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Title: KING JAMES VS NEW KING JAMES THEY CAN'T BOTH BE TRUE!
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Published: Jan 19, 2015
Author: David W. Daniels
Post Date: 2015-01-19 18:43:40 by _V_
Keywords: None
Views: 42185
Comments: 105
Question: What is wrong with the New King James Version (NKJV)? All it does is modernize the words of the King James Bible, right? Why should I read the King James and not the helpful New King James? Answer: The New King James is not a King James Bible. It changed thousands of words, ruined valuable verses, and when not agreeing with the King James Bible, it has instead copied the perverted NIV, NASV or RSV. And this you must know: those who translated the NKJV did not believe God perfectly preserved His words! I have gotten more letters on this question than almost any other. This is very important to those who want God's truth in the English language. I myself used the NKJV for a decade before I learned the truth about the preserved words of God. Here is some of what convinced me to switch to the King James Bible from the "New King James." Changed Words Means Changed Meanings We know that Bible versions disagree on how to translate certain words. Here is an example: Is Jesus God's "Son" or God's "servant"? In Acts 3:26, the NKJV calls Jesus God's "Servant." The KJV correctly calls Him God’s "Son." These are not the same by any stretch of the imagination. Which one is He? If He is God's servant, so are you and I. If He is God's Son, then we all need to listen to what He said, because He is God! Changed words like this make a great deal of difference in how we understand a passage. Loss of "thee" and "thou" Please decide what God is saying to Moses: "And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" (Exodus 16:28, NKJV) It looks like God is saying, "Moses, you are continuing to refuse to keep My commandments and My laws." But look carefully at the accurate King James: "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" Now we understand! It was the people, not Moses, that God was upset with. "Ye" and "you" mean more than one person. "Thee," "thou," "thy," "thine," "doeth," "hast," etc., only mean one person. How do we know? The "y" is plural. The "t" is singular. Isn't that easy? Now you know what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:7). What Jesus said was, "Nicodemus, marvel not that I said unto thee, all of you need to be born again." This is very important. Not only Nicodemus needed to be saved. But everybody, including him, needed to be born again. That's why Jesus used the plural. But there is more of a problem than the thousands of times "thee" and "thou" are removed from God's words. What does a word mean? This is very important, as you shall see. Go to Gehenna? The NKJV claims to be "more accurate" because it leaves untranslated words like "Gehenna," "Hades" and "Sheol." What do they mean? You will know from the King James the exact meaning: "hell." We know what that means. Meaning is very important. When's the last time you heard someone told to "Go to Gehenna"? Which is correct? The NKJV consistently uses terms that don't mean the same as in the King James Bible. Here are some examples: King James Version New King James Version 2 Corinthians 2:17 "For we are not as many which corrupt the word of God" "peddling the word of God" (like the NIV, NASV and RSV) Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject" "Reject a divisive man" (like the NIV) 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." "Abstain from every form of evil." (like the NAS, RSV and ASV) Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed." [This means that the LORD shall appear, which shall occur at the Second Coming of Christ.] "Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at His word: "Your brethren who hated you, who cast you out for My name's sake, said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy.' But they shall be ashamed." (Like the NIV, NASV, RSV and ASV, the Second Coming is wholly omitted from this scripture.) Both translations cannot be correct. If one is right, the other has to be wrong. No matter how you slice it, the NKJV does not have the same meaning as the accurate King James Bible. 2. Changed Affections There is a lot of evidence that the translators and publishers did not believe God preserved His words. Thomas Nelson Publishers The NKJV was translated and is printed under the watchful eye of Thomas Nelson Publishers. Here is part of a timeline they published. 1969 Sam Moore purchases Thomas Nelson Publishers, vowing to return it to its once proud place among the leading publishers of the world. 1976 Nelson initiates the creation of a new Bible translation--The New King James Version. 1980's Nelson reclaims its place as a premier publisher of Bibles and Christian Books, expands into international markets, and establishes Markings® as Nelson's Gift division. It is clear the NKJV made Thomas Nelson Publishers a lot of money. Did a King James-type Bible renew their hearts to God? Note the following facts: They are also the publishers of the American Standard Version, the American revision of Westcott and Hort's perverted English Revised Version. They are also the publishers of the Revised Standard Version, the revision of the American Standard. To this day they continue to sell at least six Bible perversions. The NKJV was just one moneymaker that helped Nelson "reclaim its place" as a major publisher. The NKJV repeats the lie that "There is only one basic New Testament used by Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox, by conservatives and liberals." In fact, there are two: the perverted Alexandrian line that was continued by the Roman Catholic religion and the preserved, apostolic, Antiochian line that progresses from the Christians at Antioch of Syria (Acts 11:26) to our precious King James Bible. The New King James translators Marion H. Reynolds Jr. of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association reveals a little-known fact: "The duplicity of the NKJV scholars is also a matter for concern. Although each scholar was asked to subscribe to a statement confirming his belief in the plenary, divine, verbal inspiration of the original autographs (none of which exist today), the question of whether or not they also believed in the divine preservation of the divinely inspired originals was not an issue as it should have been. Dr. Arthur Farstad, chairman of the NKJV Executive Review Committee which had the responsibility of final text approval, stated that this committee was about equally divided as to which was the better Greek New Testament text-the Textus Receptus or the Westcott-Hort. Apparently none of them believed that either text was the Divinely preserved Word of God. Yet, all of them participated in a project to "protect and preserve the purity and accuracy" of the original KJV based on the TR. Is not this duplicity of the worst kind, coming from supposedly evangelical scholars?" Not "the real thing" What Mr. Reynolds points out is very important to understand. There were basically two groups of translators working on the NKJV. One half believed that the perverted 45 Alexandrian manuscripts, from which came the Roman Catholic Bibles and the modern perversions, were better than the manuscripts behind the King James. The other group believed the thousands of manuscripts supporting the King James were better. This is a big problem: No one believed that they held God's words in their hands, only a "better" or "worse" text! The translators believed they had something close, but not an accurate Bible. It is a sad thing when a Bible translator doesn't even believe he has God's words in his hands. It sounds like they don't believe God kept His promise: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31) Perhaps that is why some of them had no problem working on other perversions, both before and after working on the NKJV. This is so unlike the 54+ Bible men who faithfully translated the King James Bible from preserved manuscripts of God's words. The difference between the King James and the "New" King James is the difference between day and night. Compromising God's Words Many Christians are discovering the miracle of God's words in English. But the enemy has tried to insert a monkey-wrench: the NKJV. Pastors approve it, "scholars" promote it, but the NKJV is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The New King James is just a compromise between the liberal, perverted Bible versions floating around and the rock-solid, accurate and preserved words of God, the King James Bible. Brothers and sisters, don't settle for anything less than God's words
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#1. To: _V_ (#0)
Another voice heard from. Welcome aboard.
I see Daniels' books at Amazon. He teamed up with Jack Chick on two of them. So his writings are probably sold in Chick's website too. He has a YouTube channel. Very much a defender of Chick and his tracts. I think he doesn't like Jesuits either.
Thank God, the Greek Orthodox don't have to go through all this crap when they read their Greek untranslated Greek bibles.
In what language did God converse with Moses? Jesus with His disciplines and crowds? In what language would Jesus have written? His disciples? In what language did God communicate at Babel when He deliberately created a multitude of languages to confound man? In what language is the writting on the recently found mummy wrapings? And most importantly, does any of this matter?
Those are good questions you ask. I'm not as knowledgeable of all the intricacies of how the Bible in the natural world came to be. So I did some googling. From what I read. I'm just throwing this out there. There was something on wikipedia that suggested that the "adamic" or something like that language was Hebrew. Some people believe that Moses wrote the first books of the Bible. I just thought I wold add that.
Moses is called the Law Giver as the understanding is that God spoke to Moses and literally laid down the law. It is also held that God related to Moses everything that happened between God and man prior to Exodus and that Moses was then the human hand author of the Torah.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. LOL who does:)
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
The NKJV was the adopted English version of the NT selected for the OSB.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Totally changes the meaning. That is why I stick with the King James version. I don't even get why they can get away with calling it the new King James version. King James had absolutely nothing to do with it.
OSB- Oriented Strand Board?
For the Christian West the long debate has been the battle of primarily the Alexandrian texts vs. the Byzantine. I know TC and Gary have posted much on this in the past so maybe they will tune in. As a primer below is a short introduction with a link to the full piece: Basic Facts About Manuscripts There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the Bible. These have been divided into four hypothetical “text types.” There are two main text types we need to be concerned with. These are the Byzantine text type, which was prevalent around Antioch, and the Alexandrian text type, which was prevalent around Alexandria, Egypt. There are a couple of other text types, the Caesarean and the Western, which seem to be a combination of these two other text types, but these are not important as we know they are derivatives of the other two types. The vast majority of manuscripts, perhaps up to 95% of all manuscripts known, are of the Byzantine text type, which is therefore referred to today as the “majority text.” These are all “late manuscripts”, the majority of them having been produced after 600AD. Of the four text types, the Byzantine type is the largest text, meaning it has the most words. The oldest manuscripts we have are all Alexandrian in nature. Of all known manuscripts, perhaps 5% reflect this text type. The two best examples of Alexandrian manuscripts are Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, two complete copies of the Bible in Greek, which were copied during the fourth century. But there are earlier manuscripts to be found, not complete Bibles but fragments thereof, stretching all the way back into the 200's and earlier. These earlier manuscripts also universally support the Alexandrian text type. The Alexandrian text type stopped appearing in the Greek texts in the 700's after a long period of tapering off. "Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Orthodox Study Bible
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Forgot to ping you to this: http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=37166&Disp=11#C11
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Why was that, especially if they were the older of the two?
