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Humor
See other Humor Articles

Title: Be a man, try running Liberty Post
Source: LP
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 12, 2015
Author: Sneakypete and TooConservative
Post Date: 2015-01-12 16:37:59 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 118597
Comments: 263

>> TooConservative-- Before you just shut it down, have you done any tally of results? Just eyeballing it, it looks like tpaine is probably above 60%.

>> Sneakypete---- Seems to ME that if TPaine is serious he would quit being a wuss and stand up like a man and say he will accept a 51 percent vote tally by regular posters as a victory and step up to the plate.

----It isn't me that would have to be a man and take all the bullshit... It would be the moderator. And my choice for mod would have been TooConservative, or Sneakypete, or even better, both of you.

----Tell you what, if you two take over mod/tech functions, I'd be willing to put up the money for the first year as the 'owner', and take responsibly for any legal problems we might encounter.

>> After all,he has never pretended to be anything other than a Libertarian with a "Big L",and since when have Bil L Libertarians ever demanded a 75 percent vote for anything?

-----I've never belonged to the big 'L' party. I consider myself a constitutional libertarian, who votes (mostly) republican.

>> In MY mind,if he doesn't man up and and accept ownership if he gets the majority of the votes,he was never serious about it to start with.

---I'll call your bluff. Put up (joining me, as above) or shut up about man-ing up.

>> I personally hope this isn't the case because I think all political discussion boards need Big L Libertarian owners/moderators. Anyone else and they just turn into partisan party arms preaching the party line with no dissent allowed. Without dissent there is no discussion.

---Here's your chance to put your man-ing up with your mouth. How bout it?

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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      .

#223. To: A Pole, tpaine (#221)

Why are you trying to attack "sysadmin-LP"?

Just fighting for truth, justice, and the American way.

Remember, sysadmin posted

I've been with LP since Goldi and Neil came up with the idea, helped build the first server, and have worked with it ever since behind the scenes.

That first server was provided by and in the office of John B. Kotmair at 12 Carroll St., Westminster, MD, the address of SAPF and Liberty Post.

Goldi-Lox and Pinguinite were followers of John B. Kotmair and SAPF. It appears sysadmin was another member of the fold.

John B. Kotmair was Federal Bureau of Prisons inmate # 18066-037.

Son Edward L. Kotmair was Federal Bureau of Prisons inmate # 33337-037. That was his second stretch. Earlier he was state Offender Number 0229959 doing time at Hartnett Correctional Institution.

http://www.bop.gov/inmateloc/

I can see how the people from SAPF can vouch for each other's integrity.

Gee, what was their business?

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff - Appellee,
v.
JOHN B. KOTMAIR, JR., D/B/A SAVE-A-PATRIOT FELLOWSHIP AND NATIONAL WORKERS RIGHTS COMMITTEE; SAVE-A-PATRIOT FELLOWSHIP, AN UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION,
Defendants - Appellants.

UNPUBLISHED

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT

Appeal from the United States District Court for
the District of Maryland, at Baltimore.
William M. Nickerson, Senior District Judge.
(1:05-cv-01297-WMN)

Submitted: July 24, 2007
Decided: July 26, 2007

Before WILKINSON, TRAXLER, and DUNCAN, Circuit Judges.

Affirmed by unpublished per curiam opinion.

John B. Kotmair, Jr., Appellant Pro Se; George E. Harp, Shreveport, Louisiana, for Appellant SAVE-A-PATRIOT FELLOWSHIP, an unincorporated association.

Richard Farber, Carol Ann Barthel, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, Washington, D.C., for Appellee.

Unpublished opinions are not binding precedent in this circuit.

PER CURIAM:

John B. Kotmair, Jr., and Save-A-Patriot Fellowship appeal from the district court's orders granting summary judgment in favor of the United States and issuing a permanent injunction against them based on their activities in promoting a tax evasion scheme, and denying their motions for a new trial and for modification of the injunction. We have reviewed the record and find no reversible error. Accordingly, we affirm for the reasons stated by the district court. United States v. Kotmair, No. 1:05-cv-01297-WMN (D. Md. Nov. 29, 2006; Feb. 7, 2007). We deny Save-A-Patriot's motion to strike portions of the brief filed by the United States, and we dispense with oral argument because the facts and legal contentions are adequately presented in the materials before the court and argument would not aid the decisional process.

