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Title: Mummy Mask May Reveal Oldest Known Gospel
Source: livescience.com
URL Source: http://www.livescience.com/49489-oldest-known-gospel-mummy-mask.html
Published: Jan 18, 2015
Author: Owen Jarus
Post Date: 2015-01-18 18:39:21 by Fibr Dog
Keywords: None
Views: 69949
Comments: 202

A text that may be the oldest copy of a gospel known to exist — a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that was written during the first century, before the year 90 — is set to be published.

At present, the oldest surviving copies of the gospel texts date to the second century (the years 101 to 200).

This first-century gospel fragment was written on a sheet of papyrus that was later reused to create a mask that was worn by a mummy. Although the mummies of Egyptian pharaohs wore masks made of gold, ordinary people had to settle for masks made out of papyrus (or linen), paint and glue. Given how expensive papyrus was, people often had to reuse sheets that already had writing on them.

In recent years scientists have developed a technique that allows the glue of mummy masks to be undone without harming the ink on the paper. The text on the sheets can then be read.

The first-century gospel is one of hundreds of new texts that a team of about three-dozen scientists and scholars is working to uncover, and analyze, by using this technique of ungluing the masks, said Craig Evans, a professor of New Testament studies at Acadia Divinity College in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.

"We're recovering ancient documents from the first, second and third centuries. Not just Christian documents, not just biblical documents, but classical Greek texts, business papers, various mundane papers, personal letters," Evans told Live Science. The documents include philosophical texts and copies of stories by the Greek poet Homer.

The business and personal letters sometimes have dates on them, he said. When the glue was dissolved, the researchers dated the first-century gospel in part by analyzing the other documents found in the same mask.

One drawback to the process is that the mummy mask is destroyed, and so scholars in the field are debating whether that particular method should be used to reveal the texts they contain.

But Evans emphasized that the masks that are being destroyed to reveal the new texts are not high quality ones that would be displayed in a museum. Some are not masks at all but are simply pieces of cartonnage.

Evans told Live Science, "We're not talking about the destruction of any museum-quality piece."

The technique is bringing many new texts to light, Evans noted. "From a single mask, it's not strange to recover a couple dozen or even more" new texts, he told Live Science. "We're going to end up with many hundreds of papyri when the work is done, if not thousands."

Debate

Scholars who work on the project have to sign a nondisclosure agreement that limits what they can say publicly. There are several reasons for this agreement. One is that some of the owners of these masks simply do not want to be made known, Evans said. "The scholars who are working on this project have to honor the request of the museums, universities, private owners, so forth."

The owners of the mummy masks retain ownership of the papyrus sheets after the glue on them is dissolved.

Evans said that the only reason he can talk about the first-century gospel before it is published is because a member of the team leaked some of the information in 2012. Evans was careful to say that he is not telling Live Science anything about the first-century gospel that hasn't already been leaked online.

Soon after the 2012 leak, speculation surrounded the methods that the scholars used to figure out the gospel's age.

Evans says that the text was dated through a combination of carbon-14 dating, studying the handwriting on the fragment and studying the other documents found along with the gospel. These considerations led the researchers to conclude that the fragment was written before the year 90. With the nondisclosure agreement in place, Evans said that he can't say much more about the text's date until the papyrus is published.

Destruction of mummy masks

The process that is used to obtain the papyri, which involves the destruction of the mummy masks, has also generated debate. For instance, archaeologist Paul Barford, who writes about collecting and heritage issues, has written a scathing blog post criticizing the work on the gospel.

Roberta Mazza, a lecturer in Classics and Ancient History at the University of Manchester, has blogged her concerns about the text as has Brice Jones, a doctoral candidate in religion at Concordia University.

When the texts are published the debate is likely to move beyond the blogosphere and into mainstream media and scholarly journals.

Biblical clues

Although the first-century gospel fragment is small, the text will provide clues as to whether the Gospel of Mark changed over time, Evans said.

His own research is focused on analyzing the mummy mask texts, to try to determine how long people held onto them before disposing or reusing them. This can yield valuable information about how biblical texts were copied over time.

"We have every reason to believe that the original writings and their earliest copies would have been in circulation for a hundred years in most cases — in some cases much longer, even 200 years," he said.