In the languages they all understood. If they didn't understand what God was communicating, then they could not write it down. For Moses that would be the original Hebrew. Later the Aramaic and Greek. The NT was written in Koine Greek. Jesus most likely spoke in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. He may have had a short conversation with Pilate in Latin (if you believe Mel Gibson).
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Yet according to the linked piece I provided they were only 5% of the 5,000 or so manuscripts known. Which breaks into two schools of thought. The first being the oldest is better (Alexandrian) and the other being the better manuscripts are the ones copied more (Byzantine).
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Stop the presses, we have anoher entrant. New Cooler Edition Rick James Version Revised Liberal Edition Revised Neocon Edition Bible 2 The Torah consists of five books: Gentle Sis. God, lacking anything more sensible to do with himself, mashes some quarks together and creates the universe. All goes well until the first humans, Adam and Steve, decide it's wrong to go naked, have fun, or make their own choices. Generations later, Noah floods his basement while trying to invent animal crackers, causing a worldwide chain reaction. An attempt to create the Babelfish program fails when no two people can agree on the same programming language. Abraham stops taking his medication and hears voices telling him to move to Canaan, bang his Egyptian maidservant, lop off the good bit of his son's penis, and other crazy stuff. Sarah draws the line at child sacrifice and has him committed. Jacob and sons invent organized crime, excelling at protection rackets (involving foreskins) and slave trading, even volunteering their own brother Joseph. Seeing that his legitimate agriculture business is doing well, they too go straight and join Joseph in Egypt--the first mistake in Jewish history. Eggs 'R' Us. Pharaoh founds the first international discount store chain, recruits the Israelites as employees, then forbids them to unionize, receive benefits, or leave the store at night. Moses and Aaron, having seen Norma Rae numerous times, defy Pharaoh by staging ten strikes. Tired of the bad publicity, Pharaoh sends the Israelites out of Egypt, although that wasn't what they were after. Moses hears of good investment opportunities in Canaan and bids his people be patient as they set off, subsisting on Manischewitz from the sky. Meanwhile, God remembers he's supposed to be the star of this whole shindig and stages a dazzling comeback with the revelation of the Ten Suggestions. Suffering shin splits from all that walking, the Israelites create a Golden Calf Muscle as their new god, but Moses, having too much invested in his Monotheism Money Market fund, orders it destroyed. Levity Cuss. Finally, after all these boring stories, we get a whole book of the good stuff: laws. Some examples: Thou shalt not eat pork, except at a Chinese restaurant. If a man contracteth leprosy, the priest shall lead him outside the camp, crying "Mr. Clean! Mr. Clean!" until he getteth better. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sheep. If a man lieth with another man, they must both help organize the Pride parade. Half of thy holy days shall be packed into three weeks, and they shall always fall on weekdays, causing thy Gentile boss to hate thee for requesting so much time off. Number Nine, Number Nine. All hell breaks loose. The Israelites demand Dan Quayle to eat. Moses dispatches twelve corporate headhunters to Canaan, and all but two falsely report that the Canaanites would rather receive welfare, drink beer and churn out kids than work. The Jerusalem Stock Exchange crashes as a result, and God bars the Israelites from investing for forty years. Korach Inc. attempts a hostile takeover of Moses and Aaron Ltd., but is swallowed by litigation. Moses decides to stay in the desert when he strikes oil instead of water. The hippie troubador Balaam ingests some bad acid and swears he can hear his ass talking. Do Her off of Me. Moses, now a wealthy oil tycoon, gives his people some final financial advice and Canaanite economic forecasts. He appoints a new CEO, Joshua, and with a cry of "So long, suckers!" climbs up to his retirement villa on Mount Nebo, where he drops dead of a heart attack. Serves him right, the show-off, doing all that climbing at the age of 120. Since the nineteenth century, scholars have generally attributed the Torah to God, with Moses as his inerrant stenographer. This theory, however, is utter heresy. Every devout Jew and Christian knows that four source documents, written entirely by humans, lie behind the text as we know it: J, for Just Kidding, consists of all the passages in which God reneges on his word, such as the binding of Isaac (who actually enjoyed being tied up, thank you), and the promises of a land filled with milk and honey (land of dried-up falafel, more like). E, for Ecstasy, includes those sections seemingly composed under the influence, such as the splitting of Red Skeleton and Aaron's staff turning into a trouser snake. P, for Pippy Longstocking, comprises all the content suitable for children. It is by far the smallest section, consisting only of the words "In the beginning." Some even question the age-appropriateness of the word "beginning." D, for Dull as Dishwater, is made up of every passage in which the most common word is "begat," "cubit," "tabernacle," or "white scaly flesh." In other words, the sections which Jewish children inevitably are assigned for their Bar or Bat Mitzvah, or those from which rabbis, ministers and priests always derive their sermons. Another theory posited by Church historian Eusebius states that the Torah was written by Plato. Contrary to popular belief, the original language of the Torah is neither Hebrew nor Latin nor Renaissance English, but Ebonics, the native tongue of Black Jesus. Because of widespread racism, few throughout history have deigned to learn this sacred language, making translations necessary. Popular translations include the Sepgooeygant (Pig Latin), the Tarbubblegum (Leet), and the Rick James (Otaku). None of these versions succeed in capturing the poetic cadence of the original. One example will suffice, from Gentle Sis Chapter 42, Verse 7, Amendment 200: Sepgooeygant: Ethay Ordlay aidsay otay Damay, Erilyvay outhay artay ondemnedcay. Tarbubblegum: Teh L0rd 5@|d 2 @d@m, D00d U R s0 pwned. Rick James: The Sensei said to Adam-chan, Baka, you are not sugoi. Original Ebonics: The Landlord said to Adam, You so busted, bitch. Jewish tradition divides the Torah into 613 portions of 50 chapters each. Every Sabbath, an entire portion is chanted in synagogue, unless the congregation is fidgety, hungry, or sleepy. If the congregation does get antsy, the Rabbi will try to take twice as long to gloat his power over the rest of the congregation. When the Rabbi is also fidgety though, he also rushes things. Thus, for all intents and purposes, the Torah is never really chanted at all, but rather a bunch of off-key gibberish is chanted which sounds authentic. Nevertheless, the clergy do make a show of taking it from the Ark, kissing it, laying it on the lectern, undressing it, then saying, "Hey Torah, you were fantastic, but I've got an early meeting tomorrow so I gotta go. I'll call you." Aruchbay Tahay Donaiay Lohanueay Elechmay A-olamhay.
Which version of the KJV do you use?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Greek? What is he basis for thinking that? Who around Him spoke Greek?