AFFIRMED

Have another,

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19961657962FSupp695_11553

SAVE-A-PATRIOT FELLOWSHIP v. U.S. Civil Action No. MJG-95-935.

962 F.Supp. 695 (1996)

SAVE-A-PATRIOT FELLOWSHIP, Plaintiff,
v.
UNITED STATES of America, Defendant.

United States District Court, D. Maryland.
December 18, 1996.

Beverly A. Moses, Trial Attorney, Tax Division, U.S. Dept. of Justice,
Washington, DC, for Plaintiff.

George E. Harp, Shreveport, LA, for Defendant.

MEMORANDUM OF DECISION

GARBIS, District Judge.

[...]

The SAP Fellowship chose not to maintain any bank accounts or even maintain records of its finances.

[...]

The record establishes that Kotmair was entitled to, felt free to, and did, take funds from the Fellowship and use them for his personal sustenance. Kotmair espouses a doctrine that would have funds that he takes to spend for personal use remain the property of the SAP Fellowship. Indeed, in the world according to Kotmair, if he uses Foundation funds for his food, the Foundation ownership extends to the food even as it proceeds through his digestive system. For example:

THE COURT: [W]e are trying to get an understanding of when something belongs to you and when it doesn't. When it belongs to [the SAP Fellowship], so I just want you to try and help me understand that. If you go to the grocery store and you buy Wheaties [with fellowship funds], when is it yours, after you eat it or. Kotmair: That is a hard question to answer. THE COURT: That is why we ask it. Kotmair: If the energy from it goes to the Fellowship, and it does, I would say it is to the benefit of the fellowship.

The Court declines to follow the "logic" of Kotmair's position or to dwell upon the point in the digestive process at which Kotmair would agree that the I.R.S. could effect collection. Rather, the Court must conclude that once Kotmair takes Fellowship funds for personal use, those funds can no longer be found to be Fellowship property immune from levy for Kotmair's tax liabilities.

The Court finds from the evidence that the SAP Fellowship obtained, and had ownership of, the cash and money orders it received for memberships and the sales of goods, and, possibly services. If the Fellowship had established that Kotmair's possession of particular assets was solely as Fiduciary for the SAP Fellowship the ownership could remain in the Fellowship. However, at such point as Kotmair took the assets and did not place

[962 F.Supp. 701]

them in a location23 that was exclusively used for the maintenance of Fellowship assets, the ability of the SAP Fellowship to establish ownership in this case was lost. In the context of this case, once the cash and money orders were taken from the Office and placed in something other than a Fellowship depository, the funds were available for the immediate personal use of Kotmair, mingled with his own assets, and no longer had the character of Fellowship assets sufficient to avoid levy.

In this case, the cash and money orders that had been removed from the Office prior to the raid were found in the Residence in various locations, none of which have been established to be exclusive association depositories. However, the Court finds that the $384 of cash, the $210 of money orders and $40 of Susan B. Anthony Dollars found at the Office were, when found, property of the SAP Fellowship which had not yet been mingled with Kotmair's personal assets. Accordingly, the Court concludes that the SAP Fellowship has carried its burden of proof and proven ownership with regard to these assets found in the Office, but not as to the cash and money orders found in the Residence.

[...]

Who is that sysadmin mystery man who helped with that first server in the SAPF office in 2002 and has "worked with it ever since behind the scenes."

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-16   0:10:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: nolu chan (#223)

Why are you trying to attack "sysadmin-LP"?

Just fighting for truth, justice, and the American way.

Seems like a vindictive personality attack. Not a political debate. Is your objective to punish or intimidate "sysadmin-LP"?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-16   2:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: nolu chan (#185)

Wait for what?

Probate of the estate. The legal process.

And who says SysAdmin isn't waiting? He said that may happen, and if it does, then things will go that course. That is, by definition, waiting. I don't understand why you feel like some crime or civil offence has been committed. If Florida wants the domain name and web site as part of Sally's estate, they can come and get it. No problem.

When I asked "wait for what" I really meant "do what while we wait?" I listed a bunch of options, and asked what you would do in sysadmin's place, but you failed to answer.

You have raised a big stink about something no being done right, or something being done wrong, but as far as I can tell, you have failed to state what that is. You simply rehash the same claim about LP belonging to Florida.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   4:43:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: Fibr Dog, nolu chan (#198)

You sure are making a mountain out of a molehill. Unless you plan on contacting the authorities in Florida and wasting their time with this foolishness you are beating a dead horse for no other purpose than to hear the thud. To what purpose?

