[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.

Tenn. AG reveals ICE released thousands of ‘murderers and rapists’ from detention centers into US streets

Kamala Harris Touts Mass Amnesty Offering Fast-Tracked Citizenship to Nearly Every Illegal Alien in U.S.

Migration Crisis Fueled Rise in Tuberculosis Cases Study Finds

"They’re Going to Try to Kill Trump Again"

"Dems' Attempts at Power Grab Losing Their Grip"

"Restoring a ‘Great Moderation’ in Fiscal Policy"

"As attacks intensify, Trump becomes more popular"

Posting Articles Now Working Here

Another Test

Testing

Kamala Harris, reparations, and guaranteed income

Did Mudboy Slim finally kill this place?

"Why Young Americans Are Not Taught about Evil"

"New Rules For Radicals — How To Reinvent Kamala Harris"

"Harris’ problem: She’s a complete phony"

Hurricane Beryl strikes Bay City (TX)

Who Is ‘Destroying Democracy In Darkness?’

‘Kamalanomics’ is just ‘Bidenomics’ but dumber

Even The Washington Post Says Kamala's 'Price Control' Plan is 'Communist'

Arthur Ray Hines, "Sneakypete", has passed away.

No righT ... for me To hear --- whaT you say !

"Walz’s Fellow Guardsmen Set the Record Straight on Veep Candidate’s Military Career: ‘He Bailed Out’ "

"Kamala Harris Selects Progressive Minnesota Governor Tim Walz as Running Mate"

"The Teleprompter Campaign"

Good Riddance to Ismail Haniyeh

"Pagans in Paris"

"Liberal groupthink makes American life creepy and could cost Democrats the election".


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Epistemic Certainty and Belief in God
Source: Triablogue
URL Source: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009 ... rtainty-and-belief-in-god.html
Published: May 27, 2009
Author: Dr. Michael Sudduth
Post Date: 2015-01-21 16:16:23 by redleghunter
Keywords: None
Views: 23269
Comments: 66

Many theists maintain that they are certain of the truth of various theological propositions, among them being the proposition that God exists. I want to argue that for at least one important sense of certainty this position is false.

The relevant sense of certainty here is what is called epistemic certainty, a species of certainty distinguished from so-called psychological certainty. The latter is merely descriptive and refers to a cognizer having maximal conviction or assurance of the truth of some proposition.

While many theists are psychologically certain of God’s existence, this is epistemologically uninteresting. People have psychological certainty regarding all sorts of false propositions (e.g., Santa Claus exists, the world is flat, Elvis is alive). By contrast, a belief that is epistemically certain has some epistemic merit or credential, an epistemic merit or credential that is in some respect unsurpassed by other beliefs. I’ll argue that theistic belief (and belief in other theological propositions) is not epistemically certain...............

******************************************************************************** One might suppose, though, that a different answer can be drawn from Plantinga’s epistemology. On Plantinga’s view, a person whose relevant cognitive faculties are functioning properly will hold a firm theistic belief that has a high degree of warrant. In fact, on Plantinga’s view, theistic belief is indefeasible for all fully rational persons. No proposition a fully rational person entertains could serve as a defeater for theistic belief. That’s a pretty substantial epistemic credential.

Of course, defeaters against theistic belief exist according to Plantinga, but only because the epistemic integrity of some other aspect of our cognitive establishment (perhaps the sensus divinitatis) has been compromised, say by the noetic effects of sin. It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

But this is an ideal view of the human cognitive situation, at best true for some original cognitive design plan and perhaps true for us in our final state. But now we see through a glass darkly, as it were. As indicated in prior chapters, the noetic effects of sin are a factor in assessing the degree to which all our beliefs can be warranted, including belief in God. It is hard to see how theistic belief can be maximally warranted for humans under any post-lapsarian cognitive design plan.11

So I think we must conclude that there isn’t a very strong case for supposing that theistic beliefs are epistemically certain in either the sense of indubitability or maximal warrant. In fact, this looks just plain false.

III. The Senses in which Belief in God is Certain

In what sense, then, can theistic belief be certain?