This means that "a scribe making a copy of a script in the third century could actually have at his disposal (the) first-century originals, or first-century copies, as well as second-century copies."

Set to publish

Evans said that the research team will publish the first volume of texts obtained through the mummy masks and cartonnage later this year. It will include the gospel fragment that the researchers believe dates back to the first century.

The team originally hoped the volume would be published in 2013 or 2014, but the date had to be moved back to 2015. Evans said he is uncertain why the book's publication was delayed, but the team has made use of the extra time to conduct further studies into the first-century gospel. "The benefit of the delay is that when it comes out, there will be additional information about it and other related texts."

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#39. To: Orthodoxa, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#30)

until thou hadst banished far off the godless error of Arius and hadst saved the faithful flock from his grievous impiety, when with right belief thou didst teach that the Son and Spirit both are one in essence with the Father, O sacred minister blessed of God.

Athanasius led a great Christian life, a titan of the ancient church. In many ways, more admirable than Augustine and some others of considerable reputation.

Too bad they couldn't include a reference to Athanasius' fiery defender, Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari.

Lucifer of Cagliari's surviving writings, all of which date from the period of his exile, are directed against Arianism and reconciliation with heresy. His works are written in the form of speeches delivered directly to Constantius and repeatedly address the emperor in the second person throughout. His main writings are Moriundum esse pro Dei filio (It is Necessary to Die for the Son of God), De non conveniendo cum haereticis (On not meeting with heretics), De regibus apostaticis (On apostate kings), De non parcendo in Deum delinquentibus (On not forgiving those who transgress against God) and the two books of Quia absentem nemo debet iudicare nec damnare, sive De Athanasio (That no one ought to be judged or damned while absent, or On Athanasius). His texts quote extensively from the Bible and so are useful as sources for the Vetus Latina. Also extant is a pair of letters which are allegedly correspondence between Lucifer and the emperor's secretary Florentius on the subject of some of Lucifer's inflammatory works that he had sent to Constantius.

Not a mousy guy. If the emperor killed him for it, he was going to say what he passionately believed. He had much of the stuff of the early martyrs of the church: "Here I stand, I can do no other" as Martin Luther would say. He had the kind of passion that characterizes some of Paul's best writing. As much as scripture councils us to be obedient to secular authority, these early Christians went well beyond what most would imagine. It is a challenge to see them as living out their ordinary daily lives as these events unfold. Christianity was revolutionizing Roman society. We find it difficult to grasp what a profound change this was to a Roman empire mired in paganism and philosophy.

Athanasius had to have been a man of considerable personal charisma as well as being a practical bishop, a man who possessed a shrewd and subtle view of the conflicts of his era and the future of the church as a state religion.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-18   21:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: TooConservative (#39)

Not a mousy guy. If the emperor killed him for it, he was going to say what he passionately believed. He had much of the stuff of the early martyrs of the church: "Here I stand, I can do no other" as Martin Luther would say. He had the kind of passion that characterizes some of Paul's best writing. As much as scripture councils us to be obedient to secular authority, these early Christians went well beyond what most would imagine. It is a challenge to see them as living out their ordinary daily lives as these events unfold. Christianity was revolutionizing Roman society. We find it difficult to grasp what a profound change this was to a Roman empire mired in paganism and philosophy.

Athanasius had to have been a man of considerable personal charisma as well as being a practical bishop, a man who possessed a shrewd and subtle view of the conflicts of his era and the future of the church as a state religion.

Your own summary probably reveals why Athanasius was canonized as a Saint and Lucifer of Cagliari was not.

While Athanasius unquestionably did not give a weak defense of Orthodox doctrine, even though he was often treated cruelly and spent much of his life in exile, he reportedly was so kind to his opponents when he was reinstated that even they could make few criticisms of him.

Of course, that isn't to say that even amongst the canonized Saints they did not have moments of losing their temper... reportedly St. Nicholas of Myra (that's right, the original Santa Claus) was so upset when he first heard Arius declare his heretical teaching that he went up and punched him in the face. Nicolas was a simple rural Bishop with a poor vocabulary as well, so after he punched Arius he was removed from the Council and briefly deposed from office. Reportedly, a number of Bishops then had a dream on the same night where they saw Jesus Christ handing Nicholas his Gospel Book back and Mary handing him his Bishop's vestments.