Indeed. I fully and heartily recommend that Nolu do his civic duty and contact the state of Florida and inform them of this grave injustice.

Do it. I'm totally serious.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   4:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: Nexus6 (#199) (Edited)

Chan is correct. Sysadmin and Neil had absolutely no right to offer anything to anyone under the Liberty Post name. They were essentially offering what was not theirs to offer to you and or Pericles. With no will and not being corporate officers, their actions were their own and most likely illegal.

Offering anything is hardly illegal, in of itself. But the fact that it was not turned over to anyone makes the matter moot.

I am 110% certain that one or both asked a lawyer, after they had started their dog and pony show, as to what was legal or not and were told what to do to avoid any legal trouble.

Oh, absolutely. Consulting a big legal firm was definitely worth the time and expense to avoid a raid from DHS over a domain name generates zero income.

They are lucky... so far. A government stooge with a little time on their hands could make their lives miserable for a while as they dig into the mess.

Hey it could still happen........ He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   4:57:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: Pinguinite, Fibr Dog, nolu chan (#226)

I fully and heartily recommend that Nolu do his civic duty and contact the state of Florida and inform them of this grave injustice.

He, he. And what the state of Florida will do? It will proudly declare LP server and domain the heritage site of the Sunshine State. Or will it sell it for twenty bucks to the wicked sys-admin?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-16   5:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: Nexus6 (#207)

You would have had a hell of a time explaining that to a government worker bee looking for $$$ from Goldi's estate. You are damn lucky those two dopes figured it out before they got themselves and you or Pericles in some trouble.

Being away from LP as long as I have has given me the distinct benefit of not having to read such nonsense from people that just come up with crap to fulfill a need to hate or despise. You have an agenda, and you jump on any opportunity to ridicule people you don't know.

The decision not to hand off LP was made out of consideration only with regard to what was morally appropriate, as discussed on LP.

Even if LP had been handed off to someone, if Florida came knocking and wanted the domain, then they still get it. You are treating this like it is destruction of property. Insane.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   5:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: Nexus6 (#210)

You can bet the State of Florida will find out if they think they can get some money out of it. Someone may be in some trouble over this.

< Yawn ..... zzzzzzz >

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   5:05:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: nolu chan (#220)

Maybe I misunderstand the data, but that, and the background of the site origin, make me curious about what happened when. Who updated on November 17 and what did they update?

May I suggest getting the good Dr. Watson involved? Perhaps Moriarty is involved, staked out in Panama?

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   5:10:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: nolu chan (#215)

Expires On 		January 14, 2015
Registered On 	        January 14, 2002
Updated On 		November 17, 2014

Curiously, Goldi's body was found on November 13, 2014 and the registration was updated on November 17, 2014. Whodunnit?

Very interesting. There must have been some kind of reason that the name was updated on 11/17, since it wasn't set to expire until mid Jan. Perhaps there is a registrar or other source that allows a review of all "updated" dates.

What was "updated" on 11/17, and by who, and why?

libertypost.org expired
As your post #218 indicates, it was renewed/updated on 1/06/15. Was .org also "updated" on 11/17? And if so, who and why?

Operation 40  posted on  2015-01-16   5:13:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: Nexus6 (#210)

You can bet the State of Florida will find out if they think they can get some money out of it.

They did not find out it yet? How are you going to inform then? Perhaps contact the governor?

Will you get a commission or dividend?

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-16   5:14:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: Pinguinite (#227)

over a domain name generates zero income

That was entirely Goldi's fault. She didn't want advertising, and she didn't or couldn't or wouldn't entertain alternatives that don't plaster ads on the front page. (at least as far as I could make out from her limited responses anytime the subject was brought up)

Libertypost.com is the prize, owned by the USPS. But Liberty post.net is not exactly a throwaway. It could be worth at least a few thousand dollars without a website and developed like it was (even though only 100 or so regular posters) could have been valued at more than that. Take a look at the garbage that is actually selling at https://flippa.com/

Any idea who updated libertypost.org and .net in November? Why would that have happened just a few days after her death?

