[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"International court’s attack on Israel a sign of the free world’s moral collapse"

"Pete Hegseth Is Right for the DOD"

"Why Our Constitution Secures Liberty, Not Democracy"

Woodworking and Construction Hacks

"CNN: Reporters Were Crying and Hugging in the Hallways After Learning of Matt Gaetz's AG Nomination"

"NEW: Democrat Officials Move to Steal the Senate Race in Pennsylvania, Admit to Breaking the Law"

"Pete Hegseth Is a Disruptive Choice for Secretary of Defense. That’s a Good Thing"

Katie Britt will vote with the McConnell machine

Battle for Senate leader heats up — Hit pieces coming from Thune and Cornyn.

After Trump’s Victory, There Can Be No Unity Without A Reckoning

Vivek Ramaswamy, Dark-horse Secretary of State Candidate

Megyn Kelly has a message for Democrats. Wait for the ending.

Trump to choose Tom Homan as his “Border Czar”

"Trump Shows Demography Isn’t Destiny"

"Democrats Get a Wake-Up Call about How Unpopular Their Agenda Really Is"

Live Election Map with ticker shows every winner.

Megyn Kelly Joins Trump at His Final PA Rally of 2024 and Explains Why She's Supporting Him

South Carolina Lawmaker at Trump Rally Highlights Story of 3-Year-Old Maddie Hines, Killed by Illegal Alien

GOP Demands Biden, Harris Launch Probe into Twice-Deported Illegal Alien Accused of Killing Grayson Davis

Previously-Deported Illegal Charged With Killing Arkansas Children’s Hospital Nurse in Horror DUI Crash

New Data on Migrant Crime Rates Raises Eyebrows, Alarms

Thousands of 'potentially fraudulent voter registration applications' Uncovered, Stopped in Pennsylvania

Michigan Will Count Ballot of Chinese National Charged with Voting Illegally

"It Did Occur" - Kentucky County Clerk Confirms Voting Booth 'Glitch'' Shifted Trump Votes To Kamala

Legendary Astronaut Buzz Aldrin 'wholeheartedly' Endorses Donald Trump

Liberal Icon Naomi Wolf Endorses Trump: 'He's Being More Inclusive'

(Washed Up Has Been) Singer Joni Mitchell Screams 'F*** Trump' at Hollywood Bowl

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source: creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 86130
Comments: 223

My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 139.

#1. To: CZ82 (#0)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

A K A Stone  posted on  2014-11-15   22:03:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A K A Stone (#1)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

There is an answer to your question, and I am willing to answer it for you.

There is a completely different way to read the Bible.

The traditional way, which came out of traditional Catholic and Orthodox thinking, itself came out of traditional Jewish thinking. After all, all 12 Apostles and Paul were Middle Eastern Jews, from the land of Israel and its environs, by birth and culture. Jesus was too, of course, but he is different because of who his Father was and the special knowledge and power he had.

The traditional way of seeing it saw the Christian Church as the continuation of the Jewish revelation. While this is certainly true, the key features of it where that the Apostles and the traditionalists did not simply valorize the revelations of God, but also the particular historical and cultural achievements of Israel. They understood God's plan of salvation in a certain way.

To follow the traditional thread of thinking, God made man, man fell, and this fall, this original sin, left an imprint of sin on the character of each man. Because of this sin, man could not attain heaven after death. In order to save man, eventually, God chose one people, the Hebrews, and gave them The Law. The Jews waxed and waned, and did not follow the law perfectly. So God sent Jesus to bring the whole world into salvation. Under the Jewish law, the blood of animals released sin, but could not completely release a man of all of his sins. But with Jesus, baptism wipes away original sin, and the blood of Christ's sacrifice is the final, perfect lamb of the Jewish sacrificial cycle, which takes away the sins of the whole world (and not just the Jews). So, through adoption, the world are all Messianic Jews. The reason for Jesus, under the traditional view, is to redeem us from our sins as laid out under the Jewish law. The assumption is that a perfect adherence to the Jewish Law would have led to salvation, but nobody could do it, and so Jesus was sent to do it for everybody.

That's the traditional view, and that view depends on the existence of Adam and Eve as literally described in order to establish the Original Sin that needs to be wiped away.