They decided to give St. Nick another chance, and the rest is history. ;)

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   21:28:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Orthodoxa, redleghunter, TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#37)

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

No Christian of any of the myriad of Christian sects would take exception to this. To use perhaps an inelegant phrease, the Devil is in the details as to what each of these sects deem to be pleasing to God. You claim that the differences bewtween the varies translations of Scripture is trivial. That is willful deception. Tally up those which believe in transubstantiation and the signficiance that has upon what is pleasing to God and those that don't. Next tell me which are "traditional" Christians and which are not.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   21:40:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: A Pole (#38)

In which language the New Testament was written? Latin? German/English/Swedish? Greek? Armenian?

In which language did God speak to Adam and Adam to God?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   21:42:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Orthodoxa (#40)

While Athanasius unquestionably did not give a weak defense of Orthodox doctrine, even though he was often treated cruelly and spent much of his life in exile, he reportedly was so kind to his opponents when he was reinstated that even they could make few criticisms of him.

There is little doubt that these are pretty factual accounts, not mere legend. Athanasius was a far greater figure but Lucifer had a certain passion and role in history that contrasted with Athanasius. It makes Lucifer a memorable ally and gives some insight into the views of bishops of the era, offers something of the flavor of these figures of the era.

Some of these early church figures played incredibly powerful roles in their era with repercussions for every Christian ever since, regardless of their church affiliation.

By any measure, they led great Christian lives.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-18   21:50:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: SOSO (#41)

You claim that the differences between the varies translations of Scripture is trivial. That is willful deception.

If that was addressed to me (it was a reply to my post) I never said any such thing.

Some translations are absolutely horrible, the Jehovah's Witness version comes to mind.

But, for an example as far as Orthodoxy is concerned, you do understand that Greek Orthodox aren't reading a translation, don't you?

There are a number of excellent English translations of the Bible, but of course some are better than others. You have to take into account what the translator's purpose was. Some of the English translations are deliberately simplified to help evangelize less educated people -- for that purpose they work fine, but in a debate over some nuance in Scripture they would not be as useful.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   21:51:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Orthodoxa (#44)

But, for an example as far as Orthodoxy is concerned, you do understand that Greek Orthodox aren't reading a translation, don't you?

The Greek language of today is not the Greek language of 300AD and the that of 400AD not that of 100 AD. The meaning, nuances of words and idioms in any language change over time.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   22:02:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: TooConservative (#43)

There is little doubt that these are pretty factual accounts, not mere legend. Athanasius was a far greater figure but Lucifer had a certain passion and role in history that contrasted with Athanasius. It makes Lucifer a memorable ally and gives some insight into the views of bishops of the era, offers something of the flavor of these figures of the era.

Some of these early church figures played incredibly powerful roles in their era with repercussions for every Christian ever since, regardless of their church affiliation.

By any measure, they led great Christian lives.

Indeed so, and many of the Bishops of that era still affect us in many ways today.

I mentioned Nicholas of Myra, and of course most of the modern pop-culture of Santa Claus are fun flights of fancy (I recall Santa coming to the defense of Dr. Who in a holiday special ;P) But even there, the kernel of that Christian living out his Faith still profoundly affects us today.

Because Nicholas isn't remembered for profound sermons, or his fist-fight with Arius. He's remembered because as a simple country Bishop he was known for secretly leaving gifts for poor children so that they wouldn't be sold into slavery. Well over a thousand and a half years later, his mythologized figure still inspires some people to be kind to the less fortunate for at least a short season of the year. :)

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   22:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: SOSO (#45)

The Greek language of today is not the Greek language of 300AD and the that of 400AD not that of 100 AD. The meaning, nuances of words and idioms in any language change over time.

That's true, but that does not mean that educated Greeks do not understand their own language, even when it is using some old idioms.

My point is that often we in the English-speaking world act as though no one understands the source material anymore, and that just isn't true. Educated Roman Catholics can still read the Vulgate and as mentioned educated Greeks can still read the old Greek. For that matter, there are still a few pockets of the Orthodox Church where people worship in Aramaic.