Operation 40  posted on  2015-01-16   5:21:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: Operation 40 (#234)

That was entirely Goldi's fault. She didn't want advertising, and she didn't or couldn't or wouldn't entertain alternatives that don't plaster ads on the front page. (at least as far as I could make out from her limited responses anytime the subject was brought up)

Who cares? Fact remains, it's a zero income generator.

Libertypost.com is the prize, owned by the USPS. But Liberty post.net is not exactly a throwaway. It could be worth at least a few thousand dollars without a website and developed like it was (even though only 100 or so regular posters) could have been valued at more than that. Take a look at the garbage that is actually selling at https://flippa.com/

It's only worth what people pay, not what price a cybersquatter outfit asks for it.

Any idea who updated libertypost.org and .net in November? Why would that have happened just a few days after her death?

I suggest you ask the outfit that claims it was updated. While you are at it you could also ask them what constitutes an "update".

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   5:27:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: Operation 40 (#234)

"over a domain name generates zero income"

That was entirely Goldi's fault.

Only if the income was the key objective.

developed like it was (even though only 100 or so regular posters) could have been valued at more than that

These 100 posters are not owned by LP. They could flee in matter of seconds. Unless you find a way to indenture them and squeeze a rent from it.

A Pole  posted on  2015-01-16   5:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: nolu chan (#215)

Curiously, Goldi's body was found on November 13, 2014 and the registration was updated on November 17, 2014. Whodunnit?

The registrar might have done it. Or sysadmin might have updated a telephone or email contact entry. Routine.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-16   7:45:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: nolu chan (#218)

Email goldi@libertypost.org

Bogus info, I think. AFAIK, Goldi never hosted a mail server there. Perhaps sysadmin at some point put an email redirection in there.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-16   7:47:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone, nolu chan, Devil Anse (#227) (Edited)

This thread should be removed. nolu has had his points to make, many of them valid. But this has gone on long enough.

This thread should be removed now and nolu should be told to stop posting on this topic or find a new forum to post on.

nolu, it's time to move on from this topic. You've made your points.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-16   7:55:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: Pinguinite (#229)

Your opinion is not the law. Thank you for your opinion.

Nexus6  posted on  2015-01-16   8:34:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: A Pole (#233)

To: Nexus6 You can bet the State of Florida will find out if they think they can get some money out of it. They did not find out it yet? How are you going to inform then? Perhaps contact the governor?

Will you get a commission or dividend?

Why would I do anything like that? What a strange post.

Nexus6  posted on  2015-01-16   8:41:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: TooConservative (#237)

The registrar might have done it.

Absurd.

You're like the guy that reads Cooking for Dummies and thinks they are a Chef.

Operation 40  posted on  2015-01-16   9:05:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: TooConservative (#239)

nolu, it's time to move on from this topic. You've made your points.

I'm new here, are you a moderator?

Operation 40  posted on  2015-01-16   9:06:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: Operation 40 (#243)

I'm new here, are you a moderator?

You have a new account. I doubt very much you are actually a new poster.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-16   9:16:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Operation 40 (#242)

You're like the guy that reads Cooking for Dummies and thinks they are a Chef.

When you posted that it was equally or more desirable to allow Twitter to shorten URLs for you instead of storing your own short-URLs, I dismissed the idea that you know anything substantive about computers or the internet.

So should I just call you jwpegler? You sure seem concerned about him.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-16   9:24:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: All (#0)

Nevermind.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-16   11:02:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: nolu chan (#223)

Since someone here has seen fit to inflate this whole LP issue to the ridiculous level of even including SAPF, I'll say this:

Anyone interested in the case against SAPF can find it voluntarily posted by SAPF on the SAPF web site, http://save-a-patriot.org. Not just the final order, but the entire case from start to finish. The final order required SAPF to post the order itself on the SAPF web site for 1 year. SAPF has gone above and beyond that by posting all docs related to the case for the last 5 years, encouraging all to research it, and will likely have it there as long as the site exists, that done as a protest of the manner in which the court handled the case.

SAPF is made up of principled honest people. The founder, John Kotmair, was a police officer who quit the force after witnessing widespread corruption in trusted offices and on the force. I understand he was convicted some years later of willful failure to file income tax returns and received a 2 year sentence for doing so. He went to jail and returned from it completely defiant, upon his release founding SAPF in an attempt to bring light to injustice.

