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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: So, you claim to be a Born Again Christian
Source: ChristianPatriot.com
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 23, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-01-23 12:29:48 by BobCeleste
Keywords: Salvation, Christianity
Views: 33792
Comments: 90

Friday, January 23, 2015 Remember me,

Salvation, John 3:3

So, you claim to be a Born Again Christian, fine, but are you?

Are you one of the many, who while professing to be Born Again find nothing wrong with homosexual sex? Are you amongst the 49% who believe there is nothing wrong with two people living together outside of marriage? Are you part of the one out of three that find the killing of a baby trapped in the womb to be morally acceptable? Are you part of the group that believe that Jesus is your friend and not your master? Are you one of the over 50% who say the Jesus did not live a sinless life, deny the virgin birth, or deny absolute truth of the Bible? Well, if you said yes to any of the above, you are not Saved and going to hell.

Let me paraphrase John 3:3 for you, "Be Born Again or go to hell!" Yes that is a perfect paraphrase of John 3:3.

Now let's look at the Greek word philos, pronounced fee'-los, it means dear, i.e. a friend. It is found 27 times in the New Testament, in not one of those verses is it found in reference to Jesus, not once do we find anyone in the New Testament calling Jesus "friend". Not one of the Apostles call the Lord friend. James, the half brother of the Lord referred to himself as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ". Not James, the half brother of the Lord, but James the servant of the Lord.

In the Greek it is, James [Iakobos], a servant [doulos] of God [theos] and [kai] of the Lord [Kurios] Jesus [Iesous] Christ [Christos]... The Greek word doulos, pronounced doo'-los means, a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond(-man), servant. Not a friend, not a half brother, but slave, bond servant, obeyer of all orders and commands given by the Lord Jesus. Yet over fifty percent of all those calling themselves Born Again, claim that Jesus is their friend, not their master, but their friend, not their owner, but their friend. So, how could they have given their life to the Lord? How can they be Born Again? And if they are not truly Born Again, how can they go anywhere other than the lake of fire?

First we are going to look at the only Scripturally defined method of being Born Again, for the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 3:3, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God! To often that sentence is ended with a period, it is and exclamation, it is a matter of fact, it is not arbitrary, it is an absolute, it means simply this, unless you are Born Again, as defined by Scripture, no matter how good a life you live, you are not even going to see the inside of heaven, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil and it's.

look, if you are one of the very many who said some canned so called Prayer of Salvation and did not comply, 100%, with what The Lord Jesus acknowledge as Born Again, you are not going to heaven, you are going to the lake of fire, I don't know how I can be any clearer. I don't care what the pope says, I don't care what so called Evangelical leaders say, I only care what He, who went up on the cross for us, He who left His kingdom in heaven and came to earth to offer us the one and only way to eternal peace and love with Him in heaven, has to say. And if any who disagree ca find Scripture to contradict this dire warning, so be it, let them do it, but as for those who start by disagreeing with denominational garbage or commentary by others, don't waste your time.


Later today, we are going to look at the one and only Scriptural method of being Born Again.

For those who disagree, prove your point with Scripture or offer yourself on a cross for me and I'll consider what you have to say.

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#38. To: SOSO (#37)

My point was in response to the burdensome practices of the Pharisees.

They were so into their man-made rules that one each Nicodemus could not see the forest for the trees. I know that is idiomatic.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-25   21:45:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: redleghunter (#38)

My point was in response to the burdensome practices of the Pharisees.

OK, so what about my point?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-25   21:47:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: SOSO (#39)

OK, so what about my point?

Off subject.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-26   0:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: SOSO (#37)

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same?

I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-26   0:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Biff Tannen (#30)

Biff, twice in the past two months I found myself in the VA ER facing death, both times the ER staff forced me to make a statement of how far they were to go to revive me, in both instance my chances of survival were under 10%, when faced with almost certain death one has to face the fact that they will be facing Christ very soon, in both instances I was able to tell the ER staff that I knew where I was going and that my life was in Christ hands and needed no special effort on their part for if He wanted me to stay I would stay if He wanted me with Him I would pass away.

Now, Biff, one day you will be in the very same position, as will all, for all will one day face the prospect of imminent if not immediate death, I wonder how you will face that prospect.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   11:33:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: A K A Stone (#41)

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same?

I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

Yes, He did.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-26   11:37:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Pinguinite (#32)

The theology of christian salvation is indeed straight forward. What is illogical is that God would have created a master plan that would have required salvation from eternal damnation, thereby resulting in so many of his beloved children to end up in a pit of eternal pain for all eternity.

