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Title: Does time pass?
Source: MIT News
URL Source: http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/book-brad-skow-does-time-pass-0128
Published: Jan 28, 2015
Author: Peter Dizikes
Post Date: 2015-01-30 14:00:33 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 18731
Comments: 57

“If you walk into a cocktail party and say, ‘I don’t believe that time passes,’ everyone’s going to think you’re completely insane,” says Brad Skow, an associate professor of philosophy at MIT.

He would know: Skow himself doesn’t believe time passes, at least not in the way we often describe it, through metaphorical descriptions in which we say, as he notes, “that time flows like a river, or we move through time the way a ship sails on the sea.”

Skow doesn’t believe time is ever in motion like this. In the first place, he says, time should be regarded as a dimension of spacetime, as relativity theory holds — so it does not pass by us in some way, because spacetime doesn’t. Instead, time is part of the uniform larger fabric of the universe, not something moving around inside it.

Now in a new book, “Objective Becoming,” published by Oxford University Press, Skow details this view, which philosophers call the “block universe” theory of time.

In one sense, the block universe theory seems unthreatening to our intuitions: When Skow says time does not pass, he does not believe that nothing ever happens. Events occur, people age, and so on. “Things change,” he agrees.

However, Skow believes that events do not sail past us and vanish forever; they just exist in different parts of spacetime. (Some physics students who learn to draw diagrams of spacetime may find this view of time intuitive.) Still, Skow’s view of time does lead to him to offer some slightly more unusual-sounding conclusions.

For instance: We exist in a “temporally scattered” condition, as he writes in the new book.

“The block universe theory says you’re spread out in time, something like the way you’re spread out in space,” Skow says. “We’re not located at a single time.”

Spotlighting the alternatives

In “Objective Becoming,” Skow aims to convince readers that things could hardly be otherwise. To do so, he spends much of the book considering competing ideas about time — the ones that assume time does pass, or move by us in some way. “I was interested in seeing what kind of view of the universe you would have if you took these metaphors about the passage of time very, very seriously,” Skow says.

In the end, Skow finds these alternatives lacking, including one fairly popular view known as “presentism,” which holds that only events and objects in the present can be said to exist — and that Skow thinks defies the physics of spacetime.

Skow is more impressed by an alternative idea called the “moving spotlight” theory, which may allow that the past and future exist on a par with the present. However, the theory holds, only one moment at a time is absolutely present, and that moment keeps changing, as if a spotlight were moving over it. This is also consistent with relativity, Skow thinks — but it still treats the present as being too distinct, as if the present were cut from different cloth than the rest of the universal fabric.

“I think the theory is fantastic,” Skow writes of the moving spotlight idea. “That is, I think it is a fantasy. But I also have a tremendous amount of sympathy for it.” After all, the moving spotlight idea does address our sense that there must be something special about the present.

“The best argument for the moving spotlight theory focuses on the seemingly incredible nature of what the block universe theory is saying about our experience in time,” Skow adds.

Still, he says, that argument ultimately “rests on a big confusion about what the block universe theory is saying. Even the block universe theory agrees that … the only experiences I’m having are the ones I’m having now in this room.” The experiences you had a year ago or 10 years ago are still just as real, Skow asserts; they’re just “inaccessible” because you are now in a different part of spacetime.

That may take a chunk of, well, time to digest. But by treating the past, present, and future as materially identical, the theory is consistent with the laws of physics as we understand them. And at MIT, that doesn’t sound insane at all.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 48.

#1. To: cranky (#0)

Does time pass?

To answer the question, we first have to define what time IS.

The answer depends entirely on the definition.

Time may not even EXIST. It doesn't exist unless we can precisely define it.

I've never seen a definition of "time" that wasn't simply circular.

The word "time" turns out to be like the word "existence": you can only define it in terms of itself.

(Try to define "existence", and you will swiftly find that you cannot do it without using the words "to be" or "being". But then try to define "to be", and you can't do it without using the word "exist".

You end up chasing your tail and realize that you CAN'T define either existence/being or time other than circularly.

Everything ultimately comes back to the definition of the verb "To be".