That's the traditional read and understanding. It's what Paul understood he was doing.

There is a very different way to read the same text. It too arrives at the necessity of Jesus, doing what Jesus did, with the ultimate net result, but which understands what happened along the way, and the role of the Jews in it, very differently.

It takes some time to write out, and engenders tremendous hostility among those who see things through the traditional lens, so I'm not too terrible eager to spend the time to write it out and then get beaten upon. Unfortunately the beatings will happen, because writing out what others believe without criticizing it leaves the impression that one advocates that, because people become furious at anything they perceive as a challenge to their traditional beliefs.

If you really want to understand how people of good faith and sincerity can think Jesus is vital to salvation without accepting the Adam and Eve or Flood stories as literal, I am willing to go ahead and write it out. But I'm not too eager to deal myself a crap sandwich, and that's what experience tells me I'm going to get if I start actually talking about these things.

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-17   11:12:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Sure go for it. You are a man of honor.

But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-13   14:59:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#7)

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Sure go for it. You are a man of honor.

But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above.

Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   11:10:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#23)

Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.

Thanks, I believe that this will be a worhwhile endeavor for the interested.

May I suggest two therads be started: Why Genesis? and Just Genesis. The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man, the latter the biblical account of Genesis as historical fact and/or meaning. Obvioulsy both why and how of creation have an impact on how one views and accepts the teachings of the Bible. Frankly I expect that the former thread would have a very short existenace as the bottom line is no-one knows why God rolled up His sleves in a creation mode.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   17:54:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: SOSO (#27)

The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man

God is Love my friend.

1 John 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-14   17:59:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: redleghunter (#28)

God is Love my friend.

No doubt in my mind, among other things. But that doesn't explain why He created Man. Did He need someone to love? Did He need someone to love Him? Did He need the physical Universe to play in? Or for His children to play in? Does God need anything?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   18:06:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: SOSO, redleghunter, Bob Celeste, Don, GarySpFc (#29)

But that [God = Love] doesn't explain why He created Man.

Did He need someone to love?

Did He need someone to love Him?

Did He need the physical Universe to play in?

Or for His children to play in? Does God need anything?

Again, as a mere mortal, how can THE Plan of the Infinite Almighty God be analyzed for motivation? By mortal standards of reason and rationale no less.

We DO know the following: GOD IS LOVE. GOD IS JUST. And GOD HAS A PLAN. The Lord Has given man an inate Free Will with which to seek out and draw closer to Him, stand pat, or fold and completely reject Him.

Are you in?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   12:42:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Liberator, redleghunter, Bob Celeste, Don, GarySpFc (#56)

Again, as a mere mortal, how can THE Plan of the Infinite Almighty God be analyzed for motivation? By mortal standards of reason and rationale no less.

Bingo. All of my questions are about mortal attributes. If God in fact does need anything then He wouldn't be God, would He?

And yes, free will is a bitch.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   12:51:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: SOSO (#57)

Bingo. All of my questions are about mortal attributes. If God in fact does need anything then He wouldn't be God, would He?

Yes. You've walked into THE Paradox. I realize your questions are more rhetorical in nature, but some folks still somehow expect ANY of your questions about The Almighty's nature to be answered with surety.

Free will is a bitch.

Can be, can't it? Could also be a blessing. "To be or not to be...."

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   12:58:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Liberator (#58)

Yes. You've walked into THE Paradox

More like embraced it with eyes wide open.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   13:00:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: SOSO (#59)

More like embraced it [The Paradox] with eyes wide open.

What does that mean?

One foot in, one out?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   13:11:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Liberator (#63)

What does that mean?

One foot in, one out?

I don't understand what you are asking. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe that mortal man can know the Mind of God? No, not unless God directly allows him to, which I don't think has happened yet other than with respect to Christ's human nature.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   13:41:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: SOSO (#65)

I don't understand what you are asking. Do I believe in God? Yes.

Do I believe that mortal man can know the Mind of God? No, not unless God directly allows him to, which I don't think has happened yet other than with respect to Christ's human nature.

Well, that's a matter of context.

Do we know what God expects of us? YES. He teaches love, kindness, honesty, honor -- all the virtues...and draws us nearer to Him (if we listen to Him more and less to our own narcissitic voice.)