And there are TONS of educated Protestants who have learned the ancient languages as well. J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators of the Revised Standard Version, and he was a linguistic genius, as just one example.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   22:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Orthodoxa (#47)

The Greek language of today is not the Greek language of 300AD and the that of 400AD not that of 100 AD. The meaning, nuances of words and idioms in any language change over time. That's true, but that does not mean that educated Greeks do not understand their own language, even when it is using some old idioms.

In the same vein. The King James is easy to understand even though it is in old English.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-18   22:10:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Orthodoxa (#44)

You have to take into account what the translator's purpose was. Some of the English translations are deliberately simplified to help evangelize less educated people -- for that purpose they work fine, but in a debate over some nuance in Scripture they would not be as useful.

That is very condescending and insulting to the 99.99999% of people who do not have the time nor the means the few priviledged self-annointed elite have to engage in the study so that the poor, unintelligent, less educated can reveal the truth for themself. And even the few priviledged self-annointed elite can't agree among themself. The each choose to stake out their particular piece of the pie.

The Word Of God is for all men. It can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites. God relationship with men is individual, one-to-one with no human intermediaries required.

And you consider yourself a traditional Christian?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   22:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: SOSO (#49)

The Word Of God is for all men. It can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites. God relationship with men is individual, one-to-one with no human intermediaries required.

I agree with that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-18   22:13:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: All (#46)

I recall Santa coming to the defense of Dr. Who in a holiday special ;P

I couldn't resist.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   22:43:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: SOSO, A K A Stone (#49)

That is very condescending and insulting to the 99.99999% of people who do not have the time nor the means the few priviledged self-annointed elite have to engage in the study so that the poor, unintelligent, less educated can reveal the truth for themself. And even the few priviledged self-annointed elite can't agree among themself. The each choose to stake out their particular piece of the pie.

The Word Of God is for all men. It can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites. God relationship with men is individual, one-to-one with no human intermediaries required.

And you consider yourself a traditional Christian?

Your gross exaggerations really do not do much to advance your argument.

As Stone stated, really anyone in the English speaking world who takes the time to understand a good translation like the KJV has a pretty good translation to use.

You keep throwing out an "either / or" fallacy. I.E. you are acting as though either every translation has to be absolutely perfect or that they are all rubbish.

No, as in most translations, some are better than others.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to be taking a hyper-Protestant approach that goes far afield from mainstream Protestants. I.E. you are acting as though the most important thing is nuances within the Book while ignoring the fact that the purpose of the Book is Who it introduces us to.

Christians do not worship the Bible, we worship the God who is revealed in it.

God can indeed intervene and establish a relationship with someone without another intermediary, but that isn't what usually happens. Did you read the verses from Hebrews that I quoted upthread? Most of us are Christians because of those who preceded us in the faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

If you overthrow the Nicene Council, then you are saying that the very nature of Jesus changed. I worship the same Jesus as the Evangelists, Athanasius, Nicholas, and countless other Christians throughout the ages worship. If you change the fundamental definition of who Jesus is, then you are no longer worshiping the same God as all those Christians before you did.

You want to talk about elitism? THAT is elitism, the presumption that all of these Christians throughout 2,000 years of history had it wrong, but you can figure it out correctly by yourself.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   22:59:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Orthodoxa (#52)

You keep throwing out an "either / or" fallacy. I.E. you are acting as though either every translation has to be absolutely perfect or that they are all rubbish.

No, as in most translations, some are better than others.

Only the condescending, arrogant claim to be not only the best but the one and only true version. You are not really a Christian in your arrogance, presumption of superiority and most of all your judging of who is a true, traditional Christian.

"THAT is elitism, the presumption that all of these Christians throughout 2,000 years of history had it wrong, but you can figure it out correctly by yourself. "

Wow, you talk about me throwing out fallices? I place my beats on the Holy Ghost and my relationship with God that His gift of faith allows me to embrace. Too bad that offends a faux paper Christian such as yourself.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   23:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: SOSO, Orthodoxa, ALL, best comment of the new year (#49)

SOSO "The Word Of God is for all men. I(t) can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites. God relationship with men is individual, one-to-one with no human intermediaries required".

Hear! Hear! Best comment of the New Year! MHO!

Murron  posted on  2015-01-18   23:11:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Murron (#54)

Best comment of the New Year!