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-30   15:25:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

It doesn't exist unless we can precisely define it.

That's just plain silly.

Time exists independent of humans or any human definition.

Even when there are no more humans, time will elapse.

There may not be anything to mark its passing but pass it will.

cranky  posted on  2015-01-30   16:43:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: cranky (#6)

That's just plain silly.

Time exists independent of humans or any human definition.

If we were talking about something tangible and visible, like matter, or energy, or even space, this would be very easy to assert.

Time, however, is not tangible. It doesn't move anything. It can't be measured.

We're not "measuring time" when we watch a spring unwind or a beat cycle. We're counting things out. It is we, in our minds, who view what is happening TO and WITH a concrete object: a spring, or an energy wave-form, as indicative of something else invisible that is "moving" unseen.

With "time" we are dealing with a concept that we made up to describe something that we think we see.

Our heart beats, and our bodies grow and then weaken and die. These things are so, physical realities. But to describe these physical realities, we create an entity to describe the "force", or intangible "thing" that is "moving".

Ockham's Razor - the original one - was that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. The idea of "time" certainly SEEMS to describe something, some pressure that moves things forward in sequence. Certainly it is a useful variable in algebraic calculations. But that doesn't mean that it actually exists.

After all, the square root of -4 is 2i, but "i" is imaginary. It is useful algebraically, to be sure, but it doesn't represent anything that actually EXISTS in the real world.

Time seems to exist, but it cannot be shown to. Sequentialism exists. That we can see and experience. And when sequential things are placed side by side, they move relatively fast or slow compared one to the other. That does not mean that there is a supreme factor, "time", existing as a real THING, ethereally pushing things along. Perhaps there is nothing there, and "time" is like "i", an imaginary number, measuring an imaginary "thing", that doesn't exist at all other than as a term in an algebraic expression.

Algebra is not reality. It merely models reality. "i" doesn't really exist. And perhaps "t" doesn't either. It's a model for sequentialism, a useful fiction, but not a separate "thing".

And for that matter so may "space" be. We use physical yardsticks to measure distance between objects. We call the distance "something". But really, the distance is literally nothing.

Something can be DONE with this nothing, though: you can fill it up. So it exists in physical reality, if only as "zero".

But time may be like "the ether", something that seemed so logical, but that apparently doesn't really exist at all.

Things move sequentially, and because of entropy most reactions and processes are one way. A plant cannot "ungrow", not because there's an "arrow of time" nudging it along, but because once it grows it actually IS something: matter and energy bound in space. And those things cannot simply dematerialize. There isn't a "backwards".

What I am writing is not "silly". It's not overthinking either.

I'm making a legitimate point. Just because people BELIEVE something exists and insist it does, doesn't mean it actually DOES. Just because "i" is algebraically useful doesn't mean that it's actually REAL. "i" is imaginary. And maybe so is "t".

"T" may merely be a mathematical McGuffin that lets us assign a value, v, to the relationship between two things.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-30   17:43:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#8)

It can't be measured

Elapsed time can be measured.

cranky  posted on  2015-01-30   19:39:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: cranky (#13)

Elapsed time can be measured.

Not really.

What you are "measuring" is the rotations of an electric motor, or the unwinding of a spring.

You've taken an object with a cyclical behavior, drawn an arbitrary set of marks around the edge, and placed a pointer on the rotating axle or the spring-unwinding control mechanism. This gives you an artbitary number based on the cycle speed of the object on which you've placed it.

You can compare that to other cycling things and set a standard to relate sequences to sequences, but you're not actually measuring the passage of time: time is not causing the spring to move or the motor to cycle. Rather, you're ascribing the mechanical fact of rotation past arbitrary numeric indicators to the imaginary thing that you're trying to "measure".

The same thing happens in the sky. A set of 12 star patterns rotate cyclically across the sky. This cycle is predicable, and certain weather patterns recur every year when those certain stars are in the sky, due to the correlation between those stars' presence and the tilt of the earth relative to the Sun.

But those constellations up there are not CAUSING anything. They're a different cycle, running in parallel to your sun cycle. You can relate the one to the other, but there's no content to the relationship.

