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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Source: creation.com URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis Published: Nov 15, 2014 Author: creation.com Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82 Keywords: None Views: 86071 Comments: 223 My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10) We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered. "Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish". "I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"! Tas Walker replies: Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be. The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about. There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life. There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve. Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others. In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared. Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises. Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview). This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision). Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children. If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving. In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5 God bless, Tas Walker Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-74) not displayed.       .       .       . #75. To: SOSO (#51) Wouldest your description of redemption be that simple. I was not describing "redemption". Who had to be "redeemed"? Go look at what God actually said. The Israelites - who were later reduced down to just the Jews - had to redeem the firstborn of their children and unclean animals by paying money. The redemption was from offering them to God. From the first Passover onward, God demanded that the firstborn of ISRAEL be offered to God. Redemption meant that the sons of man and of unclean animals like asses could be paid for and not offered. The first born of clean animals had to be offered to God, and that meant by slaughter and fire on the altar. But that was for JEWS. Nowhere did God ever say that the firstborn of all mankind or all animalkind, have to be "redeemed". Redemption has a logic of its own within the Jewish matrix. It never applied to Gentiles. Of course Jesus was speaking to Jews - to Peter, James, John, the 12, the 72, the women - all Jews. And given all of the Torah law and all of the traditions and ritual meanings, the Jews had to understand what Jesus was doing in terms of God's covenant with them. But I'm a Gentile. So are you, probably. God's deal with Gentiles was different from the time of Abraham forward. All of mankind was given a simple law from the time of Noah: don't shed human blood, and if you do, you must repay it blood for blood, don't eat living flesh ("flesh with the lifeblood in it), and don't commit adultery. Those are the only laws of God that are clearly revealed in Genesis, before Abraham. Those are the laws for mankind. There are three of them. Three. That's all. It was Jesus who picked back up the story of law for mankind in general, fleshing it out. The rest of Scripture, from Babel until Bethlehem, is only about the specific relationship of God and two particular people: the descendants of Abraham (from the covenant with Abraham), and then the Hebrews/Israelites (later: Jews) (from the covenant with Moses). And what was the covenant with Abraham? Circumcise yourself, and if your lineal heirs of the body continue to circumcise themselves through the ages, then your heirs will occupy a specific land. That's it. That's the "Law of Abraham", the whole thing. If you're not in lineal descent from Abraham, it doesn't apply to you. If you ARE in lineal descent from Abraham and you're an uncircumcised male, then it doesn't apply to you either. If your a circumcised male descendant of Abraham, then God has promised you the Levantine shore of the Middle East. God fulfilled that covenant. Look at the Levant. Who is there? Jews and Arabs, both circumcised, both descended from Abraham. Then was the Mosaic Covenant. It was here that God gave the rules of animal sacrifice and redemption - FOR ISRAELITES. And what was the covenant, exactly? It was: do all of these things, and - if you're a circumcised descendant of Abraham - you will be prosperous and safe on your own farm in Israel. That's it. That's all. God's covenant with the Hebrews did not speak of eternal life, or redemption from personal sin so that one could go to heaven and have life eternal. There were cleanliness laws, but they pertained to being able to participate in the Temple sacrifices, and nothing more. It was Jesus who brought the message of life after death, final judgment and eternal life. What God had revealed up to that point did not make any of that very clear. That's why the Sadduccees, the hereditary priestly class of Israel, missed it completely. There are hints and there is foreshadowing in the revelation to the Hebrews, but the future of human beings after death is not made plain until Jesus makes it so. When Jesus did that, he did it for the whole world, but his live audience was Jews, and the Apostles were all Jews. Jews had additional things to work out, given the extensive nature of revealed law and ritual that had been given specifically to them. Gentiles never were under the Jewish law in the first place. So, for GENTILES, like me, "redemption" is simple. I'm a first born Gentile son, not a Hebrew. Before Jesus came, the law for me was: don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh and don't commit adultery. I was not a firstborn of Israel, so there was no redemption tax to be paid for me to the Temple. I didn't have to redeem. The animal sacrifices of Israel did not remove the sins of the people to give them everlasting life. They atoned for sin to remove the condemnation for breaking the Mosaic covenant. And recall well the promise of the Mosaic covenant was a farm, on earth, in Israel, for Israelites, and security and prosperity while alive, on that farm. The Mosaic covenant never had anything to do with life after death for Gentiles or for Jews either. That is why fulfilling the Mosaic rituals is so UTTERLY IRRELEVANT for Gentiles, and Jews too. Once Jesus pronounced the doom on the Temple and God tore down the only altar by Roman hands, and then killed and scattered the priesthood, it isn't possible to carry out the terms of the Mosaic covenant even were one to want to, and it wouldn't do any good for anybody other than circumcised lineal descendants of the Hebrews, and the only good it would do them would be to secure them a farm in Israel. In other words, the Old Testament is about a land claim. The only life after death concerning laws for Gentiles in it are: don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, and don't commit adultery. It was Jesus, and only Jesus, who brought a new covenant to the world. He didn't bring it to Israel, and it is not an extension of the Mosaic covenant to the world. To wit: Jesus never promised either Gentile or Jew a farm in