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Title: Mummy Mask May Reveal Oldest Known Gospel
Source: livescience.com
URL Source: http://www.livescience.com/49489-oldest-known-gospel-mummy-mask.html
Published: Jan 18, 2015
Author: Owen Jarus
Post Date: 2015-01-18 18:39:21 by Fibr Dog
Keywords: None
Views: 69863
Comments: 202

A text that may be the oldest copy of a gospel known to exist — a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that was written during the first century, before the year 90 — is set to be published.

At present, the oldest surviving copies of the gospel texts date to the second century (the years 101 to 200).

This first-century gospel fragment was written on a sheet of papyrus that was later reused to create a mask that was worn by a mummy. Although the mummies of Egyptian pharaohs wore masks made of gold, ordinary people had to settle for masks made out of papyrus (or linen), paint and glue. Given how expensive papyrus was, people often had to reuse sheets that already had writing on them.

In recent years scientists have developed a technique that allows the glue of mummy masks to be undone without harming the ink on the paper. The text on the sheets can then be read.

The first-century gospel is one of hundreds of new texts that a team of about three-dozen scientists and scholars is working to uncover, and analyze, by using this technique of ungluing the masks, said Craig Evans, a professor of New Testament studies at Acadia Divinity College in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.

"We're recovering ancient documents from the first, second and third centuries. Not just Christian documents, not just biblical documents, but classical Greek texts, business papers, various mundane papers, personal letters," Evans told Live Science. The documents include philosophical texts and copies of stories by the Greek poet Homer.

The business and personal letters sometimes have dates on them, he said. When the glue was dissolved, the researchers dated the first-century gospel in part by analyzing the other documents found in the same mask.

One drawback to the process is that the mummy mask is destroyed, and so scholars in the field are debating whether that particular method should be used to reveal the texts they contain.

But Evans emphasized that the masks that are being destroyed to reveal the new texts are not high quality ones that would be displayed in a museum. Some are not masks at all but are simply pieces of cartonnage.

Evans told Live Science, "We're not talking about the destruction of any museum-quality piece."

The technique is bringing many new texts to light, Evans noted. "From a single mask, it's not strange to recover a couple dozen or even more" new texts, he told Live Science. "We're going to end up with many hundreds of papyri when the work is done, if not thousands."

Debate

Scholars who work on the project have to sign a nondisclosure agreement that limits what they can say publicly. There are several reasons for this agreement. One is that some of the owners of these masks simply do not want to be made known, Evans said. "The scholars who are working on this project have to honor the request of the museums, universities, private owners, so forth."

The owners of the mummy masks retain ownership of the papyrus sheets after the glue on them is dissolved.

Evans said that the only reason he can talk about the first-century gospel before it is published is because a member of the team leaked some of the information in 2012. Evans was careful to say that he is not telling Live Science anything about the first-century gospel that hasn't already been leaked online.

Soon after the 2012 leak, speculation surrounded the methods that the scholars used to figure out the gospel's age.

Evans says that the text was dated through a combination of carbon-14 dating, studying the handwriting on the fragment and studying the other documents found along with the gospel. These considerations led the researchers to conclude that the fragment was written before the year 90. With the nondisclosure agreement in place, Evans said that he can't say much more about the text's date until the papyrus is published.

Destruction of mummy masks

The process that is used to obtain the papyri, which involves the destruction of the mummy masks, has also generated debate. For instance, archaeologist Paul Barford, who writes about collecting and heritage issues, has written a scathing blog post criticizing the work on the gospel.

Roberta Mazza, a lecturer in Classics and Ancient History at the University of Manchester, has blogged her concerns about the text as has Brice Jones, a doctoral candidate in religion at Concordia University.

When the texts are published the debate is likely to move beyond the blogosphere and into mainstream media and scholarly journals.

Biblical clues

Although the first-century gospel fragment is small, the text will provide clues as to whether the Gospel of Mark changed over time, Evans said.

His own research is focused on analyzing the mummy mask texts, to try to determine how long people held onto them before disposing or reusing them. This can yield valuable information about how biblical texts were copied over time.

"We have every reason to believe that the original writings and their earliest copies would have been in circulation for a hundred years in most cases — in some cases much longer, even 200 years," he said.

This means that "a scribe making a copy of a script in the third century could actually have at his disposal (the) first-century originals, or first-century copies, as well as second-century copies."

Set to publish

Evans said that the research team will publish the first volume of texts obtained through the mummy masks and cartonnage later this year. It will include the gospel fragment that the researchers believe dates back to the first century.

The team originally hoped the volume would be published in 2013 or 2014, but the date had to be moved back to 2015. Evans said he is uncertain why the book's publication was delayed, but the team has made use of the extra time to conduct further studies into the first-century gospel. "The benefit of the delay is that when it comes out, there will be additional information about it and other related texts."