https://bible.org/article/changes-kjv-1611-illustration Recently a reader of the BSF web site sent this letter to me (and presumably to several of his friends as well): Daniel Wallace is a noted Greek scholar and professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary. In his paper entitled “Why So Many Versions?” Wallace makes the following statement -“...we must remember that the King James Bible of today is not the King James of 1611. It has undergone three revisions, incorporating more than 100,000 changes!” There you have it. A scholar of repute has spoken. Other critics have taken up the same whimpering cry. But is it true? No, it is not true. Furthermore, it is willfully deceptive, as I shall now demonstrate. First, the facts... The King James Bible contains 791,328 words. Since the first King James Bible rolled off the press in 1611 to the King James Bible you buy off the shelf today, there have been - are you ready - there have been a grand total of 421 word changes! That's it! From 1611 until now, the King James Bible has undergone a grand total of 421 word changes, amounting to only five one-hundredths of a percent of the text! But that's not all. It gets better. Out of the 421 total changes amounting to only five one-hundredths of a percent, the following should be noted - TOWARDS has been changed to TOWARD 14 times. BURNT has been changed to BURNED 31 times. AMONGST has been changed to AMONG 36 times. LIFT has been changed to LIFTED 51 times. YOU has been changed to YE 82 times. Out of a grand total of 421 changes from 1611 to the present, almost 300 of the 421 are of this exact nature! Now let’s do the math... By omitting changes of this nature, we now have about 150 (to be conservative) remaining changes. This amounts to one one-hundredth of a percent of the text. The remaining 150 changes from 1611 to today are composed of printing errors, spelling standardization, and a few minor phrase changes. For example... In Genesis 22:7 AND WOOD was changed to AND THE WOOD. In Leviticus 11:3 CHEWETH CUD was changed to CHEWETH THE CUD. In Romans 6:12 REIGN THEREFORE was changed to THEREFORE REIGN. Friends, this is the ENTIRE extent of the nature of the changes from the King James Bible of 1611 to the King James Bible of the present day. Indeed, the words of the Holy Ghost are very appropriate here - “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” Psalm 12:6 The question now arises, how then can Daniel Wallace and other enemies of God’s Word make a statement like the one he made above? If there have been only 421 changes from 1611 until today, how can Wallace et al say that there have been 100,000 changes? It’s very simple, and yet very insidious, my friends. Here is how Wallace et al attempt to justify their deception... You see, the King James Bible you buy off the shelf today is printed in the ROMAN TYPE FACE! The King James Bible of 1611 was printed in the GOTHIC TYPE FACE! VIOLA!!! [sic] There you have it, friends. Changes in TYPE FACE are the “changes” that Wallace et al are referring to. And yet, Wallace clearly intended his reader to believe that the King James Bible of 1611 is significantly different than the King James of today. As usual, however, the facts don’t bear the critics out. The facts condemn the critics and expose their smoke-and-mirror shell game. Deceit is the only thing modern critics can traffic in, for the facts are so overwhelmingly against them that they have no other means by which to denigrate the Word of God. Conclusion: the FACT is that the King James Bible you buy off the shelf today is VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to the King James Bible of 1611. God has truly preserved his word in the Bible of the King James. Scott [last name wittheld from me] This writer made a very interesting argument. He had details and, though I would say that the tone of his letter was certainly less than charitable, I thought that the content needed some investigation. To begin with, I did not personally count 100,000 changes between the 1611 KJV and the modern reprints. But I did take the word from some reputable scholars on that score. Second, this gentleman’s own statistics show that the count of 100,000 could not possibly be attributable to font changes alone: if so, then there should be nearly 791,328 changes (according to this gentleman’s word-count of the total words in the KJV [a number which, by the way, may include part of the Apocrypha1]). Third, since this gentleman has included rather minor changes (which I also assumed to be part of the 100,000 changes)—specifically, “printing errors, spelling standardization, and a few minor phrase changes” (though he considers these to be among the biggest of the 421 changes), we can proceed on his definition of an alteration. In particular, spelling standardization is the largest single group of changes made between 1611 and the modern era. How can we proceed with this comparison? I have on the wall in my study two leaves from the 1611 edition—the first edition—of the King James Bible. The following text, 2 Samuel 12:20-31, is part of a leaf from the 1611 printing of the KJV. There are a total of 362 words in these verses. This ought to be a good test-case for whether there are 421 total changes or 100,000 changes to the KJV in its nearly 400-year history. Only 421 changes to the KJV equals an average of one change per 1880 words. Therefore, we should expect to find none in these twelve verses, statistically speaking (or, more precisely, about one-sixth of one change). If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 changes to the KJV, that averages out to one out of nearly eight words (1:7.91328 is the precise ratio), or 45.745 words.2 Thus, if my statistics are correct, we should expect to find one or more instances per verse, on average, and a grand total in the double digits. If Scott’s statistics are correct, to find more than one or two would be disturbing, and to find even a dozen or more would show that his data are fundamentally incorrect. To be sure, this is hardly a scientific sampling; but at the same time since the two statistical models are so widely divergent from one another, we might expect to see either pattern emerge. The text that follows is a list of the verses in their ‘modern’ KJV version; beneath each verse is a catalog of the changes in that verse from the 1611 version to the latest KJV. At the end of this treatment will be a summary. A Comparison of the 1611 KJV with the ‘Modern’ KJV in 2 Samuel 12:20-31 (2 Samuel 12:20) Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. “apparell”“apparel” “owne”“own” “house;” “house,” (2 Samuel 12:21) Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. “diddest”“didst” “weepe”“weep” “alive,”“alive;” (2 Samuel 12:22) And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? “tell, whether”“tell whether” (2 Samuel 12:23) But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. “Wherefore”“wherefore” “Can”“can” “backe” “back” “goe” “go” “returne” “return” (2 Samuel 12:24) And David comforted Bath-sheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him. “sonne”“son” (2 Samuel 12:25) And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name Jedidiah, because of the LORD. “Prophet”“prophet” “Prophet,”“prophet;” “hee”“he” (2 Samuel 12:26) And Joab fought against Rabbah of the children of Ammon, and took the royal city. “Rabbah,”“Rabbah” “tooke”“took” “royall”“royal” “citie”“city” (2 Samuel 12:27) And Joab sent messengers to David, and said, I have fought against Rabbah, and have taken the city of waters. “citie”“city” (2 Samuel 12:28) Now therefore gather the rest of the people together, and encamp against the city, and take it: lest I take the city, and it be called after my name. “therefore,”“therefore” “citie”“city” “citie”“city” (2 Samuel 12:29) And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. “tooke”“took” (2 Samuel 12:30) And he took their king’s crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David’s head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. “tooke”“took” “kings”“king’s” “crowne”“crown” “head (the weight... stones)”“head, the weight...stones:” “gold,”“gold” “Davids”“David’s” “head, and” “head. And” “spoile”“spoil” “citie”“city” (2 Samuel 12:31) And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem. “sawes”“saws” “harrowes”“harrows” “yron”“iron” “yron”“iron” “passe”“pass” “brick=kilne”“brickkiln” “And thus”“and thus” Summary: of the 362 words in these twelve verses, the KJV has undergone 41 (forty-one) specific alterations. This averages out to one change per 8.83 words. This is just slightly less than one change per 7.91 words that I suggested was the average,3 but two hundred and thirty-seven times the number Scott suggested. To be sure, these changes are not particularly significant—but this has been admitted by both sides. What is not admitted by KJV-only folks is that the changes in most modern translations from the KJV (though on a verbal level are certainly greater than these) do not affect the essentials of the faith. My argument about the KJV is not that it has undergone radical changes in its long history (although, to be sure, there are some rather significant changes in the KJV in various places, as has been frequently pointed out in the books by Bruce, Lewis, Kubo, etc. [see below for a few examples]), but that it has undergone changes—100,000 of them. I submit that many of the changes that modern translations make are a mere updating of the language of the KJV, yet even these get condemned on the basis of altering the Word of God. On that same basis, for the KJV to change at all would mean that it, too, stands condemned. I am not, of course, arguing that this is the case; I am arguing that there is a great deal of selective evidence used by KJV-only advocates used to support their position. As the adage goes, “Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” Appendix Three other points can be made here. First, Scott’s statistics are probably an amalgam of global changes and individual changes. That is, most of the 421 changes that he sees in the KJV are groups of changes. The change of ‘towards’ to ‘toward’ that occurs fourteen times is thus counted as one change. (In the five words he lists, the total number of changes comes out to 214 changes.) The problem with this is that we are led to believe that those 421 changes represent a specific percentage of the whole—or, in Scott’s words, “five one-hundredths of one percent.” That would only be true if there were 791,328 different words (as opposed to total words) in the KJV. Second, when Scott details a handful of changes that are indeed trivial, he says, “Friends, this is the ENTIRE extent of the nature of the changes from the King James Bible of 1611 to the King James Bible of the present day.” As we mentioned above, that is not correct. Some of the changes in the KJV through the centuries have been fairly significant. The most famous blunder in the history of the King James Bible to come off the printing press was the 1631 edition. Robert Barker, the printer to the throne, inadvertently left out “not” in the seventh commandment! It was dubbed “the Wicked Bible” and Barker was fined 300 pounds for the error.4 Now, someone might object: “But that’s a printer’s error; that shouldn’t count.” There are two problems with this. First, errors creep into copies of a book, especially one that is nearly a million words long! Whether those errors crept into handwritten copies or printed copies, the principle is still the same. This, indeed, is one reason why the vast bulk of biblical scholars reject the KJV as the best translation available today and why they reject its underlying Greek text as being identical with the original: errors in the transmissional process have always taken place, and a great number of them are self-evident in the KJV tradition. Second, the problem is that the Bible that people have in their hands always have a small percentage of printing errors. Some of them are rather minor, some are major. But KJV-only advocates typically link inspiration to preservation to accessibility in such a way that logically makes printer’s errors a part of the package. Many, for example, wish to claim that inspiration did not cease with the death of the last apostle but continued on with the wording of the Greek text that Erasmus, the Roman Catholic scholar, published. To be sure, they usually state it in such a way that Erasmus did not invent certain wording, but rather rediscovered the original. But this argument won’t fly when we consider the last six verses of Revelation: since the Greek manuscript he was using lacked the last leaf, Erasmus had to back-translate from Latin into Greek, thereby creating seventeen textual variants in Rev 22:16-21that have no Greek support!5 That these variants were carried over in the KJV translation is problematic for KJV-only folks if they wish to deny that Erasmus was inspired. In particular, Rev 22:19 in the KJV reads: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Instead of “the book of life” the Greek text says “the tree of life.” No Greek MSS have “book of life” in this verse. Dr. Bruce Metzger points out that “The corruption of ‘tree’ into ‘book’ had occurred earlier