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

But, God does have rules, and His single biggest rule is "Unless you are Born Again, you will not see the kingdom of heaven" John 3:3, now, whether you like the rule or not isn't important, there are lots of rules of man I hate, but must, unless I want to pay the fine of penalty, obey, God's rule is the same, it is not dependent upon your liking it for it to be in force.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   11:44:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: BobCeleste (#42)

I've always hoped i would face it like my grandfather did, calmly and peacefully without any particular alarm or upset. Not screaming and all panicked like the passengers in the car he was driving.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-01-26   11:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: SOSO (#43)

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same? I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

Yes, He did.

I've read that that isn't the same as Jesus saying to pay your taxes.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-26   12:24:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: BobCeleste (#42)

facing death

I hope you stick around for a while Bob. I wish you good health.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-26   12:25:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Biff Tannen (#45)

I've always hoped i would face it like my grandfather did, calmly and peacefully without any particular alarm or upset. Not screaming and all panicked like the passengers in the car he was driving.

Your grandfather was probably a Born Again Christian, for knowing where you are going and what awaits you on the other side is restricted to those of us who have freely given our lives to Christ.

I too hope you can face death like that.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   12:40:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: A K A Stone (#47)

I hope you stick around for a while Bob. I wish you good health.

Me too, thanks.

Facing death as a 20 year old Marine is nothing compared to facing it as a 70 year old. At 20 I was convinced that nothing could kill me, at 70 I realize I have one foot in the grave an the other on a banana peel at the best of times.

Facing death at 70 makes on realize and confess that there is a God and that judgement is inevitable. A Pastor friend from Maine sent me JAKE'S FORTUNE, a novel by Ray Comfort, in it is the best description of what I felt facing death. Ray's description is unbelievably accurate. I would urge everyone, especially Christians, to read it.

Thanks for this site A K A Stone,

Bob

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   12:49:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: BobCeleste (#42)

Bob old friend, I sincerely hope you are doing well! I pray for your good health and longevity! God Speed my friend !!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-01-26   13:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: BobCeleste (#44)

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

It's not a question of liking or not liking the rules. It's a question of what the rules are. It's a question of how things really work. There's the Christian model which involves judgement on what we believed, or the model based on Michael Newton's work, corroborated by thousands through past life recall, which says our harshest (and only) judge will be our very selves, when we understand with much amplified conviction those whom we've harmed and those we've helped and (more to the point) the things we have learned and how we've progressed spiritually. It's a place where love surpasses all earthly deeds in enormous measure, fitting in a way the bible talks about but frankly fails to demonstrate. To a measure far beyond what one is even capable of expecting of a truly Majestic God.

To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children.

I read of your health situation in post #42. I wish you the best. I believe though that the day you/we die, will be the happiest day of our lives, because it's the day we *return* home, the place we came from. Earth is not home, and never has been.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-26   13:26:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Biff Tannen (#45)

I've always hoped i would face it like my grandfather did, calmly and peacefully without any particular alarm or upset.

I look at death as a promise of relief from all the messes and stupidity my supposedly fellow human beings inflict upon me.

rlk  posted on  2015-01-26   13:30:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Stoner (#50)

Bob old friend, I sincerely hope you are doing well! I pray for your good health and longevity! God Speed my friend !!

Thanks my friend,

Bob

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   13:31:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Pinguinite (#51)

I believe though that the day you/we die, will be the happiest day of our lives, because it's the day we *return* home, the place we came from. Earth is not home, and never has been.

You sound as if you have given your life to Christ, if not, what do you base you believe on?

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   13:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Pinguinite (#51)

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-26   13:44:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Pinguinite, BobCeleste (#51)

"To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children".

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us-- after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people-- only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…

In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.

SOURCE

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-26   14:18:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: A K A Stone (#46)

I've read that that isn't the same as Jesus saying to pay your taxes.

Well, yeah, there's a lot of that going around these days:)

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-26   16:42:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Murron (#56)

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us-- after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people-- only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…

In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.

Thank you, all of that is so very, very true.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   16:44:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: BobCeleste (#58)

Thank you, all of that is so very, very true.

You're welcome.

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-26   17:23:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: All (#58)

i just wish someone got that joke I stole.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-01-26   17:42:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Biff Tannen (#60)

i just wish someone got that joke I stole.

I think most get Biff, but in the real world, there are some folk who grapple with that very joke almost everyday....

But I still think it's funny...lol

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-26   18:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Pinguinite, BobCeleste (#51)

Does the God you invoke through Newton have a name?

The God of Creation, the One and only God gave His Name, YHWH. The Name confirmed by His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach.

That is the Great I AM who came in Word and Power.

Frankly when Newton walks on water and feeds thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread post it here.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-26   22:26:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Murron (#56)

Excellent source thank you.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-26   23:01:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Biff Tannen (#60) (Edited)

A very macabre sense of humor Biff.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-26   23:15:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: BobCeleste (#54)

You sound as if you have given your life to Christ, if not, what do you base you believe on?