Many theists are psychologically certain of the existence of God and other theological propositions. However practically useful such a belief is, psychological certainty says nothing about the normative axis of belief, the epistemic merits or credentials of a belief. So we must look elsewhere for a relevant and plausible sense in which theists may have certainty concerning the existence of God and other theological propositions.

If God’s existence is logically necessary, then theistic belief is certain in a purely logical sense, for then it will not be logically possible to believe that God exists and for this belief to be false.12 But this isn’t epistemic certainty. Since it is logically possible to believe a logically necessary truth and yet not know the proposition, or even be warranted in holding it, clearly there is a sense in which it is impossible to be mistaken in a belief and yet for this to carry no epistemic significance. Suppose Jack believes nothing is red and non-colored because a character in a cartoon asserts it and Jack is inclined to accept whatever he hears cartoon characters affirm. His belief is true, but it would seem to have little by way of warrant. The logical status of the proposition tells us nothing about the positive epistemic status of his belief in the proposition.13

I would suggest that the relevant and plausible kind of certainty is moral certainty. A morally certain belief is beyond all reasonable doubt, though not beyond all possible doubt. In positive terms, such beliefs are highly probable. Morally certain beliefs entitle us to be sure about our beliefs, and at least some of them they carry a degree of warrant that is plausibly sufficient, together with the satisfaction of the truth condition, for knowledge. Thus morally certain theistic beliefs do justice to the Biblical passages that suggest Christians ought to be sure about their faith and that Christians have knowledge of God.14

Click for Full Text!


Poster Comment:

A good mental drill in this piece. I posted two of the main points, and the author's summary. Good debate in the comments section at the site.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: GarySpFc, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#0)

PING

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   16:17:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: redleghunter (#1)

So is the belief in sin a psychological or epistemic certainty?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-21   18:46:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: redleghunter, *Religious History and Issues* (#0)

Red,you should become a co-owner of this ping list.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-01-21   19:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: SOSO (#2)

So is the belief in sin a psychological or epistemic certainty?

That one is pretty obvious. Just look around.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   20:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: sneakypete (#3)

Thanks Pete. I will sign up tomorrow.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   20:19:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: sneakypete, A K A Stone (#3)

Pete did not see the ping list under subscriptions.

Also when I signed up for others they didn't take.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   20:24:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: redleghunter (#4)

So is the belief in sin a psychological or epistemic certainty?

That one is pretty obvious.

I must admit that the following statement zooms me:

'Of course, defeaters against theistic belief exist according to Plantinga, but only because the epistemic integrity of some other aspect of our cognitive establishment (perhaps the sensus divinitatis) has been compromised, say by the noetic effects of sin."

This seems to have it both ways.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-21   20:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: SOSO (#7)

Yep and as an engineer I knew you would like this.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   20:37:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: redleghunter, GarySpFC (#6)

Pete did not see the ping list under subscriptions.

Also when I signed up for others they didn't take.

Gary,could you make redleghunter a co-owner of your Religious History and Issues ping list?

BTW,I thought I was the one who created that ping list?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-01-21   21:19:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone (#6)

Pete did not see the ping list under subscriptions.

Also when I signed up for others they didn't take.

Stone,you have some sort of glitch in your ping list software. I tried to create a Crime and Corruption ping list and when it posted the title was blank. Now I can't delete it and I can't put a name in the blank box and save it.

I can't create any other ping lists either because the software says it can't save anything because I have a blank box in the ping list subject.

My new 2016,The Usual Suspects political ping list is also listed as a ping list I am not subscribed to,even though I am./

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-01-21   21:25:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: redleghunter (#8)

This seems to have it both ways.

Yep and as an engineer I knew you would like this.

So you are admitting that it is contractictory nonesense? Is that why you posted it?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-21   21:38:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: SOSO (#11)

How is it contradictory based on the context of the article. These philosophers are not clear writers. They use a cumulative argument to try to keep the integrity of the numerous propositions they are comparing.

