[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.

Tenn. AG reveals ICE released thousands of ‘murderers and rapists’ from detention centers into US streets

Kamala Harris Touts Mass Amnesty Offering Fast-Tracked Citizenship to Nearly Every Illegal Alien in U.S.

Migration Crisis Fueled Rise in Tuberculosis Cases Study Finds

"They’re Going to Try to Kill Trump Again"

"Dems' Attempts at Power Grab Losing Their Grip"

"Restoring a ‘Great Moderation’ in Fiscal Policy"

"As attacks intensify, Trump becomes more popular"

Posting Articles Now Working Here

Another Test

Testing

Kamala Harris, reparations, and guaranteed income

Did Mudboy Slim finally kill this place?

"Why Young Americans Are Not Taught about Evil"

"New Rules For Radicals — How To Reinvent Kamala Harris"

"Harris’ problem: She’s a complete phony"

Hurricane Beryl strikes Bay City (TX)

Who Is ‘Destroying Democracy In Darkness?’

‘Kamalanomics’ is just ‘Bidenomics’ but dumber

Even The Washington Post Says Kamala's 'Price Control' Plan is 'Communist'

Arthur Ray Hines, "Sneakypete", has passed away.

No righT ... for me To hear --- whaT you say !

"Walz’s Fellow Guardsmen Set the Record Straight on Veep Candidate’s Military Career: ‘He Bailed Out’ "

"Kamala Harris Selects Progressive Minnesota Governor Tim Walz as Running Mate"

"The Teleprompter Campaign"

Good Riddance to Ismail Haniyeh

"Pagans in Paris"

"Liberal groupthink makes American life creepy and could cost Democrats the election".


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Epistemic Certainty and Belief in God
Source: Triablogue
URL Source: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009 ... rtainty-and-belief-in-god.html
Published: May 27, 2009
Author: Dr. Michael Sudduth
Post Date: 2015-01-21 16:16:23 by redleghunter
Keywords: None
Views: 23275
Comments: 66

Many theists maintain that they are certain of the truth of various theological propositions, among them being the proposition that God exists. I want to argue that for at least one important sense of certainty this position is false.

The relevant sense of certainty here is what is called epistemic certainty, a species of certainty distinguished from so-called psychological certainty. The latter is merely descriptive and refers to a cognizer having maximal conviction or assurance of the truth of some proposition.

While many theists are psychologically certain of God’s existence, this is epistemologically uninteresting. People have psychological certainty regarding all sorts of false propositions (e.g., Santa Claus exists, the world is flat, Elvis is alive). By contrast, a belief that is epistemically certain has some epistemic merit or credential, an epistemic merit or credential that is in some respect unsurpassed by other beliefs. I’ll argue that theistic belief (and belief in other theological propositions) is not epistemically certain...............

******************************************************************************** One might suppose, though, that a different answer can be drawn from Plantinga’s epistemology. On Plantinga’s view, a person whose relevant cognitive faculties are functioning properly will hold a firm theistic belief that has a high degree of warrant. In fact, on Plantinga’s view, theistic belief is indefeasible for all fully rational persons. No proposition a fully rational person entertains could serve as a defeater for theistic belief. That’s a pretty substantial epistemic credential.

Of course, defeaters against theistic belief exist according to Plantinga, but only because the epistemic integrity of some other aspect of our cognitive establishment (perhaps the sensus divinitatis) has been compromised, say by the noetic effects of sin. It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

But this is an ideal view of the human cognitive situation, at best true for some original cognitive design plan and perhaps true for us in our final state. But now we see through a glass darkly, as it were. As indicated in prior chapters, the noetic effects of sin are a factor in assessing the degree to which all our beliefs can be warranted, including belief in God. It is hard to see how theistic belief can be maximally warranted for humans under any post-lapsarian cognitive design plan.11

So I think we must conclude that there isn’t a very strong case for supposing that theistic beliefs are epistemically certain in either the sense of indubitability or maximal warrant. In fact, this looks just plain false.

III. The Senses in which Belief in God is Certain

In what sense, then, can theistic belief be certain?

Many theists are psychologically certain of the existence of God and other theological propositions. However practically useful such a belief is, psychological certainty says nothing about the normative axis of belief, the epistemic merits or credentials of a belief. So we must look elsewhere for a relevant and plausible sense in which theists may have certainty concerning the existence of God and other theological propositions.