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#162. To: SOSO (#94)

Please offer your defintion.

"Baptism" is the English word for "baptismos", which is the Greek word for "mikvah".

Mikvah is the Jewish practice of washing something in water to make it "clean" for ritual/spiritual purposes.

In synagogues, there are mikvah baths, into which Jews who need to be purified go. Women, for example, according to the Torah must be purified of their uncleanness once their menstrual flow ceases. To complete their purification, they must be baptized, which is to say, they must take a mikvah: go into the water and come out. This removes their spiritual impurity.

Similarly, hands must be washed before meals, and utensils, etc.

In simplest terms, a mikvah is a washing, a spiritual washing.

The interesting innovation of Christianity is that it was required only once, for once one were washed, one were cleansed of sin that existed before that, and then one faced God anew.

So, that's what baptism is: it's a spiritual washing. Why only once? Why it's necessary? Why anything...even HOW it is to be done - Scripture doesn't say.

Tradition has supplied an answer. Well, actually tradition has described a lot of different answers, and because it's believed to be NECESSARY, this becomes one of the solid points of combat (to wit: You MUST do it our way, or you have not completed a requirement, and therefore you shall BURN!)

To them. To me, it's a mikvah. No doubt there's some meaning to it, and God knows what that is, and he hasn't revealed it very clearly in Scripture. Lots of Churches have told me it's clear. I read the texts they read, and I don't see what they say in there. So I leave it with a shoulder shrug.

I was baptized as a baby. So, I've been baptized. Block checked. What matters is what Jesus said. He said a handful of lines about baptism. He said pages and pages about deeds. I listen to Jesus. He emphasized deeds, and barely mentioned baptism. Therefore, that is precisely the relative importance of these two things. Because Jesus said so, and he's God, and all of the men yammering about these things share one thing in common: they're not.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-19   23:03:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: GarySpFC (#160)
(Edited)

If that is true, then it follows that after you eat some of His flesh and drink His blood, then He is slightly less fully man.

It does? I don't see how that follows at all, frankly. God made human flesh out of powder. God made the world out of nothing. God makes as much flesh and blood as he needs to make, whenever he pleases. And it pleases him to do it in the eucharist, because he said that it's his flesh and blood, and demonstrated at Lanciano circa 600 AD (and elsewhere) that he meant it literally by leaving us the heart tissue and blood to prove it.

For me, there's no way to get around transubstantiation because the Lanciano miracle is physical proof that its true, and all that can be arrayed against it is words of opinion, and such words are wind. Wind versus actual blood and tissue.

For me it's a slam dunk, unless the scientists are lying. They could be. The forensics of the Lanciano miracle are not nearly as well-attested as the Shroud of Turin studies.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-19   23:07:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: SOSO (#161)

What? Jesus is not a renewable resource? Wow, I missed that memo as well.

scripture?

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   23:08:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

Your slam dunks fall a little short.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   23:12:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: GarySpFC (#164)

scripture?

I know that I am going to regret this but where?

Is there still a human nature of Christ?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-19   23:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: SOSO (#166)

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,”a dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The Holy Bible: New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), Re 1:12–18.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-19   23:40:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: SOSO (#157)

One might get the beach front property the other a cold water flat.

I'll be lucky to be sweeping the streets. A throne and a crown are for the saints. I'd like to be a saint...but not enough to actually be one.

Therefore, I am a very forgiving man. I don't hold grudges. I see the other side. I'm kind and patient, and when I'm impatient, I'm kinder still in the aftermath to undo my impatience.

Jesus said that to be forgiven, you have to forgive, and to the extent that you forgive, you will be forgiven. I take him literally at his word, and I am literally RELYING on that very heavily for the disposition of my final judgment.

It would be nice to avoid Gehenna before the resurrection and judgment too, which makes me ever more forgiving.

I do unto others as I hope God will do unto me. Because there is no way that I am going to go for the rest of my life without succumbing to certain sins. I know it. I don't like it, but I'm honest and a realist.

I have talked to God, seen the Dove, seen a gate of City, been in the black abyss, felt the heat of Gehenna beneath my feet, seen a demon, been embraced by Christ and had a broken neck healed miraculously. God is, I know him, and he knows me. Satan is too, I know him too. So, these things are all real.

And standing on this great field of action is me, a spirit enmeshed in flesh. I have my good qualities (the Calivinsts are wrong about total depravity), and I have my bad qualities that are mine and not simply demonic parasites. And then I've got those too.

