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Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source:
creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 86173
Comments: 223
My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10) We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered. "Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish". "I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"! Tas Walker replies: Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be. The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about. There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life. There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve. Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others. In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared. Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises. Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview). This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision). Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children. If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving. In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5 God bless, Tas Walker
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#1. To: CZ82 (#0)
If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?
The article's title is simple to answer. Ask the pastor if he supports homosexual 'marriage.' Ask the pastor if he supports human life beginning at conception. Ask the pastor if he supports church members divorcing and remarriage and remaining in the assembly. Ask the pastor if he believes God through Moses literally parted the Red Sea; if God through Joshua made the walls of Jericho collapse. (If they answer all of the above affirmatively, then ask why not believe Genesis is literally true) If they have problems answering the above questions find another assembly. If the pastor happens to be a woman, then you don't even have to ask the questions, leave immediately.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
I concur with all of your litmus test (but conditionally on one): Ask the pastor if he supports church members divorcing and remarriage and remaining in the assembly. Sometimes "Condition: RED" can't be helped. Condoning divorce is one thing; however what's done is done in some cases. I don't know if shunning in that case makes sense to me for a hungry, repentant believer.
“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5 Like it.
There is an answer to your question, and I am willing to answer it for you. There is a completely different way to read the Bible. The traditional way, which came out of traditional Catholic and Orthodox thinking, itself came out of traditional Jewish thinking. After all, all 12 Apostles and Paul were Middle Eastern Jews, from the land of Israel and its environs, by birth and culture. Jesus was too, of course, but he is different because of who his Father was and the special knowledge and power he had. The traditional way of seeing it saw the Christian Church as the continuation of the Jewish revelation. While this is certainly true, the key features of it where that the Apostles and the traditionalists did not simply valorize the revelations of God, but also the particular historical and cultural achievements of Israel. They understood God's plan of salvation in a certain way. To follow the traditional thread of thinking, God made man, man fell, and this fall, this original sin, left an imprint of sin on the character of each man. Because of this sin, man could not attain heaven after death. In order to save man, eventually, God chose one people, the Hebrews, and gave them The Law. The Jews waxed and waned, and did not follow the law perfectly. So God sent Jesus to bring the whole world into salvation. Under the Jewish law, the blood of animals released sin, but could not completely release a man of all of his sins. But with Jesus, baptism wipes away original sin, and the blood of Christ's sacrifice is the final, perfect lamb of the Jewish sacrificial cycle, which takes away the sins of the whole world (and not just the Jews). So, through adoption, the world are all Messianic Jews. The reason for Jesus, under the traditional view, is to redeem us from our sins as laid out under the Jewish law. The assumption is that a perfect adherence to the Jewish Law would have led to salvation, but nobody could do it, and so Jesus was sent to do it for everybody. That's the traditional view, and that view depends on the existence of Adam and Eve as literally described in order to establish the Original Sin that needs to be wiped away. That's the traditional read and understanding. It's what Paul understood he was doing. There is a very different way to read the same text. It too arrives at the necessity of Jesus, doing what Jesus did, with the ultimate net result, but which understands what happened along the way, and the role of the Jews in it, very differently. It takes some time to write out, and engenders tremendous hostility among those who see things through the traditional lens, so I'm not too terrible eager to spend the time to write it out and then get beaten upon. Unfortunately the beatings will happen, because writing out what others believe without criticizing it leaves the impression that one advocates that, because people become furious at anything they perceive as a challenge to their traditional beliefs. If you really want to understand how people of good faith and sincerity can think Jesus is vital to salvation without accepting the Adam and Eve or Flood stories as literal, I am willing to go ahead and write it out. But I'm not too eager to deal myself a crap sandwich, and that's what experience tells me I'm going to get if I start actually talking about these things. So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?
YES! Questions to ask pastors: www.christianpatriot.com/08_17_2005.htm
Sure go for it. You are a man of honor. But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above.
How many other things can we see in the Holy Bible with "different" eyes and still believe in the truthfulness of the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Bible isn't open to one's personal interpretation.
Amen. Churches are of men not God.