Israel. What Jesus promised was life after death and eternal life with God, for individuals only (tribe doesn't count for this). And he gave the whole law. So, now Gentiles and Jews mustn't: Shed human blood, especially murder. Commit adultery or other sexual immorality. Lie. Serve idols. Practice pharmakeia. Be cowards. They must love their neighbor as themselves, and love God above all. If they have sinned, to be forgiven they must forgive. And ritualistically they must get themselves baptized and eat the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus. Both of these things are "just becauses". They're not burdensome, but Jesus said they were necessary, so they are. And that's it. So much, so very much, of the rest of the New Testament is Paul and James and other Jews grappling with how to make the detailed Mosaic covenant they so loved square with the new covenant of Jesus. They really agonized about it, because traditions were so important to them, and they found all sorts of poetic and interesting reflections. But Gentiles have to keep their head. Gentiles don't have to be redeemed, because they were never under the first-born rule in the first place. What Gentiles have to do is follow the simple but rather demanding law, forgive to be forgiven, do the few required rituals, and trust God to carry through on his promises. That's it. There's no promise of a farm, like with the Covenant of Moses. In fact, there's a promise of adversity, in this life. The promised "mansion" comes later, after death. When you stick with God said and just read it, it is pretty straightforward. If as a Gentile you try to turn yourself into a Jew and make the mistake of thinking that the Jewish sacrifices and laws were part of a promise of eternal life, well, they're not, and they never say they are. It isn't that Jesus has come and we're no longer under that law. We weren't under it before either. Jesus has come, so we're under a law if we want to live forever. Jews too. It's the Jews who were released from those laws, by words, and by deeds: God tore down the Temple and wrecked the lineal priesthood, making it impossible to actually carry out the Mosaic covenant anyway. That's really the truth. But it leaves a lot of the Jewish-focused parts of the Bible beside the point. The Gentile message is simpler, because God never made a Constitution for the Gentiles. He actually RULED Israel, so for Israel, only, he had to make laws governing all things. For everybody else, and even Jews in this day and age, there's less law, but a greater reward. The City of God and "the life of eons" is a greater prize than a farm in the Middle East. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   17:05:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc, TooConservative, SOSO, Liberator, Vicomte13 (#67) What was the first English version and can you find any contradictions in it? It was the Bishops Bible or the Geneva Bible I believe. I haven't compared them word for word. But those two and the King James seem to tell the same story. Gary gave a good laydown of this on LP many moons ago. Perhaps if he has time he can lay out for us the number of manuscripts circulating over the past 1900 years, location and other details. I know Vic and TC did some research on this waaay back as well. I pinged them. LOL, Vic had a great thread he responded to when an atheist screed was posted. He basically argued using the author's standard of manuscript evidence would 'prove' Julius Caesar never wrote anything and may not have existed:) AKA, Gary also opined on the JW Bible the NWT as well. SOSO has a proclivity to drop these "translation/transposing" bombs now and then as he did on LP. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12) redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   17:11:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: SOSO (#68) Then why are the some many disagreements on what God said to man? Take transubstantiation, the staus of Mary, the status of saints, to name just a few. That's an easy one. There are those who take the Scriptures for what they say; and there are those who wrest Scriptures to support what they want it to say. Pretty easy. And one only needs to look at the consistency of God's Revelation to mankind from Genesis to Revelation to see that. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12) redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   17:13:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: SOSO (#70) differences in versions that simply lead to disagremment on the nature of the eucarist, for example. Just go to FR. There is a eucharist battle over there every day. A very unproductive one at it. You will get your fill there. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12) redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   17:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: SOSO (#66) Which translation of which version of which interpretation of which translation is the one true Scripture? A translation is but an echo. The Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll texts in Ivrit characters are the Hebrew Scriptures. To the extent that the texts are missing, then a comparison of the Hebrew Leningrad Codex with the Koine Greek Codex Vaticanus gives the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures. A comparison of the Patriarchal Text and the Codex Vaticanus gives the best New Testament text. The one is in ancient Hebrew. The other is in Koine Greek. The best translation of both is the Vulgate Latin, because Jerome had access to massive amounts of ancient manuscript material lost to time, because the Church was not then divided in the way it has become since, because he was a genius, because Latin and Greek were both languages of the same milieu in the same culture, and because Jerome lived in the same Roman Empire as Jesus and the Jews had, with the same laws and cultural references and contexts, and he spoke Greek and Latin as a fluent native speaker. So, he had manuscripts, and he was a native speaker of the Greek he was translating. He compared the Hebrew and the Greek and found the Hebrew HE was looking at to be more persuasive than the Greek. Latin is even closer to us than Greek or Hebrew, but it's still a translation. Truth be told, there are only about 20 words in Scripture upon whose definitions everything turns. If one translates those words wrong, if one mangles the concept being conveyed, then one will come to a decidedly different place from what was actually expressed. Most English translations are reasonably good, if those key words are properly understood. When those words are misunderstood, then wildly different theologies emerge. And the words that matter most are the 8% or so in there directly spoken by God himself, for "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God." The words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God are not many, but they give all the law, and they are the ones you absolutely have to focus on, or you can end up anywhere. What God said in Scripture doesn't conflict, but