I want to be on the good side, the winning side, the right side. I know who the captain is: Christ, and I've read his written orders - that's what I've got. I've read lots of other people's impressions of those orders too. But I find my own reading of those orders to be clearer, cleaner, and more directly what they actually SAY in their original languages. Therefore, I am going to follow what Christ said as he said it, directly. I know that the men who read the orders differently mean well, and I forgive everybody (even when they fulminate at me that I am in danger - or worse - where I don't agree with their read). That doesn't make me agree with their read, or feel any worry. The man I'm worried about pleasing is Jesus, and I know I'm really a pretty poor excuse for a soldier and servant. I'm brave and I'm honest, but I really like the human form, and most especially the naked female form, and that is never going to change; nor am I going to be able to completely resist going right down that path, if only mentally, for precisely the reason that the drunk returns to his wine, the addict returns to his crack, the dog returns to his vomit and the sow returns to her mire.

Maybe when I am old and my testosterone bottoms out at zero, I'll be immune to such temptations because the dead bird does not leave the nest. But then again, maybe not.

In any case, it is what it is. I don't go committing BINARY adultery, which I do distinguish from the "adultery of the heart" of which Jesus spoke. I don't know whether he put the two as exactly equal (if so, why did he add the "of the heart" business). I know that even the latter is bad, according to Jesus. So, there is a recurring, insistent infection of sin in me that isn't going to go away, and that gets a boost from demons (one of them once was VISIBLE) that isn't going to go away anytime soon. I know that 40 continuous day of fasting on water alone does chase those demons out. I also know that a few days more than that will also chase out my biological pilot light, and once fed, the demons return.

Rather than agonize about it, I recognize that it is what it is, and I start looking to what the Captain has to say. Well, he says "Repent!", which I do, and "Stop sinning", which I do sometimes, but return to the vomit.

So I look at what else he said, and I see that he says that great sins are forgiven to those who forgive, but that those who are unforgiving pay those sins in Gehenna, and stay there in Gehenna until the last penny is paid.

Gehenna sounds Purgatorial to me. I think Purgatory is right there in the Scripture, right out of Jesus' mouth, and that Gehenna/Purgatory is quite different from the Lake of Fire.

Gehenna is for a time - UNTIL the debt is paid - which may be until the end of time, but the Lake of Fire is after judgment, and if you're thrown in there, that's the second death, and for good. Two different places, with two different purposes. One is debtor's prison for the debt of sin. The other is a place of execution, with no hope of rising again: you're disgusting, and you're DONE for good, because you're not going to soil the carpets in the City of God.

Because Jesus is the only Judge, nobody enters the City except by passing his judgment. That's what he means when he says that none comes to the Father except through him. He is indeed the gate - he judges.

But he judges by DEEDS, not my beliefs in the head. He said that. And that - and Gehenna - are why there is hope for non-Christians who are virtuous pagans, who do the proper deeds (because of their own traditions) and who are forgiving.

Jesus defined "belief" in him as doing what he said. He asked point blank: "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't do what I say." That's the whole answer to those who say that belief that Jesus is the Son of God is the key to entering the City. Jesus said no, it's deeds that are the key.

Therefore, deeds are the key, and the arguments to the contrary are wrong. I don't think Paul said otherwise, if he's read write, but if Paul DID say otherwise, then Paul was wrong too, because Jesus was God, and Jesus trumps all else.

And the REASON I believe all this? Because of direct personal miracles, and direct revelations, and the corroboration of the truth of Christianity by physical miracles (Shroud, Lanciano, Incorruptibles, Lourdes Healing), the complete LACK of any comparable miracles for any other faith). So, it's true that Jesus was divine, and I saw him, the Dove, the City, etc. But he didn't tell me anything specific. The little bits of conversation I had with God were about PHYSICS, and had nothing to do with standard religion. So I'm left with no greater knowledge than anybody else about what God WANTS - I just know for sure that God IS.

I'm left, then, with a Jesus who is, but who is content free...and the only place that I can see what Jesus said is the Scriptures. Therefore, the Gospels and Revelation, where he speaks (and the first couple of chapters of Acts), are THE Scriptures that count, and everything else is background material or human reaction to that.

Of course I read Scripture so that it all corroborates Jesus, and where there is tension, I diminish or disregard the Scripture that contradicts Jesus. Then I work hard to see if I can make the contradictions go away. I find with Paul that I can, but it's a lot of work. I find that most of my disagreements with other Christians is because Christians love what Paul said far more than they love what Jesus said.

I obviously cannot follow anybody there. PAUL never embraced me or dove into my face or grabbed my arm. Jesus and the Dove and God did those things. Paul and I both serve them. I love Paul, and I don't think that he thinks differently than me, really. But I do think that millions of Christians really misread Paul and set him in opposition to Jesus, and given that tendency that I see, I never quote Paul as authority for anything. I always quote Jesus directly, or Elohiym or YHWH. All authority that I ever cite are words spoken directly by God in Scripture, never words spoken ABOUT God by men, be they prophets or apostles. This is not because I don't treasure them, but rather, because I find Christians to be contentious and assertive of authority, but it's really hard for any Christian to argue with GOD. And Jesus himself said so many dozens of time 'deeds, Deeds, DEEDS' that it's perfectly clear what HE expects, anyway.