in the transmission of the Latin text when a scribe accidentally miscopied the correct word ligno (‘tree’) as libro (‘book’).”6 Thus, a handwritten error that originated in Latin found its way into the first published Greek New Testament and consequently into the KJV. Yet this error is defended by KJV-only advocates as though it came from the pen of the apostle John himself. Why is it that this error is defended as inspired while other printing errors are not? Another well-known error is found in Jesus’ discourse against the religious leaders of his day, recorded in Matthew 23. In v. 24 the KJV reads, “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” The Greek verb ´¹Å»¯¶É means “to strain out.” I believe that the KJV of 1611 actually had this wording, but inexplicably changed it later to “strain at.” Some scholars argue that “strain at” is simply an archaic rendering of “strain out.” But, even if this is the case, few in the KJV camp today would interpret this phrase as “strain out.”7 Here is a place in which the KJV needs to be updated so that people can understand what is meant. After all, if inspiration implies preservation, and preservation implies accessibility, accessibility of meaning is just as important as accessibility of words. (It is in fact for the reason of accessibility that the Bible must be translated afresh every fifty years or so.) Third, to put all this in perspective: There are approximately 25,000 changes made in the KJV of the New Testament from the original version of 1611. But in the underlying Greek text, the numbers are significantly smaller: there are approximately 5000 changes between the Textus Receptus (the Greek text used by the KJV translators) and the modern critical texts (used as the base for modern translations). That’s one-fifth the amount of changes that have occurred within the KJV NT itself. To be sure, many of these are fairly significant. But none of them affects any major doctrine and most of them are—like the internal changes within the KJV tradition— spelling changes. In the least, this puts the matter in a bit of a different light. Again, the reason I don’t think the KJV is the best translation today is basically threefold: (1) its underlying text is farther from the original than is the text used in modern translations; (2) its translation is archaic, with now over 300 words that no longer mean what they did in 1611; (3) four hundred years of increased knowledge of the biblical world and languages have rendered many of the KJV renderings obsolete. All this is not to say that the KJV is a bad translation; I still think it stands as the greatest literary monument in the English language. And one can come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ reading the KJV just as one can get saved reading the NIV. But if one is seeking clarity and accuracy, a modern translation is much preferred. 1 According to the software program, Accordance, the KJV has 585, 761 words in the 39 books of the Old Testament that are accepted by Protestants as canonical; the KJV has 180,376 words in the New Testament. This comes out to a total of 766,137 words, or 25,191 words shorter than the number provided by Scott. (There are 155,683 words in the Apocrypha, the group of books that was almost always printed as part of the KJV Bible until late last century.) The difference is probably due to a wrong count somewhere, the possible incorporating of English titles as part of the text of scripture, or the inclusion of some material from the Apocrypha. 2 Inexplicably, Scott speaks of valid changes as those that include words only. He does not mention punctuation changes as valid. Punctuation changes can, of course, be rather significant. In the least, they ought to be counted. One group of changes that I did not count involved the older English transposition of ‘u’ for ‘v’ and vice versa (e.g., in 2 Sam 12:21 the 1611 KJV reads seruants vnto while the modern font has servants unto. This group of changes would qualify for Scott’s ‘font theory’ that he assumes I embrace. Hence, it was deliberately left out of the count. 3 Actually, the ratios are even tighter: the leaf from the 1611 KJV that I looked at begins with “changed” in 12:20. The first twelve words of the text are on the preceding leaf. 41 changes out of 354 words equals a ratio of 1:8.63. 4 Cf. F. F. Bruce, History of the Bible in English, third edition (Newy York: Oxford University Press, 1978) 108. 5 Even at 1 John 5:7-8 (the testimony about the Trinity in the KJV, known as the Comma Johanneum), in which Erasmus added the trinitarian formula in his third edition (1522) only because a Greek MS was made to order in 1520, virtually forcing Erasmus’ hand, the Dutch scholar did not copy out the Greek MS exactly. The reason is that the MS was a poor translation of the Latin, omitting the article before ‘Father,’ ‘Word,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’ (since there is no article in Latin, the scribe simply transferred the Latin over into the Greek, without making the necessary adjustment). But Erasmus added the article for each member of the Trinity, creating yet three more variants without any Greek MS support. 6 Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd edition (Stuttgart: Deustche Bibelgesellschaft, 1994) 690. 7 Oxford English Dictionary.s.v. “strain [verb],” 21: “It has been asserted that ‘straine at’ in the Bible of 1611 is a misprint for ‘straine out’, the rendering of earlier versions ... But quots. 1583 and 1594 show that the translators of 1611 simply adopted a rendering that had already obtained currency.” Although this may be true, the OED adds quickly that “The phrase, however, was early misapprehended (perh. already by Shaks. in quot. 1609), the verb being supposed to mean ‘to make violent effort.’”
That's why it's good to keep a KJV handy for those difficult verses. The "ye" in that passage does keep the passage clear. Yet our modern English uses "you" and "you". Which we are expected to apply in our reading comprehension. Modifiers are most important in modern English. But yes the KJV for such passages avoids any confusion.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
And you claim that all this is new to you:) Pants on fire, Bro.
But yes the KJV for such passages avoids any confusion. Thank God for MSWord version tracking.
That is just a cut and paste I read.
Outside of Judea most Jewish communities were most likely Hellenistic. They were like that for a few hundred years. Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire and business language. Jesus also preached in these Hellenistic influenced towns as in: From Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter." She could have spoke Aramaic but the area was Hellenized for quite a long time.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Thanks. I wonder if Mary and Joseph taught it to Him or if He just pciked it up in the schoolyard.
Well interestingly point. Some historians point to the account Jesus grew up in Nazareth which was near Sepphoris. Jesus grew up in Nazareth, which was a very small village near the Plain of Esdralon in Galilee. Although it is not mentioned in the Old Testament, there have been excavations revealing settlements in the area dating back to the Bronze Age, and tombs dating from the iron age to the Hasmonean period. The Biblical narrative reveals that Joseph and Mary lived here after their betrothal, in the announcement of Jesus' birth came to Mary here in Nazareth (Lk 1:26). Joseph made his living here as a carpenter possibly because it was near Sepphoris, a Hellenistic city being built by Herod Antipas. So a carpenter living not far from a good sized Hellenistic city with perhaps some business conducted Jesus may have grown up knowing some Greek or fluent in it.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
I believe that Jesus could speak and understand every language.
I agree. I took a textual and historic approach to SOSO's inquiry.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Nazareth was only 3 miles from Sepphoris, a large Greek speaking city.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
D.A. Waite and Kirk DiVitro were friends of mine, and so I long ago heard their positions.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
This is a surprisingly common occurrence in these various translations over the centuries. In many key passages, the translators will use a common rendering, not a strict translation from their chosen Greek textual authority. IOW, they adopt the readings that are familiar and traditional, generally out of fear that they will be criticized. Or so it seems. You can find this in the old translations like Tyndale, Bishops Bible, the Geneva, and the KJB itself. They tend to borrow renderings from each other. And even from the Vulgate. So for all their lecturing about the "best manuscripts", they still chicken out and use the accepted contemporary renderings on many foundational verses. It's an interesting but little-noted feature of these various translations.
For Moses that would be the original Hebrew. Why would it not be Egyptian for Moses? It was the only language he spoke his whole life and "Moses" is an Egyptian name not a Hebrew name.
"I am the ALPHA and OMEGA"
But He spoke also in Aramaic at least once: "Eli Eli lama sabachthani"
I did not imply Jesus spoke Greek on a regular basis - not at all. People of that period were multi-lingual - maybe Aramiac at home and Greek when working in the city or at the market, etc. Also, if Jesus lived in Egypt for his early years then Greek would have been one of the languages he spoke or had to be somewhat understanding of. It is clear he used Aramiac in his everyday life. We assume he could read Hebrew and he could speak or understand some Greek. Of course this gets tricky because as God Jesus has the supernatural ability to speak and understand any language so Jesus, when he was on earth chose to speak in a way that was as common to all in that region. No comment is made for Jesus speaking Latin in the NT. He speaks to Romans of course but the Romans could be speaking Greek to him as the default common tongue for that area and period.
Which breaks into two schools of thought. The first being the oldest is better (Alexandrian) and the other being the better manuscripts are the ones copied more (Byzantine). This was already solved by the Church. That was one of the reasons they ecumenical councils were called. The Church was underground for 500 years and in that time you had many confusions happening on text, etc - like a game of telephone. The Christian fathers of that time sifted through what they felt for sure was the correctly texts and what were not and made a decision. Revelations almost did not make it - and that shows they were very careful of what to include or not include. This has been the basis of the faith for 2,000 years - why change it? If you believe Jesus is God, than you think the Holy Spirit would allow the Church to make a permanent error for 2,000 years until someone finds a scrap of manuscript to correct it? That is the problem with Sola Scriptura - live by the text and die by the text. Texts change. The Church is eternal.
True, however, YHWH is God's Name in Hebrew.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
True, unless it is YHVH.
You missed the point. I offered information on the various text types. IMO the reason the Byzantine has the most copies is because that is what was used most and circulated most.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Perhaps the answer to many questions, concerning the 'new' various versions, can be found in the prophetic writings of Amos. Amos 8:11-14: 11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: I would suggest that the famine is of the true world of God, not the watered down versions we find today. Over the past 15 years, I have translated about 1/3 of the Bible, I can find, litterally no fault with the KJV.
Excellent study, Thanks, Bob
True, unless it is YHVH. I heard it translated/pronounced as YAHU at one point. http://www.revelations.org.za/NotesS-Name.htm But God told Moses his name was "I Am".
Actually, I wish the Christian debate about Bibles was on how the West should switch back to the Septuigent over the Masoratic.
I have made that argument as well, noting that the Byzantine has a much wider distribution of its manuscripts across the ancient world. John Burgon, the old defender of the KJV, was excellent on these points. However, it has occurred to me that Egypt was a major literary center of the ancient world but it lost its library at Alexandria to fire and it suffered the complete Muslim conquest. So there were undoubtedly more copies of Alexandrian manuscripts that disappeared due to fire and Muslims. With Egypt gone as a heartland of publishing, the balance of manuscripts would naturally shift to the non-Muslim areas of the Mideast and to Rome and especially Byzantium. Of course, I still prefer the Byzantine Majority Texts. And I do believe that, over the years, we will discover much older Byzantine texts. This upcoming fragment of Mark could be such a fragment. At present, one of the very oldest papyrus fragments is a member of the Majority Text manuscript family.