A combination of things.

1) The works of Dr. Michael Newton, in whose books he has presented a portrait of the spirit world and how it relates to our lives here on earth, all information gleaned from his clients while under deep hypnosis;

2) Books by Brian Weiss in a similar field as Newton, who's information corroborates Newton's completely even though neither of these authors refer to each others work (Though I've not yet read all of Weiss's books so can't swear to that....)

3) Contemporary accounts of reincarnation, and some near death experiences, which corroborate both Newton and Weiss. Accounts of child prodigies, some, most or potentially all claims of paranormal events, as well as "miraculous" healings and even out-of-body experiences have a reasonable explanation.

4) That all this information presents a theology that is, as far as I can see, perfect in form as it provides a great many answers to issues that Christianity does not answer well: Why there is suffering, pain and tragedy; Why life isn't fair (it is, even for those born with physical deformities and those who die at even young ages); Why we are special and different from animals, even if we share the same life tree via evolution; How souls come into existence...

5) No conflict with science in terms of universal origin and age, origins of life & evolution, or the theological problem of the potential for life, -- particularly intelligent life -- existing elsewhere in the cosmos.

6) On a personal level, it explains my own experiences in life. Everything falls into place with this model. Theology, philosophy, science, morality... everything falls into place in a very beautiful way. As I mentioned, the love is better, zero condemnation from God, endless patience, full free will and yet with full accountability.

I could post links to youtubes, but I'm not sure there's much point. I don't see it as particularly important that anyone change their views, and I sense that many on this forum aren't about to do so any time soon. But that's okay. I do discuss it because I find the subject fascinating, and the view of the world and the universe is very beautiful from where I sit now, and I'd like to share it if I could.

My best....

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-27   1:05:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Murron (#56)

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

The explanations you provided are not too unreasonable, but they are not very good either.

You say we have a choice to choose Jesus. But only during a life that could span anywhere from a few minutes to 100 years. I've raised the point in another thread. At what age is one able to make such a decision? Very young children sometimes die. Were their brains ever developed enough to reach that obtuse level of lucidity to make that eternal decision to accept Jesus or not? Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one. Then there are those who never had the chance to hear the gospel. Should they be condemned because a Christian failed to obey a command to tell them about Jesus? In order for there to be true justice, some theological tool needs to be created to cover it, maybe something like "God in his wisdom knew they wouldn't have chosen Jesus anyway" so that makes it okay for them to go to hell without actually having been given an actual choice for eternal life.

Theologically, it's messy.

God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell

Except for the fact that he created hell.... Or perhaps, one might argue, he didn't create it. Maybe sinners created it on their own. In which case he allowed it to be created. Being he is all-powerful, it's kinda hard to say he had nothing to do with it's creation. It's a messy concept.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there.

The parable of the sheep and the goats seems particularly clear on the point of God / Jesus condemning those labeled goats. It's not a parable about sinners fleeing the love and grace of God by any stretch.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Implies that people lack souls until they accept Jesus? People are made into the image of God retroactively upon being saved? If we are not children of God until we are saved, then we are no different from animals before being saved. Why not save animals too. Or why bother saving anyone. Why would Jesus need to come and die to save people that are not children of God? Sorry, but this is, again, messy, messy theology.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective. Suffering, hardship and tragedy challenge us to make us spiritually stronger. They are not the "fruits of sin", but rather the whole reason we are here. To face such things and try to rise above them. To love others and keep our chins high in spite of whatever horrible things comes our way. Would you not agree that the ability to rise above such misfortune is a sign of a strong, powerful soul? That the greater one is able to rise above deeper chasms of darkness and despair, the more awe inspiring it is?

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-27   2:10:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: redleghunter (#62)

Does the God you invoke through Newton have a name?

I'm not doing any invoking, but there is no name is given.

Frankly when Newton walks on water and feeds thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread post it here.

If he did, and I did, would you believe it?

I'd venture the answer is "no". Your mind is closed. But that's okay. I wish you well.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-27   2:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Pinguinite (#65)

If you are saying that you are not a Born Again Washed in the Blood of the Lamb Christian, that you are pinning your hope of eternal bliss to other than what Christ did on the cross, I am sorry for you.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-27   11:41:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Pinguinite (#66)

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective.

Is this Michael Newton you speak of, is he an ordained minister, attorney and emergency medicine physician?

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-27   15:31:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Pinguinite, Murron (#66)

Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one.

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective.

Christianity and scripture pretty much assure man that suffering and hardship are inevitable. Scripture also lends wisdom, instruction, purpose and hope to deal with the inevitable.