You have to read this like you used to read stereo instructions.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   23:11:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: redleghunter (#12)

You have to read this like you used to read stereo instructions.

Which for me were usually totally useless. In the end I just relied on my God given noetic engineering talents, or in most cases trial and error.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-21   23:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: sneakypete, redleghunter (#9)

I added Red as a co-owner.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-22   0:24:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: redleghunter (#1)

I have big news for Dr. Michael Sudduth. I have examined the EVIDENCE for the existence of God, and I am CERTAIN as to His existence.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-22   0:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: GarySpFC (#15)

LOL quite a round about way this philosophy prof takes to get to the crux of the matter.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   1:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: SOSO (#13)

In the end I just relied on my God given noetic engineering talents, or in most cases trial and error.

You mean they are not the same thing?

Sure had me fooled over the years.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-01-22   4:44:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: GarySpFC (#14)

I added Red as a co-owner.

Thanks,Gary. He posts a lot of religious threads.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-01-22   4:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, TooConservative, GarySpFc, Pericles (#0)

What is the main error of this approach?

The "proof" of "existence" of God required here is impossible. Why? Because it starts with certain epistemological and metaphysical assumption - that was is certain is what is immanent - ie directly accessible data and what is reliable is a logical reasoning based on data. And that certainty is the most important and attainable goal.

Problem is that such approach cannot "prove" anything, not even an existence of other human beings. Logically we end up with a skeptical solipsism. If we are a part of a larger whole, we should not assume that we can reconstruct this whole from the part that we are. Same way as a spider weaving his web from his one glands cannot reconstruct the surrounding world.

The right approach is the sane acceptance of the whole, that cannot be "proven" but that makes sense - the sensible gestalt. It is sane to believe that other beings exist, that the universe is sensible and to start from the whole in order to explain our role as a meaningful part.

In other words, not only the Kantian "practical reason" trumps Kantian "pure reason" but also the very Kantian/Cartesian/Husserlian approach undercuts itself and leads to the absurdity.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   5:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A Pole (#19)

In other words, not only the Kantian "practical reason" trumps Kantian "pure reason" but also the very Kantian/Cartesian/Husserlian approach undercuts itself and leads to the absurdity.

Yes, the author points this out. Why the summary at the end is important to the overall approach.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   9:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A Pole (#19) (Edited)

The "proof" of "existence" of God required here is impossible.

Not to sound too nihilistic so early in the day but I've always thought it is improbable that we are "real" in any meaningful sense.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-22   9:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: redleghunter (#20) (Edited)

I would add to it that God is the source of all existence and as such He is above existence.

He is the source of reason and logic so He is above them. The rational and logical proofs cannot reach Him.

We can know Him through our hearts as a Person in Whose image we are made.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   9:41:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: TooConservative (#21)

We are, we exist. But are we "real"?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   9:43:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: A Pole, redleghunter, Vicomte13, TooConservative, GarySpFc, Pericles (#19)

The right approach is the sane acceptance of the whole, that cannot be "proven" but that makes sense - the sensible gestalt. It is sane to believe that other beings exist, that the universe is sensible and to start from the whole in order to explain our role as a meaningful part.

All well and good to the extent that one can trust one's senses to accurately perceive the universe around one. As we all know that is a most flawed assumption. One man's sane is another's insane in that regard.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   12:24:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: A Pole, redleghunter, Vicomte13, TooConservative, GarySpFc, Pericles (#23)

We are, we exist. But are we "real"?

I am. I exist. But are you real?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   12:25:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: SOSO (#24)

All well and good to the extent that one can trust one's senses to accurately perceive the universe around one. As we all know that is a most flawed assumption.

You cannot escape this problem. Either you trust your senses or feeling of sensibility or your other mental powers or not. Or you can trust someone else or trust nothing.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   13:53:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A Pole (#22)

I would add to it that God is the source of all existence and as such He is above existence.

He is the source of reason and logic so He is above them. The rational and logical proofs cannot reach Him.

We can know Him through our hearts as a Person in Whose image we are made.