Also "Ephaphtha!" And "Talitha, koum"
Have you done any Old Testament translation? If so, has it been from the LXX Greek or Latin Vulgate, or has it been from the Hebrew Massoretic text? If from the Hebrew, I'm interested in hearing how you handle the Hebrew verb. I find this the most fascinating of all of the translation problems, because the Hebrew approach to action and time is so utterly foreign to the Indo- European approach (including even the modern Hebrew approach), that it affects the meaning of everything. Have you translated Genesis 1 from the Hebrew? Genesis 1 is probably the most important single piece of Biblical text for reading the rest of the Bible because so many words used throughout are literally DEFINED there by God, sort of like the way that lawyers define words at the front of contracts. I am really interested in speaking of the Hebrew verb in the context of Genesis 1, especially. So I'm hoping you'll tell me that Genesis 1 is indeed part of the 1/3rd you translated.
Or "I will be" Or "I was and still am and will be". Or "I live." Or "I will exist". Etc. The Hebrew imperfect is really hard to render into any Indo-European language without using multiple iterations, because it covers more than any single Indo-European verb tense. And "live", "exist" and "to be" are all the same word in Hebrew. The name YHWH can be translated into Greek or English as a sort of Venn diagram, a range of things. It's a feature of God to be ineffable.
It is Yod, Hey, Waw, Hey. Today Jews pronounce "W" as "V". How they pronounced it then is unknowable, given the absence of tape recorders. For that matter, we can assume that Jefferson, Washington and Lincoln all spoke with Southern accents given where they were born and who their parents were, but we don't know that for sure. Can't.
It's a very interesting subject.
Not America. The country is loaded with as many bibles as guns and the young people aren't interested in the bibles. I don't even need to comment.
The Use of Greek in New Testament Times In addition to Hebrew and Aramaic, it is also known that Greek was widely used in Palestine in the time of Jesus. A number of Greek writings from Palestine are known (4 Esra, 2 Maccabbees, parts of Esther, etc.), a Greek inscription forbidding non-Jews to enter the inner courts of the Jerusalem Temple has been found, as well as Greek texts in the Murabba’at caves and the family archives of Babatha at Wadi Habra. Countless inscriptions on ossuaries and graves from Jerusalem and its vicinity have also been recovered. It would not be out of place, then, to expect that Jesus spoke Greek in addition to Hebrew and Aramaic. It is quite possible that Jesus spoke Greek to Pontius Pilate in Matt. 27:11–14 and John 18:33–38, to the centurian in Matt. 8:5–13, and to “the woman of Canaan” in Matt. 15:22–28. Jesus was considered to be a scholar as the forms of address — Rabbi, Lord, Master — used for Him indicate. That a scholar of His rank, like most persons of the upper strata in Roman Palestine, used Greek in their contacts with the political authorities, with Gentile notables, and with Jews from other parts of the empire seems more than likely. In answer to our original question of what language or languages Jesus spoke, we must answer that He probably spoke all three of the languages that were in common use in Palestine in His day. Which language He spoke at any given time would have depended on the circumstance — Hebrew for religious purposes, Aramaic for common everyday conversation, and Greek when talking with other Greek-speakers. (“Insights From Qumran into the Languages of Jesus” by Pinchas Lapide in Revue de Qumran, No. 32, December 1975 (Tome 8, Fascicule 4), pp. 483-501.)
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Hebrew has no 'w' sound. I assume you're just batting for the Septuagint team here by offering some FUD.
Have you done any Old Testament translation? Yes, Genesis, part of Exodus, part of Amos, as well as parts of Malachi. Not the Vulgate!
While I agree about the number of Bibles and guns, I disagree that young people have no interest in the Word of God.
The only language in doubt that Jesus spoke (which is different from Jesus being able to) is Latin. Not because he would not want to speak Latin but that it was not needed. St Paul spoke Greek to the Tribune (or was it Centurian?) and he was a Roman citizen (which I assume meant he could speak Latin to attain citizenship).
Not America. The country is loaded with as many bibles as guns and the young people aren't interested in the bibles. While I agree about the number of Bibles and guns, I disagree that young people have no interest in the Word of God Is it all the bible or just the end times/Anti-christ stuff? That is all that motivated me to read the bible as a kid because it was cool and those were the only Sunday School lessons I paid attention to.
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: How does Babel work into this? The story from the NIV, not an enforsement but just a matter of convenience: Genesis 11 New International Version (NIV) The Tower of Babel 11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar[b] and settled there. 3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” 5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” 8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth. Has man ever overcome this confusion?
Maybe it was ancient aliens after all................
This would somewhat problematical for the Universal Redeemer to do. Who was in the audience when He gave the Sermon on the Mount? Only Hebrews? Did those around that bear witness to Him speak all the languages that Christ may have used? What about the writtings about Him in and around His time on earth? Only Greek?
And "live", "exist" and "to be" are all the same word in Hebrew. The name YHWH can be translated into Greek or English as a sort of Venn diagram, a range of things. It's a feature of God to be ineffable. {Sigh}
Today it doesn't. Originally, who knows? What it has is a pictograph, a waw or vav, is a tent peg. It's used to link one thing to the next, like a nail. There's no punctuation in Hebrew, but the tent peg tells you that these ideas are still connected with the ones before. If you take the pictographs YHWH. Y - yod - is a strong arm and hand. So, you've got the hand of God here. H - hey - is a pictograph of a man standing arms raised in exciting: HEY! It's sound is that of a breath, and it is used to insert a breath. Now, in Hebrew, breath is spirit, and spirit is breath. W is the tent peg. The word HWH - HaWaH (which we translate as "Eve", and then we continue to translate as "Life" as the MEANING of "Eve" (Adam called her "Eve", because she was the mother of all living - in other words, Adam called her "life"). What is "life" pictographically? It is BREATH linked to BREATH. Breath after breath after breath - that is the pictographic image of life and living in ancient Hebrew, and the WORD for Life, and being. And the "Yah" part - the yod? YHWH, hieroglyphically, is the hand that links breath/spirit to breath/spirit. In other words, the power/thing/being who makes life be. YHWH - The might hand of life - God. Pronunciation varies, and varied. If you followed the letter conventions, without vowels, it would be (today) Yo (yod) - Hey - Wa (or Va) - Hey: Yoheyvahey, or Yohewahey. Of course, "Life", and "Eve" are pronounced "Havah" (as in "Havah nagila", the song). And HWH, the last three letters of YHWH, are Havah, for God is life. Y is often written "Yah", and if we take that, we have "Yahavah". If we go with "Yod", then Yohavah or Yohawah. YHWH is the best way to write this, I think, and if you're got to pronounce it, choose what you prefer. I prefer "Yahawah", because that takes two known elements; Yah and Havah, and carries the meaning Yah is life, and then converts the V to the W to make a distinction that is important not in modern Hebrew but in ancient, when there were no vowel points but W was used as a vowel. V is not a vowel by its fricative nature. W is open, and can be a vowel (in English: Bryn Mwr uses W as a vowel). In Massoretic Hebrew, Vav takes a vowel point to make an "O", but in ancient Hebrew Waw/Vav stood alone. In the Massoretic Text, David is spelled DVD - Dalet - Vav - Dalet, with vowel points. But in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where there are no vowel points, "David" is spelled DWYD: Dalet, Waw (Vav) Yod Dalet - Dawyd, since the Waw is elsewhere employed as a vowel. Or, if you prefer, Davyd. The "Da" sound is carried by the Da-let, maybe W/V was pronounced "V", but elsewhere it works where we would put and "o" - so Da-O-Y-D. Reminds me of the priest in the Princess Bride: "Mawiage. Mawiage when there is wuv, twoo wuv..." Don't really know the ancient pronunciations, but there is revelation in the pictographs.
Not the Vulgate! Did you translate the LXX Genesis, or the MT Genesis, or a Dead Sea Scroll Genesis portion?
God's message is analog, not digital. "Because you know it's all about that bass, 'bout that bass, no treble!" - Meghan Traynor
That is a pedestrian line of questioning/musing, I am sorry to say. Also, the gift of speaking in tongues bestowed on the Apostles answers your question. Maybe it is troubling because you grew up with the "personal relationship with Jesus" posters or some such but Jesus is not your pal and he, knowing best, decided that his time on earth was for the people of Abraham with which he had a covenant with and then the Apostles would take over and continue on the next phase of his ministry. Why did Jesus do it like that? I don't know. It is His creation and we are all living in it.
Lost me on this one.
I wonder which one of my math texts in school was true.
Talk about a pedestrian line. LMAO.
I wonder which one of my math texts in school was true. According to Common Cause none of them.
Core
Or at least a healthy debate/discussion on such.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
Core Sorry, yes, Common Core.
I think you mean "Aramic". Aramic was the language spoken.
Good comeback though.
For the last couple of years, thoughts on ChristianPatriot.com have been in response to questions and discussions. I think if you visit www.ChristianPatriot.com you can get a feel for what is being discussed and asked.
It doesn't, not as far as I can see. Babel was in direct response to the disobedience, by the people to God's command to go worldwide. They all stayed in one place so God confused their languages casing them to go their separate ways.
Obviously God didn't approve of a One World Order:) However, did He ever unconfuse their languages?