Don't know about that but it is what I earnestly believe.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   23:14:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: SOSO (#53)

Only the condescending, arrogant claim to be not only the best but the one and only true version. You are not really a Christian in your arrogance, presumption of superiority and most of all your judging of who is a true, traditional Christian.

I've not questioned any member in this conversations' salvation status.

I can't, only God will be the judge of that. It is He who will sit upon the throne on Judgement Day, not me or you.

And yet while you accuse me of elitism and being judgemental, you have already declared what my eternal status will be, a "faux paper Christian".

You bring judgement upon yourself, brother, with your own statements.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   23:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Orthodoxa (#56)

And yet while you accuse me of elitism and being judgemental, you have already declared what my eternal status will be, a "faux paper Christian".

We know you by your acts. Only a false Christian would presume to determine who is a traditional Christian and who is not, much less crow about it. I made no such judgments about the status of anyone's eternal life. Check the record. You are a bible thumping charlaton. Try throwing you BS huff and puff thunderbolts at little children and the less educated instead of an adult.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-18   23:27:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: SOSO (#57)

We know you by your acts. Only a false Christian would presume to determine who is a traditional Christian and who is not, much less crow about it. I made no such judgments about the status of anyone's eternal life. Check the record. You are a bible thumping charlaton. Try throwing you BS huff and puff thunderbolts at little children and the less educated instead of an adult.

Determining what is traditional is not a matter of opinion, it is just a knowledge of history.

If, for example, someone preaches a doctrine that was never taught throughout the 2,000+ years of Christian history, then that doctrine isn't traditional. They are free to do so, but me stating that it isn't traditional Christianity is not presumptious opinion but simply stating historical fact.

You are entitled to your opinions, but not to your facts.

And yes, you did make a judgement about the status of my eternal life. You said that I am a "faux paper Christian". You do know that "faux" means fake, don't you? If I'm a fake Christian, then you are saying that I am destined for hell.

And now you call me a "false Christian" and a "charlatan" as well.

I've never judged anyone in this thread as to what will happen to them in the afterlife. You have, repeatedly. And you now accuse me of being childish?

I am talking about the Orthodox Church because that is what I am and know. I thought that I made it plain that I welcome fellow Christians to explain their beliefs in one of my first posts upthread. When we have smart Catholics and Protestants in this forum, it would be rather childish of me to presume to speak for them, which is why I focus on what I know.

And unlike you, I personally expect that there will probably be many Christians from backgrounds different than mine in heaven. You, on the other hand, are professing to know right now who will be there and who will not. You have already pronounced me to be hellbound.

Thankfully, it is God, and not you who will sit upon the Throne. May He have mercy on both of us.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-18   23:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Orthodoxa (#58)

And yes, you did make a judgement about the status of my eternal life. You said that I am a "faux paper Christian". You do know that "faux" means fake, don't you? If I'm a fake Christian, then you are saying that I am destined for hell.

You don't even believe what you profess it is to be Christian, namely redemption, salvation through God's forgiveness. I never even implied that your soul was lost but just that in your present state based on your actions your are a false Christian not a real one. And you continue to act in that manner. You may yet see the light. That's not for me to judge.

"If, for example, someone preaches a doctrine that was never taught throughout the 2,000+ years of Christian history, then that doctrine isn't traditional."

Oh, so which teaching is traditional, the consecrated host is in fact the Body and Blood of Christ or not? The teaching on my particular sect of Christianity is that it is. I gather that in yours it is not. I don't condemn you for that. I don't even judge you. But I do accuse you based on your demonstrated presumptions and arrogance.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-19   0:10:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: ALL (#24) (Edited)

I know Gary must be as impatient as a kid on Christmas morning, waiting for these fragments to finally be presented to the public.

Why would I be impatient? I started laughing when I saw this post, because I just happened to be taking several courses from Dr. Craig Evans regarding this and other subjects. I already know what's there, but cannot comment. Go to this link, and look at the various courses I'm taking under Dr. Evans. Note carefully, you can watch a small clip of the video under each course, I think you'll find them very interesting.

https://www.logos.com/product/43029/mobile-ed-craig-a-evans-new-testament-backgrounds-bundle#003

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   0:26:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Orthodoxa, TooConservative (#44)

Some of the English translations are deliberately simplified to help evangelize less educated people -- for that purpose they work fine, but in a debate over some nuance in Scrip

I have to agree. Proper exegesis of verse, passage, chapter and book requires going to the original language of the text. Also taking into account the original audience as received in time.