I agree. I think that is why the author put this portion in with regards to the creator and not the Creator:

One might suppose, though, that a different answer can be drawn from Plantinga’s epistemology. On Plantinga’s view, a person whose relevant cognitive faculties are functioning properly will hold a firm theistic belief that has a high degree of warrant. In fact, on Plantinga’s view, theistic belief is indefeasible for all fully rational persons. No proposition a fully rational person entertains could serve as a defeater for theistic belief. That’s a pretty substantial epistemic credential.

Of course, defeaters against theistic belief exist according to Plantinga, but only because the epistemic integrity of some other aspect of our cognitive establishment (perhaps the sensus divinitatis) has been compromised, say by the noetic effects of sin. It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   14:12:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: redleghunter (#27)

It may very well be true that apart from the noetic effects of sin, humans would believe in God just as firmly as they believe in their own existence, the existence of an external world, other minds, and various a priori truths, and perhaps our theistic beliefs would be just as warranted as these other beliefs.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-22   14:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A Pole (#28)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Yes.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   14:57:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: A Pole (#26)

All well and good to the extent that one can trust one's senses to accurately perceive the universe around one. As we all know that is a most flawed assumption.

You cannot escape this problem.

Exactly. So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   15:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#29)

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

Yes.

Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   20:14:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: SOSO (#31)

Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

There is only one path to a pure heart....The Son in Whom He is well pleased. That would be Jesus Christ.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   23:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#30)

So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

Someone has to have contact with the truth. Or the huddled mass will slide into abyss.

"No village will stand without a righteous man, no city without a saint"

If there were ten righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah, these cities would survive.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-23   0:45:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A Pole, redleghunter (#33)

So where does that leave us? For most of us, like 99.999% of the population, we opt to huddle together around what we deem to have in common.

Someone has to have contact with the truth. Or the huddled mass will slide into abyss.

"No village will stand without a righteous man, no city without a saint"

If there were ten righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah, these cities would survive.

That is a theistic notion, one that is based on a belief (some may agrue faith) - which may or may not be true, certainly subjectively. Each society defines what is righteous, often that is a moving target as socitites evolve. One society's truth may not be another's, compare Islam with Christianity or both with Hinduism.

Civilizations have come and gone since the beginning of recorded time. In the final analysis, your comment is flawed as no man is without sin. The only Kingdom theisists believe is without end is that of God, not man. All villages of man eventually slide into the abyss.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   1:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: redleghunter (#32)

SOSO: Excellent news. I knew that the kindly old Rabbi of the shul in the middle of my block when I was a kid would see God. He'd probably enjoy speaking with Ghandi there.

redleghunter: There is only one path to a pure heart....The Son in Whom He is well pleased. That would be Jesus Christ.

__________________________________________________________________

Meaning that if he didn't come to believe in Jesus before he died, the kindly old rabbi is damned for all eternity. Right?

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   1:12:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: kenh (#35)

Meaning that if he didn't come to believe in Jesus before he died, the kindly old rabbi is damned for all eternity. Right?

I can't nor will condemn anyone. That is all in God's Power and this is what is recorded on the matter:

John 3:1-21 KJV

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-23   10:03:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: redleghunter (#36)

I can't nor will condemn anyone. That is all in God's Power and this is what is recorded on the matter:

So the answer is, 'yes'. If the NT is right and he didn't accept Jesus, the kindly old Rabbi is going to burn forever.

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   20:05:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: kenh, redleghunter (#37)

If the NT is right and he didn't accept Jesus, the kindly old Rabbi is going to burn forever.

Accept Jessus at what point in time? At the Rabbi's physical death? When the Rabbi stands before Jesus to be judged?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   20:09:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: SOSO (#38)

Scripture says you get a chance after death to accept? I didn't know that.

kenh  posted on  2015-01-23   20:26:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: kenh (#39)

Scripture says you get a chance after death to accept? I didn't know that.

I think that Scripture is unclear about this? Do you relly believe that only physically baptized people have a chance to get into Heaven?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-23   20:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



      .
      .
      .

Comments (41 - 66) not displayed.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com