That ended up being a tour-de-force answer, but why not? There are so many open questions on so many threads, I figured I'd just answer them all at once, magisterially, for me, and give my actual judgments on the matter, and the reasons WHY I believe what I believe (and why I believe at all).

Having done that, I can recede into the background, because what else is there to say? I'm not suggesting that everybody fall in line behind me, first of all because I know they're not going to, and secondly because I never would have myself without divine revelation. That's why I emphasize the physical miracles so very much: because they CAN prove the divinity of Christ and existence of God to anybody who will really look.

I've become repetitive. Time to cut this off. Good night!

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-19   23:46:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: Vicomte13 (#168)

Maybe when I am old and my testosterone bottoms out at zero, I'll be immune to such temptations because the dead bird does not leave the nest. But then again, maybe not.

I am old and the fire still is lit. Fortunately there aren't many opportunities to act on it outside of the accepted boundaries. Dear God, please make Jimmy Carter be wrong!!!!!!!!!!

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-19   23:54:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: GarySpFC (#167)

I knew I would be sorry. What the heck does this have to do with the consumption of the Eucarhist forms with the diminshment of Christ's human side?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-19   23:57:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: GarySpFC (#160)

Another question I have is:

Were the disciples literally eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ as He stood in front of them during the Last Supper (during the Passover seder); which was before His crucifixion?

Then, after the resurrection were Christians literally eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the resurrected and glorified Christ?

"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-20   0:35:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: SOSO (#109)

"For example an atheist or Buddhist can see that Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons are not traditional Christian."

What would they say about Caholics, the mryiad of individual Protest-ant sects, the various Orthodx sects?

They usually say that Catholics and Orthodox are the main stream Christians, while numerous Protestant sects that were founded after Luther and Calvin are marginal Christians.

They treat the first seriously the second with some disdain. Mormons or JW they see as batty and not worthy of attention.

Let me use an analogy, when you want to learn about Hinduism, where do you start? With the Indian history written by the most renown Hindu scholars, with the main-stream Vedanta schools, befriending main-stream Hindu, visiting India? Or would you start with a random American street follower of some West based guru, like "don't worry be happy" guy?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   0:42:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: SOSO (#147)

a simple minded person can answer yes or no. Why all the obfuscation?

You tone is not reverent enough. You got sufficient answers, so we can move on.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   1:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Vicomte13 (#155)

For a Catholic to stride up to the altar and take communion in an Orthodox church is sacramentally licit - from a CATHOLIC perspective: that is the eucharist, but it will wound the other people present by inflaming passions, by transgressing boundaries (it may very well not be licit in the ORTHODOX perspective, and it's THEIR Church, for Heaven's sake)

Interesting and serious question. I put some thought into it over the years.

First while for the Latin Church the key notion is what is licit, valid, legal, legitimate, approved for the East it is what has power, efficacy, charisma, grace.

Using a medical analogy - a Latin will ask "is a given bottle of pills legal? Is it expired/out of date? For the Orthodox it is "will it work? will it help or cause harm?", "is it active?". ("valid" medicine might be useless, out of date medicine might be just fine)

So if a Catholic sneaks in and receives Orthodox Communion, this is my understanding what takes place. If he/she did in the irreverent spirit, I would be appalled and worried not so much at the disrespect, but at the thought of a spiritual toxicity that can results from the wrong use of heavenly medicine.

If a Catholic does it naively with reverence and fear the merciful God is the judge and physician. But if a Catholic is open to knowledge and instruction he has to know that by joining the Orthodox communion, he becomes de facto Orthodox and he is not allowed to go back to Roman Catholicism. He must ask for chrismation/confirmation, go through the steps recommended by the Orthodox priest or bishop to formalize and complete his belonging. Welcome to the fold, brother, do not look back :)

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   1:55:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: redleghunter (#156)

Thanks for the research. Did not know the Orthodox were Johnny come lately to the actual doctrine of transubstantiation. 17th century. Even with all the patristic writings where it could go either way. That's quite a leap for an ancient Church.

As I see it, Orthodox neither came to the doctrine of the transubstantiation, nor rejected it. They see it rather as unnecessary and undue. Why?

Because it brings the post-Aristitelian scholastic terms of substance, accidents, species without compelling dogmatic necessity. For the Sacrament it is sufficient to believe the words of Christ that Sacrament is true, real and necessary.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   2:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: GarySpFC (#160)

If that is true, then it follows that after you eat some of His flesh and drink His blood, then He is slightly less fully man.

The Fount of Immortality does not get diminished, the more drink the more is there.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   2:18:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: Vicomte13 (#162)

Similarly, hands must be washed before meals, and utensils, etc.

In simplest terms, a mikvah is a washing, a spiritual washing.

Do you wash your hands by sprinkling? Do you bath by sprinkling?