SAPF has both won and lost cases against the US government in federal court. Most notably winning a case after a highly publicized federal armed raid which seized everything from the fellowship. The government was subsequently ordered by the court in that case to return everything (literally truckloads) taken from the fellowship at it's own expense.

John Kotmair's son, Edward, to the best of my knowledge was never a member of SAPF, and consequently, any actions of his are his alone, and do not reflect on the fellowship.

There are those who consider legislative bodies to be Gods, the laws they enact to be a Holy Bible, and those who administer it to be High Priests. I am not one of those people. Like many things in life, law has it's purpose, but is hardly the final authority in defining moral right and wrong. Rather it's often a tool of abuse, as is easily witnessed when it's applied selectively, not to mention those times when the laws themselves are completely immoral.

Morality trumps laws of man. And there are times when doing the right moral thing means going against what some men have made into law. There are no shortage of examples of this throughout history, the illegality of the American Revolution being only a single but significant example. Those who fail to recognize this lack moral fiber and any moral vision whatsoever.

You may now continue your hyper sensitivity to the outcome of the dispensation of a single, virtually worthless web site while ignoring gross, far-reaching human rights abuses committed daily by the US government and other supposed authorities.

Have a nice day.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-16   13:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: Pinguinite (#247)

Morality trumps laws of man. And there are times when doing the right moral thing means going against what some men have made into law. There are no shortage of examples of this throughout history, the illegality of the American Revolution being only a single but significant example. Those who fail to recognize this lack moral fiber and any moral vision whatsoever.

You may now continue your hyper sensitivity to the outcome of the dispensation of a single, virtually worthless web site while ignoring gross, far-reaching human rights abuses committed daily by the US government and other supposed authorities.

Very well said, Neil.

I really don't understand why folks are still bickering over a website which has been shut down after it's owner passed away in November! It was very kind, IMHO, for sysadmin to keep it up for as long as he did -- but that was an act of charity, not of obligation.

Orthodoxa  posted on  2015-01-16   13:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: Pinguinite (#247)

Nexus6  posted on  2015-01-16   13:59:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#250. To: Nexus6 (#249)

Hopefully the next time someone commits a petty crime

Are you accusing someone of a criminal act?

Palmdale  posted on  2015-01-16   14:11:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: Palmdale (#250)

Are you accusing someone of a criminal act?

That would be for the courts to decide.

I would say that, without any legal authority under a will or corporate structure, an individual attempted to transfer control of someone else's property to another.

You do the math.

Nexus6  posted on  2015-01-16   14:24:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: Nexus6 (#251)

That would be for the courts to decide.

Or not.

Palmdale  posted on  2015-01-16   16:20:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: Orthodoxa (#248) (Edited)

Some people just want to complain about everything, sad life they lead.

That's one thing I can't stand is a self absorbed whiner.

Devil Anse  posted on  2015-01-16   18:10:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#254. To: A Pole (#224)

Seems like a vindictive personality attack. Not a political debate. Is your objective to punish or intimidate "sysadmin-LP"?

It is a thread "Title: Be a man, try running Liberty Post" posted in Humor. That does not seem to be a political debate topic to me.

There were pleas for trust in an anonymous person. Words of wisdom were "trust but verify."

I commented on what I observed as unlawful acts. For those who pushed back with legal nonsense or purported moral justification of unlawful actions, or have posted outright falsehoods, I returned fire.

I do not care what sysadmin does or what happens to him. sysadmin can do as he pleases. I can state facts and opine pursuant to those facts.

I do care about scam artists who hurt other people who put their trust in them. The harm caused by the SAPF organization has been well documented. I would not trust any of them without verification.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   20:24:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: Pinguinite (#225)

And who says SysAdmin isn't waiting?

sysadmin made it clear he took actions. Actions he had no authority to take. It does not matter if you consider them right, wrong or moral.

You simply rehash the same claim about LP belonging to Florida.

LP does not belong to the state of Florida. Not yet. Not until she has been declared to have no living relatives. LP and the entirety of Goldi's property belongs to Goldi's estate. It is for the state to determine to whom the property belongs.

Probate. Court procedure by which a will is proved to be valid or invalid; though in current usage this term has been expanded to generally refer to the legal process wherein the estate of a decedent is administered. Generally, the probate process involves collecting a decedent's assets, liquidating liabilities, paying necessary taxes, and distributing property to heirs. These activities are carried out by the executor or administrator of the estate, usually under the supervision of the probate court or other court of appropriate jurisdiction.

