somehow managed to sink the PT boat himself.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   23:03:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 85.

#86. To: sneakypete (#85)

I honestly don't know how anyone can explain away a commander that was supposed to be on a combat patrol putting out a sea anchor to drift with no lights on and nobody awake on watch while he went to bed,and is then ran down by the very ship he was on patrol to sink.

Well, they try to pretend he wasn't drifting (and sleeping off a drunk which is what his reputation was).

Then they'll claim that a big destroyer hundreds of feet long could not be heard because its engines were located hundreds of feet away.

It all starts to sound daft but these are Kennedy cultists so arguing with them is a waste of time. They don't expect to win the argument, they just refuse to admit it was indefensible. And that's all they expect to accomplish.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02 23:15:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 85.

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