Just curious about Frankish/Latin hygiene habits. :)

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-20   2:21:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: A Pole (#176)

The Fount of Immortality does not get diminished, the more drink the more is there.

That is nothing more than speculation.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-20   2:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: redleghunter (#87)

Thanx

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-01-20   7:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: A Pole (#174)

First while for the Latin Church the key notion is what is licit, valid, legal, legitimate, approved for the East it is what has power, efficacy, charisma, grace.

Using a medical analogy - a Latin will ask "is a given bottle of pills legal? Is it expired/out of date? For the Orthodox it is "will it work? will it help or cause harm?", "is it active?". ("valid" medicine might be useless, out of date medicine might be just fine)

So if a Catholic sneaks in and receives Orthodox Communion, this is my understanding what takes place. If he/she did in the irreverent spirit, I would be appalled and worried not so much at the disrespect, but at the thought of a spiritual toxicity that can results from the wrong use of heavenly medicine.

Thank you for the comments and thoughts.

I will reply the way I see it.

I can't speak for the "Latin Church". And even though I am (partly) a Frank (not figuratively as a "Westerner", but literally, as a person of French origin whose people partly came out of Eastern France - a LITERAL Frankish French, besisdes also being a Basque and a Celt and a Saami and a Dane, from other branches of my family), I won't speak as a "Frank". I'll speak as me.

The Latin Church does indeed seem to be very concerned by what is licit, valid, legal, legitimate and approved. And the Eastern Orthodox do seem to be concerned by what has power, efficacy, charisma and grace.

I am concerned by all of those things. Let me give you a very simple example: I grew up around Jews, a lot of Jews. Half of the kids in my school were Jewish, and the only friends that I keep contact with from that era are Jewish. I live near New York City, where there are huge numbers of Jews. I've been to more bar and bas mitvahs than I can remember, and brises, and dinners. But I've never been to a Passover seder. I've been invited, but I always demur.

It is not from prejudice. I would like to attend, but I don't want to attend enough to go get myself circumcised. For, you see, I read the Torah too, and I see that strangers who sojourn with Jews, who want to eat the Passover, may do so, IF they are first circumcised. That is what YHWH said in the Torah.

Now, my Jewish friends say this is ridiculous as a reason to not come eat the Passover seder. They say that nobody, absolutely nobody, cares about that, and nobody would dream of asking, and that it's just weird that I even care about that, because it's not a rule of Judaism. And besides, we're not in Israel.

(And I think to myself - and further, the Temple's down so the ritual doesn't have sacramental meaning either.)

I hear all the logic, and it all makes sense. But then I hear YHWH saying very clearly: strangers who eat the Passover with you must be circumcised. So, perhaps the Jews don't care about the rule, and perhaps I think the whole body of rules has expired, but I am still not going to break an obvious rule given by God in order to eat a dinner. Because maybe God DOES care about his laws after all. He expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden for eating a piece of fruit, and killed them too. A Passover seder is a commemorative dinner that was ordained by God for a purpose. He put rules on it. I don't believe that men can change those rules, and I can't eat the meal according to the rules that God gave. So I won't. It's just as simple as that.

God speaks to different people in different ways. He spoke to the people of the East they way they need to be spoken too, and he spoke to the Franks the way we need to be spoken too. French people are not Greeks or vice versa, and neither would be happy or completely satisfied with the solutions of the other. That's just true. My mind is, without Christianity, logical, mathematical and somewhat severe, like Descartes or Paschal or any of the other mathematicians or scientists, or theologians, who have emerged from my race.

I do agree with the Greeks that all of the things Greeks care about matter, because they DO, to me anyway. But the things Franks care about matter also, every bit as much, to Franks anyway. It's not a pose. Greece and Rome came out of the Mediterranean Sea, but the Franks and Celts came out of the Northern Forests. We look at the world a little differently, and perhaps because the cold North is a harsher world, we are more in tune with the physical, logical, and rulebound aspect of it. It's easier to die in the North than the South, though Southerners don't live as long historically because of disease.

These things both matter. I'm just a small person in a big world, and I recognize that there are boundaries that were not established by caprice. I recognize that what the Orthodox are doing is just as sacramental as what the Celts and Franks are doing, but I recognize that it is different, and across a border, and I respect borders, because they are necessary for keeping the peace.

And perhaps Franks do know a bit more about how precious keeping the peace is, because we have smashed it to pieces so many times in our martial ardor. That's the other thing Franks have always been better than Greeks or Latins, or Germans or Celts at: war. That's why the Muslims didn't win, which is good. It's also why Constantinople was sacked, which is bad.

I think that things have settled out in peace at borders that make sense, and that the future requires diplomacy, not force. And I don't see breaking the rules in an exercise of individual liberty as helping anybody. It doesn't help Christian civilization for the reasons a Frank cares about (and those things matter, because people are hotheaded and they fight...at least Western people do). And it doesn't help the individuals for the reasons a Greek like you cares about either. And I myself, personally, think that BOTH concerns are licit, valid, and true - and that disregarding does not improve charity or grace.