Great link brother. I still use that link and share with others.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
The more relevant question IMO is what is the reason for Genesis? Why did God create Man to begin with, especially if God is all knowing and knew beforehand that He would have to send His Son to be killed at the hands of Man to bring Man back into His graces? There is a difference between belief and faith. There was a whole thread on LP dedicated to just Genesis. There were a few very well educated on Scriptures posting on that thread. Bottom line, it resolved nothing. Either one has faith or one doesn't. Choosing the flavor of one's religion or church is almost irrelevant. One can make a good argument that churches are divisive not unifying institutions among the faithful. This has the making to be an interesting thread but in the end it will not change anyone's mind or resolve the question.
Come on, Bro, bring it. If I recall correctly some people disgreed with you on LP on the Just Genesis thread but no-one ripped your head off. You made very interesting and articulate points, well worth revisiting here. Besides, this is LF not LP {says Same Old Same Old}.
Oh? Sez who? Please post the one and only authoritative (or is that authoritive) version of the Holy Bible in which all of the faithful MUST believe as the literal representation of historic events that occured prior to any written language. You have several to choose from so please take your time.
Good to see you Bob, how are things going with your treatments?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Some translations are easy to know as bad. Exact translations from original sources are good. I like King James, American Standard, and the revisions of them. I am sure there are others. Are there any that you like?
They are all about the same to me and more or less equally flawed in one way or the other. None represent the Word of God as claimed by each proponant of their claim of being the one and only true representation of the Word of God.
Why did God create Man to begin with, especially if God is all knowing and knew beforehand that He would have to send His Son to be killed at the hands of Man to bring Man back into His graces? The reason for Genesis is exactly that; A brief explanation of The Beginning. As to your other questions, some things will have to remain a mystery in this mortal life. Unless you believe man in his never-ending vanity and arrogance is simply entitled to OR capable of knowing the Game Plan of The Almighty. One can make a good argument that churches are divisive not unifying institutions among the faithful. May be the case at your church. It has been MY observation that heathens, narcissists, atheists, and Muslims are THE most divisive forces on the planet. Do you refute my contention?
The how is explained but not the why. "As to your other questions, some things will have to remain a mystery in this mortal life. I totally concur. Mortal Man can never undrestand the Mind of God, much less the nature of the Infinite. That is why every version, every interpretation of the Bible is flawed. The very essence of language is a man made concept. God doesn't need language. In fact if you liereally believe the Bible, God created different languages to confound Man long before any Christian Bible was ever put into writting. "It has been MY observation that heathens, narcissists, atheists, and Muslims are THE most divisive forces on the planet. Do you refute my contention? " Yes, I do with respect to heathen and atheists, and perhaps narcissists that recognize that there is something greater than themself. I agree with respect to Islam.
On board. That is why every version, every interpretation of the Bible is flawed. Flawed or misinterpreted? OR, misunderstood within the tapestry of scripture? The very essence of language is a man made concept. God doesn't need language. God downloaded language and understanding of it into our DNA and hardrive. Scripture as told/written to man was exactly the way God wanted it articulated. If our heart hardens and our vanity tried to reinterpret scripture as we please, we lose its essential meaning as intended. You may not agree with my assessment -- I understand and accept that. Yes, I do with respect to heathen and atheists, and perhaps narcissists that recognize that there is something greater than themself. I agree with respect to Islam. See? We're not as far apart as it may seem. There's always bound to be quibbling on this entire subject.
Bob, yes, how are you doing? Still battling with all ya got, brutha?
Why? God is Love my friend. 1 John 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Sure go for it. You are a man of honor. But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above. Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.
Thank you Sir, Rat poison is 99.9% good food, but that .1% kills the rat every time, so it is with watered down versions of the Bible and preaching what God meant to say instead of what He did say. God bless, Bob
Thank you, Seems Christ is going to keep me around a bit longer.
Doing good, Seems the Lord likes using surgeons to get my attention, and it works.