If God’s existence is logically necessary, then theistic belief is certain in a purely logical sense, for then it will not be logically possible to believe that God exists and for this belief to be false.12 But this isn’t epistemic certainty. Since it is logically possible to believe a logically necessary truth and yet not know the proposition, or even be warranted in holding it, clearly there is a sense in which it is impossible to be mistaken in a belief and yet for this to carry no epistemic significance. Suppose Jack believes nothing is red and non-colored because a character in a cartoon asserts it and Jack is inclined to accept whatever he hears cartoon characters affirm. His belief is true, but it would seem to have little by way of warrant. The logical status of the proposition tells us nothing about the positive epistemic status of his belief in the proposition.13

I would suggest that the relevant and plausible kind of certainty is moral certainty. A morally certain belief is beyond all reasonable doubt, though not beyond all possible doubt. In positive terms, such beliefs are highly probable. Morally certain beliefs entitle us to be sure about our beliefs, and at least some of them they carry a degree of warrant that is plausibly sufficient, together with the satisfaction of the truth condition, for knowledge. Thus morally certain theistic beliefs do justice to the Biblical passages that suggest Christians ought to be sure about their faith and that Christians have knowledge of God.14

Click for Full Text!


Poster Comment:

A good mental drill in this piece. I posted two of the main points, and the author's summary. Good debate in the comments section at the site.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Comments (1-26) not displayed.
      .
      .
      .

#27. To: A Pole (#22)

I would add to it that God is the source of all existence and as such He is above existence.

He is the source of reason and logic so He is above them. The rational and logical proofs cannot reach Him.

We can know Him through our hearts as a Person in Whose image we are made.

I agree. I think that is why the author put this portion in with regards to the creator and not the Creator:

One might suppose, though, that a different answer can be drawn from Plantinga’s epistemology. On Plantinga’s view, a person whose relevant cognitive faculties are functioning properly will hold a firm theistic belief that has a high degree of warrant. In fact, on Plantinga’s view, theistic belief is indefeasible for all fully rational persons. No proposition a fully rational person entertains could serve as a defeater for theistic belief. That’s a pretty substantial epistemic credential.

Of course, defeaters against theistic belief exist according to Plantinga, but only because the epistemic integrity of some other aspect of our cognitive establishment (perhaps the sensus divinitatis) has been compromised, say by the noetic effects of sin. It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   14:12:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: redleghunter (#27)

It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   14:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A Pole (#28)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Yes.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   14:57:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: A Pole (#26)

All well and good to the extent that one can trust one's senses to accurately perceive the universe around one. As we all know that is a most flawed assumption.

You cannot escape this problem.

Exactly. So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   15:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#29)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Yes.

Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   20:14:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: SOSO (#31)

Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

There is only one path to a pure heart....The Son in Whom He is well pleased. That would be Jesus Christ.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   23:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#30)

So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

Someone has to have contact with the truth. Or the huddled mass will slide into abyss.

"No village will stand without a righteous man, no city without a saint"

If there were ten righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah, these cities would survive.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-23   0:45:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A Pole, redleghunter (#33)

So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

Someone has to have contact with the truth. Or the huddled mass will slide into abyss.

"No village will stand without a righteous man, no city without a saint"

If there were ten righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah, these cities would survive.

That is a theistic notion, one that is based on a belief (some may agrue faith) - which may or may not be true, certainly subjectively. Each society defines what is righteous, often that is a moving target as socitites evolve. One society's truth may not be another's, compare Islam with Christianity or both with Hinduism.

Civilizations have come and gone since the beginning of recorded time. In the final analysis, your comment is flawed as no man is without sin. The only Kingdom theisists believe is without end is that of God, not man. All villages of man eventually slide into the abyss.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   1:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: redleghunter (#32)

SOSO: Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

redleghunter: There is only one path to a pure heart....The Son in Whom He is well pleased. That would be Jesus Christ.

__________________________________________________________________

Meaning that if he didn't come to believe in Jesus before he died, the kindly old rabbi is damned for all eternity. Right?

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   1:12:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: kenh (#35)

Meaning that if he didn't come to believe in Jesus before he died, the kindly old rabbi is damned for all eternity. Right?