The Orthodox are fully my brethren, as far as I am concerned. And I don't feel estranged from them at all. But our Churches are estranged, and that still has to be worked out before it would be right for me to walk into an Orthodox Church and take communion, for reasons similar to the reason I demur at eating Passover Seders. It's just not right, not yet anyway, and I know it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-20   7:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: A Pole (#172)

Let me use an analogy, when you want to learn about Hinduism, where do you start?

At the best Hindu restaurant that I could find.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-20   13:13:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Vicomte13, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#168)

Finally found what I was looking for. I think a bit ago we were discussing the difference between a backsliding Christian and an outright apostasy. Then I remembered something Gary posted some time back that "how" people die tells us a lot. Here's one example:

An awful death

William Pope was at one time a member of the Methodist Church and seemingly a saved and happy man. His wife, a devoted Christian, died triumphantly. After her death, however, his zeal for religion declined, and by associating with backslidden hypocrites he apostatised and walked the path of spiritual ruin. His companions even professed to believe in the redemption of devils. William admired them, visited pubs with them and in time became a complete drunkard. He finally became a disciple of Thomas Paine and associated with a number of deistical people. They would assemble together on Sundays to confirm each other in their infidelity and often amused themselves by throwing the Word of God on the floor, kicking it around the room and treading it under their feet.

One day William took seriously ill with tuberculosis. Mr. Rhodes visited him, exhorted him to repentance and confidence in the Almighty Saviour, and also prayed with him before leaving. In the evening, William again sent for Mr. Rhodes. He found William in the utmost distress, overwhelmed with bitter anguish and despair. He endeavoured to encourage him by mentioning several cases in which God had saved the greatest of sinners, but he answered, “No case of any that has been mentioned is comparable to mine. I have no contrition; I cannot repent. God will damn me! I know the day of grace is lost.”

Mr. Rhodes asked him if he had ever really known anything of the mercy and love of God. “O yes,” he replied, “many years ago I truly repented and sought the Lord and found peace and happiness. But I have turned my back on Him, scoffed at Him and now I am damned forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone, never more to return! I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened. I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God.” He then cried out, “Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within me! Oh, eternity! eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion – and justly so!”

William often and loudly repeated the reasons for his impending doom: “I have crucified the Son of God afresh, and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing! Oh, that wicked and horrible deed of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which I know I have committed.” He was often heard to exclaim, “I want nothing but hell! Come, o devil, and take me!” At another time he said, “Oh, what a terrible thing it is! Once I could, and would not; now I want and cannot!” He declared that he was best satisfied when cursing. He passed away – without God.

More here:

http://www.truegospel.co/articles/english/spiritual-devotion/257- death-bed- experiences

"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   1:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: SOSO (#181)

"Let me use an analogy, when you want to learn about Hinduism, where do you start?"

At the best Hindu restaurant that I could find.

So at what restaurant one would start learning about Fundamentalist Protestants?

Chick-fil-A?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-21   3:48:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: A Pole (#183)

Thank you. Evangelicals turn the other cheek.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-21   6:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: SOSO (#166)

Is there still a human nature of Christ?

Yes. It is in dogmatic definitions by the Ecumenical Councils (in the Creed)

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-21   7:07:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: redleghunter (#87) (Edited)

Trying to discredit the Bible and what it stands for by saying Jesus didn't exist as a historical figure only as a "Story or myth". I would say kooks pretty much describes them.

Makes you wonder how far the skeptics will go to push forward their "side of the story"?

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-01-21   7:15:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: SOSO (#170)

Your question asked if there was still a human nature in Christ. It did not refer to the Euchrist.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-21   7:45:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: redleghunter (#182)

"how" people die tells us a lot.

I wouldn't want to make that argument.

According to tradition, all of the Apostles except John died bad deaths (and John was tortured by lived), many of them quite gruesome.

(The Scriptures only tell us how James died.)

Joan of Arc was burnt alive, and many of the missionaries to foreign lands were slowly tortured over many hours before they finally expired.

The chaplain at Ground Zero on the morning of the attack was hit by falling debris and died.

Many of the best people died the most horrendous deaths at the hands of Nazis and Fascists and Communists.

During the Mexican Revolution, the most violent of revolutionaries tortured captive Christians most hideously.

No, I don't think I would make the argument that the way a man dies tells us too much. In fact, the fact of being faithful seems to provoke other men to greater evil, converting the bullet through the head into hours of harrowing burnings and blindings and castrations and other things, all to express hatred aroused by Christianity.

Christ didn't get off easy, and neither do Christians.

Pope John Paul II died a slow, miserable, public death curled up with Parkinson's. Now, there are those who hate the Papacy and Catholicism who would trumpet that this "proves" his evil. But then, Ronald Reagan also suffered a long, slow, incapacitating, miserable decline unto death.