I think you need to read Genesis chapters 1-11 Genesis Chapter One 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis Chapter Two 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and He (God) took one of his (Adams) ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis Chapter Three 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, 'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'" 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he (Adam) said, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." 11 And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, "The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; It (Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His (Jesus) heel. 16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of Us (Father, Son & Holy Ghost), to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis Chapter Four 1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his (sin) desire, and thuou shalt rule over him (sin). 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, "I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me." 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. 23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, "Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold." 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, she said, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis Chapter Five 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him; 2 Male and female created He them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. 6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos: 7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters: 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. 9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan: 10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters: 11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. 12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel: 13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters: 14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. 15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared: 16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters: 17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. 18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch: 19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. 21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech: 26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters: 27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. 30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters: 31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died. 32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Genesis Chapter Six 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish My covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. Genesis Chapter Seven 1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before Me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him. 6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth. 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in. 17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. 1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen. 6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made: 7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. 8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. 10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. 13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. 14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. 15 And God spake unto Noah, saying, 16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. 17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth. 18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: 19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark. 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. 1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between Me and all flesh that is upon the earth. 18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. 20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." 26 And he said, "Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." 28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. 1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. 6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. 7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. 8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. 10 And the beginning of his (Nimrod's) kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, 12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city. 13 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, 14 and Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. 15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth. 16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, 17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, 18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha. 20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations. 21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born. 22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. 23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. 24 And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber. 25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. 26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, 27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, 28 And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, 29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east. 31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. 32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood. 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they (decedents of Nimrod, the son of Cush, the son of Noah) journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, "Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly". And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, "Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. 10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: 11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: 13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. 14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber: 15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. 16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg: 17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters. 18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu: 19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters. 20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug: 21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters. 22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor: 23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah: 25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters. 26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. 27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot. 28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees. 29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. 30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child. 31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and he went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. 32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.
It was a stupid joke on my part. Forget I ever wrote it.
I think the best way to explain what I did is to show you how I do it. Over the next few days or weeks I am going to be doing Remember me, from Luke 23: 39 And [de] one [heis] of the malefactors [kakourgos] which were hanged [kremannumi] railed [blasphemeo] on him [autos], saying [lego], If [ei] thou [su] be [ei] Christ [Christos], save [sozo] thyself [seautou] and [kai] us [hemas]. 40 But [de] the other [heteros] answering [apokrinomai] rebuked [epitimao] him [autos], saying [lego], Dost [phobeo] not [oude] thou [su] fear [phobeo] God [theos], seeing [hoti] thou art [ei] in [en] the same [autos] condemnation [krima]? 41 And [kai] we [hemeis] indeed [men] justly [dikaios]; for [gar] we receive [apolambano] the due reward [axios] of our [hos] deeds [prasso]: but [de] this man [houtos] hath done [prasso] nothing [oudeis] amiss [atopos]. 42 And [kai] he said [lego] unto Jesus [Iesous], Lord [kurios], remember [mnaomai] me [mou] when [hotan] thou comest [erchomai] into [en] thy [sou] kingdom [basileia]. 43 And [kai] Jesus [Iesous] said [epo] unto him [autos], Verily [amen] I say [lego] unto thee [soi], To day [semeron] shalt thou be [esomai] with [meta] me [emou] in [en] paradise [paradeisos]. Now, since I am in NM, not Maine, I have a very limited number of study guides available, none of my Hebrew and but many of the Greek, so I need to stay with the NT. I hope, I can answer your questions as I go.
And your point is (25 words or less if you can, please)?
I see what you've done. Splendid. I'd like to see it for Genesis 1. In particular, it is the treatment of the Hebrew verb that I'm focused upon, and most specifically, the imperfect tense. The perfect tense is easy, but the imperfect is really quite hard to render fully into English (or Greek, or any other time-stream-based language) precisely because the point of reference is different. I'd live to see how you handled it.
I can't answer your original question without your first having an understanding of the Biblical account of the Tower of Babel. Perhaps another may be able to.
I promise to go step by step as I do Remember me. But, here is a pretty good example of a finished thought: www.christianpatriot.com/07-04-2014.htm
But, here is a pretty good example of a finished thought: www.christianpatriot.com/07-04-2014.htm Thank you. And thank you for the link. It's the particularities of the Imperfect Verb in Hebrew that are really of tremendous interest to me.
I'll leave it to you to dictate to the Jews what ancient Hebrew is or is not.
The "Jews", by the fact of being Jewish, do not have any innate knowledge of their ancient language. Nobody speaks it, and they have to learn it academically just like anybody else. You're probably Irish, or German. So, do you speak Irish Gaelic, or German? And if so, do you read Ogham, or can you read and speak old Plattsdeutsch? Not unless you've studied it. Ancient Hebrew had vowels. Middle and Modern Hebrew use vowel points. There are no vowel points in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Rather, the Scriptural texts are spelled differently in them, because consonants are used as vowels. There are very distinct pronunciation differences between Sephardic Hebrew and Ashkenazi Hebrew accents today, and we have recordings to hear the difference. There is no way to record ancient sound. I recall the same lesson from Latin class. The word "magna", as in Magna Cum Laude - back in Latin class I was told it is "Magg-na", though it is always pronounced and sung as "man-ya" in liturgical music. And how do ITALIANS pronounce the "gn"? As n-y. And when ITALIANS learn Latin, how do THEY pronounce "Magna"? They pronounce it as "man-ya". So do the French. But in American schools, we teach (or taught) that the "PROPER" ancient pronunciation is "Guh-N", like magma, but with an "n". There's no ancient tape recording to tell us that, and no ancient grammar that spells it out for us. It's just an academic assertion. At least scholars of ancient Greek admit that ancient Greek was not pronounced the way that scholastic ancient Greek is pronounced. They pronounce it that way to emphasize the spelling. With Hebrew, there was no language spoken for 1000 years. It was dead and gone. The revival of modern Hebrew was a PURELY academic exercise. Modern Hebrew is like Esperanto: it was the product of the university. In the case of Hebrew, it was certain ardent Zionists who took the ancient Hebrew and revived it. But they did not retain the ancient Hebrew verb forms. Why? Because they were modern Europeans, mostly living in Germany and France and England, and they could no more fathom the use of a language that didn't reference time than we can. So, MODERN Hebrew is an Indo-European language in terms of its verb structure, and much more closely related to German than to ancient Hebrew in this crucial aspect. It uses ancient Hebrew letters and words - pronounced like 19th Century Germans. Now, of course, as the Zionists took steam, there were Jews from the Ottoman Empire and North Africa, with their OWN pronunciations, and because these pronuciations came from the sandy areas, they were adopted as more "authentic". Truth: nobody knows how the ancient language was pronounced. There are clues from surviving languages (such as "man-ya" in Italian, for Latin), and various Arabic words. It's based on that that the scholars tells us that once upon a time "Vav" was "W". It doesn't really matter, but it's certainly not ME who is just making things up from wholecloth. But no, being Jewish does not inherently mean one understands ancient Hebrew better, or pronounces it correctly.
Great summary. Thanks.
"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa
You are fixated on pronunciation for a word the Jews were always forbidden to speak. Or were all the copies of ancient Hebrew documents lost as well?
JewsAndJoes: The Ben Asher manuscripts (Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex) are considered the earliest complete manuscripts of the Tanakh (10th Century CE). They render the Name as YeH-Vah, removing the "o" (cholam) vowel in order to remind the reader not to say The-Name (the 10th Century Masoretes accepted the rabbinic ban on pronunciation). The scribe of the Leningrad Codex (the LenB19a manuscript) deliberately or mistakenly forgot to remove the cholam 50 out of 6828 times. According to Nehemia Gordon (a Karaite Hakham), there were no other vowels accidentally inserted for the Vov in the Divine Name in this manuscript**. I don't mean to sound contentious here, but it is intriguing how Yahweh-ists belittle the "YeHo-" prefix which was traditionally supported by ancient Jewish scribes... and yet whole-heartedly claim El-ordained inspiration on those very same texts transmitted by the same Jewish scribes. Note: A photographic (lithographic) edition of the original manuscript has been published here: The Leningrad Codex; A Facsimile Edition Are you sure you're not just batting for the Septuagint team here?
No I am not.
No they used the word adamic. Meaning the language that Adam spoke.
Yes, I am sure. The LXX is a wonderful document. But to delve into Genesis, you need the pictographs. Also, the LXX doesn't do the Hebrew imperfect verb any justice. It simply replaces it with the verb tense that fits the Jewish theology of 150 BC. That's good enough for everything else, but it fails utterly when dealing with Genesis 1.
Which we can't possibly know unless it's revealed to us. It is true that some of the names in Genesis before the Flood are not Hebrew names. They're names composed of Hebrew components that can be reasoned out into meanings, but it's a speculative exercise. It would appear from the naming conventions that whatever they were speaking back then may have been a very, very Paleo-Hebrew, but it's not the Hebrew of Moses or of Caiaphas, or of today.
You place a lot of confidence in that chapter being a key to unlock mysteries. Yet we know it has to have one of the most dubious pedigrees of O.T. scripture. Not that I would expect you to agree.
Did someone say Paleo-Hebrew? Below you will see some examples of the Divine Name in Early (c.1500 BCE) and Middle (c.900 BCE) Paleo-Hebrew. The Divine Name in Middle Paleo-Hebrew: Another example of Middle Paleo-Hebrew:
When I get back to Maine, I will try to help, but please bear in mind, I am not real healthy and may not be able to.
We don't "know" that. The origin of all Scripture is shaky. These documents were copied because people believed in their content. They believed in their content because they believed in tradition, or because they saw miracles.