Do we know His exact Plan for us individually, or exactly how our respective lives play out? NO.

I'm sure others will be more articulte on answering your questions, or addressing faith issues.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   17:43:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Liberator (#83)

Do we know what God expects of us? YES.

I would almost universally agree with that. There still are those true moral delimenas in which we as mortal men must make a choice between two conflicing moral actions, aka as the lesser of evils. IMO that is why God has endowed man with both free will and a conscience. Men seem to be willing to more freely exercise the former over the latter. Humans can rationalize just about anything if they turn down the volume of that inner Godly voice.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:15:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: SOSO, liberator (#91)

I would almost universally agree with that. There still are those true moral delimenas in which we as mortal men must make a choice between two conflicing moral actions, aka as the lesser of evils. IMO that is why God has endowed man with both free will and a conscience. Men seem to be willing to more freely exercise the former over the latter. Humans can rationalize just about anything if they turn down the volume of that inner Godly voice.

Well yes. God created us with a brain housing group between our ears. He expects us to use that brain, to employ some logic in our decisions. Just think of some old toolie engineer not using his brain. Disaster!

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

If we who call on the Name of Jesus Christ address our actions in such a way then we can avoid the majority of the stupid things we do trying to rationalize stuff.

With that logical brain we have a conscience.

But again, God has some work He does first.

Ezekiel 36:

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.(KJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:24:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: redleghunter, liberator (#128)

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

That's fine when one or the other choice may bring glory to God. Unfortunately this falls apart when both choices do not bring glory to God as each will offend some of His expectations of us in one way or another.

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:30:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#130)

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

Are we back to the fundamental, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself"? Sharing the Gospel? Being Christ's light in the dark?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   23:45:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#136)

Are we back to the fundamental, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself"? Sharing the Gospel? Being Christ's light in the dark?

I don't think so. I am referring to a crisis of conscience within an individual when he has to make a choice when, all things equal, neither action is acceptable to what he believes God expects of him. A trite example might be whether or not a man should stand by and watch his wife and children be murdered by a nutso when the man had the capacity to save his family by killing the nutso as he commenced to do harm to the man's family.

God says thou shall not kill. Does He mean that in the absoulte in every circumstance? Or does He expect you to protect the lives of your family even if it meant that you had to kill to do so?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:54:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 139.

#142. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#139)

God says thou shall not kill. Does He mean that in the absoulte in every circumstance? Or does He expect you to protect the lives of your family even if it meant that you had to kill to do so?

Murder is not the same as Killing. The Almighty has hardwired us to defend ourselves AND family. Defending ourselves with lethal force is NOT premeditated murder. He know our heart in any case. JMO.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-16 00:11:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: SOSO, liberator (#139)

A trite example might be whether or not a man should stand by and watch his wife and children be murdered by a nutso when the man had the capacity to save his family by killing the nutso as he commenced to do harm to the man's family.

That's easy. If we have the capacity to stop the shedding of innocent blood and do nothing about it, then we are guilty of that shed blood. So, if killing the nut protects innocent life we have a moral right to defend.

Even in Luke 22 Jesus Christ allowed his disciples to have two swords between them for defense.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16 00:55:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: SOSO (#139)

God says thou shall not kill. Does He mean that in the absoulte in every circumstance? Or does He expect you to protect the lives of your family even if it meant that you had to kill to do so?

God said to the HEBREWS on Sinai: "You shall not kill". He never said that to the rest of us.

What he said to the rest of us was, first "Do not shed man's blood. He who sheds man's blood, by man his blood must be shed."

And then, Jesus, at the end, said that murderers do not enter the City. Murderers.

Distinctions of killing and murder, and vengeance, and trial procedures - those were all laws laid down specifically for God in the Constitution of the only state that he ever ruled directly as King: ancient Israel. And they were all predicated, all of them, on DO THIS, and YOU GET A FARM."

"You shall not kill", given at Sinai, given only to Hebrews at Sinai, along with a bunch of judicial laws and rules as to what killing was - the entirety of that - was a rule for that people, in that time, and it never applied to anybody else.