I don't think it works to look at the means of death, because the Devil and demons are very present in this world, and urge the mean to perpetrate horrors on good people, to do as much damage as possible.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-21   10:43:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Vicomte13 (#188)

I wouldn't want to make that argument.

According to tradition, all of the Apostles except John died bad deaths (and John was tortured by lived), many of them quite gruesome.

Not the manner of how one dies, but one's heart and conviction when the time comes. That is what I was opining on.

"Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." Gregory of Nyssa

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   11:23:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: redleghunter (#182)

Wow, I had never seen that, I must give it some thought.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-21   11:44:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: BobCeleste (#190)

Wow, I had never seen that, I must give it some thought.

I knew Thomas Paine was a deist, but never knew he and his followers were such haters of God's Written Word.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   11:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#190)

Wow, I had never seen that, I must give it some thought.

Now a different example. Compare the two.

The experience of a believing young man

Augustus M. Toplady died in London at the age of 38. He was the author of these immortal words:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,

Let me hide myself in Thee;

Let the water and the blood,

From Thy wounded side which flowed,

Be of sin the double cure –

Save from wrath and make me pure.

He had everything before him to make life desirable, yet when death drew near, his soul exulted in gladness: “Sickness is no affliction, pain no curse, death itself no dissolution; and yet how this soul of mine longs to be gone – like a bird imprisoned in its cage, it longs to take its flight. Had I wings like a dove, then would I fly away to the bosom of God and be at rest forever.”

About an hour before he died he seemed to awaken from a gentle slumber. “Oh, what delights! Who can fathom the joys of heaven? What a bright sunshine has been spread around me! I have no words to express it. I know it cannot be long now till my Saviour will come for me... surely after the glories that God has manifested to my soul! All is light, light, light – the brightness of His own glory! O come, Lord Jesus, come quickly!”

Then he closed his eyes, his spirit going to be with Christ; his body falling asleep, to be awakened with others of like precious faith on that great day when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven “to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe” (2 Thess. 1:10).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-21   11:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: redleghunter (#189)

Not the manner of how one dies, but one's heart and conviction when the time comes. That is what I was opining on.

Ah. Well, that, yes certainly. I agree.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-21   13:30:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: redleghunter (#192)

Excellent. I needed this.

Bob

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-22   11:59:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: BobCeleste (#194)

Here's another Bob:

Stretching the hand to God’s kingdom

A former governor of Massachusetts, John Brooks, said the following words on his death-bed: “I see nothing terrible in death. In looking to the future I have no fears, for I know in whom I have believed. I look back upon my past life with humility and am aware of my many imperfections, but I now rest my soul on the mercy of my Creator through the only Mediator, His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Oh, what ground of hope there is in that saying of the Apostle that God is in Christ reconciling the guilty world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” (2 Cor. 5:19). He put out his hand and was asked what he was reaching for. “A kingdom,” he whispered just as he passed away.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   14:15:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: redleghunter (#195)

Over the past few months I have had much time t reflect on my life, I also know where I am going.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-22   16:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: BobCeleste (#196)

Here's the concluding paragraphs of the site I've been quoting:

It is finished!

The meaning of the last word uttered by Jesus Christ on the cross before He died enables all who truly believe in Him as their Saviour, to die in the peace and victory of Golgotha. Almost 2 000 years ago Jesus cried out on the cross: “It is finished!” All the demands for the salvation of sinners were met on the cross, and people everywhere are to be faced with the choice of either accepting or rejecting it. To be for or against Christ, and soon to be judged for all eternity in terms of your relationship with Him, calls for a clear understanding of what the atoning death of Jesus on the cross means to you. What is the full significance of His dying-word when He shouted with a loud voice: “It is finished”?

Jesus was nailed to the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of lost humanity (Isa. 53:5-6). As “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6: 23), He was not only to suffer physically but also to be executed on our behalf. It was therefore only when He died that He fulfilled all the requirements for God’s plan of salvation. During those very last moments when Jesus gave up His life, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commend My spirit!” and then exclaimed loudly: “Tetelestai!” – “It is finished!” (Luke 23:46; John 19:30).

To fully comprehend the significance of the word tetelestai that was uttered by Jesus at the moment of His death, we should briefly investigate its applications during the first century. This word was more meaningful to those people than to us today, and we will do well to retrieve its original meaning.

Fully paid. In the first instance, according to the Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, the word tetelestai was used as the first word on a receipt. It therefore conveys the meaning of fully paid. Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus actually bought you when He shed His blood and gave His life for you? Paul reminds us of this truth: “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s” (1 Cor. 6:20).

Peter said, “...you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct... but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot” (1 Pet. 1:18-19). The testimony of the elders in heaven confirms their full realisation that they had been bought with the blood of the Lamb, when they sang: “You were slain (sacrificed) and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9; Amplified Bible).