what men say ABOUT what God said in Scripture often conflicts. Those conflicts are not resolvable by pitting men against men, but they ARE resolvable by going to the words that proceeded forth directly out of the mouth of God. God said altogether less to men than men said ABOUT God to each other. The stuff men said ABOUT God is inspiring and inspired, but it's not LAW. What God said directly: that (and only that) is law. That is where your Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English studies need to focus, and most specifically on those 20 words. Understand what "life" IS, and you understand what is at stake throughout. Miss that, and you're flailing around trying to figure out how all of those various purity laws of the Jews, so important for their society as God constituted it, apply to you and me...and unfortunately you've only God Jews like Paul and John and James and Peter to guide you on those matters, and they focus on them in ways that resolve problems within Judaism that Gentiles don't have in the first place. The purpose should never be to find ways to quibble with fellow Christians, but rather, to discern just what precisely God said. And then do THAT. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   17:21:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: SOSO, TooConservative, Liberator, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#70) And therein lies the nature of my question, who got it right? This certainly fuels the fire, the temptation, to say that they are all full of it. And certainly to suspicion of the guy that tries to sell you that his version is the one and only true Word of God. Who got it right? Well Jesus Christ did of course! Luke 24: 25 Then He said to them,“O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. ................ 44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” Then this as well with the Apostle Paul summarizing the importance of focusing on the Gospel of Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 15: 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12) redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   17:24:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, Liberator, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#80) Who got it right? Well Jesus Christ did of course! Was that the sound of a huge punt that I just heard? "Then this as well with the Apostle Paul summarizing the importance of focusing on the Gospel of Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 15: 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain." Did Paul preach transubstantiation? Did he preach the infallibility of the Pope? Did he teach that Gensis was to be taken literally as historical fact? Do I need to go on? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   17:40:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: Vicomte13 (#79) Truth be told, there are only about 20 words in Scripture upon whose definitions everything turns. If one translates those words wrong, if one mangles the concept being conveyed, then one will come to a decidedly different place from what was actually expressed. Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   17:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: SOSO (#65) I don't understand what you are asking. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe that mortal man can know the Mind of God? No, not unless God directly allows him to, which I don't think has happened yet other than with respect to Christ's human nature. Well, that's a matter of context. Do we know what God expects of us? YES. He teaches love, kindness, honesty, honor -- all the virtues...and draws us nearer to Him (if we listen to Him more and less to our own narcissitic voice.) Do we know His exact Plan for us individually, or exactly how our respective lives play out? NO. I'm sure others will be more articulte on answering your questions, or addressing faith issues. Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   17:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: redleghunter (#73) We were created to Glorify God. God provided a plan of redemption and salvation no only to bring us back to Him, but more importantly to Glorify Him. Excellent. Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   17:45:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: Liberator (#83) He teaches love, kindness, honesty, honor Too many fail to heed and embrace God's word. yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   17:46:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: yukon (#85) You would know. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-01-15   17:49:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: TooConservative (#86) You would know. Yes, I have closely observed your posts. yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   17:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: A K A Stone (#71) People have told me they have seen contradictions in the King James version. Sometimes people say there are. But I haven't seen anything myself. I could show you. But they're all the same. There's what God said, and then there's what men say ABOUT God. What the men say sometimes contradicts God, and sometimes contradicts each other. What God said is pretty straightforward. The most glaring apparent contradiction in what God said comes in three parts. Jesus said that not a penstroke of the Torah would change until heaven and earth ended. In the Torah, God gave the rules for divorce. But Jesus said that it was Moses who wrote that, "due to the hardness of your hearts", and that it was not so in the beginning. Then Jesus laid down a law that said that he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. This is a nest of contradictions. If we penetrate the translations to the Greek, the contradiction remains. KJV, NIV, NAB, ASV, Greek manuscript, Hebrew, Vulgate - doesn't matter what you use, the contradiction is there, and it's a vital one, because before Jesus God only gave three laws directly to Gentiles in the Scripture, and one of those was against adultery. And Jesus, at the end of the Bible, twice says that adulterers fail judgment and are thrown into the lake of fire. The last word on what CONSTITUTES adultery is: he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. Indeed, he who looks upon a woman with lust in his heart commits adultery. Divorce and remarriage is adultery, Jesus said, and adulterers fail judgment and are thrown into the Lake of Fire, Jesus said twice on the last two pages of the Bible - indeed, those are among God's very last words in Scripture, after everybody else has had their say. We should note that very well, because all of the letters of the Apostles come before Revelation, John is the last of them, so God Himself has the LAST word on all of it. Logically, one would think that where there is tension (and there is), that God's taking the last word would settle it. Indeed, one would think (logically), that wherever God speaks in Scripture, that trumps everything else, and that if God changes a rule