I can't nor will condemn anyone. That is all in God's Power and this is what is recorded on the matter:

John 3:1-21 KJV

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-23   10:03:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: redleghunter (#36)

I can't nor will condemn anyone. That is all in God's Power and this is what is recorded on the matter:

So the answer is, 'yes'. If the NT is right and he didn't accept Jesus, the kindly old Rabbi is going to burn forever.

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   20:05:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: kenh, redleghunter (#37)

If the NT is right and he didn't accept Jesus, the kindly old Rabbi is going to burn forever.

Accept Jessus at what point in time? At the Rabbi's physical death? When the Rabbi stands before Jesus to be judged?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   20:09:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: SOSO (#38)

Scripture says you get a chance after death to accept? I didn't know that.

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   20:26:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: kenh (#39)

Scripture says you get a chance after death to accept? I didn't know that.

I think that Scripture is unclear about this? Do you relly believe that only physically baptized people have a chance to get into Heaven?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   20:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: SOSO (#40)

Do you relly believe that only physically baptized people have a chance to get into Heaven?

I don't believe anyone burns forever, but thumpers say otherwise.

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   20:55:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: kenh (#41)

I don't believe anyone burns forever, but thumpers say otherwise.

There are those that identify themself as Christian that believe eventually everyone gets into Heaven. I guess that God has useful proposes for having created Satan and Hell and maintaining both. Maybe someday He will reveal such to me/us.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   21:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: kenh (#37)

So the answer is, 'yes'. If the NT is right and he didn't accept Jesus, the kindly old Rabbi is going to burn forever.

God does not deal with "ifs" only certainties. That much is clear.

God will not be mocked and rejection of His Son as Lord and Savior leads to condemnation. (John 3)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-23   21:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: kenh, SOSO, khh (#41) (Edited)

I don't believe anyone burns forever, but thumpers say otherwise.

Thumpers say so?

Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-23   21:40:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: redleghunter (#43)

Why not simply say that Jews who don't convert before dying, burn forever after death?

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   22:40:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: kenh, redleghunter (#45)

Why not simply say that Jews who don't convert before dying, burn forever after death?

He has said that countless times without using words such as Judaism, Baha'i, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism. To him only born again Christains have he opportunity not to burn forever. The rest need not bother knocking at the door of the Peraly Gates.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   22:47:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: SOSO (#46)

To him only born again Christains have he opportunity not to burn forever. The rest need not bother knocking at the door of the Peraly Gates.

Jesus answered, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   1:53:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: SOSO (#46)

The rest need not bother knocking at the door of the Peraly Gates.

The Glorified Christ said:

Revelation 3:

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus is doing the knocking SOSO.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   1:58:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: kenh, SOSO, khh, liberator, BobCeleste (#45)

Why not simply say that Jews who don't convert before dying, burn forever after death?

John 3:

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   2:03:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: A Pole (#28)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Sometimes the impure in heart - or at any rate those who think themselves impure in heart - see God too.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-24   8:29:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: redleghunter (#0)

One of the reasons these discussions bore me to tears is that everybody talks and talks, but nobody listens to anybody else. At any rate, people do not listen to ME, and they glide right over what I have to say.

In the context of this thread, I will say it again: epistemological certainty of the existence of God can be gained by physical proof of God's existence.

The ASSUMPTION everybody who makes these arguments makes is that no such proof exists. That's false. There is quite a bit of physical proof, things that are of clear religious content that, when examined forensically, are demonstrable miracles - meaning that their properties violate the laws of physics and they can neither exist nor have come into existence. Yet there they are, existing in all of their spinning unreasonableness, and conveying overt, in-your-face religious content as their primary function.

I understand that somebody saying "I've spoken with God", or "I've seen this" or "I've seen that" isn't persuasive to anybody: the speaker could be lying, or crazy, or deluded.

But concrete examinable objects are of a different order of proof: they can be forensically examined - and the objects that prove God HAVE BEEN, some quite exhaustively.

I always try to bring them into precisely this sort of discussion, because they are discussion enders: there, God's existence is physically proven, NOW WHAT? That is where the discussion should go, if people were logical, and if they actually were interested in learning something.

But that never happens. Believe me, I know. I have attempted to show the proofs a hundred times. I am never asked to show the proofs. NEVER. NOT ONE TIME. People IGNORE the proffer. They don't want to hear it. Or they don't hear it. They assume they know that it's all bullshit and they don't spent a second even considering the possibility that God has physically proved himself to anybody who will look.