Dear reader, do you have the assurance that the price for your sins has been fully paid? Do you comply with the condition of repentance and confession of your sins to have them forgiven? The Word of God says: “He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy” (Prov. 28: 13; see also 1 John 1:8-9).

After conversion, we ought to walk with the Lord and keep our record clean by confessing all sins of which the Holy Spirit convicts us (1 John 2:1-2). Don’t enter the new life with a heritage of carnal attitudes and unconfessed sins. It will eventually cripple you spiritually. Jesus has paid the full price to do a complete work in your life. He wants to save and sanctify you. Don’t leave the throne of grace with hidden sins that have not been confessed and forsaken.

Sentence served. During the first century it was common practice to nail the charge-sheet of a prisoner to his cell-door. The offences for which he was convicted were written on the charge-sheet, as well as the penalty imposed upon him. After he served his sentence, the charge-sheet was removed from the door and cancelled by writing across it in big letters: Tetelestai (‘fully served’). It was then given to him and nobody could ever charge him again for these offences. He had paid the price for his trespasses in full by serving the entire sentence.

In a spiritual sense all human beings are captives of Satan, “for all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). They find themselves in his death cells awaiting their trial before the great white throne where they will be condemned to eternal death. The prison master is the devil, and no person can free himself of his own accord from this severe bondage, or from the death sentence imposed upon him.

To save lost sinners, Jesus Christ willingly served the death sentenced that has already in principle been imposed upon all sinners (Rom. 6:23). After His resurrection from the grave, He is in a position to cancel the charge-sheet of every lost sinner by writing in red letters with His blood across it: Tetelestai – Sentence served.

“You were dead in sins, and your sinful desires were not yet cut away. Then He gave you a share in the very life of Christ, for He forgave all your sins, and blotted out the charges proved against you, the list of his commandments which you had not obeyed. He took this list of sins and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross” (Col. 2:13-14; Living Bible).

The Saviour was indeed sent to earth “to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” (Isa. 42:7; King James Version). His mission to free those who are spiritual captives of Satan, is also reiterated in Isaiah 61: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound” (Isa. 61:1).

Have all the sins of which the devil accuses you before the throne of God been blotted out by the blood of the Lamb? If so, nobody can ever accuse you again for those sins, no matter how serious they were, because the sentence for them has been fully served.

Victory gained. A third usage of the term tetelestai was related to successful military campaigns against the enemy. When a general returned from the battle- field and paraded his captives of war in the streets of Rome, he proclaimed his victory by shouting: Tetelestai... tetelestai... By this victory shout a clear statement was made that the enemy was conquered and its power broken: mission accomplished!

Although it was His dying-word on the cross, Jesus also proclaimed His victory over the enemy with the shout: Tetelestai! To die was a major victory for Jesus, “that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14). “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it” (Col. 2:15).

Jesus conquered the enemy, but has not yet obliterated him. The devil is still very active on earth; therefore we are called upon to share in the victory of Calvary and become “more than conquerors through Him that loved us” (Rom. 8:37). There is a battle to be fought and a victory to be gained.

Let us make the most of the remaining time by serving the Lord and extending His kingdom on earth. The shadows are falling and the sands of time are rapidly running out. Like the Lord Jesus, we should also say: “I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work” (John 9:4).

The night of God’s judgements in the great tribulation is fast approaching, and there is still much work to be done for Him before the last trumpet sounds. The lost must be saved and Christians must be spiritually prepared to meet their heavenly Bridegroom. Allow the Lord to complete His wonderful work in your life: “Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it... that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:25-27).

The Lord Jesus is not only our Saviour from the sins, corruptive influence and spiritual captivity of Satan; He is also our sanctification to lead us into a life of holiness, victory and abundant service in His everlasting kingdom.

Death Bed Experiences

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   16:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Gatlin (#197)

From a post on another thread you mentioned you wanted to study more about Christ. Here's a good start:

libertysflame.com/cgi- bin...rtNum=37141&Disp=197#C197

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-22   16:29:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: BobCeleste, redleghunter (#196)

Over the past few months I have had much time t reflect on my life, I also know where I am going.

If it's Disneyland best make sure you measles shots are up to date.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   16:37:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: redleghunter (#198)

From a post on another thread you mentioned you wanted to study more about Christ. Here's a good start:

I don't think I said that.

If I did, I meant to say I always want to learn about Religion.

Thanks for the link.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-01-22   16:44:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: Gatlin, redleghunter (#200)

If I did, I meant to say I always want to learn about Religion.

I suggest asking God first as He is always willing to oblige - at least that is what He has been telling everyone.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-22   16:49:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: SOSO (#199)

If it's Disneyland best make sure you measles shots are up to date.

opps,

i don't do vaccines.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-23   10:22:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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