Ok. Thanks. Please don't worry about this. Life is short, and there are far more important issues to deal with than satisfying the curiosity of some anonymous guy on the Internet. As I think on it, please DON'T remember this, and please DON'T spend any time on it for me. Such time as we have is precious, and as it gets shorter, it must be meted out to the best use. I already know God, and I've already got a good fix on how to deal with the Hebrew Imperfect. I just find it fascinating to see how others deal with it. My casual intellectual fascination should not take one moment away from you spending that time on people who need it from you more than I do.
And the name of that letter, with the arms up in surprise? The name of that letter is HEY! Hey! Hey! It's a good name for a picture of, well, HEY! And the meaning? It's a breath, like a gasp. Look at a the picture, look at what is happening in the picture, gasp of surprise - HEY! - and it MEANS a breath. And breath is spirit. THIS is the letter that was added to Abram to make him Abraham, and to Sarai to make her Sarah. And what is breath? Breath is spirit. So, the spirit was added to them when they were lifted up to their status by God. HEY! Isn't that amazing! Now draw the surprised gasping man, Hhhhhhhhh! Arms up in surprise. HEY! The pictographs describe the word and are onomatopoeic. Now look at the name EL. This is the shortest name of God. It means "Mighty one". It's an Aleph - an "A", which is the head of a bull. And a "lamed" - a shepherd's staff. Mighty bull head and shepherd's staff: AL. This is the NAME of God, it means "Mighty One", but the PICTOGRAPHS of the name of God are the "The leader/mighty one/lord [is my] Shepherd". AL. (El). Now look at the plural form, which is the first time the name of God stands alone in Scripture, the third word of Scripture, Elohiym. This is AL, "El" plus HYM. H - HEY! The infusion of spirit, of breath - the Holy Spirit since it's El. And then Y - Yod - the Arm and Hand - the mighty hand of El. And then M - Mem - the pictograph is water, "Mayim" is the word "waters" (always a plural) but the root "Mem" is of fluid, of flow, of disorder and chaos. So, read the name Elohiym: The Lord (my shepherd) [whose] Spirit (breath - H - Hey) and mighty arm/hand (Yod) [are over] the Chaos/Water. Now read the sentence in WHICH that word, Elohiym, is embedded. "In the beginning, God created the sky and the land, and the land was confused and empty and the spirit of God on the surface of the deep sea." Plunge into the pictographs, and there are details. The first word speaks of the division of El - before "The Beginning" there is El divided in two and the Cross - right there in the first word, even before you say the first word. It's THERE, and it's BEEN THERE in plain sight since God wrote it/dictated it. These are not trivial things. They make the whole thing clear and give it an impossible depth and sharpness, literally impossible. This is not some vague tea-leaf reading either. It's sharp, and the very sharpness of it, in random sounds, is the most stunning proof WITHIN Scripture of the divine origin of Scripture, at least of Genesis 1. It's the only part of the text of Scripture itself that is itself miraculous in its content. But one has to be willing to look. It's not in anybody's tradition, for very good reasons, but it's THERE, for anybody to behold.
It doesn't unlock mysteries. It presents them in plain view, right there in the hieroglyphics. Remember how autographs are the actual Scripture, and copies are copies. Well, the autographs have the pictographs, and the pictographs have meaning, and sound. Each word is itself a sentence, in the original, and that's CLEAR with the pictographs. It's not some sort of esoteric or hidden thing. It's right there in plain view...for any ancient Hebrew in the desert out of Egypt who could read Egyptian hieroglyphics to see. 50 generations, 5 language and 6 alphabet shifts later this is obscured, but that's because the details of the autograph are not conveyed in the transmission, not because this is secret or esoteric knowledge. Anybody can learn the pictographs and ancient Hebrew and read it like an ancient, and see it. If you've gotta reduce hieroglyphic pictographs to mere phonetic letters, you are inevitably going to plane off a lot of content. If you then convert to other languages that use the verb very differently, you're going to lose more. You CAN read it in English, but you have to use a lot more words than you use in Hebrew, because you have to translate the pictures as well as the surface words, and for the Hebrew imperfect you have to present about 6 English verb tenses, from the past into the future, to convey the indefinite incompletion of the action. Example: on the fifth day, God did not create fish and birds, rather, he "began to fatten the swimmers and the flyers". "Began to" is not the same thing as "did". "Did" means that he started and finished, but "began to" means that he didn't finish. This addresses one of the charges of conflict between Genesis 2, that things happened in different order. Well, they didn't. On each of the six days, the Powers (God) BEGIN TO do something. These open verbs are not COMPLETED, until the seventh day. And so the challenge that things are in different order between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, which is a valid and true criticism of the English translation, evaporates in the Hebrew. The other reason Genesis 1 matters is because words are presented there for the first time, and defined. Important words, like "day", and "night", and "soul", and what the "image of God" entails. Also, the gender of different aspects of God. Later on, when we're just in the narrative text about what men are doing and saying, these issues all become trivial: there is nothing new under the sun, just a rearranging of the chairs and pieces. But at Creation, there IS the new, there's even the sun itself, new. Also, for everybody but Jews before the destruction of the Temple, all of the commandments that God gives mankind are given in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, with two of them given on the very day of creation of mankind. All the rest of Scripture between Genesis 11 and Matthew 1 is the side story of a particular family and a series of 6 covenants made and repeated to members of that family and its spin offs. Laws are given, policies and procedures stated, all for THEM. Not for us. We do not return to the story as objects of commandments and law until Jesus. When it comes to history and how we got from Babel to Bethlehem, the intervening Scripture is important, but when it comes to LAW, actual binding LAW on Gentiles, nothing in the Old Testament after Genesis 11 is about us. Genesis 1 is, in fact, the most important text in the Old Testament. And Revelation is, in fact, the most important text in the New Testament. Because the first chapter explains how everything got here and gives the Prime Directives that govern human existence. And the last book promises life after this, says what comes next, and says how a soul created in this world can come to enjoy the world to come...and gives the bill of particulars of what will get you killed. If one took three of the first 11 chapters of Genesis and the last two chapters of the Book of Revelation, one would have the whole law of mankind and know everything one needs to know. The rest is all detail for those who wish to know more and see it unfold, to deepen their belief and their understanding. I advocate reading it all, AND looking at the physical miracles.
Ok. Thanks. Please don't worry about this. Life is short, and there are far more important issues to deal with than satisfying the curiosity of some anonymous guy on the Internet. As I think on it, please DON'T remember this, and please DON'T spend any time on it for me. Such time as we have is precious, and as it gets shorter, it must be meted out to the best use. I already know God, and I've already got a good fix on how to deal with the Hebrew Imperfect. I just find it fascinating to see how others deal with it. My casual intellectual fascination should not take one moment away from you spending that time on people who need it from you more than I do. Thank you, but we will do "Remember me".
Thanks for the video. Yes, Aramaic was the language Jesus spoke of. And interesting enough, most people do not realize that Jesus was the Second Adam made of the spirit. The first Adam was made of the flesh. It is unclear to me where the notion of the "Adamic" language ever came from. That is new to me.
I have heard of this language before but it made no sense to me.
#2. To: _V_, redleghunter, SOSO (#0)
#3. To: TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO (#2)
#4. To: Pericles, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#3)
TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO
#5. To: SOSO (#4)
#6. To: A K A Stone (#5)
Some people believe that Moses wrote the first books of the Bible. I just thought I wold add that.
#7. To: TooConservative (#2)
John 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
#8. To: Pericles (#3)
#9. To: _V_ (#0)
"And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" (Exodus 16:28, NKJV) It looks like God is saying, "Moses, you are continuing to refuse to keep My commandments and My laws." But look carefully at the accurate King James:
#10. To: redleghunter (#8)
The NKJV was the adopted English version of the NT selected for the OSB.
#11. To: Pericles, TooConservative, Soso, GarySpFc (#3)
#12. To: A K A Stone (#10)
#13. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#14. To: redleghunter, Pericles, TooConservative, GarySpFc (#11)
The Alexandrian text type stopped appearing in the Greek texts in the 700's after a long period of tapering off.
#15. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, Orthodoxa, vicomte13, liberator, TooConservative (#4)
In what language did God converse...?
#16. To: SOSO, Pericles, Orthodoxa, GarySpFc, TooConservative (#14)
Why was that, especially if they were the older of the two?
#17. To: _V_ (#0)
#18. To: A K A Stone (#9)
I don't even get why they can get away with calling it the new King James version. King James had absolutely nothing to do with it.
#19. To: redleghunter (#15)
Jesus most likely spoke in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
#20. To: GarySpFC (#18)
#21. To: A K A Stone (#9)
#22. To: A K A Stone (#20)
#23. To: redleghunter (#21)
That's why it's good to keep a KJV handy for those difficult verses. The "ye" in that passage does keep the passage clear. Yet our modern English uses "you" and "you". Which we are expected to apply in our reading comprehension. Modifiers are most important in modern English.
#24. To: SOSO (#22)
#25. To: SOSO (#19)
Greek? What is he basis for thinking that? Who around Him spoke Greek?
#26. To: redleghunter (#25)
#27. To: SOSO (#26)
Thanks. I wonder if Mary and Joseph taught it to Him or if He just pciked it up in the schoolyard.
#28. To: redleghunter, SOSO, Orthodoxa, Vicmonte13 (#27)
So a carpenter living not far from a good sized Hellenistic city with perhaps some business conducted Jesus may have grown up knowing some Greek or fluent in it.