Thanks, I believe that this will be a worhwhile endeavor for the interested. May I suggest two therads be started: Why Genesis? and Just Genesis. The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man, the latter the biblical account of Genesis as historical fact and/or meaning. Obvioulsy both why and how of creation have an impact on how one views and accepts the teachings of the Bible. Frankly I expect that the former thread would have a very short existenace as the bottom line is no-one knows why God rolled up His sleves in a creation mode.
God is Love my friend. 1 John 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
No doubt in my mind, among other things. But that doesn't explain why He created Man. Did He need someone to love? Did He need someone to love Him? Did He need the physical Universe to play in? Or for His children to play in? Does God need anything?
God created us in His image and likeness. When a man and woman procreate and the child is born do people ask why they wanted a child?
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
When a man and woman procreate and the child is born do people ask why they wanted a child? People are not God. Soylent green is people. BTW, it used to be common to ask why a married couple didn't want children. What does that have to do with God? {You can't ask for a better set-up than that, you Ole Ram.}
You approach this with a hardened heart. Why does an artist paint? They want to create!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
I know why God filled up the sky and the land: because he wanted to. There is nothing more to it than that. God does what he wants. Why do YOU like, say, blue things? Because you do. You prefer it because you prefer it. So it is with God. God is God. He doesn't have a "reason" as such, that "causes" him to "have to" do something or aim at a result. He's God. He does what he does because it pleases him to do so - a painter on a blank canvas.
The more stubborn someone is usually translates into how long we inhabit this world. Had an Aunt that lived to 99, you could have beaten her with a stick and she wouldn't have changed. :)
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
There is nothing more to it than that. God does what he wants. Well, OK then. God does as He jolly well pleases and we, His creations, can just run around arguing about not only what He did, or if He did, but why He did. It all makes perfect sense now. God does not need to communicate to us a purpose for our existence, and we shouldn't expect to have one, much less ask Him. Thanks for clearing that up.
I would say more of a Doubting Thomas need. My heart is not hardened towards God. It's my human intellect that is seeking answers, answers to questions that I know are beyond human comprehension. But the questions persist. Even Thomas needed tangible proof. Am I less than Thomas in that regard? "Why does an artist paint? Artists are not God. "They want to create!" So we have a God, Lord of the Infinite, that wants, or needs, to create? Heck, even the artist would not engage in creation if he knew the outcome before he started. That would be kind of redundant, if not anti-climatic.
God walked the Earth among us. Dude what more do you need!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Well, that is the way it is. God is God. The Scriptures do record what God said - the rules he laid on us (there are not many). He's free, and he made us to rule over this place. And that's the extent of it. That's what we know, and that's all we know. We can just make shit up and ascribe it to God, if we want to, but when we do that, it's not true.
On this I totally agree. But its human nature to inquire, to want to know why. And isn't God that bestowed that nature upon us? At times it seems that He has a cruel sense of humor.
Tangible proof that God exists and who he is exists. That is a very different question than why he does what he does. WHO, and WHETHER, yes, God reveals that. WHY? That's a question whose only answer is: because he wants to. The tangible proof of God exists: God left specific concrete miracles, things that defy the regular laws of nature, as tangible evidence THAT he is. And the content of those miracles shows us WHO he is (and who he isn't). Nothing answers WHY, and he didn't reveal that. Now, when it comes to the tangible proofs of God, this is a science question. Trying to discuss it, in my experience, always turns into a ridiculous scrum of irrational and unscientific conclusions, for obvious reasons: once the proof is admitted, then one finds one's self forced onto a path of further inquiry and admission that limits ones rational freedom of choice. And people don't like that. They resist it for the same reason that smokers have always resisted the idea that it's bad for their health to smoke. Certainly if we want to go the route of Thomas and have the tangible proof, THAT we can have and do have, in spades. But just because we have it doesn't mean that men who don't want there to be such proof will accept it. The proof is not in the form of written words. Words are wind. Rather, the written words give us the backstory of the proofs. The proofs are tangible artifacts left by God. The written words give context to the artifacts, and the artifacts vouch for the written words. In tandem, they give us the skein of proof, history and law. What we choose to do with it then is up to us. Men who don't want there to be a God, or a law, will cross their arms and claim there is no proof. Baghdad Bob said that the Americans weren't in Baghdad too. Denial of reality doesn't change the reality. You spoke of two different threads: What Genesis said, and Why God did all of that. But here, you broached the subject that really is a completely different subject for a thread: the tangible physical proof of God. That's not in Genesis at all. Genesis is words on a page. Actual Thomas-satisfying proof is physical stuff you can touch and examine under a microscope...and when you do, discover that it cannot be under the laws of physics, but nevertheless IS. THAT is proof. Thomas didn't say "I won't believe unless I see", and then, when shown by Christ, say "I still don't believe. You could be a ghost or I might be crazy or hallucinating." The Pharisees were the ones doing that. They saw Jesus heal paralytics and couldn't deny it, so they said "He did it with the power of Satan". The price of accepting the evidence would have meant the overthrow of their religion and the acceptance of a new one, and many men would rather die than do that.