Black's Law Dict., 6th Ed.

If Goldi had given someone a copy of the keys to her car before she died so he could use it to run her errands, that would not mean that same someone with the keys could drive it while waiting for the state to find it. It does not mean they could take it home and park it in their garage either.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   20:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: Pinguinite (#226)

Indeed. I fully and heartily recommend that Nolu do his civic duty and contact the state of Florida and inform them of this grave injustice.

If I thought there was a need to notify them or the IRS, I might consider it.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   20:27:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: Pinguinite (#231)

May I suggest getting the good Dr. Watson involved? Perhaps Moriarty is involved, staked out in Panama?

It seems like Inspector Closeau staked, out in Ecuador, is on the job.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   20:28:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: nolu chan (#255)

Actions he had no authority to take.

How do you know that to be a fact?

yukon  posted on  2015-01-17   20:36:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: Pinguinite (#247)

John Kotmair's son, Edward, to the best of my knowledge was never a member of SAPF, and consequently, any actions of his are his alone, and do not reflect on the fellowship.

Nice try. Try your phoney nonsense on someone else. Trust an SAPF crony if one must, but always verify.

The Court wrote that Edward Louis Kotmair was member of a tax protest organization, namely Save a Patriot Fellowship. Following what Pinguinite said, that must mean that his actions are not his alone and do reflect on the fellowship scamming operation.

The Court found, that as he knew his father went to jail for failure to file, that was sufficient to infer that Edward's failure was willful.

USA v Edward Louis Kotmair, USCA 4th Cir 00-4139 (2001), OPINION at 2-3:

Kotmair next challenges the sufficiency of the evidence to support his convictions. Kotmair stipulated that he did not file tax returns for 1990, 1991, and 1992, and that his income exceeded the exemption amounts. The only issue before the jury was whether Kotmair's failure to file was willful. See Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192, 201-02 (1991). The trial evidence, viewed in the light most favorable to the government, Glasser v. United States, 315 U.S. 60, 80 (1942), showed that Kotmair had large amounts of income for the years in question, he failed to keep business records, he conducted business largely on a cash basis, he attempted to hide income and assets by requiring payments in amounts less than $10,000, he belonged to a tax protest organization, namely Save a Patriot Fellowship, he was notified by the IRS of his duty to file a return, and his father--founder of Save a Patriot--went to jail for his failure to file. This evidence was sufficient for the jury to infer that Kotmair's failure to file was willful.

Id. at 4:

The final issue Kotmair raises is whether the district court clearly erred in enhancing Kotmair's offense level by two for the use of sophisticated means to impede the discovery of the nature or extent of his offense. "Sophisticated means" includes"conduct that is more complex or demonstrates greater intricacy or planning than a routine tax evasion case." USSG § 2T1.2, comment. (n.2). The district court applied the enhancement after noting that Kotmair engaged in structuring and laundering of his income to prevent the creation of currency transaction reports. Because Kotmair failed to offer any evidence to refute the findings in the presentence report, there was no clear error by the district court in adopting these findings.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/793011/posts?page=326#326

http://www.etaxes.com/tax_scams.html

http://www.paylesstax.com/tax_scams/recent_tax_fraud_cases.html

RALEIGH - United States Attorney Janice McKenzie Cole announced that EDWARD L. KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) 41, of Westminster, Maryland, was sentenced in federal court here on Thursday, February 3, 2000, for failure to file federal income tax returns. Chief U. S. District Judge Terrence W. Boyle imposed a sentence of 27 months imprisonment and a supervised release term of one year.

Following a three-day jury trial in September, 1999, KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) was convicted of failing to file federal income tax returns for the years 1990, 1991, and 1992. During those years, KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) operated his own carpentry business, Commercial Installers, located in Cary, N. C. His company earned income of approximately 1.7 million dollars during the three-year period. Some of KOTMAIR's income came from the United States Government while he did subcontracting work on the Library of Congress and a Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation building in Washington, D. C. KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) was arrested in September, 1998, and has remained in federal custody since that time.