I always press the issue, because I know that the physical proof is very strong, it's the strongest argument of all. It SILENCES the discussion by ending it, as the proof not only proves God, but demonstrates WHO God is - and answers the question of "Which religion". All of the miracles are Christian. ALL of them, as in EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Nobody asks at the proffer, but I always press, because I know the answer to the question, and God provided the answer. Then people get annoyed. They get annoyed and they start trotting out their own made-up traditions of spit, tissue paper and earwax, saying that God would never LET himself be PROVEN, because the whole PURPOSE of religion is to force FAITH WITHOUT PROOF. These logical boogers are pulled out of people's nose and wiped all over everything.

Fact is, those beliefs themselves are false. God always proved himself by visible miracle in the Scripture - every time - AND he left solid physical proof since then that anybody can look at, and start seeing more and more of it, and realize that it's not even a debatable point. God exists, and he left hundreds of open physical artifacts that prove it to the skeptical mind that doesn't run off the reservation of science.

But that's where the trench line always settles: people talking in blind and bludgeoning ignorance and stupidity about what God "would not do", even though God manifestly DID.

And so we never get to the actual miracles. Nobody will ever look. Nobody ever asks.

Then they write stupid articles like this one that pretend - for all it is is a pretence - that God plays hide the football with his existence and leaves us all stumbling around in the dark trying to reason things out.

It's all a load of crap.

God revealed himself in power and miracle in Scriptural times, and he did so throughout the ages since, and he left at least a hundred objects each of which manifests a Christian miracle. And he didn't leave anything like that anywhere else.

I'll write it here, with considerable irritation in my voice. And STILL nobody will ask for the list. People do not want to know. They prefer to lie to themselves and say that it's all unknowable.

It's not. I know God is because he grabbed my face and talked to me. I set out to prove to myself that I'm not crazy, and to prove to others that he exists, and to prove it scientifically, and the proof is mountainous.

I've seen the skeptics attack the proof, but they always resort to obfuscation and lies. They cannot face the evidence head on, because it DOES prove God. It also proves other things people don't want to hear.

Nevertheless, God can be proven epistemologically, using the concrete physical miracles he left and preserved through the ages to do just precisely that: prove himself, to anybody who really needs to know.

So, if there's a man saying "Well, if I had PROOF of God, then I'd believe." The proof exists, abundantly, concretely. But if you don't understand physics, chemistry and biology, you won't be able to fully grasp just how miraculous these proofs are. You can see WHAT they are, and WHAT story they tell, but you cannot penetrate to the MIRACLE without science.

God proves himself physically by leaving physical miracles for people to look at. The miracles prove that God is the Christian God. The lack of miracles for any other religion prove that the Christian God is the only one who can perform these miracles.

Now watch the howling and gnashing of teeth, and watch a whole bunch of folks become smarter than they really are, and watch me be demoted to an ignorant, unscientific Bible-thumper (and watch the Bible-thumpers scream from the other wing that "God would NEVER provide proof). Both sides are wrong, he DID provide proof, and the proof proves it, and intelligent and discerning minds ought to look, see and accept.

Instead, there will be silence, or anger. And the discussion will go on as though nothing happened, and as though there is no proof.

Well, there is. There is, and God left it there to answer these questions. So people who think they're so smart and philosophical and theological should be quiet and examine it.

And then they should think three times before denying it because they don't like the content of it, or the fact of its existence. They should be quiet because the miracles ARE miracles, and they HAVE the content, which means that God put that content there in that form, and the man who opposes the form or the content is contesting with God: "You cannot do that!" And that's a supremely stupid and arrogant thing for a man to say to God.

Just watch what happens next now. It's so predictable.

(1) Ignorance. (2) Anger. (3) Haughty denunciation. (4) Appeals to logic and theology.

But never (A) LOOK at the miracles and SEE what God left.

People should just do A and then put their hands over their mouths and be silent, and accept that God IS, and God is PROVEN, and God has an opinion about some things, and he has expressed it. And then men should drop their opposing beliefs and accept reality.

Now watch none of those things happen, and the blind lead the blind into a pit. Just you watch and see.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-24   9:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#50)

Sometimes the impure in heart - or at any rate those who think themselves impure in heart - see God too.