For the only reward ever offered to the Hebrews under the law - if they didn't kill, or commit adultery, and did everything as told at Sinai, was that they would live securely and prosperously and be fertile and have families on their own farm in Israel. That is it. That is ALL. God never said one word about the afterlife, or judgment, or life after death, or the soul, to the Hebrews at Sinai. The man who followed the WHOLE JEWISH LAW was not "saved" from anything. If he wasn't a Jew, he got nothing. There was no promise of anything, except for circumcised members of the Hebrew community, and the ONLY THING God EVER promised them for obeying the law of Sinai was a FARM. THAT is the Mosaic Covenant..."Do not kill (or any of the other stuff), and you'll live in peace on your own farm in Israel." THAT was the reward that God promised the Israelites.

He never said a thing - not one thing - about what happens to any Israelite's spirit or soul after that person dies. Nothing. The "Old Covenant" with the Jews, was a direct promise: obey these conditions and you get a farm, in this particular land, during your physical life. God never said one single word about life after death, or judgment, or going to Heaven, in the Old Covenant with the Jews. Nowhere in the Torah is there a whiff of it.

SO, you as a Gentile, watching your family being attacked, what law did God give to YOU?

He NEVER commanded YOU, or any ancestor you ever had, "Thou shall not kill." That law was for Jews. Nobody else.

He said "Do not shed man's blood", coupled with "He who sheds man's blood, by man his blood must be shed."

Is the man who is aiming to kill your family shedding man's blood? Yes. Then God has COMMANDED you to shed his blood. If you sit by and do nothing, you are not obeying God's command to punish - by bloodshed of the perpetrator - his crimes.

Further, at the last Supper Jesus told his disciples that they'd been free from attack during his life, so he had sent them out unarmed, but now that he was leaving they had to sell their extra cloak and buy a sword. Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves, with swords, so that they could defend themselves violently if need be. Jesus not only did not command his followers to not shed blood, he commanded his followers to arm themselves so that they would be ready TO shed blood, in their own defense, if necessary.

If somebody is attacking your family, you are the good shepherd of that family: God ordered all men to shed the blood of men who shed blood - bloodshed must be repaid by bloodshed: that is God's COMMANDMENT to Noah and mankind in general.

(He ruled Israel directly and had special laws for Israel, the reward for obedience of which was a farm, for Jews, in Israel - UNTIL Jesus pronounced the doom on Israel; now there's not even THAT.)(Oh, and the law of Israel merely provided a PROCEDURE for shedding the blood of those who shed blood, to be sure it is just.)

Finally, on the last page of the Bible Jesus twice said that MURDERERS do not enter the City of God after judgment, but are thrown into the fire.

MURDERERS are men who kill others without justification.

So, we have three pieces of non-Israelite reference: (1) Men must shed the blood of those men who shed blood - God, to Noah and his sons, speaking of MAN, not of just them.

(2)Jesus commanded his followers to arm to defend themselves.

(3) Jesus said twice that murderers - specifically - will be damned to the flames.

The law God gave the Israelites doesn't depart from these principles at all. It's useful to read it because of the greater detail that God gives to the people under his direct civil governance. But before we dive into that detail we have to stop short and remind ourselves over and over: NOTHING IN THE LAW OF MOSES EVER APPLIED TO ANYBODY BUT HEBREWS IN ISRAEL. Nothing. Not. One. Word.

Yes, there are laws in there that ALSO apply to the whole world, but God didn't reveal those laws TO the world THROUGH Israel. He revealed those laws either through Noah and his sons (remember, all of humanity was concentrated on that one boat, were all related, and all got the law delivered to them much more personally than the Hebrews did, sprawled out in a million-person camp at the foot of a mountain with only one or two guys speaking to him).

We have to remember that because otherwise we end up saying that we have to, or are PERMITTED to, say, burn witches at the stake because God commanded the Israelites to kill witches, so we know that he approves. But actually, God ONLY gave permission to the Israelites to do that, in his land. For US, he commanded not to shed blood, not to murder. Killing a witch if you're not in ancient Israel under God's direct rule is MURDER. The ancient Sanhedrin who ordered a witch killed were doing right. The medieval bishop's court that ordered a witch burnt, and everybody who burnt here, were murderers who themselves will likely be burnt in the lake of fire.

If you are going to pick up the tools of violence, you had damned well better UNDERSTAND God's law. Because you will be held accountable for that killing.