During his trial, KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) attempted to convince the jury that he did not believe he was required to pay income taxes. The jury rejected his argument and found him guilty on all three counts of the indictment. KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org) is a member of Save-A-Patriot Fellowship, a tax protest organization located in Westminster, Maryland. The group, which was founded by KOTMAIR's father, John B. Kotmair, states that U. S. citizens living and working in the United States are not required to pay income taxes. The elder Kotmair was convicted of failure to file federal income tax returns in the early 1980's and served a prison term. Other members of Save-A-Patriot Fellowship (http://www.save-a-patriot.org), including close associates of KOTMAIR (http://www.save-a-patriot.org), also have been convicted of income tax charges and sentenced to prison.

According to U. S. Attorney Cole, federal courts and juries have consistently rejected the arguments of "tax protest" organizations, including the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship (http://www.save-a-patriot.org), and have upheld the income tax laws and their applicability to everyone.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   21:00:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: nolu chan (#259)

Do you get invited to many parties?

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-01-17   21:03:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: Pinguinite (#247)

Morality trumps laws of man. And there are times when doing the right moral thing means going against what some men have made into law. There are no shortage of examples of this throughout history, the illegality of the American Revolution being only a single but significant example. Those who fail to recognize this lack moral fiber and any moral vision whatsoever.

The SAPF morality, and yours, is to state you have no legal obligation to pay income taxes. Indeed, SAPF members would sell that crap, frequently very expensive crap for the deceived buyer who relied on it. That hardly requires the moral fiber of the founders, nor does it equate to the American Revolution.

You may now continue your hyper sensitivity to the outcome of the dispensation of a single, virtually worthless web site while ignoring gross, far-reaching human rights abuses committed daily by the US government and other supposed authorities.

Have a nice day.

And you may continue to defend unlawful acts. Have a nice day. But please try to make your claims accurate. Too many accidents and they cease to be considered accidents.

SAPF has both won and lost cases against the US government in federal court. Most notably winning a case after a highly publicized federal armed raid which seized everything from the fellowship. The government was subsequently ordered by the court in that case to return everything (literally truckloads) taken from the fellowship at it's own expense.

Your mythical, supposed grand victory would be the court decision I quote from at #223 to which you are responding. A check for $634 plus interest does not make a truckload of anything. Perhaps it adds up to another SAPF pantsload.

This is the Court finding of what the Court returned to SAPF, the complete list.

the Court finds that the $384 of cash, the $210 of money orders and $40 of Susan B. Anthony Dollars found at the Office were, when found, property of the SAP Fellowship which had not yet been mingled with Kotmair's personal assets.

Items seized included $44,115 of U.S. currency and various numismatic coins. Uncle Sam kept those.

SAPF declares victory.

http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss8.html

Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments

Part Eight

By Bernard J. Sussman, JD, MLS, CP

[excerpt]

"Save-a-Patriot" (John B. Kotmair) In re Angstadt (Bankr. ED Penn unpub 8/17/94) ("we have come to understand that ‘patriot’ may be a buzz-word for ‘tax protester’."); Kotmair v. CIR (6/19/86) 86 TC 1253; (awareness by perp that founder Kotmair had been convicted of tax evasion serves to negate good faith defense) US v. Crosson (ED Penn unpub 12/20/95); ("Save-a-Patriot" organization cited for contempt of court for its interference with a bankruptcy court proceeding) In re Weatherley (ED Penn unpub 7/15/93); (organization forbidden to accept money for its amateur advice to a litigant in bankruptcy court) In re Weatherley (Bankr. ED Penn 1994) 169 Bankr.Rptr 555, 25 Bankr.Ct.Dec 1427; (in perhaps its only court victory, the organization described itself as a church, and claimed to possess a vial of holy oil from the Temple in Jerusalem, to perform weddings, (allegedly) subsidize incarcerated members who have "resisted and delayed the tyrants at every step through the criminal investigation and all other agency and court proceedings", sell tax-dodge publications as holy scriptures, and (generously) support Kotmair as their cleric, etc. Save-a-Patriot Fellowship v. US (D Md 1996) 962 F.Supp 695; Kotmair refused give testimony voluntarily for one of his followers who was prosecuted for multiple tax evasion. US v. D.D. Murphy (7th Cir unpub 6/10/99);

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   21:05:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: Biff Tannen (#260)

Do you get invited to many parties?

Perhaps I was invited to this one because it is posted in Humor.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-01-17   21:07:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: Biff Tannen, nolu chan (#260)

Do you get invited to many parties?

If nolu is booked up....Liberator is probably available, ask him for a date.

Spartacus  posted on  2015-01-17   22:06:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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