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#2. To: A K A Stone, BobCeleste, liberator (#1)
#3. To: redleghunter (#2)
#4. To: CZ82 (#0)
In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.
#5. To: A K A Stone (#1)
If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?
#6. To: CZ82 (#0)
My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
#7. To: Vicomte13 (#5)
So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?
#8. To: Vicomte13 (#5)
#9. To: CZ82 (#0)
#10. To: CZ82 (#0)
There is no such thing as a perfect church.
#11. To: BobCeleste (#6)
#12. To: A K A Stone, CZ82, vicomte13, redleghunter (#1)
If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#5)
So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?
#14. To: Don (#9)
The Holy Bible isn't open to one's personal interpretation.
#15. To: BobCeleste (#6)
#16. To: SOSO (#14)
#17. To: Don (#16)
Some translations are easy to know as bad. Exact translations from original sources are good. I like King James, American Standard, and the revisions of them. I am sure there are others. Are there any that you like?
#18. To: SOSO, A K A Stone, CZ82, vicomte13, redleghunter (#12)
The more relevant question IMO is what is the reason for Genesis?
#19. To: Liberator, A K A Stone, CZ82, vicomte13, redleghunter (#18)
The reason for Genesis is exactly that; A brief explanation of The Beginning.
#20. To: SOSO (#19)
(Edited)
Mortal Man can never undrestand the Mind of God, much less the nature of the Infinite.
#21. To: CZ82, BobCeleste (#15)
#22. To: SOSO, Liberator, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, CZ82, TooConservative (#19)
The how is explained but not the why.
#23. To: A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#7)
So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?
#24. To: redleghunter (#11)
#25. To: CZ82 (#15)
Good to see you Bob, how are things going with your treatments?
#26. To: Liberator (#21)
Bob, yes, how are you doing? Still battling with all ya got, brutha?
#27. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#23)
Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.
#28. To: SOSO (#27)
The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man
#29. To: redleghunter (#28)
God is Love my friend.
#30. To: SOSO (#29)
#31. To: redleghunter (#30)
God created us in His image and likeness.
#32. To: SOSO (#31)
#33. To: SOSO (#27)
(Edited)
May I suggest two therads be started: Why Genesis? and Just Genesis. The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man, the latter the biblical account of Genesis as historical fact and/or meaning. Obvioulsy both why and how of creation have an impact on how one views and accepts the teachings of the Bible. Frankly I expect that the former thread would have a very short existenace as the bottom line is no-one knows why God rolled up His sleves in a creation mode.
#34. To: BobCeleste (#25)
#35. To: Vicomte13 (#33)
I know why God filled up the sky and the land: because he wanted to.
#36. To: redleghunter (#32)
You approach this with a hardened heart.
#37. To: SOSO (#36)
#38. To: SOSO (#35)
Well, OK then. God does as He jolly well pleases and we, His creations, can just run around arguing about not only what He did, or if He did, but why He did. It all makes perfect sense now. God does not need to communicate to us a purpose for our existence, and we shouldn't expect to have one, much less ask Him. Thanks for clearing that up.
#39. To: Vicomte13 (#38)
We can just make shit up and ascribe it to God, if we want to, but when we do that, it's not true.
#40. To: SOSO (#36)
Even Thomas needed tangible proof. Am I less than Thomas in that regard?
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