Unless of course you're an astrologer. THen you think there's this thing that is somehow reaching out from the stars that CAUSES the behavior of things on earth.

Coincidence is mistaken for causation, and because the correlation appears to be perfect, the causation seems clear. But it's still just coincidence.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-31   0:25:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13, cranky (#19)

Elapsed time can be measured.

Not really.

Obviously you have never been early or late for anything as these concepts do not exist in the real world.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-31   0:29:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: SOSO (#20)

The concepts exist, but they are relative concepts. Things cycle along, we assign value to a certain cycle, and then call that concept "time". All that it is is observation of sequence. It's not an actual THING that DOES anything.

People burnt their children to Molech once. The burning was certainly real enough to the children. But though the effects of the actions taken were very real, the burnings for Molech were burnings, there was nevertheless probably not really any Molech.

People gave meaning that had real world consequences to an agreed-upon figment of their imagination.

So it may also be with time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-31   0:34:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

So it may also be with time.

Whether time is real or not is irrelevant as the physical world, if not the Universe, as man knows it would not physically function without the concept of time. Yes, of course time is relative but as you noted measuremenst of time is relative to some physical phenomena, be it movement of a spring or atomic motion. Such measuremets are expressed as something (e.g. - rotations) per time increment (e.g. second). How much time must pass for light emanating from the Sun to reach the Earth? That is a very real thing even if the construct to express it may be imperfect to define the essence of time. The speed of light has meaning. But perhaps you allow that light may not be real either.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-31   0:46:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: SOSO (#25)

The speed of light is a relative property of light that assumes that the mechanical cycle whose transit we subdivide into equal units and call "time" really ARE equal units. The only way we can "know" that is by comparing to other cycling things. Spring clocks have the weakness that the de-tension of the spring is not uniform. Electric clocks have the weakness that motors speed or slow slightly (or a lot) based on fluctuation in currents and time lags in capacitor discharges. One can maintain "steady current", but one cannot retail PERFECTLY steady current. Only "steady enough for our purposes". Atomic clocks have the weakness that the speed of atomic vibration cycles are affected by the intensity of gravity, and gravity fluctuates.

All we can do to set ANY of our clocks is compare one rotating or de-tensing or vibrating cycle to another.

And in every case, this comparison is one physical thing doing something to another physical thing doing something. What is absent is any REAL thing that is being measured by their fluctuations.

Planets and asteroids unknown are whirling around unknown stars outside of our vision (probably), and each could be a clock (if something or someone chose to use it as such).

But none of these things are actually measuring anything real. They're all just vibrating and cycling, and we call the relationship between the cycles "t". We call the square root of -4, 2i, and that lets us play with things mathematically, but there is no "i", really. It's a useful fiction.

Billions of dollars were made watching men wave stick and shout "Avada kedavra" in thick English accents, with imaginary green bolts of death shooting therefrom. The cash profit was real enough, and those "avada kedavras" produced them. But only because of the effect on people's minds. There was no REAL avada kedrava, there's not REAL "i", and while I agree that "t" is a very useful concept, what it is, is a mathematical relationship between objects referred back to objects in motion, and set quite arbitrarily. It's not a real THING the way, say, magnetic force is real.

It may be useful to see time as an ever rolling stream bearing things away. But there's no evidence that there's actually a stream of anything. "T" is probably just a mathematical relationship of one thing to another.

Pie is real, and round. But pi is just a mathematical relationship of proportions. There's no real pi out there forcing a pie into a certain shape.

Time is not wearing things out. There's no external thing there doing the wearing.

It's a useful mathematical relationship, but it's not a FORCE the way electromagnetism is.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-31   8:12:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

The speed of light is a relative property of light that assumes that the mechanical cycle whose transit we subdivide into equal units and call "time" really ARE equal units........................

Tell that to God who tells us that He created the Universe and everything in it in 6 days then rested on the seventh. Ever wonder about what He planned for the 8th day and thereafter?

It's a useful mathematical relationship, but it's not a FORCE the way electromagnetism is."

I don't recall saying that it was a force. But I will be happy to hear your explanation as why in the Universe known to man nothing gets younger.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-31   14:08:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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