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-27   17:05:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Liberator (#70) (Edited)

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-27   17:33:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Pinguinite, All (#71) (Edited)

("We sing about God because we believe in Him. We are not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of Him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists". ~ Jeff Foxworthy)

Murron  posted on  2015-01-27   17:36:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Murron (#71)

Foxworthy -- I'd hit the "LIKE" button if we had one. Great quote.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-27   17:49:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Murron (#69)

Is this Michael Newton you speak of, is he an ordained minister, attorney and emergency medicine physician?

No. He is a now a retired hypnotherapist. He began his practice doing conventional hypnotherapy to help people to lose weight, quit smoking and resolve issues from forgotten/repressed traumatic childhood events and things of that nature, but moved into the unconventional field past life and between life regression after a few clients "accidentally" regressed to such areas and only then obtained the healing results they sought after doing so.

He was an atheist during the years of his conventional practice but was forced to accept we are more than flesh and blood as he saw more and more cases of past life regression accounts. He took the scientific course of remaining unbiased as possible by restricting his information sources to only his clients, avoiding the work of others, such as reading books and attending conferences on the subject. Each of his books contain many dozens of direct excerpts of sessions he's had with clients "case studies" each which illustrates a point or aspect of the spirit world and/or who and what we are.

Newton claims to have regressed as many as 7000 clients in his career, and says that regardless of the culture, religion (including atheists) or background of the clients, the information he got was extremely consistent. He also claims he does not ask leading questions of his clients ("do you see such and so?"), but made it his practice to ask open ended questions ("what do you see?") in an effort to be as scientifically neutral as possible in his work, and it is the overwhelming consistency of the information he obtained which made him conclude both that reincarnation is a real phenomenon and a spirit world exists.

Even though he's authored 4 books on the subject, searches on the web to find if anyone has accused Newton of being a fraud turn up nothing.

I personally found his information corroborating and explaining just about everything that I've experienced and wondered about in my personal life. In my view, Newton's information provides answers and explains mysteries far, far better any other information source, including Christianity or the bible has or does. I cannot in good conscience ignore that.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-28   16:48:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Liberator (#70)

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Many times the Christian answer to things like "why did my child have to die" or "why did I have to be hit by a car and now be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life" are answered in such ways as "Only God in his great wisdom knows the answers to this". Newton, however, provides much more pragmatic answers that make complete sense, such as "Your child died because you need to learn to accept such tragedy without taking it out on your wife, children or your friends. You need to learn to continue to be a loving father, husband and helpful friend to those around you and not resort to self-pity, bitterness and jealousy toward those who have children, like you've done on your last several lives when this happened". Or "you are now in a wheelchair because you need to learn to accept charitable love from those who care about you, because you have been too arrogant about your own strengths in past lives where you have flaunted the strength of your physical body". Or perhaps "You are in a wheelchair so you can better learn to use your great spiritual abilities to befriend and help others through conversing with them or helping others by writing books. This way your body won't be a distraction".

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

For me, it's not a case of simply taking Newton's word. It's a case of his information corroborating my own experiences, presenting a "clean" theology that not only works well without the need of theological "band-aids", but also works perfectly fine with the current scientific fields in areas of biology, cosmology, as well as ethics and morality. It also corroborates present day accounts of reincarnation, as well as psychological matters of phobias and even parapsychological issues of premonitions, out-of-body experiences, deja vu, child prodigies, even ghosts. In my view, biblical Christianity doesn't come close to providing the answers to contemporary issues and mysteries that Newton does.

I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

This is too big a question to answer here. I must refer you to his books. I will say though that reincarnation does not happen simply for the purpose of happening. Souls are created on a continuing basis, and we have a first earth life (there are those today on their first life as well as their final life), and we freely choose to return here with each life for a specific purpose(s) or lesson(s), all to improve spiritually. Every life is chosen freely, knowing the circumstances we enter into, so life is always completely fair. We eventually do reach a point where we stop incarnating, when further earthly incarnations are of insufficient value for spiritual development. Thereafter we continue developing in a role that includes guiding lessor developed (younger) souls.

The concept of reincarnation usually strikes people as completely crazy when they first hear of it because it isn't compatible with their current assumptions of whatever sort. As a kid I remember my dad commenting in response to someone on TV espousing reincarnation: "how do you explain the rising population of earth?" (a point I agreed with at the time). But this issue and others are all covered. If one is willing to reconsider long held assumptions about life, then reincarnation can make complete sense. But I do not hold it against anyone for not wanting to consider it, or considering it and discounting it.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-28   18:16:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pinguinite, liberator, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#75)

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

That's when the entry point or presupposition is based on babies possibly sinniing instead of God's Grace.

This baby issue may be an issue for you and many others. It is not an issue for God.

" For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-29   16:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: BobCeleste (#0)

Bob is part 2 of your series coming soon?

" For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-29   16:14:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: redleghunter (#77)

God willing within the next couple of days. I am having trouble focusing and with the wording.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-29   18:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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