#29. To: A K A Stone (#28)
#30. To: SOSO (#26)
Thanks. I wonder if Mary and Joseph taught it to Him or if He just pciked it up in the schoolyard.
#31. To: A K A Stone (#20)
#32. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#20)
7 Oxford English Dictionary.s.v. “strain [verb],” 21: “It has been asserted that ‘straine at’ in the Bible of 1611 is a misprint for ‘straine out’, the rendering of earlier versions ... But quots. 1583 and 1594 show that the translators of 1611 simply adopted a rendering that had already obtained currency.” Although this may be true, the OED adds quickly that “The phrase, however, was early misapprehended (perh. already by Shaks. in quot. 1609), the verb being supposed to mean ‘to make violent effort.’”
#33. To: redleghunter, SOSO, GarySpFc, Orthodoxa, vicomte13, liberator, TooConservative (#15)
n what language did God converse...? In the languages they all understood. If they didn't understand what God was communicating, then they could not write it down.
#34. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#19)
(Edited)
esus most likely spoke in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Greek? What is he basis for thinking that? Who around Him spoke Greek?
#35. To: Pericles (#34)
"I am the ALPHA and OMEGA"
#36. To: A Pole (#35)
#37. To: redleghunter, SOSO, A Pole, Vicomte13, Orthodoxa, GarySpFc, TooConservative (#16)
Why was that, especially if they were the older of the two? Yet according to the linked piece I provided they were only 5% of the 5,000 or so manuscripts known.
#38. To: Pericles, SOSO, GarySpFc, Orthodoxa, vicomte13, liberator, TooConservative (#33)
Why would it not be Egyptian for Moses? It was the only language he spoke his whole life and "Moses" is an Egyptian name not a Hebrew name.
#39. To: redleghunter (#38)
True, however, YHWH is God's Name in Hebrew.
#40. To: Pericles (#37)
This has been the basis of the faith for 2,000 years - why change it? If you believe Jesus is God, than you think the Holy Spirit would allow the Church to make a permanent error for 2,000 years until someone finds a scrap of manuscript to correct it? That is the problem with Sola Scriptura - live by the text and die by the text. Texts change. The Church is eternal.
#41. To: SOSO, Pericles, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc, all (#1)
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again. (KJV)
#42. To: A K A Stone (#20)
#43. To: TooConservative, redleghunter, SOSO, GarySpFc, Orthodoxa, vicomte13, liberator, TooConservative (#39)
True, however, YHWH is God's Name in Hebrew.
#44. To: redleghunter (#40)
#45. To: redleghunter (#40)
You missed the point. I offered information on the various text types. IMO the reason the Byzantine has the most copies is because that is what was used most and circulated most.
#46. To: A Pole (#35)
But He spoke also in Aramaic at least once: "Eli Eli lama sabachthani"
#47. To: BobCeleste (#41)
Over the past 15 years, I have translated about 1/3 of the Bible, I can find, litterally no fault with the KJV.
#48. To: Pericles (#43)
But God told Moses his name was "I Am".
#49. To: TooConservative (#39)
rue, unless it is YHVH.
#50. To: Pericles (#44)
Actually, I wish the Christian debate about Bibles was on how the West should switch back to the Septuigent over the Masoratic.
#51. To: BobCeleste (#41)
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
#52. To: ALL (#35)
#53. To: Vicomte13 (#49)
It is Yod, Hey, Waw, Hey.
#54. To: Vicomte13 (#47)
Over the past 15 years, I have translated about 1/3 of the Bible, I can find, litterally no fault with the KJV.
#55. To: TooConservative (#51)
Not America. The country is loaded with as many bibles as guns and the young people aren't interested in the bibles.
#56. To: GarySpFC (#52)
In answer to our original question of what language or languages Jesus spoke, we must answer that He probably spoke all three of the languages that were in common use in Palestine in His day. Which language He spoke at any given time would have depended on the circumstance — Hebrew for religious purposes, Aramaic for common everyday conversation, and Greek when talking with other Greek-speakers. (“Insights From Qumran into the Languages of Jesus” by Pinchas Lapide in Revue de Qumran, No. 32, December 1975 (Tome 8, Fascicule 4), pp. 483-501.)
#57. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#55)
(Edited)
#58. To: BobCeleste, Pericles, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc, all (#41)
Amos 8:11-14:
#59. To: SOSO, BobCeleste, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, SOSO, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#58)
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
#60. To: GarySpFC, BobCeleste, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#52)
Which language He spoke at any given time would have depended on the circumstance — Hebrew for religious purposes, Aramaic for common everyday conversation, and Greek when talking with other Greek-speakers.
#61. To: Vicomte13, Pericles, GarySpFc, Orthodoxa, redleghunter, liberator, TooConservative (#48)
The Hebrew imperfect is really hard to render into any Indo-European language without using multiple iterations, because it covers more than any single Indo-European verb tense.
#62. To: TooConservative (#53)
(Edited)
Hebrew has no 'w' sound.
#63. To: BobCeleste (#54)
Yes, Genesis, part of Exodus, part of Amos, as well as parts of Malachi.
#64. To: SOSO (#61)
{Sigh}
#65. To: SOSO, GarySpFC, BobCeleste, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13, redleghunter (#60)
Which language He spoke at any given time would have depended on the circumstance — Hebrew for religious purposes, Aramaic for common everyday conversation, and Greek when talking with other Greek-speakers. This would somewhat problematical for the Universal Redeemer to do. Who was in the audience when He gave the Sermon on the Mount? Only Hebrews? Did those around that bear witness to Him speak all the languages that Christ may have used? What about the writtings about Him in and around His time on earth? Only Greek?
#66. To: Vicomte13 (#64)
"Because you know it's all about that bass, 'bout that bass, no treble!" - Meghan Traynor
#67. To: _V_ (#0)
#68. To: Pericles, GarySpFC, BobCeleste, TooConservative, _V_, redleghunter, Orthodoxa, A Pole, Vicomte13 (#65)
Why did Jesus do it like that? I don't know. It is His creation and we are all living in it.
#69. To: Palmdale, _V_, All (#67)
#70. To: SOSO (#69)
According to Common Cause none of them.
#71. To: Pericles (#44)
Actually, I wish the Christian debate about Bibles was on how the West should switch back to the Septuigent over the Masoratic.
#72. To: Palmdale (#70)
According to Common Cause none of them.
#73. To: A K A Stone (#5)
There was something on wikipedia that suggested that the "adamic" or something like that language was Hebrew.
#74. To: SOSO (#72)
#75. To: goldilucky (#73)
#76. To: Pericles (#57)
Is it all the bible or just the end times/Anti-christ stuff?
#77. To: SOSO (#58)
How does Babel work into this?
#78. To: BobCeleste (#77)
They all stayed in one place so God confused their languages casing them to go their separate ways.
#79. To: SOSO (#78)
Genesis Chapter Eight
Genesis Chapter Nine
Genesis Chapter Ten
Genesis Chapter Eleven
#80. To: SOSO (#66)
Lost me on this one.
#81. To: Vicomte13 (#63)
#82. To: BobCeleste (#79)
#83. To: BobCeleste (#81)
Now, since I am in NM, not Maine, I have a very limited number of study guides available, none of my Hebrew and but many of the Greek, so I need to stay with the NT. I hope, I can answer your questions as I go.
#84. To: SOSO (#82)
#85. To: Vicomte13 (#83)
#86. To: BobCeleste (#85)
I promise to go step by step as I do Remember me.
#87. To: Vicomte13 (#62)
Today it doesn't. Originally, who knows?
#88. To: TooConservative (#87)
I'll leave it to you to dictate to the Jews what ancient Hebrew is or is not.
#89. To: TooConservative (#45)
#90. To: Vicomte13 (#88)
Truth: nobody knows how the ancient language was pronounced.
#91. To: Vicomte13 (#88)
#92. To: TooConservative (#90)
You are fixated on pronunciation for a word the Jews were always forbidden to speak. Or were all the copies of ancient Hebrew documents lost as well?
#93. To: goldilucky (#73)
I think you mean "Aramic". Aramic was the language spoken.
#94. To: TooConservative (#91)
Are you sure you're not just batting for the Septuagint team here?
#95. To: A K A Stone (#93)
No they used the word adamic. Meaning the language that Adam spoke.
#96. To: Vicomte13 (#94)
That's good enough for everything else, but it fails utterly when dealing with Genesis 1.
#97. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#95)
I liked the old ones where the 'H' looks like a "Don't Shoot" protester.
The-Name in Paleo-Hebrew
The Divine Name in Early Paleo-Hebrew: 
#98. To: Vicomte13 (#86)
It's the particularities of the Imperfect Verb in Hebrew that are really of tremendous interest to me.
#99. To: TooConservative (#96)
Yet we know it has to have one of the most dubious pedigrees of O.T. scripture
#100. To: BobCeleste (#98)
When I get back to Maine, I will try to help, but please bear in mind, I am not real healthy and may not be able to.
#101. To: TooConservative (#97)
I liked the old ones where the 'H' looks like a "Don't Shoot" protester.
#102. To: TooConservative (#96)
You place a lot of confidence in that chapter being a key to unlock mysteries.
#103. To: Vicomte13 (#100)
When I get back to Maine, I will try to help, but please bear in mind, I am not real healthy and may not be able to.
#104. To: Palmdale (#75)
#105. To: A K A Stone (#93)
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