If they are truly contrite. Contrition purifies heart.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

If your deeds are evil but you love the truth, you come to the light even if this is painful. This is contrition.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-24   9:57:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: redleghunter (#48)

The Glorified Christ said:

Revelation 3:

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus is doing the knocking SOSO.

We have been through this a gazillion times. God offers every man the gift faith and the offer is always out there.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-24   12:04:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Vicomte13 (#50)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Don't we all get to see God at least once?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-24   12:05:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, All (#51)

People should just do A and then put their hands over their mouths and be silent, and accept that God IS, and God is PROVEN, and God has an opinion about some things, and he has expressed it. And then men should drop their opposing beliefs and accept reality.

Faith? Faith? We don' need no stinkin' faith..........do we?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-24   12:09:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, A Pole, Bob Celeste (#51)

John 20:24-29King James Version (KJV)

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Is Christ saying that one can only be blessed if one believes without seeing Him? Was Thomas then not blessed for rejecting the testimonty of his fellow Apostles and only believeing after God let Thomas touch Him?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-24   12:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

In the context of this thread, I will say it again: epistemological certainty of the existence of God can be gained by physical proof of God's existence.

And I agree.

Jesus Christ told the assembled disciples and multitudes several times that some have ears to hear and eyes that see and some don't. Which brings us to a valid piece of data you have provided in the past. That would be even with evidence pointing right at their noses, some don't "see it." The veil has not been lifted. Only God can lift that veil. Even the Pharisees and many others seeing the works of Christ, right there before their eyes and ears did not believe the works. Or worse accredited the works to Satan. Christ's works were fully consistent with His words. How could they deny Him? They were spiritually blind and did not seek to gain site. All those that came to Christ for healing were not refused. Then there were those who were "sick" and refused His "medicine."

So only those, today, seeking the Great Physician will have eyes that see and ears with which to hear. No matter how much one sticks a Bible or the Shroud in front of a Pharisee, they will not see unless it is granted by God's Grace.

On the article? I posted it hoping we would all discuss what we used to at LP. It seems we are.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   15:43:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: SOSO (#56)

Is Christ saying that one can only be blessed if one believes without seeing Him? Was Thomas then not blessed for rejecting the testimonty of his fellow Apostles and only believeing after God let Thomas touch Him?

The disciples had the blessing of being with the Bride Groom while on earth. That is their blessing. Our blessing is believing their proclamation of Christ. John 17 is a good reference for the above.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   15:47:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: redleghunter (#58)

To: SOSO

Is Christ saying that one can only be blessed if one believes without seeing Him? Was Thomas then not blessed for rejecting the testimonty of his fellow Apostles and only believeing after God let Thomas touch Him? The disciples had the blessing of being with the Bride Groom while on earth. That is their blessing. Our blessing is believing their proclamation of Christ. John 17 is a good reference for the above.

So Thomas was exempt from having to believe like the rest of us in that he was permitted to doubt the testimony of all of the other Apostles. Keep dancing my friend.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-24   16:15:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: redleghunter (#49)

Why not simply say that Jews who don't convert before dying, burn forever after death?

Ezekiel 37:1-14

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-24   18:54:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: BobCeleste (#60)

You feeling any better Bob?

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-01-24   18:58:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: SOSO (#59)

So Thomas was exempt from having to believe like the rest of us in that he was permitted to doubt the testimony of all of the other Apostles. Keep dancing my friend.

LOL no. Thomas was a human like us and God used him to the Glory of Christ.

What did Thomas say after examining the wounds of Christ?

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-24   20:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: BobCeleste (#60)

"Let me paraphrase John 3:3 for you, "Be Born Again or go to hell!" Yes that is a perfect paraphrase of John 3:3
-- BobCeleste

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...cgi?ArtNum=37287&Disp=All

kenh  posted on  2015-01-24   21:01:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: SOSO (#56)

Is Christ saying that one can only be blessed if one believes without seeing Him?

Apparently not, given that God left all those physical miracles.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-24   21:29:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: SOSO (#55)

Faith? Faith? We don' need no stinkin' faith..........do we?

Faith means trust. It doesn't mean mental belief.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-24   21:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: CZ82 (#61)

You feeling any better Bob?

I am starting to think I may just make it.

Thanks for asking, I really appreciate it.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   11:28:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com