later that he made earlier, that the later rule stands. That's the only logical answer, but men don't like that answer, because the Jesus of Revelation in God's final words to man gives a law that is stricter than men would like. So men - Gentiles like Jews before them - rather prefer to go back to something said earlier in the text and make THAT the rule. That doesn't make sense. Anyway, take your KJV and look at what Moses says about divorce, what Jesus says about the law of Moses, and then what Jesus says about divorce. This isn't a reversal, there is a contradiction there. "You can divorce." "Not a word will change until the world ends." "If you divorce, you commit adultery, and adultery will cause you to fail judgment." That's a violent change, and a violent contradiction. And that's why the Christian Churches all have contradictory teachings on divorce - it isn't just that men WANT to divorce (and they do), but it's because the text appears to contradict. The contradiction is obvious. Now I'll tell you why it's not there. In Genesis, God puts man and women together as one flesh. He nearly kills Abimelek, and he sickens Pharaoh's household, because of adultery or the near commission of it with Sarai, Abram's wife. Then God gives Moses the law allowing divorce in the Torah. Stop: fact check. What law has God given to the world here? Man and woman form one flesh, don't commit adultery. Now, God gave a law to the Jews - only - permitting them to divorce. Jesus comes and says that the law given to the Jews will remain until the world ends. Ok, so the law does not change. Jews could divorce. But he gives the law for the world (which would be the 99% of humanity who are NOT Jews, that reminds everybody of marriage as originally constituted: one flesh, and Jesus makes it clear that sundering it is adultery. So there's the law for the world, and then there's tension regarding the Jews. But then in the last week Jesus pronounces the doom of Israel. When God established Israel under Moses, he warned them through Moses that if they FOLLOWED all his laws, they would get their farm in Israel, but if they DIDN'T, they would be destroyed and driven out. Jesus in his last week pronounced sentence on Israel: complete destruction of the Temple. Now, God's law was very clear: the Jewish rites MUST be carried out, they can ONLY be carried out by Aaronic priests, and they can only be carried out on the one altar. God destroyed the Temple and the altar, and ended Israel. So, the LAW is indeed left intact, unchanged, but the Israel for which the law was made was destroyed by God forever because part of the law threatened just that for disobedience. And Jesus said that thereafter, that now, the only path for anybody was HIM. So, on paper there's that Torah, and it is as it was written, and we can all see it with its rules, including the softer rule for Israel under God's law that permitted divorce (and thereby permitted it in Israel without bringing the doom on Israel). But Israel brought the doom on itself for breaking all sorts of other laws, and God's doom was irrevocable. No Temple, no priesthood, no sacrifices, the law is not fulfilled, and the WHOLE law has to be fulfilled or Israel stays doomed. In fact, God never said after Jesus pronounced the doom that if the Jews just went back to the Torah they would have Israel reconstituted and get their farm back. Quite the opposite! Jews would have to follow the whole Torah AND follow Jesus as Son of God, or they would remain under the ban. They didn't and don't. So the LAW is still there, but there's nobody to follow it and no nation to be rewarded FOR following it. And remember well: the promise for obeying the whole Torah wasn't everlasting life, it was a prosperous farm in Israel while you lived. So, what's left of Moses' law of divorce? It's there in the books, an allowance, but Jesus made it clear that God's law for the world is no divorce, that divorce and remarriage are adultery, and that adulterers are thrown into the fire. So, that's the law, clear and unambiguous, and that's been what marriage has been since the beginning: one man, one woman, once. This, then, leads to the question: What if I have fucked up and committed adultery, either by sleeping outside of wedlock, or divorcing and remarrying? Failing judgment would seem inevitable, because Jesus said that's the lot of adulterers. What hope, then? Well, Jesus really only gave one: forgive. He said that those who forgive will be forgiven. Adultery is a deadly sin. Divorce and remarriage is adultery. And as long as it lasts, it would appear to continue to be adultery. Maybe there really is no hope for adulterers in this situation other than divorcing their new wives and assuming a position of celibacy or returning to their only true wives. Or perhaps by being endlessly forgiving of others, following Jesus' instructions, people in that circumstance will be forgiven by God also, as Jesus' promised. We should recall that the Samaritan woman at the well had been married four times and was living with a man who wasn't her husband. Truth is: the Scriptures do not tell you the clear answer. There are logical bars to EVERY path one might take. They get worse when you start adding in what Paul and James and Jude and John and Peter had to say on top of it. If you stick with what God had to say, God's LAST WORD on the matter is that adulterers don't enter the City of God and are thrown into the fire. There are hundreds of millions of people who reject Jesus in the Scriptures on this matter, and choose to believe traditions and logic of their own making. But even if one sticks to the Bible, truth is, the subject is a MESS without a clear answer. But there is a LAST answer, and twice repeated, and that's that adulterers are thrown into the fire. And there's an example of a welter of contradictions within the Scriptures on a core matter. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:03:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: redleghunter (#78) Just go to FR. There is a eucharist battle over there every day. A very unproductive one at it. You will get your fill there. I have had my fill a long time ago. The problem is that there is no way to get past the fact of the evolution of so many so-called Christian sects with sudstantial disagreement on what Scripture actually says, much less means. As you said, it is an unproductive debate. One either has faith or one doesn't. One either believes that every word in Scripture must be literally taken as historical fact (which led some of the faithful to believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old) or one does not (but still have an abiding faith in God and Jesus Christ as their Savior). Then there are some of the faithful that believe all go to Heaven. There are even some of the faithful that don't know what to believe for sure about Scripture. I am much more persuaded by the notion of one knowing God and Jesus through their heart, through the gift of faith bestowed upon us by God Himself as opposed to knowing Him solely through Scripture. My dear Ole Ram, we have been down this road before. I am still searching for answers which I know in my mind I know that I will never receive in this life. However this does not detract from my belief in God and belief that He makes His presence in my life known to me - as He would do for anyone that seeks it. IMO religion, churches just get in the way of the realtionship between God and Man. We do not need a flawed human institution to act as a middleman. I have enough personal flaws to satisfy that condition. And we don't need a made made channel to Him to realize what He already made available to us at birth. I do not criticize those that feel that they need a helping hand to realize their relationship with God. To the extent that Churches do that all well and good. I just remind you that we are redeemed individually, one soul at a time not as a commuinty where it is all in or all out. SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#88) Stone please meet Vicomte13. Articulate little devil, ain't he? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:08:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: Liberator (#83) Do we know what God expects of us? YES. I would almost universally agree with that. There still are those true moral delimenas in which we as mortal men must make a choice between two conflicing moral actions, aka as the lesser of evils. IMO that is why God has endowed man with both free will and a conscience. Men seem to be willing to more freely exercise the former over the latter. Humans can rationalize just about anything if they turn down the volume of that inner Godly voice. SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:15:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: SOSO (#82) Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say? No. God said what he said. That men wrote down a bunch of words all around it and that other men hold the different sources of authority as being equal, when they are not, is not sloppy of God at all. GOD said "Man lives by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God." And what is more, when it comes to those few decisive words, God not only used the words, but the words are written in ancient Hebrew Ivrit PICTOGRAPHS, which don't just convey sound but meaning. So we can read the meaning, hearing the meaning and SEE the meaning corroborated by the pictures. God didn't really say all that much - only 8% of Scripture, and if you eliminate all of the ritualistic stuff that God said to the Hebrews that don't apply to anybody, it drops to less than 1%. Usually things are repeated three or four times, so that distills down to about 0.25% of the words in the Scriptures. If there are 2000 pages in the Bible, there are about 4 pages of original, directive law that apply to everybody, and just about everybody already knows that law anyway, because it's not just written on the pages - in triplicate or sextuplicate, but because it's written in everybody's conscience, as we are each a separate breath of God (breath is spirit). None of this is meant to trivialize the wisdom of what is contained in the longer canon. Still, for somebody like you, who sees a welter of confusion and contradiction, I think it is important to realize these things: (1) God left about 100 tangible objects that are miracles of physics, and that are clearly Christian in nature. And he left precisely 0 miraculous objects that are any other religion in nature, or secular in nature. So, through your physics, chemistry and biological training you CAN, if you are willing to apply the effort, come to a purely intellectual knowledge of the existence of God, and the divinity of Jesus. This is demonstrable by the physics and does not require a leap of belief beyond believing that our physics are largely accurate and useful, and that the data you have been given is not itself all tricked and hoaxy. (2) With knowledge certain of God, and of the divinity of Christ, you can look at what it is recorded that God said - and you can see God saying in his own words to listen to HIS words. So then if you go through Scripture, you'll have about 160 pages. You'll see its repetitive and be able to distill it down to 4 applicable pages, in any translation. (3) With those four pages, you can then delve into the Hebrew and Greek for the key words about which all meaning hangs: "God", "spirit", "life", "eternal", "good", "bad", "love", "law", "soul", "follow". (4) After this exercise, you'll know the law, and you'll know that it's: Don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, don't commit sexual immorality (including adultery or other vile or abominable practices), don't lie, don't practice pharmakeia, don't serve idols, and don't be a coward. If you do those things, you'll be thrown into the fire and fail judgment. If you don't, you'll pass judgment. If you've done some of those things but follow Jesus by stopping doing them, and forgiving others their sins against you, God will forgive you. If you don't believe that Jesus is divine, you won't in fact stop doing the bad things or forgive, and you won't love, unless Jesus sends God's spirit to you anyway. In this way, it's Jesus who saves all whom he saves, regardless of the differences in their view of him. (5) Life can be long, so practice loving living, in Christ's model, and you will have your reward from God in the City of God and in Paradise after death, and maybe on earth too. And that's all there is to it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:19:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: All (#90) I find this thread very interesting And I agree with so much that is said here by so many of you I too believe God is love I do believe God created us with a channel between Creator and His creation So He can always be in communication with us and we can always be in communication with Him Edgar Cayce, the great psychic, had prophesied back in the 1930s that by the year 2000 everyone would be in personal communication with God The date turned out to be off But every year now more and more are in personal communication with God I know each of us have our own beliefs and what is right for one to believe, could be wrong for another So these are just my own beliefs They are right for me, but could be wrong for another Each of us knows for ourself what is best for us to believe IMHO Love Palo Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   18:37:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #94. To: Vicomte13 (#92) Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say? No. God said what he said. That men wrote down a bunch of words all around it and that other men hold the different sources of authority as being equal, when they are not, is not sloppy of God at all. You mean those at the Council of Nicaea? Those men? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #95. To: All (#93) I like free will I think that is a great gift God gave us I have made gazillion wrong choices for myself using my free will But free will also gives us the freedom to change our mind And I have changed my mind about so many things Love Palo Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   18:45:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #96. To: SOSO (#89) IMO religion, churches just get in the way of the realtionship between God and Man. And yet, it is organized religion that preserved the artifacts (for the Thomases who really need the physical proof), and it is organized religion that also preserved the words that God said and brought them down through the ages, and it is organized religion that has taught the basics to generation after generation. Without organization we wouldn't have any of those things unless God preserved them all by more direct physics-bending miracles. Now, I never spontaneously talk about what God and I talked about when I talked with God, but here, I will if only to clarify something. He and I did not discuss Jesus and angels or religion. We talked about physics. And the core lesson - the revelation - is that things are as they are, the physics work as they do, because God set them up the way he likes them. "I work on nature through nature" is what he said when I asked for probative miracles, and he grabbed ME and caused ME to directly do, with my hands, what it is I was demanding HE do. That I was not in control was clear, but he didn't use "force at a distance" - he possessed my flesh directly and made my flesh do what I had demanded in the normal way that I would otherwise were I not talking to God. So, God has left physics defying miracles in order to provide the proof for the Thomases, but he hasn't left a ton of them, and he doesn't lightly go against his own opinion. He does it for a reason. Jesus didn't set up a Bible dispensary. He set up a church, that passed down the essence by word of mouth. And although God COULD have done the miracles any way he choose, he chose to give the lesson of life after death by the most bloody and horrible death at the hands of the most powerful authorities: the Temple of the Jews and the spears of the Romans - using their full power to mete out death, by which they removed all those opposed. And then God brushed the death aside with life again - mocking the power of the religious court, the high priest, the executioner's nails and spears, the governor and the Roman Empire itself. But he didn't keep on doing that over and over. He is sparing in his miracle- making. So, COULD he have done without Churches and men and word-of-mouth and tradition, and held it all up by miracle? Of course. But he didn't. And perhaps he didn't because he made it such that to be rewarded with a good life after death you have to follow him, and he said that following him MEANT carrying out certain things, including carrying forth his message. He imposed the need to keep writing it and repeating it, and in the face of adversity too. You want to live forever? You want immortality? Imagine if a technology could be devised to give that - would it be available to all, or would it be jealously and violently guarded by the men who had possession of it? There is such a technology: it is called the Christian religion, and God makes it such that you cannot have the greatest prize: immortality, unless you do what you do not want to do, and TRUST him and follow him and do what he said. Do it, and you get the prize (before, it was do it, and you get a farm in Israel). Refuse to, or don't, and you also live, but it's not very nice. Sort of like choosing to study, or not, in high school and college. Your choice. Consequences to follow... Now then, God forced men to have to be the ones to carry forward the message, in written forms and through repeating it, and to guard the artifacts - and often at risk or pain to themselves. And he said that COWARDS are thrown into the fire: if you want to keep your life, you will lose it, he said. In other words: It's his way or the highway...to Hell. Given that we're made in his image, we understand this perfectly well, for our own characters are not all that different. We get it. We just don't like it. So we kick at it. I think that men such as you should start first with the basics: look at the physics of the physical artifacts. God left those to PROVE IT. Once proved, then you realize that "faith" doesn't mean "belief", it means TRUST. You knew God was there before, and now you REALLY know it, for sure, because you can't escape the science of the artifacts. And now the dog's breakfast continues, because then you're faced with: alright, what do you WANT? He might answer you directly. More probably he'll just point you towards something ELSE you don't want to do, which is to have to learn what he said from OTHER people. Note that he made baptism a REQUIREMENT for passing final judgment and entering the City of God...and baptism can only be done TO you. You can't baptize yourself. The fact that God made baptism a requirement for life in the City with him means that God forced every man to depend on another Christian person for his salvation, because a man cannot baptize himself. So, Jesus FORCES every single man who wants to be saved to pass through one short, stupid ritual that can only be performed ON him by ANOTHER Christian, thereby making the salvation of every man dependent not just on God alone, but on another MAN being willing to give baptism. It's a non-trivial requirement - that human salvation cannot be achieved without the direct agency of another human being. No man can save himself, for Jesus said that baptism was necessary, and even HE insisted that John the Baptist had to baptize him, demonstrating that Jesus Christ did not baptize himself. Now, would Jesus have been resurrected had no man baptized him? Not according to Jesus himself. God set things up to REQUIRE men to pass through at least one ritual of organized religion with another man. The man who is too proud to do that is damned. Man requires God for salvation. But every man also requires another man for his salvation, for no man is saved without baptism, and even Jesus did not baptize himself. Like it or not, SOME degree of organized religion is, in fact, absolutely necessary for the salvation of every man. Salvation requires the agency of another Christian human. No baptism, no eternal life. It's repetitive, but guess what? God repeats most things three times in the Bible too, at least. Know why? Because human beings need to hear things three times to really retain them. God is no fun. He likes things a certain way, and for men to have the prize, they have to submit to doing it his way. If they won't, they piss him off, he kills them, raises them, and then they know, and then he throws them into the fire because he doesn't like them. And why should he? He has left the hard proof. If men choose to be stubborn and lie and say he hasn't, that's their own damned fault. And he's left the instructions of what not to do, and what to do, and they're not long. If men choose to be stubborn and blow him off, he's said what they've got coming. And he carries things out just like that, because God likes his own opinion, and he's going to do it that way, and you (and I) are just not important enough to him for him to change his mind about anything. We can stamp our feet all we like - we die anyway. We CAN live forever, but we have to CHOOSE to. And truth is, mostly, the world doesn't WANT to be saved. So God gives them their wish, and they're not. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:46:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #97. To: SOSO (#94) You mean those at the Council of Nicaea? Those men? I was thinking of Paul and James, actually, but sure, the men of Nicaea also. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:47:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #98. To: Liberator (#83) Do we know what God expects of us? YES. He teaches love, kindness, honesty, honor -- all the virtues...and draws us nearer to Him (if we listen to Him more and less to our own narcissitic voice.) Do we know His exact Plan for us individually, or exactly how our respective lives play out? NO. I agree with you Liberator I see it this way too Love Palo Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   18:48:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #99. To: Palo Verde (#93) Edgar Cayce, the great psychic, had prophesied back in the 1930s that by the year 2000 everyone would be in personal communication with God Hi Palo! It has been a long time since I've seen you post. Hope you are well. Everyone has an opportunity to communicate with God. Individuals can either take advantage or decline. I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline. yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   18:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #100. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#89) Just go to FR. There is a eucharist battle over there every day. "When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #101. To: Vicomte13 (#92) If there are 2000 pages in the Bible, there are about 4 pages of original, directive law that apply to everybody, and just about everybody already knows that law anyway, because it's not just written on the pages - That's an awful lot of bloviating by the men the inked the Bible. "Still, for somebody like you, who sees a welter of confusion and contradiction, I think it is important to realize these things: The only confusion that I see is what has been put there by man, not God. You admit as much but take a lot more words to to it. "Don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, don't commit sexual immorality (including adultery or other vile or abominable practices), don't lie, don't practice pharmakeia, don't serve idols, and don't be a coward. If you do those things, you'll be thrown into the fire and fail judgment. So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed. BTW, I had to look up the word pharmakeia:) Is aspirin included? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:55:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #102. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#100) "When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss With green eggs and ham no doubt. SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:56:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #103. To: yukon, Palo Verde (#99) I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline. Perhaps it's because they don't like what He has to say about the choices they make in life? Perhaps they believe they communicate better when they are high on drugs or booze and therefor substitute those for God? Or perhaps it is becuase they believe that there is nothing greater than themself? Just some random thoughts. BTW, hello to both of you. It has been a long time since I have seen a post from either. Hope all is well. SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:00:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #104. To: ALL (#0) IS JESUS A LIAR? When we turn to the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels, we find a wealth of relevant material in all four Gospels and in the four major strata of the synoptic Gospels (Mark; the material peculiar to Matthew; the material peculiar to Luke; and the material common to Matthew and Luke, usually called "Q"). We are not confined to a few key statements but have a host of quotations and allusions that appear in a great variety of situations. These accounts are often the more telling since they reveal Jesus' basic assumptions more than His specific teachings. We can hear Christ preaching to the multitudes and instructing disciples, refuting opponents and answering enquirers. We can hear Him in His private conflict with the tempter at the beginning of His ministry and in His final instructions prior to the Ascension. As we proceed, it will become clear that, throughout the Gospel material, Jesus' view of the Old Testament is un-changing. We will examine, in turn, His views of the truth of its history, the authority of its teaching, and the inspiration of its writing. As the evidence is assembled, it will lead us to a firm and objective conclusion. We will see that Christ held the Old Testament to be historically true, completely authoritative, and divinely inspired. To Him, the God of the Old Testament was the living God, and the teaching of the Old Testament was the teaching of the living God. To Him, what Scripture said, God said. Jesus consistently treats Old Testament historical narratives as straightforward records of fact. He refers to Abel (Luke 11:51), Noah (Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 17:26, 27), Abraham (John 8:56), the institution of circumcision (John 7:22; cf. Gen. 17:10-12; Lev. 12:3), Sodom and Gomorrah (Matt. 10:15; 11:23, 24; Luke 10:12), Lot (Luke 17:28-32), Isaac and Jacob (Matt. 8:11; Luke 13:28), manna (John 6:31, 49, 58), the snake in the desert (John 3: 14), David eating the consecrated bread (Matt. 12:3, 4; Mark 2:25, 26; Luke 6:3, 4), David as a psalm writer (Matt. 22:43; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42), Solomon (Matt. 6:29; 12:42; Luke 11:31; 12:27), Elijah (Luke 4:25, 26), Elisha (Luke 4:27), Jonah (Matt. 12:39-41; Luke 11:29, 30, 32), and Zechariah (Luke 11:51). The last passage brings out Jesus' sense of the unity of history and His grasp of its wide sweep. His eye surveys the whole course of history from "the creation of the world" to "this generation." He repeatedly refers to Moses as the giver of the Law (Matt. 8:4; 19:8; Mark 1:44; 7:10; 10:5; 12:26; Luke 5:14; 20:37; John 5:46; 7:19). He frequently mentions the sufferings of the true prophets (Matt. 5:12; 13:57; 21:34-36; 23:29-37; Mark 6:4 [cf. Luke 4:24; John 4:44]; 12:2-5; Luke 6:23; 11:47-51; 13:34; 20:10-12) and comments on the popularity of the false prophets (Luke 6:26). He sets the stamp of His approval on such significant passages as Genesis 1 and 2 (Matt. 19:4, 5; Mark 10:6-8). These quotations are taken by our Lord more or less at random from different parts of the Old Testament, and some periods of its history are covered more fully than others. Yet it is evident that He was familiar with most, if not all, of the Old Testament and that He treated all parts of it equally as history. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #105. To: SOSO (#103) perhaps it is becuase they believe that there is nothing greater than themself? I believe you could be on to something with that observation. Hello to you. I'm assuming we have crossed paths previously. Hope all is well with you. yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   19:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #106. To: GarySpFC (#104) So the Earth really is a few thousand years old? SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #107. To: yukon (#105) I'm assuming we have crossed paths previously. We have on LP. SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:07:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #108. To: SOSO (#106) So the Earth really is a few thousand years old? Where did Jesus say that? “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #109. To: SOSO (#101) So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. No shedding of blood, or eating living flesh, or serving idols. Probably many have met those conditions. No sexual immorality? I doubt that there are any normal, healthy people who have not committed sexual immorality. So that's that, then. Without forgiveness by God, everybody but autistic vegetables and cripples gets thrown into the fire because all human beings are normal sexually immoral at some point. No lying? That catches anybody who says he's never been sexually immoral. Don't be a coward? Cowardice leads to lies and to the shedding of blood, so it's part of a process. Aspirin is not pharmakeia: it doesn't significantly alter the mind. Coffee isn't either. Tobacco is bad for you, but it's not pharmakeia. Alcohol isn't, but it's in its own category - necessary for salvation (gotta drink the blood), but necessary to limit. I suppose it's like sex - with your wife: good. With every woman on the street, or with one donkey: bad. If you can't drive under its influence, it's probably pharmakeia. Of course, it's not simply use, it's use to alter the mind, let in the demons...or offering it for sale to do that. Still, it's a quibble. Dealing in death-dealing drugs will get you damned. The prohibitions on sexual immorality and lying probably devour all of healthy humanity. So, we're all doomed to death for our sins. And guess what - we all die! Crime...punishment. THEN what? Well, that's the issue. Death CAN be the punishment that cuts it off: sentenced to death for sin and executed by God - for the wage of sin is death, but life of the spirit goes on, and you get another body someday...which promptly gets judged and killed AGAIN, unless you are forgiven the sin. There is debate among men as to how. There shouldn't be, because Jesus SAID how. God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is). If you don't stop doing it, once you know you should (and we know we should from the beginning, because God gave us all a conscience), if you persist until death - prognosis not good. Step 2 is: forgive other people. You're forgiven, by God, for your offenses against him, to the extent that you forgive others' offenses against you. The extent you refuse to do that, you're not forgiven either. Also, we ought to remember that the status in the City of God of everybody who passes judgment is not the same. There are the least in "Heaven" (really the City). They're THERE, but they're the least. It's better than the lake of fire, but still... Strive for better and you can have better. Or do the minimum and sweep the streets. It's better than burning. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   19:27:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #110. To: GarySpFC (#104) Hello Gary. Happy New Year. Good to see you here. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   19:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #111. To: yukon (#99) Hi Palo! It has been a long time since I've seen you post. Hope you are well. Everyone has an opportunity to communicate with God. Individuals can either take advantage or decline. I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline. Hi Yukon I am happy to see you I was an atheist till my early 40s when my life hit bottom LOL at the end of my rope I called out for help from God (nothing else had worked) Then my next crisis was a few years later, when vet pronounced death sentence on my beloved dog (she was my first dog) First I turned to God for help, then to Jesus I was able to hear both God and Jesus talking to me in my mind Loving me, comforting me, reassuring me Even tho my beloved dog did go to Heaven 4 months later I wasn't willing to give up all that love and help But I only called upon Jesus and God when I was having a terrible crisis The next 4 years brought so many crises into my life that I had a chance to call on them many times After that I decided to stay in personal communication with Jesus and God even when things were fine LOL but I only stayed in communication 24/7 when another crisis hit I guess that help is always available to all It is up to each individual how much they want it? LOL I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help I love you Palo Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   19:29:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #112. To: Vicomte13 (#110) Hello Gary. Happy New Year. Good to see you here. Likewise. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #113. To: Palo Verde (#111) I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help All of us do, but few of us willingly admit it. Apparently you and I have traversed some of the same rough waters. God bless you. yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   19:36:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #114. To: yukon (#113) (Palo) I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help (Yukon)... Apparently you and I have traversed some of the same rough waters. God bless you. Thank you my darling God bless you too It is a miracle you and I are talking to each other on a forum again I haven't been on a forum in 5 years But it hit me hard when LP shut down And TC instantly invited me over here And I am very happy here now Love and kisses, Palo Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   19:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #115. To: SOSO (#19) I totally concur. Mortal Man can never undrestand the Mind of God, much less the nature of the Infinite. That is why every version, every interpretation of the Bible is flawed. The very essence of language is a man made concept. God doesn't need language. In fact if you liereally believe the Bible, God created different languages to confound Man long before any Christian Bible was ever put into writting. If man cannot understand God, then accordingly His sending Christ to die on that old rugged cross was without purpose. If language is a man made concept, then God does not think. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (116 - 223) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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