There are some pet "doctrines" out there based on poor exegesis of the original language or lack of referring to the original language.

"Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn..." Hippolytus

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-19   0:30:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: All (#60)

The Canon.

“You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thomas mixed in with a lot of other things.

“When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined. You see, the canon is a list of authoritative books more than it is an authoritative list of books. These documents didn’t derive their authority from being selected; each one was authoritative before anyone gathered them together. The early church merely listened and sensed that these were authoritative accounts.

“For somebody now to say that the canon emerged only after councils and synods made these pronouncements would be like saying, ‘Let’s get several academies of musicians to make a pronouncement that the music of Bach and Beethoven is wonderful.’ I would say, ‘Thank you for nothing! We knew it because of sensitivity to what is good music and what is not. The same with the canon.”

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D.

Paul joins OT and NT as both Scripture Paul, in 1 Timothy 5:18 joins both Old and New Testament references, and calls them Scripture.
1 Timothy 5:18 (ESV) For the Scripture says, *“You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, *“The laborer deserves his wages.” Deuteronomy 25:4 (ESV) [4] *“You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain. Luke 10:7 (ESV) [7] And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for *the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   0:32:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: SOSO, Orthodoxa (#49)

That is very condescending and insulting to the 99.99999% of people who do not have the time nor the means the few priviledged self-annointed elite have to engage in the study so that the poor, unintelligent, less educated can reveal the truth for themself. And even the few priviledged self-annointed elite can't agree among themself. The each choose to stake out their particular piece of the pie.

Well we knuckle draggers have resources as well.

When you have hundreds even thousands of various theologians agreeing on a lexicon, it is not hard to view these things. Especially on the web these days.

Here is one such source:

Blueletterbible.org

"Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn..." Hippolytus

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-19   0:35:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: All (#62)

"The Scriptures are not a library of disjointed, independent, inspired books.
The First and Second Testaments are not two separate books bound together between a single cover. Rather, they are a unified canon. All the books of that canon contribute to the plotline of God’s covenantal relationship with humanity through Jesus. You can think of the First and Second Testaments as act 1 and act 2 of the same drama. Each book, therefore, must be understood and interpreted within the framework of the greater whole.
Jesus Christ is the glue that binds both Testaments together. As Brevard Childs says, “The completely New of the gospel is formulated in terms of the Old. Herein lies the deep mystery surrounding the two testaments. Separate and yet undivided, two voices yet the sound is similar, an Old Word pointing to the New, yet the New is only known in the Old.”
That said, it’s a profound mistake to detach Scripture—both First and Second Testaments—from Christ. The Bible has no real meaning unless it is grounded in Christ. The beauty of Scripture for followers of Jesus is to reveal Christ."

From: Jesus, A Theography

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   0:41:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: ALL (#63)

Knuckle dragger here.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   1:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: GarySpFC (#64)

That said, it’s a profound mistake to detach Scripture—both First and Second Testaments—from Christ. The Bible has no real meaning unless it is grounded in Christ. The beauty of Scripture for followers of Jesus is to reveal Christ."

Amen.

"Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn..." Hippolytus

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-19   2:03:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: SOSO (#42)

"In which language the New Testament was written?"

In which language did God speak to Adam and Adam to God?

The Book of Genesis is not a part of New Testament.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   2:58:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: SOSO (#45)

The Greek language of today is not the Greek language of 300AD and the that of 400AD not that of 100 AD. The meaning, nuances of words and idioms in any language change over time.

English of today is different from the King James English or Shakespeare. Yet it does not make Shakespeare a Greek writer.

Languages changes, does it mean that Mark Twain books stopped to be English?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:19:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: SOSO (#49)

Some of the English translations are deliberately simplified to help evangelize less educated people -- for that purpose they work fine, but in a debate over some nuance in Scripture they would not be as useful.

That is very condescending and insulting to the 99.99999% of people who do not have the time nor the means the few priviledged self-annointed elite have to engage in the study so that the poor, unintelligent, less educated can reveal the truth for themself. ... The Word Of God is for all men. It can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites.