The law of Israel confuses people, much in the same way that Paul confuses people on some central facts. For that very reason, it is most important to read exactly what GOD said DIRECTLY, himself and through Jesus. THAT IS THE LAW.

And under THAT law, you MUST intervene to save your family, if you shed the would-be killer's blood, you have done justice. Of course, if you go off half cocked, make up a threat that's not there, and blow away a lost kid who wandered into your garage because you're a nutjob with a hairtrigger who imagines threats, then you're just a murderer and are going to the fire at judgment, probably. God sees hearts. If you're so overwrought that you fear everything and strike to kill, then you need to get help.

Because remember: COWARDS are also thrown into the fire. God damns COWARDS as well as killers. So, if you violently stop this killer from killing your family, and you have good reason - reason that would stand up to honest witnesses - to believe that you are saving their lives, defending them and yourself, then you have done right: who have shed the blood of the bloodshedder, you have been the good shepherd that has killed the lion.

But if you're unreasonably afraid, and just shoot somebody who is near your family on suspicion, because "you know how things go", then you're a murderer, and damned, or if he actually lives, you may be damned anyway, for shedding a man's life out of your own cowardice. Remember, God damns both murderers AND cowards to the fire: both.

Why cowards? Because he who would preserve his life will lose it. Men who make an idol out of biological life lack faith. They do not remember that flesh is grass, and death comes to all, but life goes on. We are spirits in a body, and the spirit is our life. We do what is right, and if that exposes us to danger such that we die, then we die.

But before we go out there shedding blood in our headstrong arrogance, because we have convinced ourselves that "we have the right" by our human legal logic, we have to remember that OUR human logic doesn't count for shit in the court of God, that God gave specific directions and commandments, and that man will be judged on God's law alone.

A bishop and 60 clergy of the courts of northern France tried and sentenced Joan of Arc to be burnt alive for carrying out the instructions she heard from God. They did this because she upset their political applecart and overthrew a government they preferred, with much loss of life among the conquerors they preferred. They used the legal system to extract revenge. They believed themselves in the right, for surely God would not favor the other side, and her voices could not be proven, so she must be a witch. And witches must die.

Except that if anybody but the ancient Israelite Sanhedrin killed a witch, the killers were murderers God will throw into the lake of fire. Nobody outside of ancient Israel had the right to kill any witch.

The problem for those clergymen who damned themselves to the flames by sending Joan of Arc to the flames is simple: they committed murder. They used their power to murder a woman they hated, on the grounds that she was a witch.

Had they tried her on the grounds that she killed people, they would have also have had to try their own reigning nobility and every soldier in their own army, and they did not think that way. God does, by HIS law, but those men didn't.

This is the problem of trying to force man's law down on top of God's. When it's done, it's ALWAYS to give men GREATER leeway than God gives, and it often plays around with those very things that God has warned will result in the fire of hell.

Men cannot authorize other men to get a pass out of hell for doing men's bidding. And when men are faced with the problem of those orders, God commands them to be courageous, and warns that cowardice buys hell just as surely as killing.

Sometimes to protect life, you have to kill. That's not murder under God's law, but it may well be under human law. Conversely, sometimes to obey human commanders and laws you are ordered to do things that you must defy in order to not break God's law. You can kill to stop the shedding of innocent blood, and if you can stop the shedding of innocent blood, you must do so - if you hang back and refuse to do it to protect your own reputation, you're a coward. But you don't have to throw your life away in a hopeless attack either.

Human laws of order do not trump God's law, and God gave you a head to use.

There should be no crisis of conscience when a man is watching his wife and children endangered by a nutso, because God's law is clear: you intervene, forcefully, and you stop the killing. If you don't because you think that God prohibits that, then you have bought a load of bull taught to you by idiot men.

God only said four things to YOU about killing: You are not to go out looking for shedding blood. You are not to murder. You ARE to defend yourself, and you ARE to shed the blood of those who shed blood. Don't be a coward.

That's it. That's the law.

Murderers and cowards are thrown into the fire. Defend yourself and punish killers. That's God's law. It's unambiguous. And if you take any part of God's specific law for the Jews in Israel and use that law, which does not apply to you, to try to override or weasel out of God's short, stern, clear law for YOU, you're doing it wrong.

And whoever tells you otherwise can't read.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-16 16:31:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 139.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com