Many are illiterate and not capable to learn to read. Blame God for that - as He did not create everyone equal.

He also established an order and hierarchy. Some are leaders, teachers and shepherds, others are followers. Blame God for that and vent your anger if you wish.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:24:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Vicomte13, Orthodoxa (#35)

The Church in the west and in Rome was for a long time a Greek language church. As shown by the Greek martyrs of Lyon

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=1570&C=1457

Also, you can see the earliest catacombs of the Roman popes are in Greek:

http://www.catacombe.roma.it/en/percorsi_criptapapi.php

It is the most important and venerated crypt of the cemetery, called "the little Vatican" as it was the official burial place of nine popes and, probably, of eight dignitaries of Rome's 3rd century Church. In the walls you can still see the original inscriptions, in Greek, of five popes. On four tombstones, near the name of the pope, there is the title of "bishop", since the Pope was regarded as the head of the Church of Rome, and on two of them there is the Greek abbreviation of MPT for "Martyr". Here are the names of the five popes: Pontianus, Antherus, Fabian, Lucius and Eutichian. In the front wall was laid to rest Pope Sixtus II, a victim of emperor Valerian's persecution.

I am not saying all these Popes were ethnic Greeks, only that they used Greek as the language of the faith.

These seems to end when Constantine goes east. It looks like with the Roman empire moving its capital east the importation or emigration of Greeks to the west ended. The Roman empire was always bi-lingual but when Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, the west became almost solely Latin.

And then when the Barbarian Franks and Germans invaded they also changed the nature of the Western Church.

Pericles  posted on  2015-01-19   3:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#50)

God relationship with men is individual, one-to-one with no human intermediaries required.

No, those who are saved are together and united. Those who perish are isolated and alone.

Jesus Christ prayed that His followers are one as He and The Father are one.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: SOSO (#53)

Only the condescending, arrogant claim to be not only the best but the one and only true version. You are not really a Christian in your arrogance, presumption of superiority and most of all your judging of who is a true, traditional Christian.

Sorry, but the Greek version of the New Testament is superior to all others. You can rage and accuse, huff and puff and it will remain the plain truth.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:37:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: SOSO, Orthodoxa (#57)

Only a false Christian would presume to determine who is a traditional Christian and who is not, much less crow about it.

You got it wrong. A true Christian should not and cannot judge others (Christian or non Christian) ie how others are seen by God.

But certainly a Christian can judge and evaluate who is a traditional Christian.

More, even an informed smart non-Christian can evaluate this. For example an atheist or Buddhist can see that Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons are not traditional Christian.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:43:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: SOSO, Orthodoxa (#59)

Oh, so which teaching is traditional, the consecrated host is in fact the Body and Blood of Christ or not?

This teaching that Christ Himself spoke:

"The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:49:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Orthodoxa, SOSO (#47) (Edited)

he Greek language of today is not the Greek language of 300AD and the that of 400AD not that of 100 AD. The meaning, nuances of words and idioms in any language change over time. That's true, but that does not mean that educated Greeks do not understand their own language, even when it is using some old idioms.

My point is that often we in the English-speaking world act as though no one understands the source material anymore, and that just isn't true. Educated Roman Catholics can still read the Vulgate and as mentioned educated Greeks can still read the old Greek. For that matter, there are still a few pockets of the Orthodox Church where people worship in Aramaic.

And there are TONS of educated Protestants who have learned the ancient languages as well. J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators of the Revised Standard Version, and he was a linguistic genius, as just one example.

Protestants mention the incorrect statement that Greek of today is different from the Greek of the NT as some sort of justification for their sect somehow being on par with the modern Orthodox or to trivialize the Orthodox.

All languages change over time - from Homer to Pericles to St Luke's Greek but the Greek of the New Testament or the formal educated Greek of the Roman era is very much intelligible to modern Greek speakers.

SOSO are you claiming that Shakespeare's English is another language than modern English? The difference in NT Greek vs Modern Greek is less than the difference of English between Shakespeare and modern English and much less than the English of Beowulf.

If you are a modern Greek speaker you can time travel back in time to the Roman era and can be understood fine. Athenian Attic Greek was very refined and might cause problems in understanding but that is because it was a refined language of scholars, etc rather than the Greek of the market as Koine was.

And with some minor additions or subtractions the alphabet has been the same since Hesiod and the written works of Homer.

For example, take the word “barbarian” itself (which is of Greek origin): in Classic Attic Greek it would be pronounced [barbaros] with the B sound. In Modern Greek, it is [varvaros] with the V sound. In general, the second letter of the alphabet, beta, was pronounced as in Plato’s time, but was changed to [v] by the time the Gospels were written. Ironically, in the Latin west the Greek B sound was maintained for the word barbarian while in the Greek world that sound turned into a V sound.

That does not make ancient Greek a different language than modern Greek.

Pericles  posted on  2015-01-19   3:53:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pericles (#70)

It looks like with the Roman empire moving its capital east the importation or emigration of Greeks to the west ended. The Roman empire was always bi-lingual but when Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, the west became almost solely Latin.

And then when the Barbarian Franks and Germans invaded they also changed the nature of the Western Church.

Interesting and good point. Did you come to it on your own, or is there some book you can recommend?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-19   3:54:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: A Pole (#76) (Edited)

And then when the Barbarian Franks and Germans invaded they also changed the nature of the Western Church.

Interesting and good point. Did you come to it on your own, or is there some book you can recommend?

See this book The Latin church in the middle ages By Joseph Turmel, André Lagarde: https://books.google.com/books? id=PYwYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=the+frankish+latin+church&source=bl&ot s=VdOVaheS1K&sig=gc_gEHknk2s4UBlCVKgsZubnqE8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7Mi8VLyCD8ScNsiZg dAD&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=the%20frankish%20latin%20church&f=false

If I recall the decline of true Latins as an ethnic race happened after Justinian's war of reconquest of Italy from the German tribes there. That war was so devastating that the Latins native population was almost wiped out. Justinian was of course not Greek nor was Constantine. Justinian and the Latins of the east - modern day Romanians and Vlachs in the Balkans

SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line

wanted to liberate their ethnic kin in Italy from the Germans who were ruling them in an abusive way. But after Justinian's victory the cities were mostly destroyed and Italy would never be able to hold its own against invasion hence the Papacy asked to be protected by the Franks - the Eastern Romans were now too weak to be a presence in Italy.

After that these Franks and Germans, who spoke a Germanized Latin became ethnically dominant. The Byzantine word for westerner was "Frank". We get the term "Lingua Franca" from the fact the Francs were dominant language and it was considered Latina and Frankish at the same time. Even in China the Byzantine term for westerner was from the Byzantine designation of Frank.

I should also add that for a long time, despite the loss of Greek in the Latin west the Greek and "Frankish" Latin churches were as one for like 500 years.

I think the western saying of "It's Greek to me" meaning it cant be understood or is too hard to understand is ironic seeing as a Latin aristocrat learned Greek probably before he could speak Latin (due to being raised by Greek nurse maids slaves and Greek teachers).

The "It's Greek to me" kind of encapsulates the Dark Ages the Latin west fell into where the language they used to speak to gain access to knowledge (Greek) became alien and unintelligible to them until the Renaissance.

Pericles  posted on  2015-01-19   4:08:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Murron, Orthodoxa, Murron, A Pole (#54) (Edited)

OSO "The Word Of God is for all men. I(t) can't believe that God did not intend it to be understandable by all men without having to rely upon priviledged self- annointed elites.

Of course. That is why Jesus chose Greek as the language of his Gospel. Which at the time of the Roman empire was understandable from Hadrian's Wall in Britain to India and from the Rhine to Ethiopia and will endure in the New Testament till Jesus the Christ (Greek word) returns. This is not being arrogant for Greek. It points out that Greek was the common tongue of the world and thus was the language that the world would be based on. The amount of Greek in the English language is astounding given the fact that English was not even a language until a 1,000 years after the NT was written.

Christ said he was the Alpha and Omega. I don't recall English translations changing that to the Ahe and the Zee.

Pericles  posted on  2015-01-19   4:16:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Orthodoxa (#47)

For that matter, there are still a few pockets of the Orthodox Church where people worship in Aramaic.

America has so destabilized the region and created such hatred for Crusaders (Christian nations) that there will soon be no Aramaic speakers left at all.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-19   6:38:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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